sl-ino opaline

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keeskk16
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sl-ino opaline

Post by keeskk16 »

i own a male turquoise/opaline/ino

i am going to mate him with a green/blue female

does anyone have a picture of a lutino-opaline male or female
Skyes_crew
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Re: sl-ino opaline

Post by Skyes_crew »

Wouldn't that be an opaline Ino? They would only be females. And I'm probably wrong lol, but I think it's an all white bird?
I am owned by my birds...and I wouldn't have it any other way :D

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keeskk16
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Re: sl-ino opaline

Post by keeskk16 »

i think it is not a white bird

because it should be a crossing over and all 2 colours should be visible

does anyone breed with this combination
prodigy
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Re: sl-ino opaline

Post by prodigy »

Hi Kees,

Remember that the Opaline Ino crossover rate is roughly about 30%

I would recommend the following pairing rather as you % chance would be higher as per the below:

1,0 turquoise /ino /opaline x 0,1 ino /blue

1,0 12.5% green /ino /turquoise
1,0 12.5% green /ino /opaline /turquoise
1,0 12.5% ino turquoiseBlue
1,0 12.5% ino turquoiseBlue /opaline
1,0 12.5% ino /opaline /turquoise
1,0 12.5% ino /turquoise
1,0 12.5% turquoiseBlue /ino
1,0 12.5% turquoiseBlue /ino /opaline

0,1 12.5% green /turquoise
0,1 12.5% ino turquoiseBlue
0,1 12.5% ino /turquoise
0,1 12.5% ino opaline turquoiseBlue
0,1 12.5% ino opaline /turquoise
0,1 12.5% opaline turquoiseBlue
0,1 12.5% opaline green /turquoise
0,1 12.5% turquoiseBlue

Regards,

Peter
keeskk16
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Re: sl-ino opaline

Post by keeskk16 »

When I put this combination in gencalc

With a ino female or a opaline female I get the Same change to get a opaline ino

Why should I go for a INO female
Skyes_crew
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Re: sl-ino opaline

Post by Skyes_crew »

I apologize. Still learning crossover. But yes only females and with prodigy's set up a better chance of achieving it. With the addition of the crossover info, I would assume that it would be a pale yellow bird with a white head, white on the flights??

If you take that opaline ino female and breed her to any other male split to opaline you can get more colors in opaline in both male and female.
I am owned by my birds...and I wouldn't have it any other way :D

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keeskk16
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Re: sl-ino opaline

Post by keeskk16 »

I want to breed a opaline male / ino
then I want to mate him with a ino female


Out of this combination all females are opaline and
some are both so this is guaranteed crossing over
And I breed ino males / opaline
Skyes_crew
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Re: sl-ino opaline

Post by Skyes_crew »

Quick question. Is this a turquoise parblue or turquoise blue /opaline/Ino male?
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Johan S
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Re: sl-ino opaline

Post by Johan S »

Peter probably suggested that, since ino is cheaper than opaline.

Skyes, the additional crossover gained from using an ino hen occurs only in the male offspring, which are possibles (notice ino vs ino / opaline from Peter's results). They need to be tested, so it is debatable whether it is really advantageous. I, for one, wouldn't bother with them. One could use that aviary for another /opaline/ino cock. The real gem is the opaline-ino hen, not really the male offspring. The heads will remain yellow, though. Perhaps a slightly more rich, vibrant yellow than a typical ino head, but definitely not white, unless the blue mutation is also introduced.

How will the opaline-ino look? Most likely like an ino with a slightly thicker pink neck ring. I'm also wondering if we'd be able to identify the ino-opaline hen from the normal ino hen to begin with. I hope to be proven wrong though, but based on pics of green and grey-green opalines, there isn't a whole lot of red psittacin enhancement seen in IRN opalines. For species where rubinos have the largest red enhancement effect, there is normally a good amount of red to begin with.

