Cinnamon turquoise violet

Moderator: Mods

Post Reply
Traceyweller
Posts: 26
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2013 7:06 pm

Cinnamon turquoise violet

Post by Traceyweller »

Been told possibly to types of cinnamon ???

Bird 1
Image
Image

Bird 2
Image
Image

bird 3
Image
Image

bird 4
Image
Image
Recio
Posts: 966
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:09 am
Location: France

Re: Cinnamon turquoise violet

Post by Recio »

Hi,

It has been described cinnamon birds with ligth nails and others with grey nails, as in your pics. Are those different types of cinnamon? does it depend on minor genes? on strain specificities? IMO probably they are different alleles of cinnamon, but I do not know if somebody has made the study to prove that both are alleles of the same locus.

In my screen I can not clearly see if there are differences also on the beak colour? Can you tell us if the cinnamon bird with grey nails does also dysplay a darker beak?

Regards

Recio
Traceyweller
Posts: 26
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2013 7:06 pm

Re: Cinnamon turquoise violet

Post by Traceyweller »

Hi Recio thanks for the reply and will have a good look in the morning . I have seen a few people in Australia talking about the possibility of 2 or more types of cinnamon now for a while and wanted to see if anyone else can add pictures in prove this ?
Recio
Posts: 966
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:09 am
Location: France

Re: Cinnamon turquoise violet

Post by Recio »

Hi,

I have changed to a better screen and I can clearly see that the last bird with the grey nails also shows a darker bill than the first bird with the lighther nails.

Has anybody paired both cinnamon types together? Is there a different amount in brown melanin?

Traceyweller, could you please take a pic of both types of cinnamon birds, open wings, in the same shot, for better comparisons? Primary flying feathers are not influenced by psittacins in parblues (except some heavy homozygous turquoise birds, which is not the case) and the degree of darkness we see should be correlated to the amount of brown melanin present in the feathers.

Regards

Recio
Johan S
Posts: 1215
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:24 am
Location: Pretoria, South Africa

Re: Cinnamon turquoise violet

Post by Johan S »

Nigel, I'd say birds 1 and 3 are cinnamon, and 2 and 4 are cinnamon-pallid crossovers. Stunning pictures, as usual. :D
Recio
Posts: 966
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:09 am
Location: France

Re: Cinnamon turquoise violet

Post by Recio »

Hi Johan,

I have some troubles with the cinnamon pallid cross-overs:
1. Cinnamon nails colour and pallid nails colour are similar (ligth) ... how could this combo produce dark nails?
2. Cinnamon beak is red (sometimes the lower bill is a little brownish) and pallid beak is also red ... how could this combo produce a dark beak?
Something else: Cinnamon Pallid cross-overs show a lacewing pattern which I can not find in these birds.

Maybe you feel that they could be a Cinnamon Pallid crossover because of the ligth heads but I have had similar results with cinnamon violet combo in green series birds ... and Madas showed some birds with a similar pattern coming from a cinnamon strain in a previous post.

Anyway the answer belong to the bird owners ... is pallid involved in the genetic make up of these birds?

Regards

Recio
Johan S
Posts: 1215
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:24 am
Location: Pretoria, South Africa

Re: Cinnamon turquoise violet

Post by Johan S »

Hi Recio,

as always, a very welcome experience engaging with you (why are you so scarce these days?). You have some trouble with cinnamon-pallid, so let me try to address some of your points and maybe I can put your mind to ease. :D

1. These birds all have light nails on my computer. Nothing darker than expected, except for the one picture showing a slight amount of melanin.
2. None of these birds have a dark beak on my screen. Birds 3 and 4 show a brownish lower mandible, as expected for cinnamon, but certainly nothing as dark to the wildtype. To me the darker (than ino) red is because the pictures are in slightly overcast conditions. They really are top notch and I also prefer these conditions. :D

Something else, the lacewing pattern is reported for budgerigar, where the tips of the feather is dark with only melanin expressed, resp brown for cinnamon. That causes the lacewing pattern in cinnamon-ino (a discussion for another time: how does this natural feather phenotype affect the phenotype of the spangled budgie, and what should we really expect in a spangled IRN when taking this knowledge into account? Budgerigars are "naturally built" to express spangle better.). The inner part of the budgerigar feather shows psittacin and melanin in a similar effective green tone to an IRN, and that should be our exclusive consideration. There isn't a single cinnamon-ino IRN to my knowledge that shows the same lacewing pattern, where the outer part is darker than then inner part of the feather. The cinnamon-ino crossover starts out as a yellow bird, but shows an even green tinge as it matures. No lace pattern in the birds I've seen, unfortunately. :( It would have been awesome if it was the case.

