2B or not 2B ?

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Ring0Neck
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2B or not 2B ?

Post by Ring0Neck »

We have 4 birds in below pic.
All 4 carry Emerald & Dom. Pied mutations
Bird's sex: L 2 R: Male; male i think; Male; Hen

It is obvious the first 2 have a diff. phenotype compared to the last 2.

Why do you think that is?

http://parakeet.me/irn/m/em/4ep.jpg
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Re: 2B or not 2B ?

Post by Kappa »

The first two also carry turquoise?
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Re: 2B or not 2B ?

Post by Ring0Neck »

Hi Kappa,

Good question to break the ice.
answer is: no turquoise for either of the 4.
the 2nd bird in the pic is from Chris's website
https://picasaweb.google.com/MCWaviarie ... 2653772610
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Re: 2B or not 2B ?

Post by Kappa »

That can only mean one thing. The first two must be of the saddleback line of pieds. :wink:
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Re: 2B or not 2B ?

Post by Ring0Neck »

Kappa wrote:That can only mean one thing. The first two must be of the saddleback line of pieds. :wink:
So, you're saying: They are 2 different types of pied genes, certainly morphotype perhaps even genotype (saddleback or not)
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Re: 2B or not 2B ?

Post by Kappa »

Whether they're separate mutations or just the result of selective breeding is anyones guess. Clearly the dominant pieds we see today are nothing like the ones that the Smiths were breeding back in the day. So not necessarily 2 different types of genes, but a difference in how the genes are expressed, yes.

We all breed to improve certain physical traits of our birds, and as a result I would say that we do influence the outcomes over time on, a genetic level. Since as breeders we dont follow an established standard to breed to, we have the obvious variations that come out from breeder to breeder. So not necessarily establishing new mutations, but having them evolve in different directions, depending on what individuals find as being desirable.

But you never know, whose to say that we only have one type of dominant pied.
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Re: 2B or not 2B ?

Post by Johan S »

Kappa wrote:Whether they're separate mutations or just the result of selective breeding is anyones guess. Clearly the dominant pieds we see today are nothing like the ones that the Smiths were breeding back in the day. So not necessarily 2 different types of genes, but a difference in how the genes are expressed, yes.

We all breed to improve certain physical traits of our birds, and as a result I would say that we do influence the outcomes over time on, a genetic level. Since as breeders we dont follow an established standard to breed to, we have the obvious variations that come out from breeder to breeder. So not necessarily establishing new mutations, but having them evolve in different directions, depending on what individuals find as being desirable.

But you never know, whose to say that we only have one type of dominant pied.
Kappa, I agree 100%.
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Re: 2B or not 2B ?

Post by Mikesringnecks »

Hi Ben
To my eye the yellow pigmentation in those first two birds looks far too strong for a single emerald gene. To get that shade of yellow in a Dom Pied, or anything else for that matter, opens up several possibilities including DF Emerald, IndigoEmerald, TurquoiseEmerald and possibly no emerald at all but some other yellow pigmentation mutation like Turquoise alone.
Kind regards
Mike
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Re: 2B or not 2B ?

Post by Ring0Neck »

Hi Mike,
Good points to consider.
However, as you know since you have TurqEmerald CT, adding another Parblue to emerald is going to make the bird greener not yellower.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-smKQ ... onnors.jpg
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-d5ti ... ne-001.jpg

Let's change focus on the last 2 .
I suspect they both carry Opaline
There's a few breeding pairs down this year to breed emerald opaline pieds to properly compare.
Another point we need to keep in mind when we play with pieds & opalines: i believe their phenotype to be
always changing due to pieds but MORE SO because of the opaline.

Opaline phenotype in IRNs are fairly stable/predictable but not so in other species of birds in combo with other mutations.
Why? I think the opaline does not have the right color palett/playground to do its magic, or it won't allow it.
hopefully pieds+ parblues? could provide such environment for Opaline to do its magical play of colors.
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Re: 2B or not 2B ?

Post by madas »

Ring0Neck wrote: adding another Parblue to emerald is going to make the bird greener not yellower.
But only in regions of the body which haven't lost the melanins. :D So take the cleartail mutation in combination with parblue. The higher the "green" level the yellower the melanin free regions like belly or head (male). ;)

For the rest i agree so far.

madas
Recio
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Re: 2B or not 2B ?