Kees, since the opaline-ino (esp. the holy grail, the mature cock bird) is still unknown to my knowledge, what do you think it'll look like? It is certainly an experiment worth doing! :D

For me the best approach will be to breed /ino/opaline x wildtype, and from them an /ino/opaline x opaline-ino. The problem with previous suggestions is that the ino / opaline male can not be identified from the normal ino (NOT split for opaline) male, so you might end up wasting time building your breeding program based on risky shortcuts using "possibles". Where will one get a guaranteed ino / opaline to begin with? Only from an opaline-ino hen where the crossing over has already occured...
keeskk16
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Re: sl-ino opaline

Post by keeskk16 »

I hope that a male opaline INO has a very nice red ring in his neck
That is what I want to try

Maybe when I got a ino opaline female I put her Back to her father so I can breed males

The male is from year 2012 so I hope I am lucky next year.
Skyes_crew
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Re: sl-ino opaline

Post by Skyes_crew »

What would I do without you Johan :wink:
I am owned by my birds...and I wouldn't have it any other way :D

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Carr.birds
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Re: sl-ino opaline

Post by Carr.birds »

Kees

I agree with what Johan suggested, but I would pair the /ino/opaline to an opaline hen. If you get an ino-opaline hen it will be a bonus, but you will get opaline cocks and hens. All the opaline cocks will be possible split ino (opaline/ino?) Take all all your opaline/ino? cocks and pair them to ino hens. Stay away from blue series birds, I bred an blue ino-opaline Redrump years ago and you couldn't see the difference compared to an blue ino (albino)

green/opaline/ino & opaline

1,0 green/opaline & 0,1 green
1,0 green/opaline/ino & 0,1 ino
1,0 opaline & 0,1 opaline
1,0 opaline/ino & 0,1 ino-opaline

Now you take all your opaline cocks and test them for split ino. The moment you get an ino looking bird (cock or hen) it will indicate that your cock is opaline/ino

opaline/ino & ino

= green/opaline/ino & opaline
= ino/opaline & ino-opaline (take note that all ino looking females can only be ino-opaline)

Pair your opaline/ino to an ino-opaline hen and produce ino-opaline in both sexes

I don't use a Gen Cal, the people that use it can work out % for you if it is important to you. I have followed this route with cinnamon and ino in splendid parakeets and it worked the best for me. Luckily the crossing rate over of ino & opaline is higher comapred to ino & cinnamon

Tienie
Johan S
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Re: sl-ino opaline

Post by Johan S »

keeskk16 wrote:I hope that a male opaline INO has a very nice red ring in his neck
That is what I want to try

Maybe when I got a ino opaline female I put her Back to her father so I can breed males.
Good luck, kees. This would be a very nice bird to own and I would also follow your approach.

Tienie, my biggest concern with your suggestion (similar to others) is that you will contaminate an opaline line with ino. Testing will produce 10+ further cocks with uncertainty in their genetics. To me, that is not the most responsible approach, considering the SL genes can manifest themselves in female offspring later on. Also consider this: by the time one can start testing the opaline cocks for split ino, the father to daughter combination could already produce /ino/opaline, opaline / ino, ino / opaline and opaline-ino, with zero question marks about genetics requiring test breeding. All offspring can be identified and guaranteed. And the clincher on the deal is that the green / ino-opaline is a guaranteed crossed over split; once again unlike the suggestions of ino or opaline hens. Concerned about inbreeding? Not a problem! Use a single aviary (rather than the collection of aviaries that you would require for testing all those possible males from the first generation) and the opaline hen (as suggested, so the budget is fair between both options) paired to an ino cock to breed a completely unrelated /ino/opaline.

The disadvantage being that it might take longer if you have annoyed Murphey.

Above is merely my way of skinning the cat, aimed to produce more birds for the breeding market (guaranteed genetic history) and less for the pet trade (possible birds with uncertain genetics).