You are right, I do feel the lighter head contributes towards the crossover. To be honest, my initial feeling was that it was mostly because birds tend to moult out first over their body, and then later the head, which leaves the year old faded feathers in the head with the vibrant new feathers over the body. However, clearly these birds aren't moulting, and discussions with Shey and Nigel then later lead to a Facebook discussion with some experienced breeders from Aus that confirmed that there is indeed a white head cinnamon line that have been doing the rounds in Australia for 10+ years (and almost disappeared! :shock: ), which turns out to be a confirmed crossover with pallid.

Do you have some pictures of your violet green cinnamons? Cinnamon is such an under rated mutations, yours will be stunning birds. :mrgreen:

Maybe it isn't the right answer in this case, but it seems plausible to me. And a simple answer. I like simple. :D Thoughts?
Traceyweller
Posts: 26
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2013 7:06 pm

Re: Cinnamon turquoise violet

Post by Traceyweller »

Hi Johan and Recio I can get picture of birds 1 and 2 wing open today has 3 and 4 are on eggs or just about to lay. Johan I added a picture of another cinnamon you and I talked about with the head molt white and I feel this is different to bird 4 ?

Image
Ring0Neck
Posts: 1714
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 2:24 am
Location: Brisbane QLD AUS

Re: Cinnamon turquoise violet

Post by Ring0Neck »

Nigel,

You said they are paired up to breed this year.
Tell us the pairings & when young feather up we could determine what parents are based on the young; if crossover, a combination of mutations or indeed 2 types, depending on the pairings you've done if you have paired one type X the other type we can conclude if both cinnamon if allelic or 2 diff. mutations or a combination of mutations.

How the bird looks (phenotype) tells a story but facts always come from genetics, offspring, depending on what was bred we can determine exactly by the elimination proccess. 1+1 can not equal 3

Example:
Cinnamon T1 X Cinnamon T2
If both male & female cinnamon are bred we can conclude both cinnamon or allelic mutations.
if male is cinnamon-pallid or cinnamon-edged we can determine that based on the young also & so on.
I'm an Explorer
10% luck, 20% skill, 15% concentrated power of will, 50% pleasure, 5% pain$ and a 100% reason ..I just gotta know
Traceyweller
Posts: 26
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2013 7:06 pm

Re: Cinnamon turquoise violet

Post by Traceyweller »

I added different angles if that helps

Bird 2
Image
Image
Bird 3
Image
Image
Image
Youngster with whiter flights ?
Image
Image
Traceyweller
Posts: 26
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2013 7:06 pm

Re: Cinnamon turquoise violet

Post by Traceyweller »

Ben some are one year old birds and not expecting young from them this year ?
madas
Posts: 973
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:12 am
Contact:

Re: Cinnamon turquoise violet

Post by madas »

Traceyweller wrote:I added different angles if that helps

Bird 2
Image
Image
Bird 3
Image
Image
Image
Youngster with whiter flights ?
Image
Image
Edit: removed the nonsense. Corrected the rest.

And you are 100% sure that both types inherit sex-linked recessive?
The most common pairing used by bird hobbyists for sex-linked mutations is male /sexlinked rec. mutation x sexlinked rec. mutation female. But this pairing is telling nothing about the real inheritance of the mutation it self. The results are the same as for a true recessive mutation 50% mutated birds and 50% non mutated. So have you set up pairs like mutated male x normal female? If so what results did you get?

madas
Last edited by madas on Wed Aug 20, 2014 11:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
Recio
Posts: 966
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:09 am
Location: France

Re: Cinnamon turquoise violet

Post by Recio »

Johan S wrote:Hi Recio,

as always, a very welcome experience engaging with you (why are you so scarce these days?). You have some trouble with cinnamon-pallid, so let me try to address some of your points and maybe I can put your mind to ease. :D

1. These birds all have light nails on my computer. Nothing darker than expected, except for the one picture showing a slight amount of melanin.
2. None of these birds have a dark beak on my screen. Birds 3 and 4 show a brownish lower mandible, as expected for cinnamon, but certainly nothing as dark to the wildtype. To me the darker (than ino) red is because the pictures are in slightly overcast conditions. They really are top notch and I also prefer these conditions. :D

Something else, the lacewing pattern is reported for budgerigar, where the tips of the feather is dark with only melanin expressed, resp brown for cinnamon. That causes the lacewing pattern in cinnamon-ino (a discussion for another time: how does this natural feather phenotype affect the phenotype of the spangled budgie, and what should we really expect in a spangled IRN when taking this knowledge into account? Budgerigars are "naturally built" to express spangle better.). The inner part of the budgerigar feather shows psittacin and melanin in a similar effective green tone to an IRN, and that should be our exclusive consideration. There isn't a single cinnamon-ino IRN to my knowledge that shows the same lacewing pattern, where the outer part is darker than then inner part of the feather. The cinnamon-ino crossover starts out as a yellow bird, but shows an even green tinge as it matures. No lace pattern in the birds I've seen, unfortunately. :( It would have been awesome if it was the case.

