IndianRingNeck.com

Hi all,
I'm new to this forum and to any kinda blog in general, so please bare with me if I mispost or don't do it properly.

My baby Dante is about 6 weeks old. I've grown very fond of him and I truly love this bird.
My girlfriend got him from a petshop about 2 weeks ago for me.
He looked under nourished and very thin and fraile. His feathers weren't growing out properly and he was very scared of noises and people in general. His feathers grew longer on some parts of his body and not on some parts at all.
His wings for example has had bits growing long and not at at all on his chest.
2 weeks later and he's growing nicely, getting stronger by the day, though I'm trying to get him to a vet.
His feathers are growing more evenly and his more confident.
He gets excited to see me and even runs to me if I leave him out in the room.

Does anyone know what may be the cause of the feather loss?
And also, does anyone know what color mutation is he?

I truly would appreciate any input.

Below are some recent pictures from the 27/11/2013.

Thanks all!

He does look younger than 6 weeks to me. I would be getting him to an avian vet quick smart to get some tests done. Are you hand feeding the baby? I think it probably needs it. If you aren't I would get to that immediately. I'm also going to move this thread to the breeding section so that the breeders see this message.

Also if you have any other birds in the house, and possibly young children, I would isolate the bird from them just in case it does have a disease that is commutable until you've had the vet check.

Ellie.

For more info on hand feeding and weaning, go here:
http://www.indianringneck.com/forum/vie ... ?f=1&t=799

Ellie.

Hello riccardo.southafrica,

Before I tell you what I believe the problem is, I must agree with ellieelectrons about taking your bird to the vet. It's very important because, though he does not look to have any terminal illnesses, lab work will be the only true way to officially rule out if anything is wrong with the little fellow.

Now, here is what I think the problem is. Was the baby left with its mother prior to you pulling it for hand feeding? If so, sometimes, mother ringnecks will pluck their own chick's feathers before they fledged. Some ringneck mothers will do this on the wings, the back of head, or sometimes even the tail.

The only thing you can do now is just comfort and help the baby ringneck wean. He is still very young and his beak has not fully grown. Some will wean around 12-14 weeks.

Hope this helps !

Best Wishes, IMRAN-C

@AlphaWolf - Hand feeding him baby formula at the moment. 3 - 4 feeds a day of 3 x 5ml syringes. Feeding him something called AVIPLUS Phase 2 - 2 weeks to ± 6 weeks. Thanks for the input Wolf.
@Ellieelectrons - Thanks for fixing up my post.
Well, I'm gonna get him to an avian vet tomorrow. When we got him, the lady at the pet shop said he's something like 4 weeks old.
Hand feeding him, as mentioned above. And I live on my own, with relatives coming over every 2 weeks or so. Thank you for the help Ellie.
@ImranC - Thanks for the info. Honestly, I have no clue, I'll have to call the petshop and check with the lady on how old he was when he was pulled away from his mother. He seems pretty healthy, with the exception of his feathers. He's a little shy, but gaining confidence every day. Feathers seem to be growing, except on those spots that I mentioned. Well let's see what the vet says. He's about 6 weeks old now according to the lady we got him from. He certainly has an appetite so I'm hoping for some good news. Will keep you updated.

Thanks for the responses guys. Its truly appreciated to have this kinda advice and support.

riccardo.southafrica, I hope it is a case of severe feather pluck from the parent. A better pic of his belly and parsons nose would be helpful, does he feel a normal body temperature when you hold him in your hand or would you think he feels hot. Let us know of the vets assessement and recommendations, all the best.

Thanks Bennjamin. I hope so too.
He feels warm, not hot. His temperature feels fine.
I've attached some pics now. 2 of when I first got him and a couple from this morning.
See what you guys can make out.

So we got back from the vet today and he's taken feather samples for testing. He says its possible feather disease. Won't know for sure until the tests come back.
F***. Feel so down now.

Chin up. Hopefully he'll be ok.
Good of you to take this baby under your wing.
Try to stay positive

Then go back and slap the pet-shop forward and back...........


Will

Thanks for the support guys. Let's see how he goes.
Will keep you updated.

I'm sure he will be all fine. He looks so cute.

Ash

Praying for baby Dante!!!

