Dom Pied Possibiliy being Same As Spangled Budgie Mutation

[Indian Ringneck Vic]

Is it possible that the dom pied in Australia is actually the same mutation as the spangle in the budgie this theory has been air'd in Deon's book and is widely speculated here in Aus amongst some of our long term IRN breeders there are simularities when you look at these colour morphs in budgies ( in the DF budgie ) that sometimes looses all it's spangle affect and there was thought to be another seriers in Australia that was particularly phenotypical to another mutation being the dilute or citron this in the DF is identical to the spangle budgie the late JS worked on these birds without success for years I often wonder if his citron was not a citron thou phenotyple to dilute however it may have been not genotypical and may well been a spangle your thoughts would be appreciated. Deon does show pics and illustrations of feathers that in my opinion go a long way to supporting this theory.

I originaly posted this on another thread and Johan directed me to a thread posted in Feb which thou informative tended to confuse the issue with a variety of other mutations and species I would be interested if we can have a discussen that is based on the dom pied IRN and try not diviating to grizzles etc.

There are other reasons : inheritance pattern and increased psittacin fluorescence in both species.

As Recio touched on above it is probable that the IRN mutation is genotypical the same thou phenotypical different to the spangle budgie and we need to be careful not to be confused by what we see as the term spangle is being applied to feather structure. John Shannon your input would be much appreciated.

[Chriskoi]

Hi,

in alexandrines we have the spangle mutation too.

hetereozyguos:



homozyguos:



note the slight green on the head same as in the df dom. pied IRN.

greetings.

[madas]

Is it possible that the dom pied in Australia is actually the same mutation as the spangle in the budgie this theory has been air'd in Deon's book and is widely speculated here in Aus amongst some of our long term IRN breeders there are simularities when you look at these colour morphs in budgies ( in the DF budgie ) that sometimes looses all it's spangle affect and there was thought to be another seriers in Australia that was particularly phenotypical to another mutation being the dilute or citron this in the DF is identical to the spangle budgie the late JS worked on these birds without success for years I often wonder if his citron was not a citron thou phenotyple to dilute however it may have been not genotypical and may well been a spangle your thoughts would be appreciated. Deon does show pics and illustrations of feathers that in my opinion go a long way to supporting this theory.

I originaly posted this on another thread and Johan directed me to a thread posted in Feb which thou informative tended to confuse the issue with a variety of other mutations and species I would be interested if we can have a discussen that is based on the dom pied IRN and try not diviating to grizzles etc.

There are other reasons : inheritance pattern and increased psittacin fluorescence in both species.

As Recio touched on above it is probable that the IRN mutation is genotypical the same thou phenotypical different to the spangle budgie and we need to be careful not to be confused by what we see as the term spangle is being applied to feather structure. John Shannon your input would be much appreciated.

Dilute is some times called citron here in Europe too.

[Indian Ringneck Vic]

Chriskoi your reply has stunned me those birds are fantastic I never expected this result your SF Alex's are phenotypical to the green harliquins of years ago and your DF Alex's are phenotypical of the birds we thought were citrons your input go's a longway to the dom pied IRN's being spangles. I must ask are those birds pure Alex's I've got to have some.

[Chriskoi]

I must ask are those birds pure Alex's I've got to have some.

Not my bird but to my knowledge they are pure Alexadrines (wild taken). The hetereozyguos ones is the pair all spangle Alexadrine were come from. Perhaps Lee can tell us some more infos regarding these bird because he has much more experience with alexandrines then me.

[Indian Ringneck Vic]

Lee thankyou for your contrbution my motivation for starting this thread is to learn and I value your input as you have done the hard yards and I am keen to explore your views further . First I have no experience with the grizzle thou I'm led to believe this mutation appeared in Australia long before the dom pied and due to it's unstable nature it never became popular with fanciers here although I've been told the odd fancier did try to establish it as mutation .The dom pied first appeared in the Smith bro's averies around the late 1990's where it was developed by them up to it's release to the public shortly after the middle of last decade some time during it's debut a second mutation appeared that was thought to be the dilute (citron) which other than a handful of specimens proved to be unsucessful . My question is when you say that you believe that the dom pied irn and the spangle alex's are not the same mutation is that because expession difference between the species or differences in patternation or both ? Is the dom pied irn to be catergorised as something else ? Regards Paul

[John Shannon]

Hi Paul
These Harlequin pieds look very close to spangles.
Attached are some pictures I took today of my 2012 Green pied cock and he is in molt. Also two of three green pieds I have breed in 2013 from the same parents.
One special feature was that they do not have a blue tail as did the 2012 green cock in his first year. in this molt 2013 December I can now see too blue Dilute tail feathers.
I don't know If we would be allowed to show page 431 of T and G.J.J Bastiaan book Asiatic Parrots and There Mutations of a Alexanderine 0-1 "spangle" green.
These green pieds have very similar features.
Your thought john Shannon.

