This is probably directed to the S.A members but to anyone who knows or seen recessive lutino head & tails.
Does anyone have a picture of one and are they desirable or just a yellow looking bird.
I have a friend with a couple of Albino cock birds breed out of blue series head & tails (split to colour) from the last couple of years any they don't know what to pair them up to. They are also possibly carrying violet as one of the parents was a violet. Both cock birds are possibly head & tail or at least split for h&t.
They have made the assumption that they are carrying the recessive lutino gene because they are cock birds and would be the only way Albino's could be breed.
They thought maybe going back through green series birds to breed yellow ones getting away from the blue series to cut out the albino possibilities.
Anyone got thoughts on what they should pair these cock birds up to.
I can see they are just a problem bird when you are playing around with blue series birds as all young from this breeding pair could possibly carry the recessive lutino gene, which seems to be more prevelant with each breeding season in Australia.
Your thoughts would be appreciated.
Regards Glenn
Recessive Lutino H&T
Moderator: Mods
Re: Recessive Lutino H&T
Hi Glenn,
Peter from SA has NSL Ino WHWT, see his pic below and he will probably upload more hopefully.
Whoever this breeder is, this is my thought on the subject, which i already told other breeders in Australia my point of view.
1. First and formost, he should stop immediately the breeding of WHWT from all that bloodline.
I would like to know who it is as i would certainly not buy any whwt's from that line. (no offence)
Reason is, look at the damage/spread a single split NSL INO does:
Take 2 blues, one split NSL INO, either male or female same result:
1.0 blue /NSLino
x 0.1 blue
% from all 1.0
50.0% 1.0 blue /NSLino
50.0% 1.0 blue
% from all 0.1
50.0% 0.1 blue /NSLino
50.0% 0.1 blue
50% of birds are infected, with a single split !!. the biggest danger is that breeders will not be aware of the spread as they are all split never showing color
money rolls in and the scond breeder breeds more n more NSL INO splits.
Time goes by the buck keeps rolling cashing in, but 5 years from now:
This infected bloodline has probably produced by now 100 birds say whwt split NSL INO, keeping same pairing will never throw an INO
We already see the NSL INO appearing in whwt in OZ.
Willy has bred one this breeding season from split whwt's as well. it was a cockbird, confirming NSL INO.
We aready face a big problem with NSL INO, unseen, invisible, but right under our noses because we were not informed of the consequences.
Example: If you have a pair of blues and it throws an Albino. The logical approach is to get rid of the cockbird and Ino young.
Convinced that you got rid of INO you add a new cockbird and keep on breeding never again breeding an INO
But
If these birds were NSL INO 50% of those birds that you are certain are clean, are carrying in fact around in splits NSL from the mother.
Other breeders that kept doing the same thing, it will be so bad that it will become the norm to loose birds to ino and impossible to cure !
Forsee and Prevent before it happends. I think it's already late !!!
What i'm saying to individual breeders: Lose a little for the good of everyone, for everyone to win a lot.
Disspose of the first pair and save hundreds of future dreadful pairs in top mutation from NSL INO.
2. Should he breed these birds at all?
YES !
If he wants to make money from these birds other then pets then i say NO should not be bred and dissposed of.
I believe that we know very little about NSL and it's allelic capabilities etc..
I am all for cross breeding with other mutations and experiment.
A note of caution is that all offspring that is bred, should not be sold for breeding other then pets, unless someone wants NSL ino
I am interested in perhaps getting the 2 y old Albino cockbird to start my own experiments with NSL INO.
3. Let's say the breeder breeds a violet whwt, what now? do you sell it on?, knowing that even if bird is split NSL it will only throw ino if paired to another split or NSL ino bird. Encouraging the spread yet again.
My opinion is this: sacrifice 1 year and pair the violet whwht poss/NSL ino to an NSL bird, if no nsl INOS are bred then you can "assume" the violet whwt is not split to NSL INO. Either way, All young from this pair should be sold as pets as they are 100% split NSL INO.
Ben
Peter's NSL INO whwt
Peter from SA has NSL Ino WHWT, see his pic below and he will probably upload more hopefully.
Whoever this breeder is, this is my thought on the subject, which i already told other breeders in Australia my point of view.
1. First and formost, he should stop immediately the breeding of WHWT from all that bloodline.
I would like to know who it is as i would certainly not buy any whwt's from that line. (no offence)
Reason is, look at the damage/spread a single split NSL INO does:
Take 2 blues, one split NSL INO, either male or female same result:
1.0 blue /NSLino
x 0.1 blue
% from all 1.0
50.0% 1.0 blue /NSLino
50.0% 1.0 blue
% from all 0.1
50.0% 0.1 blue /NSLino
50.0% 0.1 blue
50% of birds are infected, with a single split !!. the biggest danger is that breeders will not be aware of the spread as they are all split never showing color
money rolls in and the scond breeder breeds more n more NSL INO splits.