You are right, I do feel the lighter head contributes towards the crossover. To be honest, my initial feeling was that it was mostly because birds tend to moult out first over their body, and then later the head, which leaves the year old faded feathers in the head with the vibrant new feathers over the body. However, clearly these birds aren't moulting, and discussions with Shey and Nigel then later lead to a Facebook discussion with some experienced breeders from Aus that confirmed that there is indeed a white head cinnamon line that have been doing the rounds in Australia for 10+ years (and almost disappeared! :shock: ), which turns out to be a confirmed crossover with pallid.

Do you have some pictures of your violet green cinnamons? Cinnamon is such an under rated mutations, yours will be stunning birds. :mrgreen:

Maybe it isn't the right answer in this case, but it seems plausible to me. And a simple answer. I like simple. :D Thoughts?
Hi Johan,

Thanks for your answer. Some "sparse" comments about cinnamon:

1. The ligth nails have been described as a feature of cinnamon (as you can see in "psittacule world" page) and we treated about them in the past. If I remember correctly Tienie Carr reported that his strain of cinnamon birds showed grey/dark nails. Those birds showed a "normal" cinnamon phenotype (not pallid like) excepting for the nails colour. In my screen I can really see a big difference in nails and beak colour, specially between the first and the fourth bird.

2. Pallid-like birds from cinnamon strains appear in "light" coloured birds. We know that the head in cinnamon birds show a colour several steps ligther than the body colour. So in "ligth" birds we could expect a pallid-like phenotype, respective to the head colour, and specially in blue series birds. How could we make the difference between those birds and a true Cinnamon Pallid crossover? It would be very hard if their crossing over rate is really 3%, as for budgies.

3. It has been argued in the past that the combo Cinnamon Pallid showed a lacewing pattern. This has been also recently stated by Zahir Rana in Lee's facebook page. On my side last season I have got a Cinnamon SL-Ino Violet Green bird. This bird displays a ligth lacewing pattern with typical cinnamon violet primary wing feathers. His overall colour is almost yellow with "grey" primary wing feathers. My idea is, in the future, to add Grey to this combo in order to decrease the phenotypic effect of melanin in the body (less greenish and more yellowish) and increase its effect on the wings, trying to get a combo that we could call "grey/black wings" with a yellow body (green series) or an (almost) white body (blue series). By the way, IMO, it is this effect of Grey which allows to get better Opaline markings in Grey series birds.

4. Cinnamon is an under rated mutation? Yes, it is. That means that it is cheaper ... That is great!!! ... but it will be more and more "up rated" in the futur because it allows to study the expression of other mutations (mainly structural mutations) in a model with a different type of pigment (brown melanin). Ex: We usually say that Grey masks Violet ... would it be the same in Cinnamon series birds? We'll see.

Best regards

Recio

PS (post edited): I have just had a closer look at the Cinnamon SL-Ino Violet green bird. You are rigth Johan: there is not a lacewing pattern with more melanin on the outer part of the feathers, but rather the opposite: a bit less melanin in the outer part of the feathers producing a ligth "barring" effect (not the same than lacewing). May be this barring effect is enhanced by the presence of Violet. I will try to take pics of this bird next week-end.
Johan S
Posts: 1215
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:24 am
Location: Pretoria, South Africa

Re: Cinnamon turquoise violet

Post by Johan S »

Recio wrote:Hi Johan,
...
PS (post edited): I have just had a closer look at the Cinnamon SL-Ino Violet green bird. You are rigth Johan: there is not a lacewing pattern with more melanin on the outer part of the feathers, but rather the opposite: a bit less melanin in the outer part of the feathers producing a ligth "barring" effect (not the same than lacewing). May be this barring effect is enhanced by the presence of Violet. I will try to take pics of this bird next week-end.
PS: How old are the feathers? It could be fading due to direct exposure to the sun. The outer edges are exposed more than the inner parts. :idea:
Recio
Posts: 966
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:09 am
Location: France

Re: Cinnamon turquoise violet

Post by Recio »

Johan S wrote:
Recio wrote:Hi Johan,
...
PS (post edited): I have just had a closer look at the Cinnamon SL-Ino Violet green bird. You are rigth Johan: there is not a lacewing pattern with more melanin on the outer part of the feathers, but rather the opposite: a bit less melanin in the outer part of the feathers producing a ligth "barring" effect (not the same than lacewing). May be this barring effect is enhanced by the presence of Violet. I will try to take pics of this bird next week-end.
PS: How old are the feathers? It could be fading due to direct exposure to the sun. The outer edges are exposed more than the inner parts. :idea:
This is not a fading effect since the bird is only 4 months old and these markings were present at fledging.