Summary:

Pair 1: ino x opaline to produce an unrelated /ino/opaline cock

Pair 2:
Step 1 - /ino/opaline x wildtype
Red eyed offspring are kept back, and normal eyed offspring are h/r as pets. Hopefully an ino-opaline can be identified.

Step 2 - /ino/opaline from pair 1 x ino-opaline hen.

Thoughts?
Carr.birds
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Re: sl-ino opaline

Post by Carr.birds »

Johan

Ok, you can follow your idea. If you own /opaline/ino your are working towards one goal = ino-opaline. In Europe you will pay more for a /ino/opaline compared to /opaline. That is your choice and if breeders are honest I can't see how you can contaminate the market.

I agree that some green males will be /ino-opaline and will deliver a bigger % ino-opaline females but they are a small % and you must test breed them. You will not be able to see a phenotype difference between ino and ino-opaline in females.

By taking the opaline/ino cock you know all ino looking females must be ino-opaline.

That is just my way of thinking and I agree not all breeders will try strange combinations and follow my way. Maybe this is why I own cinnamon-ino IRN's.

Tienie
Johan S
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Re: sl-ino opaline

Post by Johan S »

Carr.birds wrote:I agree that some green males will be /ino-opaline and will deliver a bigger % ino-opaline females but they are a small % and you must test breed them.
...
By taking the opaline/ino cock you know all ino looking females must be ino-opaline.
Tienie, you mention two things:

First, with the pairing I suggest as /opaline/ino x opaline-ino, all green splits will be /ino-opaline, not some as you mention. No test breeding necessary. This will be rare, and happens when a crossing over occurs on the male's side but one gets the "wrong" gene from the male. The "right" gene after such a crossing over paired to the hen's opaline-ino gene will result in the first prize, the opaline-ino cock. 15% chance of breeding either. If no crossing over occurs on the male, one will breed with the unlinked opaline OR ino gene, together with the linked opaline-ino gene from the hen, resulting in either opaline / ino or ino / opaline birds. The hen, being hemizygous, shouldn't "unlink" her ino-opaline genes at this stage. Unless I have this last part about the z-chromosone wrong.

1.0 green /ino opaline x 0.1 ino opaline (op+/op;ino/ino+; op/Y;ino/Y;)
% from all 1.0 Genetic Code
35.0% 1.0 green opaline /ino (Xop/Xop-ino;)
15.0% 1.0 opaline ino (Xop-ino/Xop-ino;) <- First price, double crossing over (one in first and one in second generation)
35.0% 1.0 ino /opaline (Xino/Xop-ino;)
15.0% 1.0 green /opaline-ino (X/Xop-ino;) <- Only green male in the nest. No doubt
% from all 0.1 Genetic Code
15.0% 0.1 green
35.0% 0.1 ino (Xino/Y;)
15.0% 0.1 opaline ino (Xop-ino/Y;) <- Interesting enough, this crossing over had nothing to do with the female used.
35.0% 0.1 green opaline (Xop/Y;)

The second point you make, is very interesting though. That is worth considering if one is happy breeding possible offspring. It is a decent enough shortcut.
Carr.birds
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Re: sl-ino opaline

Post by Carr.birds »

Johan

I am referring to your starting point

normal/ino/opaline & normal

cocks(50% of all babies)

normal/ino & normal/opaline (33.5%)
normal & normal/ino-opaline (16.5%)

It is a different story if you start with an ino-opaline as hen. That is why I say start with an opaline hen instead of a normal. Your chances of producing an ino-opaline hen from a normal/ino/opaline & normal females is 8.25% if all offspring is 50/50 male and female.

