Creamino Neckring
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xx_sheena_xx
- Posts: 748
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Re: Creamino Neckring
If he is less than 3 years old it is possible, could be a young male that has been DNA sexed
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xx_sheena_xx
- Posts: 748
- Joined: Sat May 03, 2008 11:02 pm
- Location: Victoria, Australia
Re: Creamino Neckring
Not sure, you will have to wait untill someone replies who knows about color mutations,
sorry
sorry
Re: Creamino Neckring
Hi Saud
I have a friend who has a creamino male which is pure yellow excepting the flying feathers of the wings and tail which are pure white, and this male displays an almost complete red ring. On the other hand if you look in psitaccula world you can find a creamino displaying a clear yellow mixed with white in patches throughout the body and a very light incomplete rose ring. So I think that the intensity of the red ring in creamino depends on the effect of the turquoise allele which is expressed very differently among birds (we had previously discussed about this topic when considering the possibility of the two psitacine layers). May be in very shoft creaminos (almost looking like albino birds) the red ring would not be appreciated, but I am not sure.
Cheers
Recio
I have a friend who has a creamino male which is pure yellow excepting the flying feathers of the wings and tail which are pure white, and this male displays an almost complete red ring. On the other hand if you look in psitaccula world you can find a creamino displaying a clear yellow mixed with white in patches throughout the body and a very light incomplete rose ring. So I think that the intensity of the red ring in creamino depends on the effect of the turquoise allele which is expressed very differently among birds (we had previously discussed about this topic when considering the possibility of the two psitacine layers). May be in very shoft creaminos (almost looking like albino birds) the red ring would not be appreciated, but I am not sure.
Cheers
Recio
Re: Creamino Neckring
Hi Saud;
In fact the neck ring is not red in creaminos but white and red, the white part corresponding to the black ring in wild animals which is not visible after the lost of melanin in creaminos. So I thinck that the whiteness of the ring area is not really related to the expression of a deeper or a ligther red ring. As I pointed before yellow deepness throughout the whole body/head seems to be a better factor for predicting the intensity of the red ring.
Probably regulation of the colouring of the ring is more complicated, otherwise how to explain the presence of a tricolour neckring (black, white and red) in turquoise males? Has anybody verified in this mutation if independent ring feathers are black, white and red, or if the same feather display 2 or all 3 colours? It is something simple to do but I never find the time to do it.
Cheers
In fact the neck ring is not red in creaminos but white and red, the white part corresponding to the black ring in wild animals which is not visible after the lost of melanin in creaminos. So I thinck that the whiteness of the ring area is not really related to the expression of a deeper or a ligther red ring. As I pointed before yellow deepness throughout the whole body/head seems to be a better factor for predicting the intensity of the red ring.
Probably regulation of the colouring of the ring is more complicated, otherwise how to explain the presence of a tricolour neckring (black, white and red) in turquoise males? Has anybody verified in this mutation if independent ring feathers are black, white and red, or if the same feather display 2 or all 3 colours? It is something simple to do but I never find the time to do it.
Cheers
Re: Creamino Neckring
I thought I seen a creamino with a brown ring, I will see if i can find it.
Re: Creamino Neckring
Hi,
Today is a cold rainny winter sunday in France, and finally I have the time to carefully look at my IRN's rings. Now I know that all the little feathers making the ring are yellow and only the tip of the feather displays the colour we see: red or black; there are not single feathers displaying both colours.
In blue turquoise mutation the ring is a bit different: it is a tricolour ring with black, red (almost orange) and white (from head to body). When looking at the little feathers composing the ring we can see that they are green in the deeper part (instead of yellow like in wild animals), and again it is only the tip of the feather which displays black, red-orange or white. In blue turquoise animals there is a partial lost of psitacine, and this is probably the reason that the inner part of the feathers look more greenish than yellowish. The fact that the white ring is not located following the black ring but after the red one means that the white ring is not due to a partial lost of melanin of the inner part of the black ring. Probably the white ring depends on a partial lost of the psitacine ring (red ring) at the outer part and his width depends on the degree of expression of turquoise in this particular bird
Let's go on: in lutino birds there is a red and white ring but the white ring is placed on the upper part (depends on melanin mutation) contrary to the white ring in turquoise birds which is at the lowest part (depends on psytacine mutation).
In pallids we find a thin black ring close to the red ring. I have not found good pics to state if there is or not a thin white ring at the upper part, close to the black ring. If it was the case we could expect to find a 4 ring colouring neckring in rainbow IRN: from head to body:
1. White corresponding to partial mutation of melanin (external part of black ring) due to pallid mutation.
2. Black corresponding to the inner part of the non mutated black ring.
3. Red corresponding to the inner part of the non mutated red ring.
4. White corresponding to partial mutation of psitacine (external part of red ring) due to turquoise mutation.
Has anybody a good pic of the ring in rainbows IRN? Marc: I know you have a rainbow male, could you post a pic of him?
As always .... waiting for comments.
Regards
Recio
Today is a cold rainny winter sunday in France, and finally I have the time to carefully look at my IRN's rings. Now I know that all the little feathers making the ring are yellow and only the tip of the feather displays the colour we see: red or black; there are not single feathers displaying both colours.
In blue turquoise mutation the ring is a bit different: it is a tricolour ring with black, red (almost orange) and white (from head to body). When looking at the little feathers composing the ring we can see that they are green in the deeper part (instead of yellow like in wild animals), and again it is only the tip of the feather which displays black, red-orange or white. In blue turquoise animals there is a partial lost of psitacine, and this is probably the reason that the inner part of the feathers look more greenish than yellowish. The fact that the white ring is not located following the black ring but after the red one means that the white ring is not due to a partial lost of melanin of the inner part of the black ring. Probably the white ring depends on a partial lost of the psitacine ring (red ring) at the outer part and his width depends on the degree of expression of turquoise in this particular bird
Let's go on: in lutino birds there is a red and white ring but the white ring is placed on the upper part (depends on melanin mutation) contrary to the white ring in turquoise birds which is at the lowest part (depends on psytacine mutation).
