Hi guys, haven't been around for a while, hope you are all ok!
Just thought I'd update you on how things are going with Dudes. I am noticing a fast increase in his bravery. He is now accompanying me to different rooms (on his tabletop perch) and he is getting used to the kitchen, and more recently travelling upstairs with me when I have a bath. I thought I'd try this as he is becoming so curious about his environment that I daren't leave him on his own for fear of what might happen to him. He now flies the floor, something he never did before. It started off going down there to retrieve dropped food, now he is going there just for the hell of it, waddling around the floor having a look round, chewing on stuff he has no business beaking. I am frightened if I leave him alone he will chew wires and leather furniture and just about everything really. He is also climbing up his birdy boing and taking chunks out of the artexed ceiling and when he's on the curtain rail now he will eat the coving, which I know some of you will sympathise with!! So I have stuck a load of newspaper over the curtain rail which has worked quite nicely as he hasn't gone there since, but looks bloody awful!
So instead of leaving him to his own devices or having to send him home, I take him with me in the bathroom. I take some treats with me to make the time up there a bit less boring for him, and end up with bits of walnut and sunflower seed cases in my bath water lol! I have still yet to get him used to the shower perch my fella made for him.
His biting hasn't changed, and I don't know if any of you guys have seen this video on YouTube, but this is exactly what Dudes is like if you let him on you. I notice Imran has commented on this!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1wfjLwV1os
So I am now trying calling him to me with a food lure and stuffing it in his beak quick before he can bite. And extending the time before he gets the treat.
Also I wonder if anyone could advise on my training techniques? I am trying to get him to drop a ball in a cup. He doesn't quite seem to grasp the idea is just to pick it up, and drop it in. He flings it around like no-ones business, and I follow it with the cup to catch it, and when I do I treat. I thought this method would eventually sink in to him that when the ball goes in the cup, he gets the treat. He hasn't quite realised this yet and after only a few times he is starting to really get aggressive with the ball, lunging at it and chucking it around making it impossible to catch. I obviously don't want to train him while he's being an @r$£ so I stop and try again later. But as soon as he now sees the ball he goes for it! What am I doing wrong? He is being trained on the table by the way, not a perch-I tried changing tack and did it on the perch and he goes for the ball and my fingers so not sure how to progress from here. Any suggestions would be great!
Update And Questions :)
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Re: Update And Questions :)
Hi Loo,
Since you say your bird is biting just like the one in this video, I figured I would comment on the video. BTW, I'm never going to comment on You Tube, but if this guy isn't on our Forum, somebody should give him a heads-up!
Overall, as I watched the video, I was thinking "Oh God, Make It Stop!!!" First, it looks like the bird is treating the hand as a chew toy, not as a target of aggression. That's good, but she has the wrong idea. Second, the human is making no effort at all to make his hand less of a target. Instead of presenting the hand all points-up (knuckles, fingertips) he should be flattening it, maybe having the bird on the edge rather than broad surface of the hand, and presenting areas less easy to grab. Also the bird should be getting *something* else to focus on. I realize the presentation may be so we can get a good view of the activity, but if that's happening in normal interactions, it should stop right now.
Another thing I really must say is that the human should not just take the bites. He should prevent, distract, or not hold the biting bird. As can be clearly seen, the bird is absorbed in the activity, and we know the bird isn't going to pursue an unsatisfying activity on her own. So, she is getting something out of biting the human. The human, being passive, really isn't part of this equation as a partner. He is just an object, where he should be a partner, teaching the bird she is not going to be permitted this activity.
My bird, when held, will make investigatory nibbles on my hand and arm. If he were let to continue past a mild beaking, I am sure he would develop this kind of intensity. I have experimented in letting him go, to see what he does, and I see he will actually remove a chunk of me and eat it. When I see his mild beaking starting to get more focussed, I stop him with distraction. If he sneaks a bite in on me, I do jerk my hand upward and he must fly off. It's hard for me to not react like that, and honestly, I don't mind shaking up his world as an immediate consequence of biting. Yep, that's a negative training method, sorry.
Why does the bird do this, the bird in the video, and my bird? Honestly, I think they are not aggressive. I think they are just messing around with the objects available to them, and our flesh is one of those objects. I think they do not differentiate between human parts and non human objects simply because they have not been taught to leave the human flesh alone. As a side, I do think there may be a need for meat in the bird's diet, if the bird is so willing to consume human skin.