I don't know if all my calculations are correct but the principle apply and in cinnamon-ino your chances are even less (1.5%)

Tienie
keeskk16
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Re: sl-ino opaline

Post by keeskk16 »

i just saw that i made a little misstake with the pairing

male female
turquoise/ino/opaline x opaline/blue


3.75% 1.0 groen /turquoise opaline
3.75% 1.0 blauw /opaline
3.75% 1.0 groen /blauw opaline
3.75% 1.0 turquoiseBlauw /opaline
8.75% 1.0 groen opaline /turquoise
8.75% 1.0 blauw opaline
8.75% 1.0 groen opaline /blauw
8.75% 1.0 turquoiseBlauw opaline
3.75% 1.0 groen opaline /turquoise ino
3.75% 1.0 blauw opaline /ino
3.75% 1.0 groen opaline /blauw ino
3.75% 1.0 turquoiseBlauw opaline /ino
8.75% 1.0 groen /turquoise ino opaline
8.75% 1.0 blauw /ino opaline
8.75% 1.0 groen /blauw ino opaline
8.75% 1.0 turquoiseBlauw /ino opaline
% van alles 0.1
3.75% 0.1 groen /turquoise
3.75% 0.1 blauw
3.75% 0.1 groen /blauw
3.75% 0.1 turquoiseBlauw
8.75% 0.1 ino /turquoise
8.75% 0.1 blauw ino
8.75% 0.1 ino /blauw
8.75% 0.1 turquoiseBlauw ino
3.75% 0.1 opaline ino /turquoise
3.75% 0.1 blauw opaline ino
3.75% 0.1 opaline ino /blauw
3.75% 0.1 turquoiseBlauw opaline ino
8.75% 0.1 groen opaline /turquoise
8.75% 0.1 blauw opaline
8.75% 0.1 groen opaline /blauw
8.75% 0.1 turquoiseBlauw opaline
keeskk16
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Re: sl-ino opaline

Post by keeskk16 »

if i put a

turquoise /opaline/ino x dark turquoise pallid

what should this combinatian do with opaline
prodigy
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Re: sl-ino opaline

Post by prodigy »

1,0 turquoise /ino /opaline x 0,1 pallid D turquoise

1,0 12.5% D turquoise /pallid
1,0 12.5% D turquoise /pallid /opaline
1,0 12.5% pallidIno D turquoise
1,0 12.5% pallidIno D turquoise /opaline
1,0 12.5% pallidIno turquoise
1,0 12.5% pallidIno turquoise /opaline
1,0 12.5% turquoise /pallid
1,0 12.5% turquoise /pallid /opaline

0,1 12.5% D turquoise
0,1 12.5% ino D turquoise
0,1 12.5% ino turquoise
0,1 12.5% ino opaline D turquoise
0,1 12.5% ino opaline turquoise
0,1 12.5% opaline D turquoise
0,1 12.5% opaline turquoise
0,1 12.5% turquoise
dukaring
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Re: sl-ino opaline

Post by dukaring »

I got 2 lutino from green/opaline/ino x opaline last season. But I am not sure what are they, opaline-ino or just lutino?
keeskk16
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Re: sl-ino opaline

Post by keeskk16 »

Could you show us à picture

Where are you from
Johan S
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Re: sl-ino opaline

Post by Johan S »

dukaring wrote:I got 2 lutino from green/opaline/ino x opaline last season. But I am not sure what are they, opaline-ino or just lutino?
Welcome to the forum! You are breeding with some quality birds, so I hope you'll visit regularly. :D
dukaring
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Re: sl-ino opaline

Post by dukaring »

Thanks Johan
I don't know why I can not post the picture.
Johan S
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Re: sl-ino opaline

Post by Johan S »

It is an anti spam mechanism of the forum. You need to make a couple of posts before you can add photos.
dukaring
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Re: sl-ino opaline

Post by dukaring »

OK
keeskk16
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Re: sl-ino opaline

Post by keeskk16 »

you could sent a picture to one of us so we can put them on the forum
dukaring
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Re: sl-ino opaline

Post by dukaring »

:)
Johan S
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Re: sl-ino opaline

Post by Johan S »

