Orange ring
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Orange ring
Hi all, I have been looking through some images of turquoise IRN and havnt been able to find any with orange rings, very distinct from the normal rose colour. Is it normal for the turquoise to have an orange ring or not, maybe my google skills just arnt that good, any ideas?
Re: Orange ring
Do you have a picture of the bird in question?
Re: Orange ring
I have a turquoise with an orange ring and have been wondering about the same thing. I have tried to find some pictures of other mauve turquoise(blue) cocks, as I thought it might have something to do with that. I'm also waiting for the cock to finish raising chicks so that he can start moulting, as I suspect it might also be the sun / fading. You will pick up an orange ring in the fallow mutations, so it was strange for me to see it in this cock.
Re: Orange ring
I got it from my uncle jack who had about 6 of them in the same aviary all with the orange ring, but I've looked online and have only seen one site that had photos on it, and Johan s is the only other photo, I was told that only the true turquoise have the orange ring.
I have no idea about it cos I havnt been able to find more info on it, I'm hoping one of the more experienced guys on here will be able to help out.
I can pm you a photo cos I don't know how to upload a photo onto here.
I have no idea about it cos I havnt been able to find more info on it, I'm hoping one of the more experienced guys on here will be able to help out.
I can pm you a photo cos I don't know how to upload a photo onto here.
Re: Orange ring
I don't think it has anything to do with the purity of the turquoise. I have mostly found it curious, but haven't investigated in great detail. Will wait for the bird to moult to so if the colour is maintained, and keep on looking for some more mauve turquoise(blue) specimens.
Recio will be able to tell more, but it might also be a transition between the full expression of psittacin (as rose/red) in the neck ring to the complete removal of psittacin (only black and white left), i.e. their might be a transition from red to orange to white which is caused by the parBlue mutation. Perhaps this could help us quantify the values / percentage psittacin expression that was hypothesised.
However, unlike the case for fallows where melanin production is altered to cause the change in colour in the neck ring, it seems from this bird that melanocyte functionality was unchanged. That leaves us with percentage psittacin expressed by the parBlue.
I'm hoping Recio jumps on this topic.
Recio will be able to tell more, but it might also be a transition between the full expression of psittacin (as rose/red) in the neck ring to the complete removal of psittacin (only black and white left), i.e. their might be a transition from red to orange to white which is caused by the parBlue mutation. Perhaps this could help us quantify the values / percentage psittacin expression that was hypothesised.
However, unlike the case for fallows where melanin production is altered to cause the change in colour in the neck ring, it seems from this bird that melanocyte functionality was unchanged. That leaves us with percentage psittacin expressed by the parBlue.
I'm hoping Recio jumps on this topic.
Re: Orange ring
Yeh hopefully they can shed some light on this topic,
He is six years old, bred twice with only one baby carrying the orange ring. ( out of 5 babies)
He is six years old, bred twice with only one baby carrying the orange ring. ( out of 5 babies)
Re: Orange ring
Youngspud
Were the rest of the chicks all Turquoise/TurquoiseBlue? what was it paired to? if non-turquoise hen, then you might just have a DF Turquoise aka homozygous turquoise
see this thread with pics from Willy. might help.
http://www.indianringneck.com/forum/vie ... 26&t=16114
Were the rest of the chicks all Turquoise/TurquoiseBlue? what was it paired to? if non-turquoise hen, then you might just have a DF Turquoise aka homozygous turquoise
see this thread with pics from Willy. might help.
http://www.indianringneck.com/forum/vie ... 26&t=16114
Re: Orange ring
I didn't have it when it bred but I believe it was paired to a normal blue, majority were turquoiseblue and one being the same as the father. So I think you are correct, would it be possible for the orange ring to show up in another colour or would it only show in the turquoise?
Re: Orange ring
Good question. We are still in infancy with the Parblue Genes and there's a lot to learn.
Discussing on this forum can help us all understand better this multitude of possibilites Parblues gives us.
Hope that Recio & Willy can help us out.
Ben
Re: Orange ring
Hi Johan, Ben and Youngspud,
Willy and me we do not agree in the basics of parblues genotypes ... but we do not agree ... very friendly and respectfully !!! Time will tell us ...
About the orange ring in phenotypic turquoise IRN: the answer is inside the feather ... but I know that Johan preferes to learn fishing than just having a fish ... so .. this is the cue : take an orange feather from the ring of the turquoise bird and a red feather from the ring of a wild IRN, put them side by side, take a pic, a bit of brainstorming ... and the answer is there.
I would have done it myself but my homozygous phenotypic turquoise died two weeks ago and I do not own any other parblue with the orange ring.
Regards
Recio
Willy and me we do not agree in the basics of parblues genotypes ... but we do not agree ... very friendly and respectfully !!! Time will tell us ...
About the orange ring in phenotypic turquoise IRN: the answer is inside the feather ... but I know that Johan preferes to learn fishing than just having a fish ... so .. this is the cue : take an orange feather from the ring of the turquoise bird and a red feather from the ring of a wild IRN, put them side by side, take a pic, a bit of brainstorming ... and the answer is there.
I would have done it myself but my homozygous phenotypic turquoise died two weeks ago and I do not own any other parblue with the orange ring.
Regards
Recio
Re: Orange ring
Recio, that is a pretty broad statement. The genotypes are what they are, what I disagree with is your trying to determine the genotype from looking only at the heterozygous phenotype. I will always insist that it is the homozygous phenotype which will always differentiate. Look at what happened when nobody bothered to breed and really look at the full expression of these Parblues. Bastiaan's book is an glaring example of this. Otherwise yes, "we do not agree ... very friendly and respectfully !"Recio wrote:Willy and me we do not agree in the basics of parblues genotypes
Another example is the Deep and Dark mutations which were not differentiated until the DF birds of each were compared. That comparison is essential to sort out what the SA 'dark' Blue birds are. Lots and lots of speculation but it seems nobody is breeding the DF birds.