[Indian Ringneck Vic]

Ok we've had some opinions for and against wether the dom pied irn is or is not a the same as the spangle budgie . Before we close this post off I would prefer the non Aus fanciers to view Johns photo's above because these birds are typical to the original stock of the Smith brothers that they worked on before thier release to the public note the spangling effect in the flight feathers is visible in all 3 birds these birds also retain nice rich head colour when viewing the adult bird in the bottom photo there is reasonable body colour in both the yellow and green regions the feather shafts in the tail show evidence of being gorged with melancites I mention this because these features have been lost to some extent in the later dom pieds that were produced after they were released to the public.

[Ring0Neck]

I mention this because these features have been lost to some extent in the later dom pieds that were produced after they were released to the public

Paul,
Would you have pics of green series pieds that have lost the "features" ? to compare V John's.
A mutation should not mutate/change itself unless other modifiers are added/taken away.
In blue series we could say the same about the Pallid.

PS: I have seen from a breeder in WA 2 phenotypes of green pied series birds, from the same pair.
clearly a modifier is added or deducted IMO.

[Johan S]

Paul, I do not know of a pied type that doesn't display some variation, so for me it isn't much of a surprise that the harlequins changed phenotype to some extend. This change/variation is also very observable for adm recessive pied, and also present in dominant pieds in other species. Selective breeding will bring about a whole range of different "sub"-phenotypes. I think Ben hits it on the nail, and that modifiers are the usual suspects.

However, the spangled effect in my opinion is the nicest, as it is a unique trade for a mutation in IRN. It produces a better edged effect than even the SL dominant edged mutation. A spangled cobalt violet harlequin will simply be magic!

[Ring0Neck]

I just took a pic of my Harlequin Pablue young 2013 bred.
Choosing the right partner to a Harlequin makes all the diff.



closeup

[Indian Ringneck Vic]

Johan
My comment the phenotype of the dom pied was not mean't to be a condemnation of the change of phenotype that took place after the Smith brothers release it the comment was made to Lee's reply that he considered the dom pied not to be a spangle due to the lack of spangle and clear tails that a lot of dom pieds now exhibit what I was referring to was the new breeders had pushed there efforts to creating new morph types that exhibit clear body clear flight etc these latter phenotypes do move away from spangling thou I consider them to have been influenced by modifying genes and therefore not be suitable for use in this model. When the exports from Australia took place these modified versions were all the fashion here and I suspect a lot of these are what people on your side of the world are basing their opinion on. I hope this explains my position.

Quote - When you compare the green spangle alex to the green dom pied irn the bicolor spangling of feathers on the wing and back is evident in the alex but the irn appears more a yellow green dilution in both cocks and hens. I truly expect to see the irn duplicating this bicolor spangling and do not see a reason for this not to recur.

Regards
Paul

[Indian Ringneck Vic]

Lee thankyou for your post what I found encouraging is we both have the same mode of operation I thought the trend here in Australia was to breed away from spangling in pursuit of creating a more rarer or valuable morph and visit any bird sale here and you will see plenty of disgarded washed out dom pieds that result in a very low clearence rate for thier owners . However this is a very robust mutation that I"m sure will reward owner's with what ever there goals are. One thing you touched on that is very important to me is history of a mutation and I know this is a genetics site however it does perplex me how a mutation can be analysed without having a set standard for that mutation to be used as a base. I have been breeding birds for over 50 years now and this is the only fancy that does'nt empathize this discipline roll: I know that I run the risk of being shund a heretic on this site thou I do have a problem with this hence my post on Emerald that upset a few forum menbers. Pherhaps someone would be kind enough to start a thread on this subject.

[John Shannon]

I just took a picture with a UV light from bunnings of my 2013 green dom pieds and an unrelated Violet blue dom pied. The two greens look different to me (look at the necks )

[Indian Ringneck Vic]

Hi Lee the question remains I agree with your observations of birds with regard to amount of pattern visible (spangle) however this needs to be in context with the development of the mutation plus the normal variation between pied individuals I believe as the mutation is developed these indicators will be lost as the amount of melanin is reduced.I refer you to Deon's book pages 118 onward there is the underlined information in a nut shell.