Time goes by the buck keeps rolling cashing in, but 5 years from now:
This infected bloodline has probably produced by now 100 birds say whwt split NSL INO, keeping same pairing will never throw an INO
We already see the NSL INO appearing in whwt in OZ.
Willy has bred one this breeding season from split whwt's as well. it was a cockbird, confirming NSL INO.
We aready face a big problem with NSL INO, unseen, invisible, but right under our noses because we were not informed of the consequences.
Example: If you have a pair of blues and it throws an Albino. The logical approach is to get rid of the cockbird and Ino young.
Convinced that you got rid of INO you add a new cockbird and keep on breeding never again breeding an INO
But
If these birds were NSL INO 50% of those birds that you are certain are clean, are carrying in fact around in splits NSL from the mother.
Other breeders that kept doing the same thing, it will be so bad that it will become the norm to loose birds to ino and impossible to cure !
Forsee and Prevent before it happends. I think it's already late !!!
What i'm saying to individual breeders: Lose a little for the good of everyone, for everyone to win a lot.
Disspose of the first pair and save hundreds of future dreadful pairs in top mutation from NSL INO.
2. Should he breed these birds at all?
YES !
If he wants to make money from these birds other then pets then i say NO should not be bred and dissposed of.
I believe that we know very little about NSL and it's allelic capabilities etc..
I am all for cross breeding with other mutations and experiment.
A note of caution is that all offspring that is bred, should not be sold for breeding other then pets, unless someone wants NSL ino
I am interested in perhaps getting the 2 y old Albino cockbird to start my own experiments with NSL INO.
3. Let's say the breeder breeds a violet whwt, what now? do you sell it on?, knowing that even if bird is split NSL it will only throw ino if paired to another split or NSL ino bird. Encouraging the spread yet again.
My opinion is this: sacrifice 1 year and pair the violet whwht poss/NSL ino to an NSL bird, if no nsl INOS are bred then you can "assume" the violet whwt is not split to NSL INO. Either way, All young from this pair should be sold as pets as they are 100% split NSL INO.
Ben
Peter's NSL INO whwt
Re: Recessive Lutino H&T
Hi Glenn, I am not very experienced with this combination and struggle to tell them apart from normal NSLino. Breeders of these birds mention that the head of the combination bird is a more pronounced yellow than compared to normal NSLino. However, I will only try to tell them apart when a NSLino is sitting next to a NSLino cleartail. Is the bird of importance? To some South Africans interested in breeding "super" psittican birds, yes. To the rest, not really. However, I'm not aware of any Australian breeders working on red IRN. Perhaps you or Ben knows somebody in Oz-land that have produced higher than normal red in birds.mallee_1 wrote:This is probably directed to the S.A members but to anyone who knows or seen recessive lutino head & tails.
Does anyone have a picture of one and are they desirable or just a yellow looking bird.
Ben, this will be the first time that I differ from you, but let's not argue the point.Ring0Neck wrote:
1. First and formost, he should stop immediately the breeding of WHWT from all that bloodline.
I would like to know who it is as i would certainly not buy any whwt's from that line. (no offence)
Re: Recessive Lutino H&T
I am getting rid of my NSL Ino, 2/3 poss split siblings and split parents. If nobody wants them I'll use them for fosters. It is a problem in CHCT's. If all CHCT birds are split NSL Ino and all red eyed chicks are killed, then the only problem is 25% less birds. Apparently that has been going on since the birds arrived in Oz. I will guarantee no SL Ino, Pallid and Cinamon but impossible to be sure about no NSL Ino in CHCTs.
Re: Recessive Lutino H&T
Long before then, Willy. That's why we have the same thing in SA. The crossing must have already started in Europe and the birds were exported all over. However, it hasn't reached problematic levels here (yet). It is actually rather difficult to find NSLino. However, the mutation suffers from the reputation of SL ino, being very common and unwanted by many breeders. I find them interesting, as apparently they differ from SL ino under UV. I'd like to see for myself, which is why I'm looking for one.trabots wrote:Apparently that has been going on since the birds arrived in Oz.
Re: Recessive Lutino H&T
NSL INO is rare in AU also.It is actually rather difficult to find NSLino
Nsl ino is hard to find for a distinct reason:
I remember reading on yahoo discussions about NSl INO , and it was basically said, (paraphasing):
Many breeders when they find an ino in the nest, they silently rid of ino and perhaps cockbird
they'll never let you know they had ino let alone investigate what type.
always assuming that it is the common SL INO. no one stops to do the right thing as Willy and earlier a few years back Chris W.
and others have done. Most would not care, or worse, they don't know anything about NSL INO and it's existance but a fair few.
