Urgent help needed regarding digestive problem

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rritoch
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Urgent help needed regarding digestive problem

Post by rritoch »

Hello,

We took our 9 day old baby IRN to the Vet today because it is having problems defecating, and the crop didn't empty. The Vet told us the bird wasn't fully formed and is missing an anus. This doesn't seem right, the hole we see, while bloated, and obviously in bad shape, is in the same exact location as the hole in our healthy IRN. The Vet informed us that having an anus created surgically wasn't an option because the baby wouldn't survive it.

We're separating it from the parent(s), and we're going to try to feed it a liquid diet temporarily (Pedeolite) to try to fix this issue. The vet only suggested keeping it in the brooder, but my own instincts tell me that that isn't going to solve the problem. We're also going to crush up some anti-biotics and feed them to the baby. This is an urgent issue and needs treatment, I'm not a DVM, but I can clearly see there is a problem here that needs to be treated and I'm not buying the excuse that this bird doesn't have an anus.

What can we do? This is the best Avian Vet we know of, so this baby is in serious danger.

www (dot) ralphndiaritoch (dot) info /images/20130926_115311.jpg

Sorry but I can't post the image here due to recent account changes.

[edit] Ok we have some progress here. My wife was able to clear out the area, she was able to squeeze it out, with the babies assistance. The only remaining problem is the baby isn't processing the crop. We've In addition to some anti-biotics, we gave him some hot pedialyte and will continue feeding him pedialyte occasionally until the crop is completely empty. It does look like the crop is finally starting to empty.

[edit] Baby threw up after consuming most of the Pedialyte in the most recent feeding. The crop is now only half full with formula. I think this is positive progression but it is clear this baby is very sick. I'll keep posting updates, but it seems we're out of the danger zone. He is now becoming more active, and is making noise again, and the redness around the anus has gone away. Every time it defecates the anus "baloons" a little. The feces is mostly liquid so I think the pedialyte is passing through him quickly, and hopefully taking the infection with it.
Johan S
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Re: Urgent help needed regarding digestive problem

Post by Johan S »

The vet was right, a bird has a cloaca and not an anus. :D Apologies for trying to lighten the mood if taken the wrong way.

As for the chick, you need to try and find some lactated Ringer's solution. Your pharmacy should stock it. It is a booster mix usually provided intravenously, but in this case you drip a few drops into the chicks mouth to hydrate it. Massage the crop lightly to mix and dilute the food on the inside. It should hopefully clear the crop in a few hours and provide much needed fluids and electrolytes during this time. Keep using this until the crop has completely cleared of old food. Then start feeding a very diluted feed. Dilute the feed for the first few feedings with the Ringer's solution rather than water. This is also a good time to re-introduce some probiotics. Since you are stopping at the pharmacy, perhaps they can advise on some probiotics to boost the bacteria in the digestive track. In all likelihood, the cause of the crop blockage (you can google sour crop for more information) could be the custom feeding mix that you made, that might be too coarse and hard to digest to begin with. For the first two weeks, the mix need to be very smooth and easily digestible ("porridge like"). Also make sure the chick isn't eating the nesting material that will block the digestive track as well. If this is the case, use a coarser material (wood shavings, fine chips and hay, rather than saw dust; one should never use dust).

Hope this helps.
rritoch
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Re: Urgent help needed regarding digestive problem

Post by rritoch »

@molossus, that is a nice theory accept for the fact that the parents haven't been feeding them much at all, we've taken over the hand feeding.

As for the formula we use, the other, and younger, baby is eating the same exact food and hasn't had a problem. What we are feeding them is exactly what has been suggested to us by local breeders. This doesn't appear to be a crop problem, yet, as the baby is simply having digestive problems, which are probably going to escalate into crop problems.

Regardless, we will be taking the advise of Johan, and also adding a drop of vinegar to the feed just in-case there is a bacterial infection. The parents have not been doing a good job, they've stepped on the babies repeatedly, and haven't been feeding them well. If it wasn't for how young they are we would have removed them completely, but the mother does sit on them to keep them warm, and I trust that over the brooder.

