Determining the crossover rate of SL dominant edged

[Johan S]

Hi everyone!

So, I'd like to get some ideas on how IRN breeders can determine the crossover rate of the sex-linked dominant edged mutation. Normally such numbers are determined from more prolific species that matures earlier, so this should be a very interesting challenge seeing as the edged mutation doesn't seem to exist (yet) in other species. I think, as a starting point, owners of the mutation could report back here on what their success have been with combining the edged mutation with other sex-linked mutations. To my knowledge the order of the mutations along the Z-chromosome is - slate - cinnamon - ino/pallid - opaline. The challenge thus is to fit SL dom. edged in there somewhere.

At this stage, the edged cinnamon combination exists. Can anybody report back on how hard/easy it is to create/revert that combination?

Also, from discussions I've had, it seems as if most breeders I know that have tried, have been able to breed at least one edged opaline (combination) bird in a nest of four, so it seems as if the edged and the opaline mutations are fairly far apart and crosses over rather easily.

So, without forgetting about the cinnamon edged question above, what would you reckon would be the next step so that we can solve the numbers?

[madas]

I would say:

First you have to breed SL Edged males which are split for the other sex-linked mutation. Means SL Edged(EF) /opaline, SL Edged(EF) /cinnamon and SL Edged(EF) /ino (resp. pallid). For example you can do this by breeding 1,0 SL Edged to 0,1 opaline or vice versa. These males then have to be paired back for at least 3 or 4 seasons to a normal female that isn't opaline, cinnamon or ino (resp. pallid). The whole offspring from these 3 or 4 nests has to be written down and categorized for each phenotype. After that you are able to calc the crossover rates. This breding plan should be done at least for two of the rec. sex-linked mutations. The rest could be interpolated.

SL Edged (EF) /opaline and SL Edged (EF) /cinnamon should both be available in S.A.

madas

[Carr.birds]

Stefan

I understand your opinion and agree with it. The only SL mutation it was tested is cinnamon. (SL edged/cinnamon & green). The problem you are sitting with is that it is very difficult to distinguish between cinnamon edged and edged females. I have noticed that in this combination the ruby cinnamon eye darkens and doesn’t assist you in identifying the cinnamon edged females.

I do own a dblue cinnamon-edged cock, blue cinnamon-edged cock, edged/cinnamon cock, edged/lutino cock and blue edged/opaline cock that we can use for any experiments you suggest.

Most of us who own an edged/opaline cock paired it to an opaline hen to try and produce an edged-opaline cock. I have my doubts if this short cut will work and believe you need at least an edged/opaline cock & edged-opaline hen to produce a sf edged-opaline or df edged-opaline cock.

Tienie

[madas]

I do own a dblue cinnamon-edged cock, blue cinnamon-edged cock, edged/cinnamon cock, edged/lutino cock and blue edged/opaline cock that we can use for any experiments you suggest.

So i would say you could/should use the edged /cinnamon and edged /lutino males because you don't lost much valued birds for your other breeding programs. In my opinion you can't use the cinnamon-edged males because then pairing them to a normal there is crossing over effect. So pair the Edged split males to normal green or blue female. If you are a lucky man then you will get cinnamon, edged and cinnamon edged in one nest so perhaps the identification is a little bit easier.

madas

[madas]

I have my doubts if this short cut will work and believe you need at least an edged/opaline cock & edged-opaline hen to produce a sf edged-opaline or df edged-opaline cock.

Can't agree complete. You can breed an Edged-opaline male from a pair Edged /opaline x opaline but to get such a bird at least one crossover must occur. And how easy it is to achieve only depends on the crossover rate between Edged and opaline. BTW: Breeding an Edged-opaline female is just as hard as breeding an Edged-opaline male. You need one crossover too.

madas

[Carr.birds]

Stefan

I accept your explanation and will keep trying with one pair. SL edged grey/opaline & opaline/turquoise.