Recio
Recio
Posts: 966
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:09 am
Location: France

Re: Cinnamon turquoise violet

Post by Recio »

madas wrote:And you are 100% sure that both types inherit sex-linked recessive? Means if a normal male is paired to a mutated female you will only get mutated males?
The most common pairing used by bird hobbyists for sex-linked mutations is male /sexlinked mutation x sexlinked mutation female. But this pairing is telling nothing about the real inheritance of the mutation it self. The results are the same as for a true recessive mutation 50% mutated birds and 50% non mutated. So have set up pairs like mutated male x normal female or normal male x mutated female? If so what results did you get?

madas
Hi Madas,

I do not understand what you want to mean about cinnamon inheritance and about how to prove it. Could you reformulate, please?

Thanks

Recio
Ring0Neck
Posts: 1714
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 2:24 am
Location: Brisbane QLD AUS

Re: Cinnamon turquoise violet

Post by Ring0Neck »

madas wrote:
... Means if a normal male is paired to a mutated female you will only get mutated males?...
Above Question is confusing (probably a Typo) , the rest makes sense to me.


Ok,
Nigel tells me he has many pairs where both male & female are Cinnamon, these pairs could help confirm if both types are cinnamon or allelic since 100% offspring should be cinnamon in both sexes.

He also has:

Edged blue x Cinnamon Violet

Cinnamon Violet x violet pallid

TurquoiseBlue Edged x Cinnamon Violet

These are the pairs that could also help (esp. if Edged does not carry cinnamon)

If the light headed cinnamons are Cinnamon-Pallid pairing such male X Cinnamon hen we get
==============================================
1,0 cinnamon pallid blue x 0,1 cinnamon blue
==============================================
1,0 100% cinnamon blue /pallid
----------------------------------------------
0,1 100% cinnamon pallid blue
* All hens will look like the father and males like the mother.

What do you think Madas, Et Al?
I'm an Explorer
10% luck, 20% skill, 15% concentrated power of will, 50% pleasure, 5% pain$ and a 100% reason ..I just gotta know
madas
Posts: 973
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:12 am
Contact:

Re: Cinnamon turquoise violet

Post by madas »

Ring0Neck wrote:
madas wrote: ... Means if a normal male is paired to a mutated female you will only get mutated males?...
Edit: removed the nonsense and corrected the rest. Even the quote above is nonsense regarding a sex-linked rec. mutation

Maybe the lighter "cinnamon" is a pastel (same mutation which Tienie is playing with) or a bad colored bronze fallow. So to rule out these possibilities you have to test breed a mutated male to a non mutated female. If Nigel is still getting mutated females from such a pair then we could deal with to distinct cinnamon mutations or even alleles.

madas
Last edited by madas on Wed Aug 20, 2014 11:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
Recio
Posts: 966
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:09 am
Location: France

Re: Cinnamon turquoise violet

Post by Recio »

madas wrote:Sorry i left one part "Means if a normal male is paired to a mutated female you will only get mutated males and non mutated females" So the expected results for a sex-linked mutation.
Madas, I do not agree. I guess you have misread yourself because this is a matter you perfectly know. You should have written:

"Means if a normal male is paired to a mutated female you will only get split males and non mutated females" So the expected results for a sex-linked mutation"

or

"Means if a normal male is paired to a mutated female you will only get mutated males and non mutated females" So the expected results for a dominant sex-linked mutation

... and I think that pairing a split male for type 1 cinnamon to a mutated female for type 2 cinnamon is the best pairing to know if both cinnamon types are allelic or not.

Regards

Recio
madas
Posts: 973
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:12 am
Contact:

Re: Cinnamon turquoise violet

Post by madas »

Recio wrote:
madas wrote:Sorry i left one part "Means if a normal male is paired to a mutated female you will only get mutated males and non mutated females" So the expected results for a sex-linked mutation.
Madas, I do not agree. I guess you have misread yourself because this is a matter you perfectly know. You should have written:

"Means if a normal male is paired to a mutated female you will only get split males and non mutated females" So the expected results for a sex-linked mutation"

or

"Means if a normal male is paired to a mutated female you will only get mutated males and non mutated females" So the expected results for a dominant sex-linked mutation

... and I think that pairing a split male for type 1 cinnamon to a mutated female for type 2 cinnamon is the best pairing to know if both cinnamon types are allelic or not.