Try to stay positive. It doesn't look to be caused by the worst thing out there...PBFD. So that's a positive right there. How do his droppings look? Color, consistency, frequency, broken or solid?? And most importantly, is he losing any feathers?? Like IMRAN said, some parents will pluck their babies, but I also feel that if the baby was pulled too young and not fed often enough, he could just be delayed in feathering. Keep doing what you're doing...he already looks much better than when you first brought him home for his mutation...I would say possibly creamino (turquoise Ino) please keep us updated

Hi all,
Little buttercup & skyes crew - thanks for the support guys, it means a lot.

The vet called with the results - and not for the better.
Its beak and feather disease.
The test that was done was to check for that. Apparently he ruled out any other possibility of it being anything else.

That was the worst thing to hear.
It was truly heartbreaking.

I've done some reading and apparently the disease symptoms include loss of appetite and lethargy - which he displayed yesterday evening and prominently this morning.
The vet says we need to bring him in to discuss on how to continue.
He sits in his cage/box (the box is lined with cloth and wood shavings in it and a toy, which is for cold nights) and he doesn't do much. He chirps occasionally where as before hed make a big noise.
Sadly I knew something was wrong this morning when I was about to feed him. He normally makes a noise when I mix his formula. All he did was sat there today.
My girlfriend went over to feed him around midday today, which he had one feed but that was it.
He sat, fell asleep. Woke up, walked around and fell asleep again.
He doesn't have the heavy onset of the disease - his beak and feathers are intact.

I don't mean to sound emotional and what not, though this is very heartsore for me.
I have grown very attached to him and to me, its comparable to hearing someone you care for has cancer or worse.

Perhaps most people may not understand and its a little weird to say it (or type it) out loud, but I love this bird.
All life is beautiful and worthy to be protected.
That's why I'm glad my girlfriend got him for me, he needed rescuing.
Unfortunately, we can't do anything at this point, we couldn't save him from the disease.
So for now, I'm making him as comfortable as possible.

Saturday we go to the vet to see how's our way forward look.
I just wanna say thanks to all for the support and kind words.
Much love.

Just got home and went to see him. Opened his cage and he literally ran and jumped on me.
Considering the fact that he couldn't breathe and still did that, I am truly amazed by him.

Sat with him while he struggled to breathe. Couldn't make a sound.
Struggling to catch air.
Resting on my chest.

Sat with him, not going anywhere.
Put a box lid out, laid a shirt in it and used a big warm dry towel to cover most of him apart from his face.

His lungs slowly trying to draw breath. Short deep gasps.
Eyes closing slowly. Can't lift his body.
Silent.
Completely silent.

RIP Dante.
I love you my pet and I will miss you dearly.

I am so sorry.
You and your girlfriend did a great job making his short life as good as possible.

I agree with molossus, you guys shouldn't have had to go through that at all!

::: I am so sorry. You have done a very brave thing by taking him in and making the most of his last days. I did not even believe it was beak and feather. Pet shops make me so angry. Take comfort in the fact that Dante is flying high over the rainbow bridge right now. Poor little one

Hi guys,

I just want to say very sincerely, thank you for the kind words.
This whole experience was and is very personal to me.
What started out as just a pet parrot brought home from a petshop turned into me building a relationship, with a close friend and companion.
I have no respect for petshops that sell animals for the sake of profit and nothing else.
I've been to a couple petshops where the animals were in such bad conditons it was unreal.

I'm glad I had Dante for the short while that I did.
I'm also glad that we could make his short life a little easier.
Ultimately I have found that there's something more to this life, something more ethereal.
I developed a different kind of bond and relationship with him, that I'm sure a lot of other owners can understand.
I am still however saddened at the loss of a life.
Its still very personal to me.
But thank you molossus, skyes and intheair.
I appreciate the kind words.

I'm not sure if I'll get another ringneck anytime soon.
Think I'm just sad I had to lose him.
I still love these birds and find the whole genetic color mutations and personalities of each bird to be beautiful, so I'll still be keen on them as always.
We'll see how the future goes.
But thanks again to all for the kind words and support.
Much love.