Post by Recio »

madas wrote:
Ring0Neck wrote: adding another Parblue to emerald is going to make the bird greener not yellower.
But only in regions of the body which haven't lost the melanins. :D So take the cleartail mutation in combination with parblue. The higher the "green" level the yellower the melanin free regions like belly or head (male). ;)

For the rest i agree so far.

madas
Hi everybody,

As Madas says, in melanin free areas ... we will just see psittacins and the bird would apeear yellow, but in dom pied birds we could also say that this yellow colour will be deeper.

It has been described in green series dom pieds birds an increase in psittacin yellowness in melanin free areas in IRN. In a general way we could even say that in melanocyte free areas there is an increase in psittacofulvine (red and yellow) production, as shown in African Greys.

In the present case I would also expect a yellower colour in the pied markings, at least in patched parblue birds, but I am not sure about the effect of Pied on Emerald. Does dom pied increase the "yellowness" of Emerald? Which would be the phenotype of a green series DF dom pied heterozygous Emerald? Ligth yellow, middle yellow or deep yellow? ... and a green series DF dom pied homozygous Emerald? ... and which colour would be the red ring: white, pink, red? would it also be wider or not? Those could be great combinations to perform uv studies, since uv induced fluorescence would not be masked by melanin.

Regards

Recio
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Re: 2B or not 2B ?

Post by John Shannon »

Ring0Neck wrote:We have 4 birds in below pic.
All 4 carry Emerald & Dom. Pied mutations
Bird's sex: L 2 R: Male; male i think; Male; Hen

It is obvious the first 2 have a diff. phenotype compared to the last 2.

Why do you think that is?

http://parakeet.me/irn/m/em/4ep.jpg
The first two are turquoise and the last two are very good indigo or emerald. The attached pictures are of only single or double factor turquoise in violet and green.
Attachments
Dominant pieds in green 2012 cock & 2013 two hens & one Cock.JPG
Dominant pieds in green 2012 cock & 2013 two hens & one Cock.JPG (61.37 KiB) Viewed 11231 times
2012 Violet green Harlequin pied 08 2013.JPG
2012 Violet green Harlequin pied 08 2013.JPG (46.53 KiB) Viewed 11231 times
Johan S
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Re: 2B or not 2B ?

Post by Johan S »

Ring0Neck wrote:Why? I think the opaline does not have the right color palett/playground to do its magic, or it won't allow it.
hopefully pieds+ parblues? could provide such environment for Opaline to do its magical play of colors.
Hi Ben, yes, unfortunately IRN breeders are going to miss out on the real magic, when opaline acts on advanced psittacins (like orange and esp. red). The rubino golden mantle (eastern) rosella shows what can be done.

In this case, I'm thinking we might be dealing with a DF emerald for the birds on the left. Granted, the third bird's head does show opaline traits.
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Re: 2B or not 2B ?

Post by Recio »

Johan S wrote:
Ring0Neck wrote:Why? I think the opaline does not have the right color palett/playground to do its magic, or it won't allow it.
hopefully pieds+ parblues? could provide such environment for Opaline to do its magical play of colors.
Hi Ben, yes, unfortunately IRN breeders are going to miss out on the real magic, when opaline acts on advanced psittacins (like orange and esp. red). The rubino golden mantle (eastern) rosella shows what can be done.

In this case, I'm thinking we might be dealing with a DF emerald for the birds on the left. Granted, the third bird's head does show opaline traits.
Hi Johan,

Which are the reasons to think that what we call Opaline mutation in IRN is the same that the Opaline mutation in other species? As you say IRN birds seem to lack the effect of Opaline on psittacins, despite the presence of both yellow and red psittacins ... and the action of Opaline on head colour seems to be quite specific respective to Opaline's actions on other parrots species. Is it enough the inheritance pattern and the wing barring to conclude that it is the same mutation? Just guessing .... :?

Regards

Recio
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Re: 2B or not 2B ?

Post by Recio »

... following the idea of Opaline IRN as the same or as a different mutation than Opaline in other parrots: How could we know if Opaline is the same mutation? If there was a parrot able to hybridaze with IRN and showing the typical effects of Opaline in psittacofulvines we could try to get a hybrid from this male Opaline parrot and an Opaline female IRN.
Possible results:
1. All the offspring (male and female) show the typical Opaline markings similarly: in this case Opaline would be the same mutation in both IRN and the other parrot.
2. There are only phenotypic female opaline offspring. Male offspring do not show Opaline markings. In this case the conclusión would be that Opaline in IRN and Opaline in that other parrot are not the same mutations.
3. There are phenotypic female opalines and intermediary opaline males. This could mean that both Opalines could be different alleles of the same gene.