Regards

Recio
Ups. I have to apologize. You are completely right. Not my day. :(
I was writing about cinnamon but thought of SL Edged. :) So forget what i wrote in the two posts before. It is partial bull ****.
So i have to rethink but not today. :D

madas
Ring0Neck
Posts: 1714
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 2:24 am
Location: Brisbane QLD AUS

Re: Cinnamon turquoise violet

Post by Ring0Neck »

Ring0Neck wrote:
madas wrote:
... Means if a normal male is paired to a mutated female you will only get mutated males?...
Above Question is confusing (probably a Typo) , the rest makes sense to me...
I did want to say initially: "He is probably thinking of Edged" :D
only Edged mutation is known to have that breeding result.

As Recio said: "...the expected results for a dominant sex-linked mutation"
Good pickup Recio.
I'm an Explorer
10% luck, 20% skill, 15% concentrated power of will, 50% pleasure, 5% pain$ and a 100% reason ..I just gotta know
Johan S
Posts: 1215
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:24 am
Location: Pretoria, South Africa

Re: Cinnamon turquoise violet

Post by Johan S »

madas wrote:So to rule out these possibilities you have to test breed a mutated male to a non mutated female. If Nigel is still getting mutated females from such a pair then we could deal with to distinct cinnamon mutations or even alleles.

madas
Madas, I don't think that is the best approach to solving the mystery. Unfortunately, due to the very strong linkage between pallid and cinnamon, it will be hard to tell whether we are dealing with two distinct alleles of cinnamon, or rather the cinnamon-pallid crossover by looking at the hen offspring. They would need to be tested to have a conclusive answer. My suggestion is to breed the best looking "white headed" cinnamon male to a pallid hen. If a phenotypic pallid cock is produced, the mystery is solved right there and we'll know the sire carries pallid.

A question I think Recio would enjoy exploring is this: Would the cinnamon / pallid cock (a single crossed over gene) show a true cinnamon like head, or could the dilution already be visible in an intermediate form due to the the presence of brown melanin (placing us on a more sensitive part of the sigmoid curve) and a deactivating gene for head melanin (pallid). :?:
Recio
Posts: 966
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:09 am
Location: France

Re: Cinnamon turquoise violet

Post by Recio »

Hi,

Let's come back to the main subject evoqued by Traceyweller: are there two types of cinnamon ot just one fron the pics that have been posted?

Possibilities:

1. Yes, there are two different types of cinnamon.
For: different nails colour from the present post and old communications. Probably also a darker beak coupled to darker nails. In the past budgi breeders said that Cinnamon should be avoided in their breeding programs because even split birds were one step ligther than pure birds. Other breeders said that this was not true. Maybe those were two different types of cinnamon???


2. No, there is only one type of Cinnamon but it can be linked to another sek linked mutation and work as a single mutation. Possibilities:
2.1: Linkage Cinnamon-Pallid:
For: pallid-like head
Against: nails and beak colour
This possibility should be explored by specific matings.
2.2: Linkage Cinnamon-SL Edge:
For: Ligth edge pattern on wing feathers on Traceyweller pics. Edge could "add" some pigment to nails and beak.
Against : this linkage is very easy to detect since SL Edge is dominant, and thus the SL-Edge phenotype would be easily detected in feterozygous Cinnamon-SL Edge combos. Besides the crossing over rate is around 25-30%, and with such a soft linkage, normal cinnamons and normal SL-Edge would appear quite quickly in any breeding program.

Regards

Recio
Johan S
Posts: 1215
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:24 am
Location: Pretoria, South Africa

Re: Cinnamon turquoise violet

Post by Johan S »

Recio, I agree. That is a very reasonable summary of the possibilities.
Recio
Posts: 966
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:09 am
Location: France

Re: Cinnamon turquoise violet

Post by Recio »

Johan S wrote:Unfortunately, due to the very strong linkage between pallid and cinnamon, it will be hard to tell whether we are dealing with two distinct alleles of cinnamon, or rather the cinnamon-pallid crossover by looking at the hen offspring. They would need to be tested to have a conclusive answer. My suggestion is to breed the best looking "white headed" cinnamon male to a pallid hen. If a phenotypic pallid cock is produced, the mystery is solved right there and we'll know the sire carries pallid.

A question I think Recio would enjoy exploring is this: Would the cinnamon / pallid cock (a single crossed over gene) show a true cinnamon like head, or could the dilution already be visible in an intermediate form due to the the presence of brown melanin (placing us on a more sensitive part of the sigmoid curve) and a deactivating gene for head melanin (pallid). :?:
Hi Johan,

I completelly agree for your test breeding hypothesis: 1.0 "pallid-like" cinnamon x 0.1 pallid hen ..... but, as you comment later, it could not work whenever the interaction between cinnamon and pallid, in males, both in the heterozygous form, either in the same chromossome (linkage type 1) or in different chromossomes (linkage type 2), would allow to produce a different behaviour of both mutations, acting as if they were dominants instead of recessives. As discussed in previous posts, fort probably most mutations behave as incomplete dominant (or incomplete recessive) and we can facilitate its expression and apparent behaviour as if they were dominant by adding another mutation "placing us on a more sensitive part of the sigmoid curve". Anyway only specific breeding, as you suggested, will be able to answer this question.