The question now becomes, how do we teach the bird this is not acceptable?
I don't know. I have not really tried. My main focus in training my bird has really just been to lead him to learn how to use his body and interact with his environment in a parrot way. Once he masters being himself, perhaps we will work on cute tricks, but they are so not a priority in this house. The most I felt he needed to know was how to live in a cage, come out of the cage, go back to the cage, take treats, step up, and fly to the hand. Fly away and transfer to another human were bonus.
Perhaps our Super Trainers here will respond to the question of how to teach the bird certain things are off limits.
Since you say your bird is biting just like the one in this video, I figured I would comment on the video. BTW, I'm never going to comment on You Tube, but if this guy isn't on our Forum, somebody should give him a heads-up!
Overall, as I watched the video, I was thinking "Oh God, Make It Stop!!!" First, it looks like the bird is treating the hand as a chew toy, not as a target of aggression. That's good, but she has the wrong idea. Second, the human is making no effort at all to make his hand less of a target. Instead of presenting the hand all points-up (knuckles, fingertips) he should be flattening it, maybe having the bird on the edge rather than broad surface of the hand, and presenting areas less easy to grab. Also the bird should be getting *something* else to focus on. I realize the presentation may be so we can get a good view of the activity, but if that's happening in normal interactions, it should stop right now.
Another thing I really must say is that the human should not just take the bites. He should prevent, distract, or not hold the biting bird. As can be clearly seen, the bird is absorbed in the activity, and we know the bird isn't going to pursue an unsatisfying activity on her own. So, she is getting something out of biting the human. The human, being passive, really isn't part of this equation as a partner. He is just an object, where he should be a partner, teaching the bird she is not going to be permitted this activity.
My bird, when held, will make investigatory nibbles on my hand and arm. If he were let to continue past a mild beaking, I am sure he would develop this kind of intensity. I have experimented in letting him go, to see what he does, and I see he will actually remove a chunk of me and eat it. When I see his mild beaking starting to get more focussed, I stop him with distraction. If he sneaks a bite in on me, I do jerk my hand upward and he must fly off. It's hard for me to not react like that, and honestly, I don't mind shaking up his world as an immediate consequence of biting. Yep, that's a negative training method, sorry.
Why does the bird do this, the bird in the video, and my bird? Honestly, I think they are not aggressive. I think they are just messing around with the objects available to them, and our flesh is one of those objects. I think they do not differentiate between human parts and non human objects simply because they have not been taught to leave the human flesh alone. As a side, I do think there may be a need for meat in the bird's diet, if the bird is so willing to consume human skin.
The question now becomes, how do we teach the bird this is not acceptable?
I don't know. I have not really tried. My main focus in training my bird has really just been to lead him to learn how to use his body and interact with his environment in a parrot way. Once he masters being himself, perhaps we will work on cute tricks, but they are so not a priority in this house. The most I felt he needed to know was how to live in a cage, come out of the cage, go back to the cage, take treats, step up, and fly to the hand. Fly away and transfer to another human were bonus.
Perhaps our Super Trainers here will respond to the question of how to teach the bird certain things are off limits.
-MissK
Re: Update And Questions :)
Welcome back, Loo.
That explains a lot!
I agree with missks assessment, you are a chew toy. It looks painful though!
I have rarely experienced hard beaking, telling Sapphire that hurts and looking hurt without moving my hand was enough for her to be more gentle with me.
She beaked Daves ear really hard and got a massive reaction and noises that caused her to fly away. She thought that was worth repeating, so if you go for dropping your hand don't make a song and dance about it.
I would try handing him chewable toys like yucca or balsa when he starts chewing you. I tend to explain everything to my birds like they are kids "no, I don't want you to eat the pool table, eat this instead. Good girl" kind of thing. I'm not sure it's quickly reducing the behaviour, but she seems to be eating the pool table less regularly.
About the trick you are working on. If he gets excited about the ball like that, don't use that ball until you have a strong training habit. In the early stages it is best that props are only associated with training. I've been using a ring that isn't a very fun object to chew and Sapphire drops it very quickly (I haven't really tried to teach her this trick, she chased Nila away when he was running through his ring tricks so I tried handing her the ring). If he throws stuff around, don't get up immediately to retrieve it or the game you are playing well become you fetching in his eyes. If you have multiples of the toy, hand it to him and try again. If you don't, then cueing another trick that doesn't require the prop and doing that one before you fetch could be a good way to focus him back on earning his treats.
