2 Mutations - How can you tell?? Pied X Opaline &

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Ring0Neck
Posts: 1714
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 2:24 am
Location: Brisbane QLD AUS

2 Mutations - How can you tell?? Pied X Opaline &

Post by Ring0Neck »

Hi Guys,

Here's another one for you:

BIRD 1 - I have a dominant pied that is also an opaline.
now, breeders will always look for genetic features to confirm that the bird in question is indeed of that mutation. EG: dominant pied should have: Beak/Feet: Red upper and lower mandible; pinkish feet, light nails. - because this is an opaline also it has: Beak/Feet: Red upper mandible, black lower mandible; grey feet, grey nails.

BIRD 2 - I have a pastelBlue buttercup also aqua - same story here, eyes should be dark red with translucent iris, pinkish feet, light nails. instread it has the aqua characteristics: Beak/Feet: Red upper mandible, black lower mandible; grey feet, black nails.
Eyes: Black with yellowish iris. - with this bird i classified it as split buttercup (althought it should be a buttercup) until i noticed same issues with the pied having 2 mutations in 1.

How do you distinguish or confirm that the bird in question is actually of the mutation, worse still it is not possible to nest identify the young,

if someone has any input of any kind please comment. even if you disagree with me.
Fah
Posts: 686
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2007 7:00 am
Location: Adelaide, Australia

Post by Fah »

Heya, is there any chance you can get some pics of the birds and let us know what the genetics of the parents are?

You have some very curious mixes of mutations there that dont quite fit the normal descriptions... for example, opaline will not override Pied (therefore should have no influence on the feet / nails).

Before I go on about the mutations here, can you get a photo of the birds showing wings and their flights? Preferably a side on / slightly rear photo? Any other pic generally does not show enough to really get into the genetics of it.

I have had my fair share of experience with these mutations, and am hesitant to say anything about what if etc as from what you are saying, things dont quite add up.

Aqua is easily visual and affects the bird as a whole. Clearheaded are visual from feathering as well, from normal stock.

What "line" of pied do you have? This is important for helping work this out. There are several pied lines in Australia, with some more common than others.

delayed: in an individual; piedness is not apparent in nest feather but becomes evident at the first or a subsequent moult.

progressive: in an individual; the degree of piedness increases over a number of successive moults.

regressive: in an individual; the degree of piedness reduces or even disappears over a number of successive moults.

regular: in an individual or strain; piedness follows a recognisable though variable pattern and is broadly symmetrical.

irregular: in an individual or strain; piedness appears random, is not symmetrical, and it is difficult to discern any pattern.

incremental: in a strain; piedness tends to increase with each subsequent generation. (few interesting developments with this line)

colour enhanced: there is an enhancement or subtle intensification of psittacin colour, or of body colour (green or blue), or of both, leading to an extra brilliance of plumage in those areas not directly affected by piedness.

anti-dimorphism (ADM): as a separate and distinct process from the pied process, but initiated by the pied gene, males lose their distinctive feather colour or patterning (i.e. the neck ring in the Ringneck, body colour in the English Pied Redrump), and resemble the female. (This process was recognised and the descriptive term suggested by Terry Martin of Brisbane, Australia.)

Opaline, like Aqua, are / should be in all regards, easily identifiable. If not, there is question as to the legitimacy/quality of the mutations line.
Ring0Neck
Posts: 1714
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 2:24 am
Location: Brisbane QLD AUS

Post by Ring0Neck »

FAH - I will reply to this post later as i am going out to work but quickly:
Pied is from jack Smith Victoria

Aqua/buttercup pictures here
http://i403.photobucket.com/albums/pp11 ... eraqua.jpg

http://i403.photobucket.com/albums/pp11 ... utter9.jpg


please let me know what you think.
Fah
Posts: 686
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2007 7:00 am
Location: Adelaide, Australia

Post by Fah »

Heya mate,

The Aqua doesnt quite fit the look of the bird sadly... the blue seems too strong in the wings / tail to come across as a bird with the Aqua mutation.

I cant tell to a great extent, but it is a curious hen indeed. The darker wings and pale body fit with the clearheaded nature, however the flights on the hen are quite curious. Clearheaded should make her flights quite dark indeed. However in the pic her flights are only dark towards the ends / tips.

If you can get a better pic of her wing it would be great to help out more.

See aqua is a full body wash... not something restricted to location or variety like Turquoise. Its a gene that changes all aspects of colour through the bird. I believe it could be that the blue wings and turquoise body colouring, combined with the clearheaded gene, is what gives her body the Aqua look, however the rest of her just does not fit with Aqua.

When you get back, no rush, if you can get a pic of the flights / wings / head of the pied in question it would make trying to work it out much easier.

Cheers.

P.S. What I say is not 100% rock solid, pictures can only say so much about a bird as lighting, image quality, oil reflections in the feathers through flash etc, all play an annoying role in making perfectly reliable judgements unless I can see something that is obviously not a part of that mutation... unless it stands out as being yes or no, its somewhat a grey area.
Ring0Neck
Posts: 1714
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 2:24 am
Location: Brisbane QLD AUS

Post by Ring0Neck »

here's the pic for the harlequin pied it is a big file so it will take a bit to load

http://i403.photobucket.com/albums/pp11 ... eck003.jpg
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