I come back to the effect of the Grey mutation: it probably changes the optical appearance of melanin to a more sensitive part of the sigmoid curve of colour sensitivity of our retina, and it allows to apparently increase the colour difference between the ligth grey colour (it appears whitter) and the dark grey colour (it looks darker, mainly by increasing the contrast respective to the ligther areas). This could explain the better expression of Opaline markers in Grey birds, and it could also explain that budgi breeders usually add Grey to Blue Ino birds in order to optically eliminate any residual melanin, and get "purer" white birds.

Regards

Recio
madas
Posts: 973
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:12 am
Contact:

Re: Cinnamon turquoise violet

Post by madas »

Recio wrote: In the past budgi breeders said that Cinnamon should be avoided in their breeding programs because even split birds were one step ligther than pure birds.
And this is my assumption too. So i am saying that mostly 95% of the so called SL Edged(df)-Cinnamons or SL Edged(sf)-Cinnamons are in real only split for cinnamon and the hetereozyguos cinnamon gen is already expressed in the phenotype because of the linkage to SL Edged at the sex chromosome. The true SL Edged(df)-Cinnamon could be the birds of Antonio (Fusi) or the bird in question of Coastal-Birds.
Markers like the color of nails or feet aren't reliable because as discussed some days ago in a german bird forum there are wildtype IRN (living in the wilderness of Germany) which are expressing brown nails and brownish feets and then we have some wildtype species which are showing grey feets and dark brown nearly black nails.

wildtype brown nails:

Image

wildtype (according to the breeder proven to be free of any other mutation) black nails:

Image
Recio wrote: Against : this linkage is very easy to detect since SL Edge is dominant, and thus the SL-Edge phenotype would be easily detected in heterozygous Cinnamon-SL Edge combos. Besides the crossing over rate is around 25-30%, and with such a soft linkage, normal cinnamons and normal SL-Edge would appear quite quickly in any breeding program.
There did you get the info from that cinnamon and SL Edged are expressing a crossover rate of 25-30%? Who has proven this?

From Tienies pairings of SL Edged x Opaline we know that there is a high recombinantion frequence between the two mutations. Offspring ratio is around 35 : 65 giving us a recombinantion frequence of 35%. As you know the recombinantion frequence could be mapped to the distance on a chromosome. Cinnamon and opaline have an already proven recombinantion frequence of 33%. So lets assume cinnamon is on "left side" of the DNA strand and opaline on the right side with a distance of 33 LMU (linkage map unit) between both. So now we want to give SL Edged its correct position on the DNA strand with a LMU of 35. Would you place it left or right from opaline? Placing it on the right from opaline couldn't be the correct position because you will end up with an LMU of 68 resp. a recombinantion frequence of 68% between SL Edged and cinnamon. A recombinantion frequence of more then 50% doesn't exist. 50% is equal to the recombination of two distinct, non linked mutations. So the only possibility which is left is placing SL Edged on the left side. And so you will end up with a LMU of 2 resp. a recombinantion frequence of 2%. Even if the recombinantion frequence between SL Edged and Opalin is some steps higher or lower you will end up with a very low recombinantion frequence between SL Edged and cinnamon. To see a bird which is visual expressing both mutations (crossed over) you have to divide the recombinantion frequence by 2 because there are two possibilities for a crossed over phenotype (both mutated alleles on one chromosome and both non-mutated alleles on one chromosome).

Maybe i am wrong again but this is how i have it in mind. :(

madas
Recio
Posts: 966
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:09 am
Location: France

Re: Cinnamon turquoise violet

Post by Recio »

Hi Madas;

1. About nails colour: it mainly depends on melanin content and much less on structural changes. The bird showing black nails, also show a darker skin and a greener belly than the one showing ligth nails. These findings point to a different level in melanin content between both birds. You are going to say that this is due to the different ligthing conditions ... and I am going to agree, but only partially. A pic with both types of birds in the same shot would be conclusive.

2. About the Cinnamon SL Edge crossing over rate .... Oups!!! I was thinking about Tienie's results with Opaline :roll: , so do not feel lonly. We all have the mind away from time to time :) .
I agree with your reasoning and conclusions, but we can do it a bit more accurate by making calculations with the crossing over rate (P) instead of with the offspring ratio (OR).