My heart actually clenched when I read that he had PBFD... that is awful, I'm so sorry. In some places, pet shops that sell pets with diseases like PBFD and psittacosis (I believe even humans are susceptible to the latter) can actually be reported/sued/inspected/shut down. Perhaps it's worth looking into, for the sake of protecting both other birds and other potential buyers?

Hope I'm not coming off as disrespectful, but I would actually recommend adopting another bird when you feel ready. You'd be surprised at how much forming a bond with a new bird will help you. You might think it would feel like 'replacing' Dante, but you're not - you have plenty of love and caring to give out. My poor budgie died out of the blue in September, and I would still be struggling to move on if my friend had not called and told me a lady who didn't know anything about birds wanted to rehome her IRN.

May you heal quickly.

PS. Trust me, every single person here knows what you mean when you talk about loving your bird.

I'm sorry too Riccardo, l used be the manager of a pet shop and it is a typical thing they do is to sell birds too young. Are you going to have a post mortem done? Another problem you get with pet shops is that they cram too many birds into a cage and some suffer very badly. and it is the ones that look hard done by that get most sympathy and are most likely to be bought. I agree with electonegative, Riccardo you shoud buy another ringneck from a dealer this time, l heard that Alexandrines are dying out because too many have been taken as babies and mine is green so a new ringneck in a different colour would not be disrespectful to Dante's memory. You could go back to the petshop and demand your money back or you would expose them for selling under age and ill birds. They would rather pay you than have the bad publicity.
AJPeter

I wouldn't hesitate to call someone about the pet shop. Think about all of the other birds that may have been exposed.

I'm so sorry for your loss.
...........

I agree- the correct channels need to be contacted about the petshop.

electronegative wrote:but I would actually recommend adopting another bird when you feel ready. You'd be surprised at how much forming a bond with a new bird will help you.

I would hold back from getting another bird for awhile- Circovirus can last up to a year in its environment without a host. Not worth the risk imo.

Oh I didn't mean right away - but certainly the point about lingering diseases is a good one.

Riccardo, I'm soooo sorry to hear about that...... Sure Dante is resting in peace now. Good on you to make the last days of his life comfortable and you made him happy. You let him have a decent end. I feel that the petshop should be exposed rather than take your money back, or both. Which petshop did you buy Dante from? I see you from South Africa, which area are you?

Ash

@electronegative - I read about PBFD sometime ago and I prayed it wasnt that. Unfortunately my fears were realised when we got back the test results.
Honestly, i would love to get another ringneck sometime, but as sheyd mentioned, the recurrence of another bird contracting that awful disease is not worth the risk. It truly is heartbreaking to watch your beloved companion break down slowly by slowly each day.

@Skyes_crew - How do i go about reporting this? Are there relevant breeding authorities? I want to call the petshop and make my point. I dont care about the money spent at this point. What i am concerned about is the well being of the other birds and animals as a result of that negligent petshop owner.
Any tips for this?

@Little Buttercup - I do want to get this person exposed. The problem is letting people like this get away. The result being petshops which have animals/birds that are abused and neglected.
I went to this one petshop for supplies two weeks ago, it was small and smelly, the lights werent working properly and the owner left for lunch. I saw a couple baby ringnecks which looked very small and neglected - dirty feathers, kept in a fishtank with uncleaned nesting.
Frightening.
Im from Pietermaritzburg, KZN.
Where about you from Little Buttercup?

Riccardo, the only way pet shops like that will stop existing, is when they have no suppliers. Unfortunately some breeders will sell their animals to any pet shop just to make money. I'm not sure how you should proceed as I am I the U.S. maybe molossus can give some input here.

You're right sky, thats very true.
As much as wed like to save or prevent other animals from suffering at the hands of those who are looking to make a quick buck, theres only so much we can do.
I wish people would open their eyes though.

Riccardo, you can send me a private message using the PM button and I will put you in touch with a reputable breeder in Pmb. As for taking up another ringneck, the season is long gone and babies will soon be a thing of the past for this summer.

You can use a product called Virukill to disinfect the areas where your baby came in touch with. You'll find it at petshops selling Avi products. Burn everything disposable that you used. You don't want that stuff ending up on a garbage heap where our native birds are plentiful.

Unfortunately, I don't know of any effective recourse in SA. Speak to the owner. And take the lab and vet report with. At least he'll probably stop buying from the guilty breeder. It's not much, but better than nothing.