Most breeders here no longer do sexing for INO birds, INO's value $50 and sexing $27-$35.
We might be surprised how many NSL INOs are about, does anyone know? care? should they?
If Joe the breeder breeds "yellow" he has no idea and no interest to him if SL or NSL, i don't blame him.
moral of the story : more education & awareness
The more surprising the ino in the nest, the more likely is that it is NSL INO as it can hide for longer making the breeder believe his bloodline is clear of INO.
"SL INO however can not stay long underwater
like a whale" I don't want to label NSL INO as a Foe but what we already know and what we learnt from it's cousin SL it does not look pretty, and with SL INO you can always remove the split cockbirds and problem solved! with SL INO you always get nice clean Hens when you have say an Albino masking violet hen paired to a blue - If you have NSL Albino? 100% infection in splits
NSL is much worse, it goes undetected for years and when it starts to surface it is too late to clean up.
I am all hands up to breed it and experiment with it, mix it with other mutations but it has to be done in a controlled manner.
Irresposible breeding can become a nightmare. What i mean is the complexity of removing this mutation from a bloodline, simply can not be done.
Let's assume i breed Clear Tails for 7 years, never encountering an ino during this time.
all of a sudden an ino pops up in the nestbox from a cockbird you bred for 7 years and now paired to a new acquired hen Inos pop up.
What do you do? - I just hope it does not happen to anyone.
All that work /bloodline that was worked on is ruined and you now know that you have NSL INO in half those birds but no idea which.
taking hens and cockbirds with it. An Sl INO will leave you with clean hens at least.
Only cross breeding will tell and that takes years and might as well give up.
These are the dangers i can see, now i'd also like to get some NSL INO to find some benefits it has to offer, perhaps in our persuit for red, somehow i doubt it.
Emerald could hold the key to some amazing new colors/mutations.
Ben
PS: Gelnn you said:
They thought maybe going back through green series birds to breed yellow ones getting away from the blue series to cut out the albino possibilities.
We need to do more research on NSL INO, But that would be a big mistake in my opinion. why?
If you split the pair that's NSl INo Split and replace one with a green clean bird, you'll never get another visible INO but undermine all the young 50% will be split NSL INO. Situation is worse then before.
If you really want Lutinos instead of Albinos you'll have to breed the albino cockbird to a green hen and use one of the splits from their offspring
All exercise seems fruitless to me, after 3 extra years of pet market birds and all has changed is the color from white to yellow.
Violet is a yesterday high, all breeders are full of violet birds almost replacing the blue altogether.
I suggest breeding this pair and offspring 100% for pet market, I think there's a market for top end whwt as pets, they are magnificent and people will pay top dollar to have a unique bird as companion, after all this friendship can outlast a marriage on average.
Glenn, Most of us already know everything what was said above, no doubt, but at least if explained in detail more and more breeders can learn off this forum, regardless if the one it was addressed to does or does not do anything about it.
You could say: Take one for the team. Easy for me to say, i did not invest in those birds only to see NSL Ino pop in the nest, but as a consolation: it happened to most of us, question is : what happends next.
Re: Recessive Lutino H&T
Hi Glen,
Happy to take them all off your friends hands
This Pic is of a 1 year old Albino NSL CT (notice visually that the head and tail are already brighter than a normal Albino)
This mature NSLino CT bird belongs to another SA breeder Tinnie Carr (much better picture with a Nikon camera vs my little iphone and a much better example of what I was trying to get across)
Also the only way to establish if they are are true NLSino is to test breed them because you could also get a Male Albino CT from two CT/ino birds.
So the only why is to put the Cock bird to a normal green or blue Hen and obviously if any yellow or white females apper then it in a normal SLino.
regards,
Peter
Happy to take them all off your friends hands
This Pic is of a 1 year old Albino NSL CT (notice visually that the head and tail are already brighter than a normal Albino)
This mature NSLino CT bird belongs to another SA breeder Tinnie Carr (much better picture with a Nikon camera vs my little iphone and a much better example of what I was trying to get across)
Also the only way to establish if they are are true NLSino is to test breed them because you could also get a Male Albino CT from two CT/ino birds.
So the only why is to put the Cock bird to a normal green or blue Hen and obviously if any yellow or white females apper then it in a normal SLino.
regards,
Peter
Re: Recessive Lutino H&T
Ben,
Take one for the team??? I dont own the birds so wont effect me as I wont buy any h&t from these people anyway knowing what is going on. They are quite happy to move in the direction of going through green series bird to breed splits and pairing up, they are not in it for the money!!!!!! as most people seem to be.
