Harlequin pieds

[John Shannon]

updated pictures of my pieds. 2012 Nest mates
I have the parents of these on five eggs and I am looking forward to the results.
John S

[Ring0Neck]

Hi John,

Nice going, hope you get what you wish for ;)

the Violet green Harlequin Pied, do you have other new pics of him/her?

83IV

[Johan S]

Mollosus, you read my mind! Looking at both these birds, I wanted to ask John's opinion on saddleback. So John, what do you reckon?

[John Shannon]

Hi to the the group
These to are from a turquoise blue Harlequin pied, I bred in 2010 nest mate to the Spangle looking Blue Harlequin pied in Deon new book page 52, and a Violet Green hen I also bred ( this Hen has a Dark shadow ring around it's neck as doe's the hen in the book) See attached picture of her with the 2012 Turquoise blue hen,10th month 2012 Mother and daughter.
So far out of this pied gene pool out-crossed twice, two hens not related I see Spangle and Saddle looking Birds. The saddle on these may lighten on them as they mature as did the father, Turquoise blue Harlequin pied. The spangle markings have not changed on the Harlequin Blue hen and the Harlequin Green 2012 Young Cock,See attached picture of him with that hen.
Also attached is the updated picture of the Violet green Harlequin pied 2010.

[ringo27]

beautiful!!

[Indian Ringneck Vic]

John your violet green harlequin pied looks terrific your stud seems to be moving forward in leaps and bounds congratulations I reckon your on a winner.

[John Shannon]

I have just been reading the Saddleback post and there are a lot of similar birds displayed there. Opaline has been talked about and this year, I hope I will be able to prove or disprove my birds for this gene .
From my 2008 Blue Harlequin pied cock.
In two breeding seasons to out-crossed hens, I held back two straight cocks (not pied ) each year. First Blue and Turquoise. A friend is test mating them for me. I am test mating two, straight cocks: Turquoise blue to a Cobalt blue hen that is on 5 eggs. the other pair are Turquoise Violet blue to Turquoise DF Violetblue hen (They have the same mum outcrossed dads;Violet Blue and blue Harlequin pied) on 5 eggs. Long story, but I do believe if no Opaline hens in these nests then we may be able to move on from this gene. And look more at edged or Spangle.
Just my thought John

[Johan S]

John, I'm very glad that you are testing for opaline. Not sure if you would prefer it to be present or not, but best of luck either way!

If we assume that both cocks are in fact split for opaline, all the eggs are fertile and all the young are raised, then 10 offspring would be sufficient. However, I don't think one can move on just yet. Statistically, one of those cocks won't be split (perhaps both), but if only one is split, I won't draw the conclusion of no opaline from say 0/5 for the cock that splits. You will need 10 offspring from each cock.

I only have experience with adm recessive pied, and there we see a lot of variation. @John, have you noticed variation in harlequins, esp. when looking at other breeders birds as well?

[Recio]

If we assume that both cocks are in fact split for opaline, all the eggs are fertile and all the young are raised, then 10 offspring would be sufficient. However, I don't think one can move on just yet. Statistically, one of those cocks won't be split (perhaps both), but if only one is split, I won't draw the conclusion of no opaline from say 0/5 for the cock that splits. You will need 10 offspring from each cock.

Hi Johan,

If we assume the males as dom pied possibly split for opaline ...
1. One opaline offspring would be enough to prove that the opaline gene is present.
2. Following your reasoning .... 20 dom pied males producing at least 1 female chick each should be tested before saying that opaline is not (statistically) present (p<0.05). Please, correct me if I am wrong. It is a very long work to disprove the presence of a mutation...

Regards

Recio

[John Shannon]

Hi Johan S and recio
I have one other Harlequin pied from another breeder, and have had her a Violet Blue from 2010 and this bird is very different from then till now. So I think we need pictures from nest to maturity before we Know What modifying genes to Harlequin pied we are looking at. It is hard to compare my birds to others as I do not have there History from nest to Maturity.
If I can I will add more pictures of the Turquoise Blue H pied with his hen Violet Green . You will see how this hen at Five years
went through the 2012 molt and got strange marking on her. And I know someone will say sick bird But she looks good and just layed 5 eggs. These Indian Ringnecks in Mutation breeding will keep us guessing for years.

[John Shannon]

Her back also 2008 Violet Green Hen
John.
In 2014 these marks were gone?

[Ring0Neck]

We have to consider the thought; what if Saddleback is not a mutation but simply a morphotype of harlequin pied? it is known that pied mutation offspring can vary in piedness, it can be a modifier switch triggerd by???
We want to believe it is triggered by a specific mutation although this might not be the case.
It would explain the inconsistent breeding results.
I guess we need a breeder to pair up 2 saddlebacks and to record all offspring. If DF is bred then it settles it.
To me saddleback is too random, i admit i have limited info on them since i don't have saddleback.

(I don't want to upset saddleback breeders here, just exploring)

[John Shannon]

how would Rec Dilute sit .Look at page 372 of Bastiaans book at 1-0 dominant edged dilute and 381 Harlequin.
Then add Turquoise blue and compare my 2010 Cock at rising one pic, and Mature picture and also the 2012 Diluted looking Turq Harlequin hen. (look at the lack of colour in the tail feathers of all the so called pieds I have).
Turquoise is heavily involved in both side of there gene pool.
john

[John Shannon]

Bastiaan's book page 388 The Colour change of my 2008 Violet green hen looks very similar .
Is anyone able to tell me when that Recessive edged dark green,became marked as he it.?
john

[John Shannon]

I have just been reading the Saddleback post and there are a lot of similar birds displayed there. Opaline has been talked about and this year, I hope I will be able to prove or disprove my birds for this gene .
From my 2008 Blue Harlequin pied cock.
In two breeding seasons to out-crossed hens, I held back two straight cocks (not pied ) each year. First Blue and Turquoise. A friend is test mating them for me. I am test mating two, straight cocks: Turquoise blue to a Cobalt blue hen that is on 5 eggs. the other pair are Turquoise Violet blue to Turquoise DF Violetblue hen (They have the same mum outcrossed dads;Violet Blue and blue Harlequin pied) on 5 eggs. Long story, but I do believe if no Opaline hens in these nests then we may be able to move on from this gene. And look more at edged or Spangle.
Just my thought John

From all these 2013 nests the results were nil Opaline straight hens.
time to move on.
I do not understand (autosomal co-dominant) but I think it has a big part to play in the Harlequin pied Variants .

[Ring0Neck]

Hi John,


Thanks for the green violet/ct hen, she did a great job
She is split Blue.

No Opaline hens , Pitty, Would have been nice if you've bred opalines, it'd have made the game more interesting.


Ben

[John Shannon]

Thats great Ben
Did you get a Violet green cleartail
Have you any pictures of the nest results.

[Johan S]

John, it's a real pity you missed out on an opaline hen! I rate them in my top 3 mutations. Maybe you'll be surprised with one popping out next year. That'll be a nice surprise. Do you think something else is at play? I have no experience with dom. pieds, but we see A LOT of variation in our adm recessive pieds. I'd be very surprised if spangle is at play, but that will be one of the best surprises to hit the IRN world. If it is there, we should see some variation in phenotype as the bird matures. I'll have to go read up on it again, as I've not bred spangle in any species, but if I recall the cocks loose their marking with age.

[John Shannon]

Just an update . this picture is my 2012 green dom pied cock and my 2013 green pieds Dna sexed two hens and a cock 16/02/14. Parents are Turq Blue dom pied and Violet green hen