@molossus, I do appreciate your advice, and we will try it on the next breeding, but for this case we're going to stick with hand-feeding because the parents can't be trusted. We've also been feeding the parents foods that were specifically suggested by other breeders, unfortunately I haven't yet been able to reach those breeders. Either way, both birds are on the same diet, and this is the fathers 3rd time breeding, so he should know what he's doing by now. It is only us, and the mother, that are new to this.

We did just get some feces from this sickly baby, and it is clearly constipated.
rritoch
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Re: Urgent help needed regarding digestive problem

Post by rritoch »

Johan S wrote: Also make sure the chick isn't eating the nesting material that will block the digestive track as well. If this is the case, use a coarser material (wood shavings, fine chips and hay, rather than saw dust; one should never use dust).

Hope this helps.
This seems like a possibility. We're using nesting material provided to us by the pet store. I'm not sure what is in it but it looks and feels like very soft wood shavings. It is also the same material used for other pets such as guinnea pigs.
rritoch
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Re: Urgent help needed regarding digestive problem

Post by rritoch »

I fed the baby some Ringers Solution and it was the first time he has stood up all day, so things are improving. The pharmacy gave me Relestal for a pro-biotic which doesn't seem right to me. Can Relestal help with this? I also wasn't able to find cider vinegar, only Cane Vinegar. Will that help?
rritoch
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Re: Urgent help needed regarding digestive problem

Post by rritoch »

My wife is saying there is puss coming out of his cloaca. I'll do some more research on this but as far as I can tell, adding a drop of vinegar to his food once his crop is empty could help. We'll also continue with the anti-biotics until this clears up. Our vet has been able to help us with our birds in the past, but I don't think she knows anything about baby birds. She was surprised the bird didn't have any feathers yet, so she probably primarily deals with chickens.
Johan S
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Re: Urgent help needed regarding digestive problem

Post by Johan S »

Persist with the use of Ringers to clear the crop. I don't know the probiotic suggested by your pharmacist, so I can't advise there. Maybe look for the Interflora range? Alternatively, I've used plain/unflavoured Bulgarian yogurt with good results, although some might argue that diary isn't a good idea, but I've never had a problem. I'm not an expert in this area, but to me the vinegar sounds detrimental to what one would like to achieve with probiotics. If the idea is that vinegar will affect the ("bad") bacterial infection, it surely will affect the "good" bacteria in the same way.

I don't think you should disregard Molossus' advice at this stage, the intention is well, although the ALL CAPS is annoying. Forgive him, he is an old timer... :P I should now run and hide. :lol: But seriously, he pointed out a problem with the diet of the parents, but you really should pay attention to the fact that pretty much all crop problems arise from the food the chick gets. And here it doesn't matter if it is/isn't from the parents, that is besides the point. Point being, there is a problem with the food. I mentioned this in my previous post too, I think your mix is wrong. Take into account that the chick doesn't have a fully active digestive system in the first two weeks. Like everything else with the chick, it develops at a rapid rate in the first weeks. The parents digest a lot of the food partially for them, and they are fed with "crop milk" (don't know if that term exists or not). In parent raised birds you can very clearly see this in the crop as a very smooth mix, with bits of seed only becoming visible at 12+ days. I am not an expert at hand raising birds without the correct ready made mixes, some others could hopefully advise. But in your case, I'd probably be heading to a convenience store and look for some baby purity. Again, I'm no expert, but it probably also contain some probiotics.
ellieelectrons
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Re: Urgent help needed regarding digestive problem

Post by ellieelectrons »

rritoch wrote:I also wasn't able to find cider vinegar, only Cane Vinegar.
I just wanted to say that here in Australia cider vinegar is sold at the supermarket, not the pharmacy. Just thought I'd mention it in case you were looking in the wrong place.