Heres a fact they have now breed another Albino from another pair of h&T birds they bought from another breeder,this bird still to be sexed and could be slino but chances are it could be another nslino, so they have 6 birds all from different breeders that appear to be split nslino, so how in the hell any breeders out there can say there birds are nslino free beats me.
This leads to the current situation of the h&t's, all the rage at the moment, but what happens in years to come where we want straight coloured birds for some new mutation that crops up, are we going to have split H&T's everywhere because people have breed splits together and just sold off as say a violet not saying it is possibly split h&t.
I have been through this with the red rumps and budgies, its going to happen and is happening with the Indians so we are not going to be the wiser on what most Indains will be carrying in there genes, lucky dip!!
I just hope people keep there breeding programes managed to keep pure lines of different mutations so this dosn't occur, but not likely as you cant even be confident in what you buy now.
I agree with what you have said, but if someone has a love for a particular mutation let them follow there interest and develope it, as long as they are genuine when they sell off their birds.
This certainly sparked a hot issue with what going on in Aus, have heard of more Albinos being breed this year from the h&t, so it was in the original shipment and has been just hiding waiting to pop out.
Regards Glenn
Take one for the team??? I dont own the birds so wont effect me as I wont buy any h&t from these people anyway knowing what is going on. They are quite happy to move in the direction of going through green series bird to breed splits and pairing up, they are not in it for the money!!!!!! as most people seem to be.
Heres a fact they have now breed another Albino from another pair of h&T birds they bought from another breeder,this bird still to be sexed and could be slino but chances are it could be another nslino, so they have 6 birds all from different breeders that appear to be split nslino, so how in the hell any breeders out there can say there birds are nslino free beats me.
This leads to the current situation of the h&t's, all the rage at the moment, but what happens in years to come where we want straight coloured birds for some new mutation that crops up, are we going to have split H&T's everywhere because people have breed splits together and just sold off as say a violet not saying it is possibly split h&t.
I have been through this with the red rumps and budgies, its going to happen and is happening with the Indians so we are not going to be the wiser on what most Indains will be carrying in there genes, lucky dip!!
I just hope people keep there breeding programes managed to keep pure lines of different mutations so this dosn't occur, but not likely as you cant even be confident in what you buy now.
I agree with what you have said, but if someone has a love for a particular mutation let them follow there interest and develope it, as long as they are genuine when they sell off their birds.
This certainly sparked a hot issue with what going on in Aus, have heard of more Albinos being breed this year from the h&t, so it was in the original shipment and has been just hiding waiting to pop out.
Regards Glenn
Re: Recessive Lutino H&T
Hi Glenn,
I was refering to whoever has to take one for the team, i knew they are someone else's birds.
You said:
I agree 100%. As i mentioned in my previous post, i am also interested to breed NSL Ino's to see where it leads us.
Ben
I was refering to whoever has to take one for the team, i knew they are someone else's birds.
You said:
I agree with what you have said, but if someone has a love for a particular mutation let them follow there interest and develope it, as long as they are genuine when they sell off their birds.
I agree 100%. As i mentioned in my previous post, i am also interested to breed NSL Ino's to see where it leads us.
Ben
Re: Recessive Lutino H&T
Hi Glen,
Are you able to get photo's of the bird's ?
Shots of the eyes and head would be an added bonus !
And has your friend only got males ?
How many has he got, as I might have a very interesting breeding experiment for him.
Regards,
Peter
Are you able to get photo's of the bird's ?
Shots of the eyes and head would be an added bonus !
And has your friend only got males ?
How many has he got, as I might have a very interesting breeding experiment for him.
Regards,
Peter
Re: Recessive Lutino H&T
Glenn,
You said:
Look at my first post half way through i said:
I think that nsl is spread right throughout OZ ringnecks at the top mutations, since all breeders were only protecting against SL INO
I remember Mick mentioned in a discussion: " I only buy hens when i get in new stock.. to safeguard againt INO."
Well that is not safeguarding anyone against NSL spread.
I don't know how it can be stopped from spreading as most breeders spread it in splits never knowing they have nsl
I agree it will probably be NSL because SL would have been stopped by now, if DNA'ed hen we still don't know if NSl. only way is to pair her up with NSL Albino cock, if all offspring is non-ino then they are SL X NSL.
Your question still stands:
How the ... are we going to clear NSL ino to be sure you have clean birds?
I only know one way and that is way too messy to work for all birds.
To test a bird against NSL you pair it up to an NSL INO bird - trouble is, all offsprings are splits... nsl at least.
but if non of the offspring is INO then you "could" label that bird NSL INO Free.
How many chicks would satisfy that assumption? 4-5 chicks?.... Messy
Other ideas are welcome.