Tienie

[prodigy]

Great Topic Johan,

Two Questions:

Q1 :Are we all more or less in agreement on the following rates and percentages as per Recio's calculations?

Mutations Offspring ratio Crossing over rate
Cin - ino 3% 3.1%
Slate - cin 7% 7.5%
Ino - opaline 30% 42.8%
Cin - opaline 33% 49.2%
Slate - ino 10% 11.1%
Slate -opaline 40% 66.7%
Dark - blue 14% 16.2%

Q2: Has anyone archived a triple crossover yet in the below?

Cin - Opaline - SLino
Cin - Opaline - Pallid

Regards,

Peter

[Johan S]

I would say:

First you have to breed SL Edged males which are split for the other sex-linked mutation. Means SL Edged(EF) /opaline, SL Edged(EF) /cinnamon and SL Edged(EF) /ino (resp. pallid). For example you can do this by breeding 1,0 SL Edged to 0,1 opaline or vice versa. These males then have to be paired back for at least 3 or 4 seasons to a normal female that isn't opaline, cinnamon or ino (resp. pallid).

Stefan, I don't fully agree with the underlined part in your quote. However, I agree with the statement below.

[quote="madas"You can breed an Edged-opaline male from a pair Edged /opaline x opaline but to get such a bird at least one crossover must occur. And how easy it is to achieve only depends on the crossover rate between Edged and opaline. BTW: Breeding an Edged-opaline female is just as hard as breeding an Edged-opaline male. You need one crossover too.[/quote]

In my opinion it doesn't matter what hen you use, crossover will occur irrespective. The important thing to keep in mind, is that we can identify a crossing over in the hen by phenotype, but it is just as likely to happen in the male offspring, which can only be ID by breeding results. Here, an opaline female serves a better purpose than a normal hen, because these cocks where edged and opaline crossed over, can be ID in phenotype as opaline SF edged. The percentages aren't affected, only the ability to ID the crossed over cocks. Unless I don't understand it fully, which is also possible.

[Johan S]

Great Topic Johan,

Two Questions:

Q1 :Are we all more or less in agreement on the following rates and percentages as per Recio's calculations?

Mutations Offspring ratio Crossing over rate
Cin - ino 3% 3.1%
Slate - cin 7% 7.5%
Ino - opaline 30% 42.8%
Cin - opaline 33% 49.2%
Slate - ino 10% 11.1%
Slate -opaline 40% 66.7%
Dark - blue 14% 16.2%

Q2: Has anyone archived a triple crossover yet in the below?

Cin - Opaline - SLino
Cin - Opaline - Pallid

Regards,

Peter

Peter, as for Q1, I think those numbers have been proven reliably by our budgerigar and lovebird friends.

As for Q2, I don't think for the specific examples you mention, but who (other than Madas ) knows what is happening in Europe. However, I wouldn't be surprised if there have been attempts at the tripple crossovers cin - edged - opaline and/or cin - edged - pallid/ino.

[Johan S]

Lee, these crossover rates holds over all parrot species. The rate is a probability that is related to the distance between the mutant loci on the "string" of DNA in a chromosome. So all mutations in a specific chromosome are affected by crossing over / linkage. Hope I have all the jargon right. The best known examples all occur in the sex/Z-chromosone, but we see the same phenomenon between the dark and blue/parblues loci.

As another example, I also hypothesize/suggest for investigation that the grey mutation is linked to what we know as the "bronze" fallow mutation, i.e. they are in the same chromosome. After many attempts, over many years, by many breeders, to my knowledge a grey bronze fallow does not exist yet. So, my believe is we are seeing something here that is very similar to the behaviour of cinnamon and SL-ino, i.e. two mutations very close to one another (in the chromosome) that is extremely hard to successfully cross over. In our own breeding results from a grey (blue) / bronze fallow x green bronze fallow / blue, we get many blue and green bronze fallows, and to date exclusively grey and greygreen splits, but never a grey or grey green bronze fallow.

PS: sorry for going a bit off topic.