Does he understand the concept of tricks for a reward already?
I hope that helps a bit....
That explains a lot!
I agree with missks assessment, you are a chew toy. It looks painful though!
I have rarely experienced hard beaking, telling Sapphire that hurts and looking hurt without moving my hand was enough for her to be more gentle with me.
She beaked Daves ear really hard and got a massive reaction and noises that caused her to fly away. She thought that was worth repeating, so if you go for dropping your hand don't make a song and dance about it.
I would try handing him chewable toys like yucca or balsa when he starts chewing you. I tend to explain everything to my birds like they are kids "no, I don't want you to eat the pool table, eat this instead. Good girl" kind of thing. I'm not sure it's quickly reducing the behaviour, but she seems to be eating the pool table less regularly.
About the trick you are working on. If he gets excited about the ball like that, don't use that ball until you have a strong training habit. In the early stages it is best that props are only associated with training. I've been using a ring that isn't a very fun object to chew and Sapphire drops it very quickly (I haven't really tried to teach her this trick, she chased Nila away when he was running through his ring tricks so I tried handing her the ring). If he throws stuff around, don't get up immediately to retrieve it or the game you are playing well become you fetching in his eyes. If you have multiples of the toy, hand it to him and try again. If you don't, then cueing another trick that doesn't require the prop and doing that one before you fetch could be a good way to focus him back on earning his treats.
Does he understand the concept of tricks for a reward already?
I hope that helps a bit....
Re: Update And Questions :)
Hi MissK, Claire 
MissK- I totally agree with you, I will never allow Dudes to chew me like this, he is obviously doing the whole 'I'm not showing any kind of reaction' thing, which once upon a time I tried too, to see if it would show him biting doesn't get him anywhere..I can tell you this method does not work! He just sat there and bit and bit and bit. It is something I could never grit my teeth through as it hurts too damn much so now I just calmly remove him with his step up perch. He will even try to get to me through my clothes.
Claire- Thanks for the welcome I use your approach when Dudes does something I don't want, I know there are people that tell you not to tell them no, but I do, they aren't stupid creatures so surely must pick up the fact that whatever they just did, the human didn't like.
About the trick, I tried using this fuzzy felt kind of ball but he doesn't like the feel of it, the only rings I have are too big for the cup I'm using. The ball I was using was the one in my avatar, minus the bell as it takes him minutes to chew it out. However it is easily 'flingable' and rolls under the furniture which, as you say, can get us both frustrated as I have to stop training to go fetch it. I wonder what I could use instead?
I'm sure he does understand the concept, but maybe its me and my props that need adjustments.
MissK- I totally agree with you, I will never allow Dudes to chew me like this, he is obviously doing the whole 'I'm not showing any kind of reaction' thing, which once upon a time I tried too, to see if it would show him biting doesn't get him anywhere..I can tell you this method does not work! He just sat there and bit and bit and bit. It is something I could never grit my teeth through as it hurts too damn much so now I just calmly remove him with his step up perch. He will even try to get to me through my clothes.
Claire- Thanks for the welcome
I use your approach when Dudes does something I don't want, I know there are people that tell you not to tell them no, but I do, they aren't stupid creatures so surely must pick up the fact that whatever they just did, the human didn't like.About the trick, I tried using this fuzzy felt kind of ball but he doesn't like the feel of it, the only rings I have are too big for the cup I'm using. The ball I was using was the one in my avatar, minus the bell as it takes him minutes to chew it out. However it is easily 'flingable' and rolls under the furniture which, as you say, can get us both frustrated as I have to stop training to go fetch it. I wonder what I could use instead?
I'm sure he does understand the concept, but maybe its me and my props that need adjustments.
Loo
Re: Update And Questions :)
How can our birds know that biting hurts if we do not tell them?
Re: Update And Questions :)
I don't know if I explained myself well again! I don't place any emphasis on saying no and I speak in my normal voice when I explain to the birds that something they are doing is not acceptable. Basically it probably sounds like nothing to them and is not the part of the sequence that changes the behaviour. I'm hoping it will eventually cue her to come to me to get the toy, but it really is otherwise superfluous.