Ben
You said:
Heres a fact they have now breed another Albino from another pair of h&T birds they bought from another breeder,this bird still to be sexed and could be slino but chances are it could be another nslino, so they have 6 birds all from different breeders that appear to be split nslino, so how in the hell any breeders out there can say there birds are nslino free beats me.
Look at my first post half way through i said:
Foresee and Prevent before it happends. I think it's already late !!!
I think that nsl is spread right throughout OZ ringnecks at the top mutations, since all breeders were only protecting against SL INO
I remember Mick mentioned in a discussion: " I only buy hens when i get in new stock.. to safeguard againt INO."
Well that is not safeguarding anyone against NSL spread.
I don't know how it can be stopped from spreading as most breeders spread it in splits never knowing they have nsl
I agree it will probably be NSL because SL would have been stopped by now, if DNA'ed hen we still don't know if NSl. only way is to pair her up with NSL Albino cock, if all offspring is non-ino then they are SL X NSL.
Your question still stands:
How the ... are we going to clear NSL ino to be sure you have clean birds?
I only know one way and that is way too messy to work for all birds.
To test a bird against NSL you pair it up to an NSL INO bird - trouble is, all offsprings are splits... nsl at least.
but if non of the offspring is INO then you "could" label that bird NSL INO Free.
How many chicks would satisfy that assumption? 4-5 chicks?.... Messy
Other ideas are welcome.
Ben
Re: Recessive Lutino H&T
Are you just as upset with the fact that you almost can't breed two green birds together these days with a blue or turquoise popping up? Or is it only ino that is carrying this bad reputation? Just curious.
Re: Recessive Lutino H&T
Hi Johan,
Not upset at all, i'm upping the tempo on the subject to make a point.
I also thought NSL is rare, not anymore.
We can always accept the fact that ino is everywhere and carry on as we were, and if that is the feeling out there, i conform.
I have a friend breeding pure greens, great to have him around.
Not upset at all, i'm upping the tempo on the subject to make a point.
I also thought NSL is rare, not anymore.
We can always accept the fact that ino is everywhere and carry on as we were, and if that is the feeling out there, i conform.
I have a friend breeding pure greens, great to have him around.
Re: Recessive Lutino H&T
That is quite rare! I wouldn't mind getting myself a pair of those...Ring0Neck wrote:I have a friend breeding pure greens, great to have him around.
Re: Recessive Lutino H&T
Ben,
The horse has bolted, I think we will just have accept that when we buy a H&T bird it could well be split NSLino, it simply can't be removed easily, over it.
Has your mate with the greens test breed them back through blues to ensure they are pure greens? as Johan said most green birds getting around are usaully split to blue or turqouise.
If he has, I think most of us would be interested in some.
Johan, I will be at these people place on the weekend, what pairing do you have in mind, not sure if I can get photos. The older Albino's have all been cock birds so the thought that the only way they can be breed from Blue/H&T x Violetblue H&T is that they are recessive in nature.
Look forward to passing on possible pairing to them as they just want to play around with them and not chase the dollars.
Regards Glenn
The horse has bolted, I think we will just have accept that when we buy a H&T bird it could well be split NSLino, it simply can't be removed easily, over it.
Has your mate with the greens test breed them back through blues to ensure they are pure greens? as Johan said most green birds getting around are usaully split to blue or turqouise.
If he has, I think most of us would be interested in some.
Johan, I will be at these people place on the weekend, what pairing do you have in mind, not sure if I can get photos. The older Albino's have all been cock birds so the thought that the only way they can be breed from Blue/H&T x Violetblue H&T is that they are recessive in nature.
Look forward to passing on possible pairing to them as they just want to play around with them and not chase the dollars.
Regards Glenn
Re: Recessive Lutino H&T
Glenn, if really interested in breeding ino H&T, I'd think one will need to go back to green series birds (YHYT). I don't know/think that the albinos will show the same effect in the head region. The albino cocks bred might very well be albino WHWT already... Regarding your conclusion, I do it the same way. An ino cock bred from H&T must be recessive ino. Hens can still be doubtful.mallee_1 wrote:Johan, I will be at these people place on the weekend, what pairing do you have in mind, not sure if I can get photos. The older Albino's have all been cock birds so the thought that the only way they can be breed from Blue/H&T x Violetblue H&T is that they are recessive in nature.
With the birds already available, I suppose the simplest setup will be to take one of the albino cocks and put it on a WHWT that is suspected to carry ino (if available), i.e. albino / cleartail x cleartail / ino.
Re: Recessive Lutino H&T
The pure greens. He would rather trade then sell.
He has a couple of breeders that get most of this pair's young, he only managed to hold back a few.