I wish I had something other than that to contribute to this conversation, but I don't have any knowledge whatsoever. You are in some very capable hands with Johan and Molossus.

Take care. I hope the little guy survives.

Ellie.
rritoch
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Re: Urgent help needed regarding digestive problem

Post by rritoch »

At this time the crop is starting to reduce. I also agree that the vinegar could affect the good bacteria which is why I haven't used it yet. Either way, this Relestal is clearly not appropriate. As for the vinegar, that was from the grocery store :lol: Though I almost was laughed out of the pharmacy when they realized we were shopping for a bird.

The bird is clearly struggling trying to defecate. I read somewhere that it is rare for a bird to be constipated since everything comes from the same place, though the feces that did come out so far seemed very dry. I also found a similar story online where they said there was some kind of stone blocking the cloaca, if that is the case we're in real trouble here since we've been unable to find a competent vet for a baby bird.

I think my wife is nearly ready to give up, she thinks we should just return the bird to the parents and let nature take its course. That would bring us back to @molossus suggestion, but I'm not willing to take that step until the crop is clear. The reason we started handfeeding in the first place was because the parents weren't feeding them adequately, and this may be why. They probably know that their baby has a digestive problem.
rritoch
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Re: Urgent help needed regarding digestive problem

Post by rritoch »

I fed him the Ringers solution again. This time he readily accepted it the same way he takes his formula. Once he was full to the amount we normally feed him I monitored him for about 5 minutes. Almost immediately the crop size started reducing, and within five minutes the size was less than where it was when I started feeding him. I'll take this as a sign that it is working. I've also noticed that he consumes the crop faster while I'm holding him. Immediately after feeding him he again was struggling trying to defecate but nothing really came out other than some liquid.
Johan S
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Re: Urgent help needed regarding digestive problem

Post by Johan S »

Well, hopefully the Ringers will flush the system. Make sure the chick is hot enough, as a too cold environment is another cause of crop failure. Forgot to mention that. Then I strongly suggest you follow previous advice and get the parents on a more balanced diet immediately. In the very least, include some cooked corn and green peas in a ratio of 3 to 4 parts corn, 1 part peas. You can also cook the oats (and wheat?) you are already giving with this mixture. Also in a 1 part ratio. Also include some finely chopped vegetables. Some carrot goes a long way. You can include the green stems. And some fruit, esp. apple. With any luck, your hen will eat this the first time she is served. Good luck!
rritoch
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Re: Urgent help needed regarding digestive problem

Post by rritoch »

We are looking into the legumes, but no one here knows what they are. We'll try the feed store. The corn isn't a problem, but I didn't know the oats needed to be cooked. Peas also aren't a problem. The parents have had a steady supply of oats, as suggested by the breeder we bought the mother from, but he never mentioned cooking them. We've also been giving them Malungai, sunflower seeds, saflower seeds, peanuts, and Banana. One day we even gave them some grapes. Up until now we haven't had any problems, and the other baby is perfectly healthy. The egg this baby was in was cracked within a week of being laid, probably by the mother, so it isn't too far fetched to believe there may be a developmental issue here, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that it is lacking an anus (cloaca). I have confirmed this by the feces and pee coming out of it (and ending up on my hand :roll: ).

The crop hasn't emptied completely but is about 1/3 the size it was when we realized there is a problem. We have returned it to the parents for the night since there is really nothing more we can do. Temperature wise the environmental temperature here is always 26C or above. I was keeping the brooder at 34C but my wife thought it was too hot so we brought it down to 32C.