P = OR/(1- OR) ....... and ....... OR = P/(1+P)

If we have got an OR of 35% for a linkage between SL-Edge and Opaline, the corresponding P (crossing over rate) is 0.50. P for Opaline-SL Ino is 0.428 (OR 30%). P for SL-Ino - Cinnamon is 0.031 (OR 3%). If we calculate the distance beween Cin and Opaline we get 0.428 + 0.031 = 0.459. If the distance between Edge and Opaline is 0.50 and the distance between Cin and Opaline is 0.459 then we can calculate the distance between Edge and Cinnamon:
2 possibilities depending on which side of the DNA strand we consider:
Very highly linked ... P = 0.50 - 0.459 = 0.041 ..... OR = 0.039 = 3.9%
Very softly linked ... P = 0.50 + 0.459 = 0.959 ..... OR = 0.489 = 48.9%

The most likely possibility is the first one (and thus the probability of getting a bird with both mutations would be around 3.9/2 = 1.95% as explained by Madas). The second one with an OR of 48.9% is unlike since it joins the general inheritance of mutations on different chromossomes (OR = 50%, P = 1).

Regards

Recio
madas
Posts: 973
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:12 am
Contact:

Re: Cinnamon turquoise violet

Post by madas »

Recio wrote:Hi Madas;

1. About nails colour: it mainly depends on melanin content and much less on structural changes. The bird showing black nails, also show a darker skin and a greener belly than the one showing ligth nails. These findings point to a different level in melanin content between both birds. You are going to say that this is due to the different ligthing conditions ... and I am going to agree, but only partially. A pic with both types of birds in the same shot would be conclusive.

2. About the Cinnamon SL Edge crossing over rate .... Oups!!! I was thinking about Tienie's results with Opaline :roll: , so do not feel lonly. We all have the mind away from time to time :) .
I agree with your reasoning and conclusions, but we can do it a bit more accurate by making calculations with the crossing over rate (P) instead of with the offspring ratio (OR).

P = OR/(1- OR) ....... and ....... OR = P/(1+P)

If we have got an OR of 35% for a linkage between SL-Edge and Opaline, the corresponding P (crossing over rate) is 0.50. P for Opaline-SL Ino is 0.428 (OR 30%). P for SL-Ino - Cinnamon is 0.031 (OR 3%). If we calculate the distance beween Cin and Opaline we get 0.428 + 0.031 = 0.459. If the distance between Edge and Opaline is 0.50 and the distance between Cin and Opaline is 0.459 then we can calculate the distance between Edge and Cinnamon:
2 possibilities depending on which side of the DNA strand we consider:
Very highly linked ... P = 0.50 - 0.459 = 0.041 ..... OR = 0.039 = 3.9%
Very softly linked ... P = 0.50 + 0.459 = 0.959 ..... OR = 0.489 = 48.9%

The most likely possibility is the first one (and thus the probability of getting a bird with both mutations would be around 3.9/2 = 1.95% as explained by Madas). The second one with an OR of 48.9% is unlike since it joins the general inheritance of mutations on different chromossomes (OR = 50%, P = 1).

Regards

Recio

Explained very well. :D
I love your high level explanations with a scientific background but can't (and sometimes won't) always following them. :) But this one was a easy one. :P

So the possibility of "Fusi" being the true homozyguos SL Edged-cinnamon isn't far away, right?

madas
Recio
Posts: 966
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:09 am
Location: France

Re: Cinnamon turquoise violet

Post by Recio »

Yes, I think so.

It would seem that SL-Edge, Cinnamon and SL-Ino/Pallid were all together in around 5 LMU. It will be really hard to know exactly which one is besides the other. In this situation any linkage between any 2 or 3 of these mutations would inherit as a single mutation:

1. Cin-SL Ino ... described long time ago but vanished from our pic gallery. Does anybody own a pic of this bird, specially male phenotype?

2. Cin-SL Edge ... fusi? Very probably

3. SL Edge - SL Ino ... are we sure that this is a yellow bird? After the results of the combo Cin - SL Ino I would not say that this bird is just a yellow bird before it has been produced.

4. Cin - SL Ino - Sl Edge .... who knows???

5. In any one of the above combinations you can change SL-Ino by Pallid (and also consider PallidIno for males). That makes an overall amount of 7 possibilities of apparent "true breeding" for those combos (apart PallidInos) ... and this is considering that there are not different alleles for Cinnamon or SL-Edge.


.... and what about Slate? Any study of recombination respective to other SL mutations?

Regards

Recio
Johan S
Posts: 1215
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:24 am
Location: Pretoria, South Africa

Re: Cinnamon turquoise violet

Post by Johan S »

Recio wrote:.... and what about Slate? Any study of recombination respective to other SL mutations?

Regards

Recio
Not for IRN. I'm not aware of the existence of the mutation (yet). I only know of it in the budgie, but maybe it has popped up in another species. I do believe that those numbers have been roughly established. Inte believes that slate and opaline are fairly far apart.

http://www.euronet.nl/users/hnl/sexchrom.htm

And for those that might want to refresh on an old topic, this was an interesting one: http://www.indianringneck.com/forum/vie ... hp?p=91271
Recio
Posts: 966
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:09 am
Location: France

Re: Cinnamon turquoise violet

Post by Recio »

Hi Johan,

Thanks for the references.