And sorry about your loss! It is a terrible thing to suffer through, both for the bird and the owner.

Hi Johan,

Thanks for the kind words and advice.
I also took into account that Dantes items would be infected and have managed to burn most of the stuff already to avoid any other birds being infected. Its just his cage now i have here at home.
Yeah i figured that this season is about done.
I just sent you a pm.

riccardo.southafrica wrote:Hi Johan,

Thanks for the kind words and advice.
I also took into account that Dantes items would be infected and have managed to burn most of the stuff already to avoid any other birds being infected. Its just his cage now i have here at home.
Yeah i figured that this season is about done.
I just sent you a pm.

You can wash down the cage with a good disinfectant a couple of times. Make sure you get every corner and nook. If you have a large container and can submerge the entire cage, even better. But be sure to apply some elbow grease as well, esp at the bottom to remove every trace of old droppings.

I've sent you the details. Hope you come right. Otherwise travel to Pta; I have three little critters looking for new homes. The only thing almost comparable to bad sellers are bad buyers. I've had a guy book babies more than a month ago, who constantly nagged me for updates; only to disappear from the face of the earth when I told him to come and collect his birds. Three days now with no word. What on earth is up with these people?

Riccardo, I'm from Gauteng, Vaal Triangle. Thank God that petshop is not near me. I was worried because i'm looking for a cockatiel, and saw this one petshop in the adverts selling parent raised babies. But they a bit of a distance from me so I didn't get to see them as yet, only spoke by phone to the petshop manager.

Ash

Johan thats how people are at times.
Il be sure to give the cage a good cleaning and scrub, thanks for the heads up.
Buttercup, i understand your concern. Some petshops just dont care, plain and simple. Its all money for them and nothing else.
Maybe its worth looking for a private seller/breeder?

Hi guys,

So i called the petshop today.
I told the owner that i purchased a ringneck from her a couple weeks back, to which she replied she remembered as i showed a keen interest in a couple of their birds.
I then told her the bird we purchased from her had gotten sick and was diagnosed with having beak and feather disease after being taken to a vet.
Her initial reaction was surprise and denial of them keeping birds that were infected.
She maintains her supplying breeders generally keep the birds in very well kept conditions.
I offered to bring over the report from the vet, which scared her abit.
She said it wasnt necessary and will contact her breeder and husband for clarification on this.
She also tried telling me that they get their birds from breeders and bla bla bla.....
My response was this -
Its her onus as a human being to ensure that the animals they keep are taken care of.
Its also their responsibility to ensure that the animals they sell are in good health as i personally had invested alot of money, time and most importantly myself into having this bird taken home.
She said shed understood and would call me back.

After about 10 minutes i received a call stating that shed spoken to her husband and would be looking into it further.
She also offered to replace the chick that died while in my care as a result of the disease that had stricken him.
All in all, she sounded fairly empathetic towards what happened.

My main objective was to get the petshop to take responsibility for the health of their birds/animals.
I do not know in future if that will always be the case, but im glad that i didnt sit and do nothing about what happened.
As for the little critter that they offered me to provide a home for, i have my concerns.
I do love these birds though.

To everyone that offered advice and input, i wouldnt have done this without you.
Thank you.

Good on you for taking it up with them!

I would think all their birds need to be tested for PBFD, as far as I know the incubation period for the disease can vary (?) and budgies and lovebirds can recover completely to become asymptomatic carriers of the disease. If I am wrong about the incubation time, someone please correct me.

I really hope they would stop selling birds and try to notify anyone who has bought birds from them since the infected bird/s were there until they have isolated and contained the problem. It is heartbreaking enough that you had to go through that! It would have been even worse if you had bought your baby as a friend for another bird and infected your flock.

I don't know how good their hygiene practices are, but going on the local pet shops here who seem to use a very low grade disinfectant on cages, I'd be a bit cautious of anything coming from that shop.

I too am very happy for you taking a stand against that pet shop. It may be that they had no idea. But now they do...and maybe they'll stop getting birds from that particular supplier. It's progress

As for another bird from them...I would politely decline. The risk as Claire stated, is too great of having to go through it all over again. There may still be some reputable breeders with some late season babies. I would also see if you could print out some info to give to them about disinfecting the areas that were exposed in the pet shop. Normal cleaners are not going to do the trick.