This is a general idea. We could also try ot get that hybrid from an Opaline male IRN and an Opaline female parrot. The results would not be the same looking at the offspring phenotype depending on psittacin expression, but we could get similar conclusions.

Do you know if this specific parrot showing an effect of Opaline on psittacin expresssion and being able to hybridaze with IRN exist?

Regards

Recio
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Re: 2B or not 2B ?

Post by madas »

Recio wrote: Do you know if this specific parrot showing an effect of Opaline on psittacin expresssion and being able to hybridaze with IRN exist?
Maybe a plumhead??? :)

But what is wrong with the IRN opaline mutation? It shows all features to be classified as opaline. Or did i missed something???
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Re: 2B or not 2B ?

Post by Johan S »

Recio wrote:Which are the reasons to think that what we call Opaline mutation in IRN is the same that the Opaline mutation in other species? As you say IRN birds seem to lack the effect of Opaline on psittacins, despite the presence of both yellow and red psittacins ... and the action of Opaline on head colour seems to be quite specific respective to Opaline's actions on other parrots species. Is it enough the inheritance pattern and the wing barring to conclude that it is the same mutation? Just guessing .... :?

Regards

Recio
Hi Recio, I may have expressed myself incorrectly or have been misunderstood. The effect of opaline on orange and red psittacin is indeed present in IRN, it's merely a case that there is so little red psittacin to begin with, that the effect of spreading it is mostly lost. And I haven't really seen an effect of opaline on yellow psittacins, in any specie.

Have a look at the neckring of this bird. The red region is much wider than with your typical greygreen. So the spreading effect also occurs, it's just that there is so little red to spread to begin with.
Image

The opaline traits that are possible to be expressed by the IRN physiology, is indeed expressed. Down colour in (exclusively) green series offspring, head / body contrast, diluted tail with a dark spot on the tip, wing barring; all traits that are visible in IRN too. I don't think we need to worry about having the mutation correctly linked to opaline in other species.

As for the hybrid, like madas said, perhaps the plumhead? But also, no hybrids necessary, as the opaline mutation in plumheads is already established.
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Re: 2B or not 2B ?

Post by madas »

Johan S wrote: Image
Any findings on the fact that grey combined with opaline produces the best opalines regarding the opaline markers???

opaline grey:

Image
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Re: 2B or not 2B ?

Post by Johan S »

madas wrote:Any findings on the fact that grey combined with opaline produces the best opalines regarding the opaline markers???
Excellent question. I've been wondering about this too. Trying to produce a mauve opaline to compare with the grey opaline, but haven't had luck yet. Hoping this is my season. :D
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Re: 2B or not 2B ?

Post by Ring0Neck »

Johan S wrote:
madas wrote:Any findings on the fact that grey combined with opaline produces the best opalines regarding the opaline markers???
Excellent question. I've been wondering about this too. Trying to produce a mauve opaline to compare with the grey opaline, but haven't had luck yet. Hoping this is my season. :D
Looking at it in the most simplistic way it seems that Grey allows Opaline to display a blacker black and with a better contrast black/white Opaline markers are more pronounced, mauve looks to do the same thing as well.
Could it be that simple?
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Re: 2B or not 2B ?

Post by Johan S »

Ben, that's the thought and could be the reason, unless mauve doesn't display the markers as well... Then we'll go about our usual business of out of the box thinking. Will have to wait and see. :D
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Re: 2B or not 2B ?

Post by Ring0Neck »

The pic on Chris's website although it is a CT as well, still shows nicely the Opaline markers.
Hope you breed your Mauve Opaline this season (i'm jelous) :D

Image

Back on the main subject, see pic below of Phil's Pied opaline which correlates to the last 2 birds in our topic pic (just add emerald) :)

https://picasaweb.google.com/MCWaviarie ... 9972087938
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Re: 2B or not 2B ?

Post by madas »

Ring0Neck wrote: Back on the main subject, see pic below of Phil's Pied opaline which correlates to the last 2 birds in our topic pic (just add emerald) :)
For the second from the right i agree. The head looks steps darker like for the birds in the pic on Chris website.

madas
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Re: 2B or not 2B ?

Post by Ring0Neck »

madas wrote:
Ring0Neck wrote: Back on the main subject, see pic below of Phil's Pied opaline which correlates to the last 2 birds in our topic pic (just add emerald) :)
For the second from the right i agree. The head looks steps darker like for the birds in the pic on Chris website.

madas

Last bird from the left is a 7 month old hen, and yes the head color is not as dark as the cockbird's (2 y o).
Pied Opaline IMO will surprise us with diff. phenotypes being the same genotype.
I have this bird in my aviary so i'll see if head darkens after her 1 y o moult.
I can also say that i've seen young pied opaline that showed no dark head when young, at all.