Re: Orange ring
Hey Recio, sorry to hear about the loss of the bird!Recio wrote:About the orange ring in phenotypic turquoise IRN: the answer is inside the feather ... but I know that Johan preferes to learn fishing than just having a fish ... so .. this is the cue : take an orange feather from the ring of the turquoise bird and a red feather from the ring of a wild IRN, put them side by side, take a pic, a bit of brainstorming ... and the answer is there.
I would have done it myself but my homozygous phenotypic turquoise died two weeks ago and I do not own any other parblue with the orange ring.
Let's make an exception this time and just give me the fish today. I don't have access to the right feathers at this stage, and will starve from hunger before I get those feathers.
Re: Orange ring
Hi Willy,
Let's narrow my "genetic statement":
1. I think that Emerald is an autosomic incomplete dominant mutation. You think that it is a recessive mutation belonging to the parblue family, that is an allele of Blue like Turquoise or Indigo.
2. I think that there are more parblue alleles than Turquoise and Indigo. You think that there are only two proven parblue alleles: Turquoise and Indigo.
As I wrote ... time will tell us ...
Hi Johan,
If you look at a red feather from the ring of an adult male IRN you will notice that the only really red part is the tip of the feather, inside you will find orange and inner inside yellow-green. If you look at an orange feather from a turquoise male you will find that orange is only present at the tip of the feather and inside you will find yellow-green and inner inside a bluish colour. What does it mean? It means that there is a gradient in the production of psittacins with the highest concentration near the tip of the feathers. This feature is not specific to the ring but it also appears in most other feathers: the highest psittacin concentration is always in the feather tip.
In Turquoise birds there is always the same gradient in psittacin production inside the feather but with a lower amount in both yellow and red psittacin. This results in the apparent change in colour we see in the ring, since there is a lower amount of red psittacin produced and what we see as "first layer" (orange colour at the tip of the feather) in Turquoise birds is the equivalent of the "second layer" of feather colour in wild birds.
I hope the idea is clear ... although my English isn't.
Recio
Let's narrow my "genetic statement":
1. I think that Emerald is an autosomic incomplete dominant mutation. You think that it is a recessive mutation belonging to the parblue family, that is an allele of Blue like Turquoise or Indigo.
2. I think that there are more parblue alleles than Turquoise and Indigo. You think that there are only two proven parblue alleles: Turquoise and Indigo.
As I wrote ... time will tell us ...
Hi Johan,
If you look at a red feather from the ring of an adult male IRN you will notice that the only really red part is the tip of the feather, inside you will find orange and inner inside yellow-green. If you look at an orange feather from a turquoise male you will find that orange is only present at the tip of the feather and inside you will find yellow-green and inner inside a bluish colour. What does it mean? It means that there is a gradient in the production of psittacins with the highest concentration near the tip of the feathers. This feature is not specific to the ring but it also appears in most other feathers: the highest psittacin concentration is always in the feather tip.
In Turquoise birds there is always the same gradient in psittacin production inside the feather but with a lower amount in both yellow and red psittacin. This results in the apparent change in colour we see in the ring, since there is a lower amount of red psittacin produced and what we see as "first layer" (orange colour at the tip of the feather) in Turquoise birds is the equivalent of the "second layer" of feather colour in wild birds.
I hope the idea is clear ... although my English isn't.
Recio
Re: Orange ring
Hi Recio,
I understand perfectly what you mean, thank you! So we will have a gradient on a graph for a normal red bird, and the turquoise bird will have exactly the same gradient, but the concentration line will actually be sitting lower than for the wildtype.
I think similar things happen for esp. the edged mutation, but also adm pied. My train of thought have always been that the melanin concentration starts out strong at the beginning of feather production, and then somehow the process runs out of "juice" and near the feather bard we see a much lower concentration, even sometimes a complete lack of melanin.
I understand perfectly what you mean, thank you! So we will have a gradient on a graph for a normal red bird, and the turquoise bird will have exactly the same gradient, but the concentration line will actually be sitting lower than for the wildtype.
I think similar things happen for esp. the edged mutation, but also adm pied. My train of thought have always been that the melanin concentration starts out strong at the beginning of feather production, and then somehow the process runs out of "juice" and near the feather bard we see a much lower concentration, even sometimes a complete lack of melanin.
Re: Orange ring
Hi Johan,
Feathers are placed like the tiles of a roof : we can only see the feathers tip ... so .... why to spend energy in synthesizing pigments that will not be seen? ... so pigments are deposited following a gradient with a maximal concentration in the outer part. But pigments also have other functions and depending the feather type/function the distribution of pigments can change. Ex: melanin is also a pigment able to strength feather structure and feathers which need endurance, like wing flying feathers, show an uniform deposition of the pigment all along the feather.
Regards
Recio
Feathers are placed like the tiles of a roof : we can only see the feathers tip ... so .... why to spend energy in synthesizing pigments that will not be seen? ... so pigments are deposited following a gradient with a maximal concentration in the outer part. But pigments also have other functions and depending the feather type/function the distribution of pigments can change. Ex: melanin is also a pigment able to strength feather structure and feathers which need endurance, like wing flying feathers, show an uniform deposition of the pigment all along the feather.
Regards
Recio