Two Steps Back, One Leap Forward

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lpmurdock831
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Joined: Sun Aug 17, 2014 12:35 am

Two Steps Back, One Leap Forward

Post by lpmurdock831 »

I've recently had a sweet and simple reminder that, just like in any relationship, sometimes with IRNs you have to move back to move forward.

Snow is - or was - stick-trained... that is, until I let his beautiful wings grow out to their full length and he learned just how easily he could avoid me trying to put him back in his cage for the night. I think the longest game of catch-me was twenty minutes of near constant fluttering back and forth across the very small room, which left us both puffing. After that, I started to fear that he'd begun to see the stick as an object to be avoided, and because he doesn't think too much of hands it was the only way we had of physically interacting.
Now I really love letting Snow out of his cage. I love watching him on his out-of-cage perches and I even love watching him stretch his beautiful wings in romps around the room. I don't have an aviary, either, so coming out of the cage was really the only way he could get to USE those wings. But I didn't want to have to revert to tackling him with a towel every time I let him out (and I don't think that would've been too good for our relationship either). So, it was with a heavy heart that I decided to keep him "cage-bound" until I could figure out where the training had gone wrong. I continued working with him inside his own cage, every day several times a day for a week, and very quickly discovered that I had been right: he'd started learning to "avoid the stick", and more out of "rebellion" than "fear". We had to go back and "re-train" step-up onto the stick.

Much to my surprise though, in the process of "re-training" step-up, we unexpectedly started getting gentle (non-biting) step-ups onto my hand! It was the first time since bringing him home well over a year ago, and LONG after I'd given up any ideas of having him hand-trained. We have now re-established step-up on the stick (which means he's back to romping round the room) and we are building on step-up on the hand.

Just goes to show, sometimes a set-back isn't really a set-back at all.
InTheAir
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Re: Two Steps Back, One Leap Forward

Post by InTheAir »

That's great! It is nice to hear some positive stories and flying birds!

Can we take it one step further, "rebellion" or ....?
Pity it is hard to post photos to this forum or I could add a really good meme...
sanjays mummi
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Re: Two Steps Back, One Leap Forward

Post by sanjays mummi »

In my case, Sanjay has always been fully flighted, and never stick trained or hand trained, so when He avoided going into his cage, it was because the cage was too small and he hated it. The fact that when he was in the cage he would pace up and down a perch was the giveaway. Once we got him a cage big enough to flit about in, getting him to go back in ceased to be a problem. He loves it!.
AJPeter
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Re: Two Steps Back, One Leap Forward

Post by AJPeter »

My Hen Billie likes her afternoon play time in private and demands to be covered at 2 - 3 pm
after about and hour she lets me know she wants the full cover on and about 4 pm if l let a pin drop she is sqwarking her protest. She loves her sleep.
lpmurdock831
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Joined: Sun Aug 17, 2014 12:35 am

Re: Two Steps Back, One Leap Forward

Post by lpmurdock831 »

sanjays mummi wrote:In my case, Sanjay has always been fully flighted, and never stick trained or hand trained, so when He avoided going into his cage, it was because the cage was too small and he hated it. The fact that when he was in the cage he would pace up and down a perch was the giveaway.
Yes, I had that same problem (pacing) when I first got him. But now he's got a cage that's about four times his length in all directions, and he doesn't pace, so I don't think that was it. I think he just loved being outside of his cage (and I mean, I can't blame him; wouldn't you?? :D :D ) I've now discovered that he just likes deciding to go back to his cage on his own terms, usually about 7pm for dinnertime. I'm also currently working on building him a play-stand so we can minimize cage-time even farther. But like I said, re-training step-up has definitely smoothed out our interactions.
lpmurdock831
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Re: Two Steps Back, One Leap Forward

Post by lpmurdock831 »

InTheAir wrote: Can we take it one step further, "rebellion" or ....?
Rebellion as in, He knows what it is I'm asking him to do (because he's done it before and still does it when he feels like it), but because he doesn't feel like it he avoids it. Plus, since we have now gone back to getting very nice, gentle step-ups on the stick, it seems it was simply a "game" he'd learned to play (and not one I was overly impressed with, hence "rebellion" from my perspective).

He is approaching a year-and-a-half, which seems too early to me to be going through "teen angst"... but then the aviary I got him from didn't seem too pegged down on ages of the birds. He could very well be a few months older, and closer to the "terrible twos". He doesn't have a ring, but sometimes I think I can see a few odd-colored feathers sticking out around his neck so I think possibly he may get one. (and yes, that means I don't really know for sure if he is "he" :D )

I would also like to re-emphasize that I have never, to my knowledge, been "mean" or "forceful" with the stick... but he's also a fairly nervous bird so it's hard to say what he perceives as "mean". I try to respect his body language as much as possible, leaving him alone when he has his back to me and only attempting training when he seems interested in me etc... but if it were up to him all the time, he'd never interact with me at a close distance. One of the trade-offs of getting an aviary-raised bird I guess. I acknowledge and accept that sometimes he tells me I'm pushing his trust a bit far, so it doesn't surprise me when he reacts. And I wouldn't have it any other way: I'm happy he tells me about it, because if he didn't I'd be assuming that everything was A-Okay when it wasn't.
MissK
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Re: Two Steps Back, One Leap Forward

Post by MissK »

I gotta step in to squash this "rebellion" concept., and I'm glad to see you acknowledge it as being something in your perspective. Let's launch it into outer space though; it's not good.