Inte described an offspring ratio (OR) of 40.5% between Opaline and Slate in budgies. At the time he wrote that article he was studing the crossing over rate (P) between Cinnamon and Slate and preliminary results pointed to around 5% of OR. We can make some calculations to help him:

OR Opaline-Slate is 40.5% ..... corresponding P = 0.680
OR Opaline-Cinnamon is 31.7% .... corresponding P = 0.464

Thus P for Cinnamon-Slate would be 0.680 - 0.464 = 0.216 .... and the corresponding OR = 17.7% ... roughly 1:5

Slate can not be located "to the other side" because 0.680 + 0.464 > 1, which is not possible. Thus Slate would be the first locus, followed by the complex SL-Edge (also in budgies?), Cinnamon, SL-Ino (we do not know which one is before the other), and further away to the other side is the Opaline locus.

That article was written by Inte several years ago and, at present, he should have enough numbers to allow to conclude. It would be great to know if the final OR he has got is closer to the initially estimated 5% (one crossing over every 20 chicks) or to 18% (one crossing over every 5-6 chicks). This could also help to validate the correction of the crossing over value respective to the offspring ratio, accounting for the possibility of multicrossing over, and, if necessary, to update wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slate_budgerigar_mutation

Regards

Recio
Johan S
Posts: 1215
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:24 am
Location: Pretoria, South Africa

Re: Cinnamon turquoise violet

Post by Johan S »

Recio wrote:Slate can not be located "to the other side" because 0.680 + 0.464 > 1, which is not possible. Thus Slate would be the first locus, followed by the complex SL-Edge (also in budgies?), Cinnamon, SL-Ino (we do not know which one is before the other), and further away to the other side is the Opaline locus.
Hi Recio, I haven't heard of SL Edged in budgies, only in the lineolated parrot. I agree with what you say (mostly). For me, there is still uncertainty over the order of the inner loci, SL Edged, Cinnamon and SL Ino. I don't think there is enough SL Edged opaline offspring yet to conclude it's OR or P. Not many of them have been bred, but at least we can conclude that crossing over is fairly easy (but not if it is more/less easy than for instance SL Ino and opaline).
Recio
Posts: 966
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:09 am
Location: France

Re: Cinnamon turquoise violet

Post by Recio »

Johan S wrote:For me, there is still uncertainty over the order of the inner loci, SL Edged, Cinnamon and SL Ino. I don't think there is enough SL Edged opaline offspring yet to conclude it's OR or P. Not many of them have been bred, but at least we can conclude that crossing over is fairly easy (but not if it is more/less easy than for instance SL Ino and opaline).
Hi Johan,

I agree, that is the reason I spoke about the SL Edge, Cinnamon, SL-Ino complex : we do not know which is the real order on the DNA string.

I have just received the confirmation from Intel respective to the Cinnamon Slate offspring ratio in budgies: 5% of Cinnamon Slate combo ... that is 10% of non corrected crossing over (11% of corrected crossing over), keeping in mind the production of normals.

Regards

Recio
Johan S
Posts: 1215
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:24 am
Location: Pretoria, South Africa

Re: Cinnamon turquoise violet

Post by Johan S »

Ah, that clarifies what you meant by complex. I thought you meant "difficult". :oops:

Thanks for the confirmation on the slate, so we know that the basic order is correct and the approximate distances between the loci further apart.
madas
Posts: 973
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:12 am
Contact:

Re: Cinnamon turquoise violet

Post by madas »

Recio wrote:confirmation from Intel
Thought Intel is making computer CPUs. Are they dealing with birds genetic too? :D :P

madas
Ring0Neck
Posts: 1714
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 2:24 am
Location: Brisbane QLD AUS

Re: Cinnamon turquoise violet

Post by Ring0Neck »

No Keyboard, please press CTRL ALT DEL to restart your PC :lol:
I'm an Explorer
10% luck, 20% skill, 15% concentrated power of will, 50% pleasure, 5% pain$ and a 100% reason ..I just gotta know
Recio
Posts: 966
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:09 am
Location: France

Re: Cinnamon turquoise violet

Post by Recio »

Thumbs up guys :lol: :lol: :lol:
Johan S
Posts: 1215
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:24 am
Location: Pretoria, South Africa

Re: Cinnamon turquoise violet

Post by Johan S »

madas wrote:
Recio wrote:confirmation from Intel
Thought Intel is making computer CPUs. Are they dealing with birds genetic too? :D :P

madas
Oh, you clever, naughty boy! :lol: :lol:
Post Reply