Breeding for 4 years in a row greens it is almost ceratain that at least 1 bird is pure green.
If the other is split blue, even test mating offspring with a blue and get all greens does not guarantee both as pure greens because half only of the young will be pure green.
Only if you do breed a blue you can say that at least one parent is split blue.
No blues so far and breeders keep coming back for more.
So very hard to stamp both greens not split to blue but we can safely say that one is.
Ben
Re: Recessive Lutino H&T
Glenn,
You could do this pairing to bring green birds split nsl ino. Albino cockbird X Green hen
I guess green cockbird X CT/ino in case your first pair does not produce many or any young.
You'd want Turquoise also as another pairing to an nsl ino/ct or albino ct.
a few years project, make a plan where he's heading and assess if he wants to take on that challange
An NSL Albino i would be interested to get off him if he has one to sell.
**** I have visited this breeder with green birds today and i took some pics.
Update : this year he did split the green pair as follows:
GreyBlue male X Green hen = offspring 2 x greens 1 x grey-green
just fledged.
Cockbird was paired to a blue lacewing hen and hen did not lay, she's 1 y o
not so good pics below of the hen and young and cockbird
http://parakeet.me/irn/greenMale.jpg
http://parakeet.me/irn/greenHen.jpg
You could do this pairing to bring green birds split nsl ino. Albino cockbird X Green hen
I guess green cockbird X CT/ino in case your first pair does not produce many or any young.
You'd want Turquoise also as another pairing to an nsl ino/ct or albino ct.
a few years project, make a plan where he's heading and assess if he wants to take on that challange
An NSL Albino i would be interested to get off him if he has one to sell.
**** I have visited this breeder with green birds today and i took some pics.
Update : this year he did split the green pair as follows:
GreyBlue male X Green hen = offspring 2 x greens 1 x grey-green
just fledged.
Cockbird was paired to a blue lacewing hen and hen did not lay, she's 1 y o
not so good pics below of the hen and young and cockbird
http://parakeet.me/irn/greenMale.jpg
http://parakeet.me/irn/greenHen.jpg
Re: Recessive Lutino H&T
A good pairing to prove the Albino being NSL INO
Pair up the Albino Cock or a split INO X Green Pallid
Offspring for NSL INO= all birds phenotype will be normal colored birds but all split NSL INO
if SL ino= you'll have pallidino cocks & ino hens
If NSL INO - you can use the offspring splits to introduce nsl to lacewings
Pair up the Albino Cock or a split INO X Green Pallid
Offspring for NSL INO= all birds phenotype will be normal colored birds but all split NSL INO
if SL ino= you'll have pallidino cocks & ino hens
If NSL INO - you can use the offspring splits to introduce nsl to lacewings
Re: Recessive Lutino H&T
Thought everyone might find this interesting.
I can only conclude from this that the "problem" of NSLino in cleartails has always existed, and that it will continue to exist indefinitely.
Anybody knows what happened to Jay? He seems very knowledgeable and it would be wonderful to get him back.
Source: http://www.indianringneck.com/forum/vie ... 823#p56823Jay wrote: Just a little history on the Cleartail mutation...
As reported by European Babu Chauhan on ABA Journal Vol2No1 (1998), the first Cleartail was brought to Europe (Holland) by an exporter named Kewal. He apparently bought this first Cleartail from a fortune teller in Calcutta, India for a mere $15.
It has been observed that Recessive Inos were produced from this bird's progeny... giving rise to the theories that Rec. Ino and Cleartail genes are alleles of the same locus... like Bronze Fallow being an allele of Rec. Ino.
I can only conclude from this that the "problem" of NSLino in cleartails has always existed, and that it will continue to exist indefinitely.
Anybody knows what happened to Jay? He seems very knowledgeable and it would be wonderful to get him back.
Re: Recessive Lutino H&T
Hi,
I have also been looking for Jay in other forums. Several years ago he used to post in a philipin forum... but it was in Tagalo ... and my Tagalo translator was not good enough to follow discusions.
Regards
Recio
I have also been looking for Jay in other forums. Several years ago he used to post in a philipin forum... but it was in Tagalo ... and my Tagalo translator was not good enough to follow discusions.
Regards
Recio
Re: Recessive Lutino H&T
Rec. Ino and Cleartail genes are alleles of the same locus...!?
I have also been thinking of that for a while now,
I was reading that the crossover rate is about 3% . Article was refering to other birds/mutations, if i can find it i can will link it here.
If 3% crossover assumed correct, we can also say that CT if an allele of Rec. Ino what we have seen is about 3% of ino phenotype popping up.
This would also justify a Cockbird being bred and not neccessarily being an NSL Ino !?