For reference:
I think the longest game of catch-me was twenty minutes of near constant fluttering back and forth across the very small room, which left us both puffing. After that, I started to fear that he'd begun to see the stick as an object to be avoided, and because he doesn't think too much of hands it was the only way we had of physically interacting.
Rebellion as in, He knows what it is I'm asking him to do (because he's done it before and still does it when he feels like it), but because he doesn't feel like it he avoids it. Plus, since we have now gone back to getting very nice, gentle step-ups on the stick, it seems it was simply a "game" he'd learned to play (and not one I was overly impressed with, hence "rebellion" from my perspective).
I would also like to re-emphasize that I have never, to my knowledge, been "mean" or "forceful" with the stick... but he's also a fairly nervous bird so it's hard to say what he perceives as "mean".
If you chase a bird while trying to catch him for twenty minutes until you are both puffing, you have, indeed, been mean and forceful. I'm not even going to support this with argument; it's common sense. Your fear that he started to see the stick as an object to be avoided is spot on. If you chase me with anything while I'm scared of you, I'm not going to want anything to do with it, either, or you. Even if you just continually press it at me when I don't want it, I'm not going to be a fan.

I'm not judging here, I'm guilty of a similar thing, back in the day. What I found, after a week of trapping my bird to bring him into the cool basement while I was at work and the AC was broken, was that the bird wanted nothing to do with me or my towel, and he started biting hard.

Like you, I gave my bird a rest from being pestered. ("Cage-bound" actually refers to a bird who is emotionally unprepared to leave the cage. The term you're looking for is simply "caged".) After few months of honest respect, the bird lessened and then stopped his "best defence is a strong offence" style bite. After a total of nearly seven months, he shocked me by stepping onto my wrist of his own volition while I was cleaning the cage.

Your bird's resistance was neither rebellion nor a game. He was simply trying to avoid something he either feared or didn't want. If I resist going near a wasp nest, am I rebelling or just doing what comes naturally? If you're my buddy and suddenly I try to avoid you because you start wapping me in the head, and then you promise to stop, and you do stop, and I come back near you, was I playing a game? You, maybe, but I was just doing what comes naturally.

If your bird doesn't comply with your requests, either you have not fully trained (conditioned) that response, or you have not made it worth his time. If he does comply with your requests, he is well conditioned, well rewarded, interested in doing that activity, interested in what reward might follow, or sees no reason not to comply. As I think you might have hinted, this was a case of the trainer needing the training.

Regarding the bird being "nervous", I would really think he simply has not attained an easy comfort level with his surroundings or your behaviour. Small wonder he would be uncomfortable with bona fide frightening or unreliable people, things, or circumstance. Novel or surprising situations may always be uncomfortable for some birds. However, if you can learn to be a kind, generous, reliable rock, I really think your bird will respond by displaying more confidence.

PS: "Teen angst" and "terrible twos" in Ringnecks is a bunch of baloney; forget about it. Ditch the idea of him being socially handicapped by being aviary raised as well. Your bird is subject to the principles of operant conditioning every bit as much as you and I, my dogs, my mom's Canary, my best friend's kids, dolphins at Sea World, goldfish in bowls, pet spiders, and cattle everywhere. If you're not getting what you want, you didn't train it well enough.
-MissK
InTheAir
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Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:24 pm

Re: Two Steps Back, One Leap Forward

Post by InTheAir »

Well, I would say "The desirability of staying outside the cage outweighed the desirability of entering the cage"..
Check out this pic, you don't need to have fb to view it
https://m.facebook.com/ReisnerVetBehavi ... &source=42


I've never heard of teenage angst in ringnecks either. Sounds like rubbish made up by someone who fails to grasp animal behaviour and learning theory.
Every interaction is quite simply the result of prior learning and current motivations. If we receive a response from our birds that we don't like, we can modify our behaviour to provoke the behaviour we want to see in our birds. My aviary raised girl is almost 2 now and she is still stepping up for me when I want to remove her from her latest potential nest site (wardrobe/pantry/speakers). I have a feeling it may get harder to find something to motivate her in the future, but having laid the positive groundwork will help.

I've made tons of mistakes with my birds, but they do forgive me when I think rationally and correct my behaviour, instead of trying to project things onto them. Btw Sapphire, the aviary raised one, will step up to be restrained (it is offered as a combo deal). climb into a towel, hold out her feet for me to trim her nails etc, we even play "this little piggy" (I had to make up new words for her because 4 toes) so it is possible to gain the trust of an aviary raised bird, if you read them and work at the pace that they are comfortable with. She is better with towel training than her handraised "boy friend". I have often pushed her past her "comfort zone" and had to back up in difficulty level to achieve what I want, but she still is willing to give me another chance.
And all us humans think we are the ones exerting patience and self-sacrifice by keeping parrots! My parrots beg to differ with us on that point! :mrgreen:
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