[Recio]

Great Topic Johan,

Two Questions:

Q1 :Are we all more or less in agreement on the following rates and percentages as per Recio's calculations?

Mutations Offspring ratio Crossing over rate
Cin - ino 3% 3.1%
Slate - cin 7% 7.5%
Ino - opaline 30% 42.8%
Cin - opaline 33% 49.2%
Slate - ino 10% 11.1%
Slate -opaline 40% 66.7%
Dark - blue 14% 16.2%

Q2: Has anyone archived a triple crossover yet in the below?

Cin - Opaline - SLino
Cin - Opaline - Pallid

Regards,

Peter

Hi Peter,

Those calculations (offspring ratio) have been taken from the literature. Some of them are direct observations (ex: cinnamon SL-ino) and some others have been calculated by erroneous "extrapolation" considering that offspring ratio and crossing over rate were the same thing. Even for Cinnamon and SL-ino we do not know which one of them is on the rigth and which one is on the left "side" (Inte was working in this subject in budgies but I do not know if he has any result) ... and we are assuming that the intergenic distance is kept among species, which is not really true.

Regards

Recio

[madas]

Lee, these crossover rates holds over all parrot species. The rate is a probability that is related to the distance between the mutant loci on the "string" of DNA in a chromosome. So all mutations in a specific chromosome are affected by crossing over / linkage. Hope I have all the jargon right. The best known examples all occur in the sex/Z-chromosone, but we see the same phenomenon between the dark and blue/parblues loci.

As another example, I also hypothesize/suggest for investigation that the grey mutation is linked to what we know as the "bronze" fallow mutation, i.e. they are in the same chromosome. After many attempts, over many years, by many breeders, to my knowledge a grey bronze fallow does not exist yet. So, my believe is we are seeing something here that is very similar to the behaviour of cinnamon and SL-ino, i.e. two mutations very close to one another (in the chromosome) that is extremely hard to successfully cross over. In our own breeding results from a grey (blue) / bronze fallow x green bronze fallow / blue, we get many blue and green bronze fallows, and to date exclusively grey and greygreen splits, but never a grey or grey green bronze fallow.

PS: sorry for going a bit off topic.

Great find. How many seasons did you breed with this pair?

madas

[madas]

Madas will the irn Slate follow the budgie iro its crossover rate?
Does the higher rate combinations indicate a closer relationship between those mutations?
Is the phenomena limited/restricted to - only known in SL mutations?

He Lee,

for my knowledge there is no slate IRN. Only "Slaty". This is a big difference.
Slaty = dom. mutation and slate = sex-linked rec.

High recombination rate indicates big distance between two mutations on one and the same chromosom.
Low recombination rate indicates short distance between two mutations on one and the same chromosom.
And not restricted to sex-linked mutations.

madas

[Johan S]

Lee, these crossover rates holds over all parrot species. The rate is a probability that is related to the distance between the mutant loci on the "string" of DNA in a chromosome. So all mutations in a specific chromosome are affected by crossing over / linkage. Hope I have all the jargon right. The best known examples all occur in the sex/Z-chromosone, but we see the same phenomenon between the dark and blue/parblues loci.

As another example, I also hypothesize/suggest for investigation that the grey mutation is linked to what we know as the "bronze" fallow mutation, i.e. they are in the same chromosome. After many attempts, over many years, by many breeders, to my knowledge a grey bronze fallow does not exist yet. So, my believe is we are seeing something here that is very similar to the behaviour of cinnamon and SL-ino, i.e. two mutations very close to one another (in the chromosome) that is extremely hard to successfully cross over. In our own breeding results from a grey (blue) / bronze fallow x green bronze fallow / blue, we get many blue and green bronze fallows, and to date exclusively grey and greygreen splits, but never a grey or grey green bronze fallow.

PS: sorry for going a bit off topic.