In pallids we find a thin black ring close to the red ring. I have not found good pics to state if there is or not a thin white ring at the upper part, close to the black ring. If it was the case we could expect to find a 4 ring colouring neckring in rainbow IRN: from head to body:
1. White corresponding to partial mutation of melanin (external part of black ring) due to pallid mutation.
2. Black corresponding to the inner part of the non mutated black ring.
3. Red corresponding to the inner part of the non mutated red ring.
4. White corresponding to partial mutation of psitacine (external part of red ring) due to turquoise mutation.
Has anybody a good pic of the ring in rainbows IRN? Marc: I know you have a rainbow male, could you post a pic of him?
As always .... waiting for comments.
Regards
Recio
Re: Creamino Neckring
Hi Saud,
This question was in part answered in another post:
http://www.indianringneck.com/forum/vie ... f=1&t=8279
The part concerning the expression of the psitacines in the ring is:
The red colour of the ring in lutinos is far more marked than in creamino. So, to say that lutino colouring is just the addition of creamino and acqua seems too simplistic to me. One possibility would be that red psittacines were derived from yellow psittacines, and thus, the increase in yellow psittacine disponibility in the follicule of lutino IRN (with respect to the creamino IRN) would increase the synthesis of the red psittacine. In this sens we should remark that, in other species of parrots, red mutations occur always in yellow patched areas, meaning that at least one part of the mechanisms involved in such a synthesis is common to both psittacines. Unfortunately the metabolic pathway of psittacines synthesis (there are at least 5 different psittacines) is unknown.
If looking to other mutations displaying a loss of melanin, as pallid or dilute, you will notice that they also have a less marked red ring. Why is this? These are mutations supossed to act only on melanin synthesis. I think that it is similar for creamino respective of turquoise: less melanin induces a less marked production of psittacines, and thus a less marked red ring. Something else: as I wrote above the red feathers of the ring are not really wholy red: it is only the tip which is red and they are deep inside between green and yellowish depending on mutations, that is they also own melanin. What I want to outline is that in a single feather follicule, while developing, there is a synthesis of psittacines at the same time that occurs the transfer of melanin.
Unlike carotens, psittacines are not absorbed from food and they can not be found in blood samples: they are locally synthesized at the feather follicule. It is also at the feather follicule that melanin granules pass from melanosomes in melanocytes to the growing feather. So, in my opinion, there must be an interaction in the metabolic pathways of synthesis/transfer of both pigments, something like a trophic action.
Coming back to the possible 4 rings (white, black, red and white) in rainbow IRN it will be really difficult to notice because in this bird the areas closed to the ring are not heavily pigmented and thus the external white rings are not easy to remark. Nevertheless in rainbows like in pallids the ring seems thinner than in other mutations and this makes sense to the theory.
So, in abstract: two layers of psittacine with different regulation, two layers of melanin (also with different regulation) and an interaction in the synthesis of both psittacines (restricted layer?) and melanin (background melanin?) at the feather follicule.
Too many hypothesis and not enough answers...
What do you think, Saud?
Recio
This question was in part answered in another post:
http://www.indianringneck.com/forum/vie ... f=1&t=8279
The part concerning the expression of the psitacines in the ring is:
The red colour of the ring in lutinos is far more marked than in creamino. So, to say that lutino colouring is just the addition of creamino and acqua seems too simplistic to me. One possibility would be that red psittacines were derived from yellow psittacines, and thus, the increase in yellow psittacine disponibility in the follicule of lutino IRN (with respect to the creamino IRN) would increase the synthesis of the red psittacine. In this sens we should remark that, in other species of parrots, red mutations occur always in yellow patched areas, meaning that at least one part of the mechanisms involved in such a synthesis is common to both psittacines. Unfortunately the metabolic pathway of psittacines synthesis (there are at least 5 different psittacines) is unknown.
If looking to other mutations displaying a loss of melanin, as pallid or dilute, you will notice that they also have a less marked red ring. Why is this? These are mutations supossed to act only on melanin synthesis. I think that it is similar for creamino respective of turquoise: less melanin induces a less marked production of psittacines, and thus a less marked red ring. Something else: as I wrote above the red feathers of the ring are not really wholy red: it is only the tip which is red and they are deep inside between green and yellowish depending on mutations, that is they also own melanin. What I want to outline is that in a single feather follicule, while developing, there is a synthesis of psittacines at the same time that occurs the transfer of melanin.
Unlike carotens, psittacines are not absorbed from food and they can not be found in blood samples: they are locally synthesized at the feather follicule. It is also at the feather follicule that melanin granules pass from melanosomes in melanocytes to the growing feather. So, in my opinion, there must be an interaction in the metabolic pathways of synthesis/transfer of both pigments, something like a trophic action.
Coming back to the possible 4 rings (white, black, red and white) in rainbow IRN it will be really difficult to notice because in this bird the areas closed to the ring are not heavily pigmented and thus the external white rings are not easy to remark. Nevertheless in rainbows like in pallids the ring seems thinner than in other mutations and this makes sense to the theory.
So, in abstract: two layers of psittacine with different regulation, two layers of melanin (also with different regulation) and an interaction in the synthesis of both psittacines (restricted layer?) and melanin (background melanin?) at the feather follicule.
Too many hypothesis and not enough answers...
What do you think, Saud?
Recio