I guess pairing an INO cockbird bred out of CT that we assume NSL should be paired up to a Pallid to see if offspring will be Pallidino cocks. If it does give us Pallidinos, then this result will further support the above theory.
I know this is a contrary assumption to what is believed at the moment, however we should question everything till we have satisfying answers.
I also remember reading that the Kings in the old days used to have Lutino ringnecks, i assume that not many other mutations existed at the time, which also makes me draw the conclusion that many mutations have been bred using the INO locus just mutated.
I have more questions then answers, i conclude when i am satisfied it is so. Together many things can be achieved.
.. I have a Grey area in my mind and it is quiet large, whenever i place something there it is always subject to change
ie: do i believe in aliens? neither. today's answer is yes 20% & no 80% subject to change.
Please Note: Everything above is just ideas/thoughts and could well turn out as not being the case and that's fine, as long as we ask questions and try get answers we are on the right track.
BeN
Re: Recessive Lutino H&T
Rec. Lutino
Inheritance: Autosomal recessive.
Description
Body: General yellow.
Tail: Yellow.
Head: Yellow, brighter around the beak; neck ring white with rose in cocks.
Beak/Feet: Red upper and lower mandible; pink feet, light coloured nails.
Eyes: Red with yellowish iris.
Note: Rec. Lutino is rare. Also known as Non Sex-linked Lutino.
The lady in the blue dress
Inheritance: Autosomal recessive.
Description
Body: General yellow.
Tail: Yellow.
Head: Yellow, brighter around the beak; neck ring white with rose in cocks.
Beak/Feet: Red upper and lower mandible; pink feet, light coloured nails.
Eyes: Red with yellowish iris.
Note: Rec. Lutino is rare. Also known as Non Sex-linked Lutino.
The lady in the blue dress
Last edited by prodigy on Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Recessive Lutino H&T
Hi Ben,Ring0Neck wrote:Rec. Ino and Cleartail genes are alleles of the same locus...!?
I have also been thinking of that for a while now,
I was reading that the crossover rate is about 3% . Article was refering to other birds/mutations, if i can find it i can will link it here.
If 3% crossover assumed correct, we can also say that CT if an allele of Rec. Ino what we have seen is about 3% of ino phenotype popping up.
This would also justify a Cockbird being bred and not neccessarily being an NSL Ino !?
I guess pairing an INO cockbird bred out of CT that we assume NSL should be paired up to a Pallid to see if offspring will be Pallidino cocks. If it does give us Pallidinos, then this result will further support the above theory.
I know this is a contrary assumption to what is believed at the moment, however we should question everything till we have satisfying answers.
I also remember reading that the Kings in the old days used to have Lutino ringnecks, i assume that not many other mutations existed at the time, which also makes me draw the conclusion that many mutations have been bred using the INO locus just mutated.
I have more questions then answers, i conclude when i am satisfied it is so. Together many things can be achieved.
.. I have a Grey area in my mind and it is quiet large, whenever i place something there it is always subject to change
ie: do i believe in aliens? neither. today's answer is yes 20% & no 80% subject to change.
Please Note: Everything above is just ideas/thoughts and could well turn out as not being the case and that's fine, as long as we ask questions and try get answers we are on the right track.
BeN
a lot of groundwork has been done in SA on the concept of NSLino and cleartail being allelic. However, it seems that the two are not, as cleartail / NSLino x NSLino / cleartail pairings have produced wildtype babies (double splits), which shouldn't happen for allelic interaction. Also, remember that NSLino cleartails have been bred, and that shouldn't happen if cleartail and NSLino are alleles.
Also, you seem to be mixing up NSLino and SLino. You will never breed a SLino cock bird from two cleartails. You will always require a hen carrying SLino, and a cleartail SLino hen will certainly be easily identified over a cleartail / NSLino hen. So we'll be safe to assume that the parents are carrying NSLino. Paired to pallid you will again get wildtype. At least this part, we don't need to question as it has been verified by breeding results. I think the 3% crossing over you are refering to is between cinnamon and SLino to give 'lacewing', i.e. cinnamon SLino.
Interestingly enough, some of the SLinos imported into SA in the 70's turned out to carry NSLino as well! And some fallows were also bred from that line.
Now remember, this was the time that NSLino in IRN was nothing more than an idea.Re: Recessive Lutino H&T
Hi Ben,
This is the first time I read about a linkage between NSL-ino and cleartails ... and it is a very important linkage (3%). Could you please find where/who made this observation?
Regards
Recio
This is the first time I read about a linkage between NSL-ino and cleartails ... and it is a very important linkage (3%). Could you please find where/who made this observation?
Regards
Recio
Re: Recessive Lutino H&T
Johan, Peter
it's all good, i get that when i don't get my sleep.