Great find. How many seasons did you breed with this pair?

madas

Only 3 season, but our results seems consistent with other reports. I know of a 12 year old grey / bronze fallow cock (one of the very first in the country) that have also never produced a grey bronze fallow. From email correspondence with a well known person in the Netherlands, his pair seems to behave in the same way as well.

[madas]

a well known person in the Netherlands, his pair seems to behave in the same way as well.

Let me guess: he wrote two books about psittacula species. ;)

madas

[madas]

to a normal female that isn't opaline, cinnamon or ino (resp. pallid).

Yeah you are right it's not a must have because the female offspring is getting its Z-chromosom from the father. So to clearify: if using only normal females paired to the Edged /sex-linked male you can only use the female offspring for counting resp. calculating the crossover rate. If you like to use a sex-linked colored female with the Edged /sex-linked male then both should carry the same sex-linked mutation. Then you can use both the male and female offspring for the calculations.

but it is just as likely to happen in the male offspring, which can only be ID by breeding results.

Do you mean the Edged /sex-linked crossover males? Or the Edged-sex-linked males? The last one should be distinguishable too.

madas

[Johan S]

Let me guess: he wrote two books about psittacula species. ;)

but it is just as likely to happen in the male offspring, which can only be ID by breeding results.

Do you mean the Edged /sex-linked crossover males? Or the Edged-sex-linked males? The last one should be distinguishable too.

madas[/quote]

I meant one can not determine if edged/opaline males are linked or not by phenotype alone if bred with a normal hen paired to an edged / opaline cock. But it seems as if we are mostly in agreement after a few iterations of clarifying our statements.

[Ring0Neck]

*

Madas said: So to clarify: if using only normal females paired to the Edged /sex-linked male you can only use the female offspring for counting resp. calculating the crossover rate. If you like to use a sex-linked colored female with the Edged /sex-linked male then both should carry the same sex-linked mutation. Then you can use both the male and female offspring for the calculations.

Johan
I wil have a few dom. edged pairs down this year, mostly with cinnamon colored or split cinn so i can record offspring nrs here.

If anyone has any suggestions or ideas what else to pair dom edge with, happy to listen.



8 3 IV

[Johan S]

Johan
I wil have a few dom. edged pairs down this year, mostly with cinnamon colored or split cinn so i can record offspring nrs here.

If anyone has any suggestions or ideas what else to pair dom edge with, happy to listen.

8 3 IV

Thanks Ben, the cinnamon numbers would help a lot, seeing as if it seems nobody else has or feels like sharing numbers.

It will perhaps not give a lot of info (cinnamon and ino loci being so close), but I think that an edged-pallid could be a very interesting looking bird. And it would be easier to work with pallid than ino, which would most probably mask edged very severely.

Anybody every seen, heard or have a pic of an edged-pallid? I suspect it would be similar to pallidino, but more "edged".

[Ring0Neck]

Anybody every seen, heard or have a pic of an edged-pallid? I suspect it would be similar to pallidino, but more "edged".

I was thinking of asking same Question

What if the head is same as opaline ? reversed... (dreaming)
Thoughts: Added Edit: We can see in the opaline the modification in flight feathers, although edged has a diff pattern, changing/ reversing the phenomena would lead to an opaline looking bird, and if at all remotely possible edge n pallid xover could just do it.

I will have dom edged paired to: Pallidino, pallid & pallid Indigo.

I will do my pairings in a few weeks.

[Carr.birds]

I have more than enough SL Edged IRN’s. 3 DF cocks and plenty of sf cock and hens. Combinations with dilute, adm pied, cleartail, clearheaded fallow, cinnamon and opaline already exist. Any suggestions for other combinations are welcome.

Let us stick to SL combinations to help determine where it is situated.

It isn’t easy to distinguish between Cinnamon-edged and edged females although it is easier between sf cinnamon-edged and sf edged males. Cinnamon-edged females are very patchy when they are juveniles. It is a dull greyish blue colour bird in the blue series. As they mature the body colour change to a somewhat brighter colour.