Pictures courtesy of duraking

Image
Image
Image
Kappa
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Re: sl-ino opaline

Post by Kappa »

Hi Dukaring,

Nice birds. Looking at the last photo posted, the pattern and colour of the flights is not what I would expect to see on a normal lutino. Possible that it is an opaline - ino. Normal lutinos generally have lighter yellow even white flights.
Skyes_crew
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Re: sl-ino opaline

Post by Skyes_crew »

I'm horrible with mutations lol and that was what I noticed immediately too.
I am owned by my birds...and I wouldn't have it any other way :D

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Johan S
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Re: sl-ino opaline

Post by Johan S »

I'm hoping for a picture of the second ino offspring, similar to the third picture posted of the other one. It might merely be my imagination, but from the first picture, the ino on the left (and seems the same as the one in the third picture) seems to display a tinge of red in the wing covert feathers, which doesn't seem visible in the second ino on the right of the first picture. But some more pics of both the ino offspring would help.

As to the yellow primary flights, I don't think it is quite that unusual for good quality inos bred from green birds where the blue gene is of no importance (as for an ino opaline experiment). Here is what I have noticed from the parents. They have lots of green in the primary flight feathers. The tails are also very green for blue series birds, or at least contain a lot of green, more so than in many other green IRN (probably split blue) out there. And notice the red in the tail feather of the opaline hen. And it seems as if there is a good amount of red on the cock bird too. Pity that isn't coming through strongly in the chicks! Maybe we'll need to wait for some time as the inos mature, but these are excellent candidate birds to start an ino opaline project with!
Skyes_crew
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Re: sl-ino opaline

Post by Skyes_crew »

Johan...look closely at the tail in the bird on the left in the first pic. Or is that shadowing causing me to see a red tinge?
I am owned by my birds...and I wouldn't have it any other way :D

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dukaring
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Re: sl-ino opaline

Post by dukaring »

Kappa wrote:Hi Dukaring,

Nice birds. Looking at the last photo posted, the pattern and colour of the flights is not what I would expect to see on a normal lutino. Possible that it is an opaline - ino. Normal lutinos generally have lighter yellow even white flights.
Thanks, I still wonder about that too.
sheyd
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Re: sl-ino opaline

Post by sheyd »

are you going to mate the 'possibility' back to the sire? would be interesting to see the mature male version for sure. Those flights are not what I expect for a typical Lutino either. Good job!
Johan S
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Re: sl-ino opaline

Post by Johan S »

Shey, I'd pair those inos back to opaline cocks. Granted they are hard to find and expensive, but you'll know the genetics of the ino hens from the first male offspring they produce. If they produce an opaline (/ino) cock, you've gotten another step closer to the first prize, the opaline ino male bird. And of course, no one will say no to a bunch of opaline hens in a clutch. :D

And some more pictures of the birds
Image
Image
keeskk16
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Re: sl-ino opaline

Post by keeskk16 »

maybe the lutino gets more colour with the first or second molt

nice birds
Wildman
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Re: sl-ino opaline

Post by Wildman »

I have been following this thread with interest.
I am new to genetics, however from my basic knowledge it looks as if it would be easier to breed a nsl ino opaline.
From opaline x ino
Cocks:
Green/ino/opaline
Hens:
Opaline

From opaline x nsl ino
Cocks:
Green/nsl ino/opaline
Hens:
Opaline/nsl ino

From green/nsl ino/opaline x opaline/nsl ino
Cocks:
Nsl ino opaline
opaline/nsl ino
nsl ino/opaline
green/nsl ino/opaline
opaline
green/opaline
Hens:
nsl ino opaline
opaline/nsl ino
nsl ino
green/nsl ino
opaline
green

Interested on thoughts on this.
keeskk16
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Re: sl-ino opaline

Post by keeskk16 »

I know nsl-ino is easier

In europe nsl-ino is very hard to get

And o want to breed à crossing over

That is not possible with nsl-ino
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