I don't believe this is an issue with what the parents were fed or what the baby was fed though. The baby defecated something that was very hard, I'm not sure what it was. My wife thinks that it was hardened puss, and I think it was nesting material, but we don't have the "facilities" to have it tested so we'll never know. Whatever it was, it wasn't something we, or the parents fed to the baby. Either there is an infection, or the baby ate nesting material, possibly a little of both. Regardless, it has now caused problems with the crop so we now have to deal with that, and at this point I'd feed this bird solid gold if I knew it would save its life.
ellieelectrons
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Re: Urgent help needed regarding digestive problem

Post by ellieelectrons »

Does he link on legumes help? http://www.goodness.com.au/information/ ... oking.html

I feed my birds a chop mix that includes several types of beans which are a type of legume. When Janey was on eggs last year, I gave her cooked frozen mixed veges twice a day and she was absolutely in love with peas.

I have my fingers crossed for the little guy.

Ellie.
rritoch
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Re: Urgent help needed regarding digestive problem

Post by rritoch »

@molossus, thank you for your Assistance. Can you please advise what food you suggest that I remove from the parents?

Regarding the other issues, if you, or anyone else in this forum has an issue with me, you may send me a private message and I'll give you the phone number of my attorney. This is a life or death situation, if it wasn't I wouldn't be posting here. This isn't a game, and I'm not playing. I previously was simply interested in helping my pets, and helping others with their pets, but after being repeatedly attacked by people in this forum, I have no desire to be involved. Attacking people who simply want to help, and have nothing to gain from providing such help, is a sign of a serious problem, that I want nothing to do with.

That being said, you catch more flies with sugar than you do vinegar, as a vinegar kind of person myself, I certainly can't judge anyone for their behavior.
alphamale
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Re: Urgent help needed regarding digestive problem

Post by alphamale »

Just as a warning to other members of this forum. Do not follow the advise of molossus as he is completely WRONG and his advise nearly killed my baby birds since the parents refused to eat the legumes, and therefore were forced to stop feeding the babies since there was no other food available. I (rritoch) have been banned from this forum, In violation of this forums own terms of service, yet molossus who clearly is in violation of the terms of service, is allowed to stay. Let yourself be the judge....


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Redzone
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Re: Urgent help needed regarding digestive problem

Post by Redzone »

You were banned for a reason, buddy.
alphamale
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Re: Urgent help needed regarding digestive problem

Post by alphamale »

Redzone wrote:You were banned for a reason, buddy.
I have brought this issue to the owner of the site. Your advise is appreciated. I know when I'm not wanted, and I'm not going to stay where I'm not wanted, but I'm also not going to have my legal rights trampled on.

If you want to put the lives of your pets in the hands of molassus be my guest. I'm sure his methods probably work for some birds, but they nearly killed mine.
Last edited by alphamale on Fri Sep 27, 2013 5:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
Redzone
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Re: Urgent help needed regarding digestive problem

Post by Redzone »

You seem to have some fixation with attorneys and lawyers, threatening their use at the drop of a hat. I really dont understand it personally, it just makes you look like you have something to be afraid of?

BTW your threatening legal action violated the terms of use of this website i'm pretty sure.
alphamale
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Re: Urgent help needed regarding digestive problem

Post by alphamale »

Redzone wrote:
BTW your threatening legal action violated the terms of use of this website i'm pretty sure.
I didn't threaten legal action. I informed him that he could contact me for the phone number of my attorney, there is a BIG difference.
InTheAir
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Re: Urgent help needed regarding digestive problem

Post by InTheAir »

Rritich: Review the advice you have been given. I have followed it all and it was Damn good advice from every single person here.
Don't come on here and try to slander people. You have been rude and offensive in numerous posts, if you actually know better then anyone else on here there is no point in you hanging out with us mere mortals. Or asking questions of us. You are wasting your time on us.
Redzone
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Re: Urgent help needed regarding digestive problem

Post by Redzone »

I BOUGHT A MONGOOSE ON YOUR ADVICE TO KEEP SNAKES OUT OF MY AVIARY, IT ATE MY BIRDS! PLEASE CONTACT MY ATTORNEY
ringneck
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Re: Urgent help needed regarding digestive problem

Post by ringneck »

This topic is locked! This is unacceptable behavior here! I'll be sending private messages. :evil:

Imran
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