Pics will be send to a member that can upload them.

Tienie

[Johan S]

I have more than enough SL Edged IRN’s. 3 DF cocks and plenty of sf cock and hens. Combinations with dilute, adm pied, cleartail, clearheaded fallow, cinnamon and opaline already exist. Any suggestions for other combinations are welcome.

Tienie, after that list, what is left ???

Let us stick to SL combinations to help determine where it is situated.

I agree, since the challenge is to see if we can get the crossing over ratio before somebody else reports it elsewhere. I would really enjoy it if it could happen right here in this section of the forum, rather than in some other corners of the internet. Since slate (to my knowledge) has not been ID'ed in IRN, we are stuck with cinnamon, ino/pallid and opaline, of which I think ino is least likely to give easily identifiable offspring. It's already a bit of a mission ID'ing edged-opaline. Then again, I wouldn't write off ino completely. We've seen some funny things happening with edged that "shouldn't theoretically" happen. We might very well end up with something looking similar to a budgerigar lacewing (cinnamon-ino) phenotype. @Ben, now I'm dreaming!

Pics will be send to a member that can upload them.

Are you sure you can't upload pics yet? I think you should have more than enough posts by now that the forum will allow it.

[Ring0Neck]

Nice looking bird you have Tienie - I like it.
http://www.mcw-indianringnecks.com.au/w ... e_pied.jpg

What bird is this? It does not say on the website:
http://www.mcw-indianringnecks.com.au/w ... irds_1.jpg
Is it dom. edge dilute adm pied?


What do you reckon? do you see cinnamon in this bird? 2 y old.
http://parakeet.me/irn/f/gy.jpg

83IV


Tienie's pics:

SL Edged-opaline hen and her opaline mother
http://parakeet.me/irn/f/edge/SL%20Edge ... mother.jpg

SL Edged-cinnamon violet blue
http://parakeet.me/irn/f/edge/SL%20Edge ... 20blue.jpg

SL Edged blueturq adm pied cock
http://parakeet.me/irn/f/edge/SL%20Edge ... 20cock.jpg

SL Edged blue clearheaded fallow
http://parakeet.me/irn/f/edge/SL%20Edge ... fallow.jpg

SL Edged adm pied young hen
http://parakeet.me/irn/f/edge/SL%20Edge ... %20hen.jpg

SL Edged adm pied 2 yr old hen
http://parakeet.me/irn/f/edge/SL%20Edge ... %20hen.jpg

[Johan S]

What bird is this? It does not say on the website:
http://www.mcw-indianringnecks.com.au/w ... irds_1.jpg
Is it dom. edge dilute adm pied?

I stand to be corrected, but I think that is a blue opaline dilute combination.

[Carr.birds]

Johan

You are correct, it is a blue dilute opaline

Tienie

[prodigy]

Hi Tienie,

You have any Green Opaline Edge males?

Regards,

Peter

[Ring0Neck]

Tienie said: Tienie said: The only SL mutation it was tested is cinnamon. (SL edged/cinnamon & green). The problem you are sitting with is that it is very difficult to distinguish between cinnamon edged and edged females. I have noticed that in this combination the ruby cinnamon eye darkens and doesn’t assist you in identifying the cinnamon edged females.

Would i be right in saying that DF edged males will also be hard to identify if cinnamon is present or not?
how about young birds in the nest?, will we be able to identify edge & cinn.edge by their eye color?

[Carr.birds]

Edged-cinnamon doesn't show the tipical ruby eye colour of cinnamon.