PS the last 2 birds are related, bred by the same breeder in 2 diff. seasons 12 & 13.
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Re: 2B or not 2B ?

Post by Johan S »

Ring0Neck wrote:I can also say that i've seen young pied opaline that showed no dark head when young, at all.
A statement to be careful of, because it sounds like you expect a darker head colour for the opaline than the non-opaline bird. One needs to understand that opaline does not make the wildtype head darker. The head colour stays pretty much the same, but the body colour, esp. just below the neck ring, is considerably diluted. The best opalines show an almost complete yellow resp. white region here. That contrast that is created is why it appears as if the head is darker, but it actually isn't really the case. So for opaline dom. pied, one expects an even more severe dilution in body colour, but the head one should/would expect to stay pretty much the same as the wildtype, depending on the effect of the pied gene.

So, for the statement above, we shouldn't expect a darker head. Not for a young or mature bird. Just my thoughts.
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Re: 2B or not 2B ?

Post by Ring0Neck »

One needs to understand that opaline does not make the wildtype head darker. The head colour stays pretty much the same, but the body colour, esp. just below the neck ring, is considerably diluted.
Well said & I agree.

I was caught up in justifying the head color difference but otherwise same looking birds (last 2)
one would say the 2nd last bird has a darker head whereas the last bird not so much, leading me to believe it could be the age playing a part in their current phenotype.
is that not a marker you and madas pointed out to? a "darker: head V not as "dark". other than that the 2 birds are identical in real life to my eyes.
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Re: 2B or not 2B ?

Post by Johan S »

Ring0Neck wrote:is that not a marker you and madas pointed out to? a "darker: head V not as "dark". other than that the 2 birds are identical in real life to my eyes.
If by this you mean that opaline features improve with age, then definitely.
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Re: 2B or not 2B ?

Post by Ring0Neck »

Johan S wrote:
Ring0Neck wrote:Why? I think the opaline does not have the right color palett/playground to do its magic, or it won't allow it.
hopefully pieds+ parblues? could provide such environment for Opaline to do its magical play of colors.
Hi Ben, yes, unfortunately IRN breeders are going to miss out on the real magic, when opaline acts on advanced psittacins (like orange and esp. red). The rubino golden mantle (eastern) rosella shows what can be done.

..
Recio, Et alii,
Looking at Green Cheek Conures, Wildtype has a red tail however once you add Turquoise tail becomes grey/silver.
Thought: should we move away from Parblue when it comes to trying to get pink/red in IRNs?
Turquoise could act as an inhibitor of red :?
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Re: 2B or not 2B ?

Post by Recio »

Ring0Neck wrote:
Johan S wrote:
Ring0Neck wrote:Why? I think the opaline does not have the right color palett/playground to do its magic, or it won't allow it.
hopefully pieds+ parblues? could provide such environment for Opaline to do its magical play of colors.
Hi Ben, yes, unfortunately IRN breeders are going to miss out on the real magic, when opaline acts on advanced psittacins (like orange and esp. red). The rubino golden mantle (eastern) rosella shows what can be done.

..
Recio, Et alii,
Looking at Green Cheek Conures, Wildtype has a red tail however once you add Turquoise tail becomes grey/silver.
Thought: should we move away from Parblue when it comes to trying to get pink/red in IRNs?
I think so. Parblues will show descreased psittacine and red psittacins only appear in birds showing a high level of psittacins. I would work in lutinos strains +/- DF Dom pied +/- "red birds" +/- opaline combinations.

Recio
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Re: 2B or not 2B ?

Post by Johan S »

Ring0Neck wrote:Recio, Et alii,
Looking at Green Cheek Conures, Wildtype has a red tail however once you add Turquoise tail becomes grey/silver.
Thought: should we move away from Parblue when it comes to trying to get pink/red in IRNs?
Turquoise could act as an inhibitor of red :?
Ben, I think what also plays a role here is that it is only in IRN that we distinguish between different types of parblues. If you take GCC and quakers, for example, I'd not call their parblues turquoise per se, but would rather start up a discussion about whether they are turquoise or indigo (the latter being the parblue where red isn't visible).

To answer your question, I do think so. Indigo and turquoise will not assist with getting red, esp. indigo. I wouldn't write of turquoise completely though, as it might produce the peach to pink transition.
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