Claire, unfortunately the incubation period does vary. Most baby birds will display symptoms early on. Adult birds that are exposed can be carriers. And others can carry the disease and not have it reveal itself until the bird is under a stressful situation. We had PBFD here years ago, back then it was called French molt, but it was eradicated. So now we have to ask for our birds to be tested at the vets. I think it should be a standard test. But I've also heard that if a bird is just a carrier, it doesn't always show up in the test.

So sad to say - this advert on gumtree - it looks as if this may baby may have the exact same condition.....

http://www.gumtree.co.za/a-birds/isipin ... 0199993709

Sorry if I'm not seeing it, but that baby in the ad looked normal to me...a little young to be sold off, but otherwise healthy looking.

If you look at the second pic, you can see his feathers have only half come through on his head and he is very bald and patchy looking all over. I myself personally have never seen a baby at that age look tatty like that? His wing feathers also look odd, in all my babies i have ever had, ive never know one to look like that. Im not saying there is anything wrong with the bird, it just doesnt look to be in the best of feather condition

That bird was plucked by the parents before it was removed for handrearing.

So sorry for you and your girlfriend's loss. Dante was a beautiful little bird.

Ellie.

I am glad you stood up to the pet shop, l hope you won't mind me telling the story how when l was a manager of pet shop we had a two day guarantee on birds we sold. The resson it was only 2 days was becasue birds could die if left in a draft and a lady bought an african grey off us and brought it back dead 10 days later. The pet shop owner's son then 24 refused to give her money back untiil she came back with her son. A big lad. She got her money back!
AJPeter

riccardo.southafrica wrote: Maybe its worth looking for a private seller/breeder?

imo- it's the only way to go.

You get dodgy dealers just as you get pet shop maniacs, it is caveat emptor, let the buyer beware, check out how the birds are maintained, are the seed containers full, are the cages clean, is the floor clean and on and on.
AJPeter

Thanks very much Ellie. He truly was something else.
Don't mind at all AJ. This petshop we got Dante from is privately owned by this couple. They refuse to part with the money that was paid to them and I'm not going to take another bird from them.
I'm not a person that likes to make a big fight about things, but I believe what's fair is fair.
I mean come on now, if you're dealing with pets, be human enough to look after the animals and sell them in a healthy condition- people get attached to animals, they become a part of ones family.
One of my friends who's a breeder, (he doesn't have any handreared birds left or I would of taken one from him, and from who we also got my girlfriends turquoise ringneck) refuses to sell any unless he knows the birds are healthy.

I actually just reported a pet shop to the animal cruelty sector of my city's police department. The birds were all stuffed into tiny cages - 20 budgies in a super small cage - the ringnecks had no tails because their cages were so small, and I am quite sure a few cockatiels had PBFD. All the birds were in a single room, too, so if they did have PBFD I am afraid all the birds have been exposed, if not infected...

I wanted to adopt all of them, but I don't have the money nor the time nor the space to take care of even one extra bird. Wish there was something more I could do. I'm glad you did what you could for the pet shop that sold you Dante.

Electro, I for one am glad that you reported them.
It is cruel and just evil.
I wonder about the people who do those kinds of things, whether they have any respect for life at all.
I hope your reporting them will yield some results, please let us know if they do.

From my side, id like to make a bit of an announcement.
My girlfriend who had seen how broken i was after what happened with Dante, decided to try and make me believe again.
She brought home a 3 week old grey indian ringneck.
He is beautiful. And my girlfriend is as beautiful as she is thoughtful and caring.
She keeps him during the day and I get to see him in the evenings when I see her.

My question to all - When would it be safe to bring him home?
I have cleaned my flat and burnt all of the old stuff. The cage I bought for Dante is still new as we used it for 4 days before he passed away.
Advice?

http://www.f10biocare.co.uk/dr.html
You can probably buy it locally. It's very safe for birds and people and doesn't smell too bad for a disinfectant.

Good luck with your new bird!

Riccardo, locally you'll find a product called Virukill in petshops stocking Avi products. That'll do the trick.