Tienie

[Ring0Neck]

Got a new Olympus camera and here's what i got
Sl Edged

http://parakeet.me/irn/f/edge/edgez.jpg

Df Turq. grey Edged cinnamon male
http://parakeet.me/irn/f/edge/edgegreydf.jpg

Turq df edged cinn? & turq edged both males
http://parakeet.me/irn/f/edge/turqbEdge.jpg

click on the photo to enlarge


Here's 1 4 a puzzle: What i'm I?
http://parakeet.me/irn/f/whit.jpg
hen: Albino? Ino masking violet? Ino-CHF ? Ino-CHF masking violet possibly cobalt? in SL or NSL

83IV

[Johan S]

Hi Ben,

thanks for the pics. When I look at the first picture, the phenotype of your edged birds seems a bit different from ours. Don't know if it is the camera or not. There doesn't seem to be excessive sun, so the colours should be accurately captured. To me, esp. the grey seems much lighter than our grey edged cock. Are those birds hens/cocks? That makes a difference.

As for your mystery bird, I'm pretty sure no structural mutation is at work here. The slight blue tinge in some feathers compares very well with the blue bird also in the pic.

[madas]

Hi Ben,

thanks for the pics. When I look at the first picture, the phenotype of your edged birds seems a bit different from ours. Don't know if it is the camera or not. There doesn't seem to be excessive sun, so the colours should be accurately captured. To me, esp. the grey seems much lighter than our grey edged cock. Are those birds hens/cocks? That makes a difference.

As for your mystery bird, I'm pretty sure no structural mutation is at work here. The slight blue tinge in some feathers compares very well with the blue bird also in the pic.

The bird in the front and the back look like they are carrying cinnamon as well. They show some kind of a "pied" pattern which is typical for cinnamon edged combos.

madas

[Johan S]

Madas, those were my exact thoughts, esp if the birds are young cocks.

[Ring0Neck]

Hi Guys,

These edged birds are 2 years and older.
First pic of 3 : Turq. edge grey cinn. hen in the middle (was paired to blue edge/cinn) is mother of the other 2 hens,


The mystery bird, i'm looking at the eyes being full red that makes me think it's chf and both parents carried violet.
I'lll pair her up to a blue/chf to see the offspring. There will be some nice cockbirds for the pet market.
I had a 5 year old albino masking sf violet hen (sold her) and i could never get the blue sheen on the pics...

[Recio]

Hi Guys,

These edged birds are 2 years and older.
First pic of 3 : Turq. edge grey cinn. hen in the middle (was paired to blue edge/cinn) is mother of the other 2 hens,


The mystery bird, i'm looking at the eyes being full red that makes me think it's chf and both parents carried violet.
I'lll pair her up to a blue/chf to see the offspring. There will be some nice cockbirds for the pet market.
I had a 5 year old albino masking sf violet hen (sold her) and i could never get the blue sheen on the pics...

Hi Ben,

Violet is described as showing an iridescent colour (Deon's book) ... but I have seen some Blue Violets which do not show this iridescence. I think that there are several "different" types of "Violets"; some with iridescence (Violet affecting outer cortex surface???) and other without iridescence. The iridescent violets could produce this blue sheen in the combo with SL-ino or NSL-ino ... but not the non iridescent violets, which would produce normal albino masking violet offspring. Are they different alleles of the same locus ... or different mutations? ... food for thougth.

Regards

Recio

[Ring0Neck]

I think that there are several "different" types of "Violets"; some with iridescence (Violet affecting outer cortex surface???) and other without iridescence.

Indeed something to chew..

Could this be linked to the Emeralds that are non flourescent? same cause diff. effect?

[Ring0Neck]

Check out this pic, can download it to zoom in.
http://parakeet.me/irn/f/edge/edgedviong.jpg
Used flash and it is interesting the color of the turq. patches on wings almost ...rusty color
cinn. df egde df turq most likely.

and something smoother.. emerald grey (not a great pic but the greenish overall body is captured nontheless).
http://parakeet.me/irn/f/edge/emr.jpg

http://parakeet.me/irn/f/emeraldGrCk.jpg

83IV

[ranechild]

Has anyone ever put together a diagram illustrating the different chromosomes and alleles? I have been reading this forum for months now trying to understand the genetics of IRNs, but I'm a picture person. The words are not helping me to understand very well. Maybe the idea of cross over rates could be illustrated?