We breifly experimented with telling Nila off loudly and successfully trained him to eat cornices when he wants attention! And Dave taught Sapphire that he will make a song and dance on the cue of chomping down on his ear... unless you pair up the telling off with a punishment, it is meaningless. Even with a punishment it is still a way to get attention, therefore likely to be ineffective with my guys anyway.
We breifly experimented with telling Nila off loudly and successfully trained him to eat cornices when he wants attention! And Dave taught Sapphire that he will make a song and dance on the cue of chomping down on his ear... unless you pair up the telling off with a punishment, it is meaningless. Even with a punishment it is still a way to get attention, therefore likely to be ineffective with my guys anyway.
Re: Update And Questions :)
On You tube there is a clip of a Macaw repeating the word "Naughty!" in a dead pan of a voice l thought it was really funny but I still think making disapproving noises and negative feed back such as walking out of the room works well it did for Billie, she knew when she bit me that it hurt.
Re: Update And Questions :)
I took a look at myself this evening while I was telling Rocky I didn't want him to bite me. He was braving himself up because he accidentally petted my finger with his head. It really looked like a situation of him unexpectedly finding himself in uncertain territory. For Rocky, uncertainty seems to mean beak first and ask questions later.
SO, the words I found myself using were "No", "I don't want you to bite me", "Not that, this", etc.
BUT, what means a bit more to Ringnecks, I think, was my body language. I also was turning my finger (the bite target) and just such a little backing it away. He did not really pursue it, so I had the chance to stuff treats in his mouth for the behaviour of "not biting right now". I also froze whatever else I was doing with my body (certainly wasn't paying attention to the rest of my body, so who knows what I was doing) and gave the bird my fullest attention. Not like I wasn't paying attention to him before, but as I was telling him "no", etc, I was no longer aware of the other birds in the room, for example, or the fact I'm still wearing my snow boots since 7 this morning, or that the dogs want to come out of the bedroom, etc.
I don't know if this is any great breakthrough in me understanding how to convey "don't do that" to my bird, but it was food for thought tonight.
**Also, for whoever cares, my semi-scientific snowfall assessment finds 8 inches in my back yard.
SO, the words I found myself using were "No", "I don't want you to bite me", "Not that, this", etc.
BUT, what means a bit more to Ringnecks, I think, was my body language. I also was turning my finger (the bite target) and just such a little backing it away. He did not really pursue it, so I had the chance to stuff treats in his mouth for the behaviour of "not biting right now". I also froze whatever else I was doing with my body (certainly wasn't paying attention to the rest of my body, so who knows what I was doing) and gave the bird my fullest attention. Not like I wasn't paying attention to him before, but as I was telling him "no", etc, I was no longer aware of the other birds in the room, for example, or the fact I'm still wearing my snow boots since 7 this morning, or that the dogs want to come out of the bedroom, etc.
I don't know if this is any great breakthrough in me understanding how to convey "don't do that" to my bird, but it was food for thought tonight.
**Also, for whoever cares, my semi-scientific snowfall assessment finds 8 inches in my back yard.
-MissK
Re: Update And Questions :)
That's a lot of snow! It's stinking hot here!
My observation of the day is, when Nila didn't want Sapphire to nibble on his foot anymore, he flew away and she stayed where she was and chewed something else.... Maybe we can learn from that.
And her beak is as big as his head! Watching them kissing scared me!
My observation of the day is, when Nila didn't want Sapphire to nibble on his foot anymore, he flew away and she stayed where she was and chewed something else.... Maybe we can learn from that.
And her beak is as big as his head! Watching them kissing scared me!
Re: Update And Questions :)
Yes MissK our body language comes into the "NO!" equation, and l think constant dialogue helps too. I played on Biilie's emptions by whimpering when she bit me besides telling her "That Hurt!", as l said how do they know their biting hurts unless we tell them, keeping a blank face and steady hand and pretending nothing has happened, that is alright for those who believe it.
Yes you in the North of USA are have it rough just as those in Australia l prefer the cold to the heat but here in blighty it is 4 centrigade just right.
Yes you in the North of USA are have it rough just as those in Australia l prefer the cold to the heat but here in blighty it is 4 centrigade just right.