In any case i was coming out with new hypothesis not really by the book, and i'm sure i must have mixed them up last night, but rest assured i know the NSL & SL differences
it's all good, i get that when i don't get my sleep.
In any case i was coming out with new hypothesis not really by the book, and i'm sure i must have mixed them up last night, but rest assured i know the NSL & SL differences
Last edited by Ring0Neck on Thu Nov 15, 2012 4:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Recessive Lutino H&T
Happens to the best of us! Esp. at night. No worries.Ring0Neck wrote:In any case i was coming out with new hypothesis not really by the book, and i'm sure i must have mixed them up but last night rest assured i know the NSL & SL differences
However, as Recio mentions, it would be very interesting if there is such a linkage of 3% between cleartail and NSLino. It would mean that they are on the same chromosome, but not at the same locus. Can you confirm that you don't have it mixed up with SLino and cinnamon?
Re: Recessive Lutino H&T
I said:
False alarm Article was not refering to CT & NSL, and i thought i bookmarked it...i'll keep looking.
I will also promise to drink less at the next party
P.S. Thanks Johan, great link.
BeN
I was reading that the crossover rate is about 3% . Article was refering to other birds/mutations, if i can find it i can will link it here.
False alarm
Article was not refering to CT & NSL, and i thought i bookmarked it...i'll keep looking. I will also promise to drink less at the next party
P.S. Thanks Johan, great link.
BeN
Re: Recessive Lutino H&T
Hahaha, better men than you and me have tried. And failed!Ring0Neck wrote:I will also promise to drink less at the next party
P.S. Thanks Johan, great link.
BeN
I also found the link very informative. Wish I could find a copy of the article, but the ABA archives only go back to 2001. Too lazy to bother to write to the editor.
Re: Recessive Lutino H&T
Going out on a limb here...
Here is a "theory" that perhaps we should test breed.
Let's say we have a cockbird split CT or CT paired to say a blue split or CT hen
In the nest we have a cockbird INO
From what we know so far we classify that as NSL INO.
Once this is assumed, it is clear that both parents are split NSL INO
--------
I theorize that it is possible that NSL INO allele is partially used in all CTs, or something similar of this type.
Lutinos have been around from the days of the Kings so i believe that this mutation has been mutated into many forms, like affecting only certain areas of feathers.
To prove that true or false, we need to pair up the cockbird and find an exactly same hen mutation that you used in original mating say Blue CT.
If theory is correct you will once again breed NSL INO Cocks & Hens, even though you know for sure the hen is not split NSL INO.
Problem is that if we don't breed NSL INO still does not dissprove theory, it just means we don't have the right formula to trigger INO phenotype, it could just mean that the other hen had a trigger/mistake or a crossover.
Perhaps certain mutation combinations trigger this, I've noticed reported a lot to do with Dark factor birds & Turquoises
Perhaps we have a crossover which i read in other birds (not ringnecks) is about 3%.
Not really interested why it is not so ! We already know what is proven, does not hurt to ask, what if?
Imagine if humans did not do that, we'd still be on a flat earth and primitive.
Ask Discovery Channel says " Question everything!"
Ben
Re: Recessive Lutino H&T
Hi Recio,Recio wrote:Hi Ben,
This is the first time I read about a linkage between NSL-ino and cleartails ... and it is a very important linkage (3%). Could you please find where/who made this observation?
Regards
Recio
i thought linkage (and crossover rate) could only exist between alleles of different locuses of one chromosome. means blue and dark, cinnamon and opaline, cinnamon and ino, and so on. But not between SLino and pallid or NSLino and bronze fallow. These mutations are alleles of the same locus.
But only a thought.
m.a.d.a.s
Re: Recessive Lutino H&T
Hi Madas, what you say is true, but goes against the NSLino cleartails that have been bred in SA. Therefore, either the two mutations are at different locii, or the NSLino cleartails don't exist. Are you saying you don't think that the birds in SA have been ID'ed correctly?madas wrote:Hi Recio,Recio wrote:Hi Ben,
This is the first time I read about a linkage between NSL-ino and cleartails ... and it is a very important linkage (3%). Could you please find where/who made this observation?
Regards
Recio
i thought linkage (and crossover rate) could only exist between alleles of different locuses of one chromosome. means blue and dark, cinnamon and opaline, cinnamon and ino, and so on. But not between SLino and pallid or NSLino and bronze fallow. These mutations are alleles of the same locus.
But only a thought.
m.a.d.a.s
Re: Recessive Lutino H&T
Johan S wrote:Hi Madas, what you say is true, but goes against the NSLino cleartails that have been bred in SA. Therefore, either the two mutations are at different locii, or the NSLino cleartails don't exist. Are you saying you don't think that the birds in SA have been ID'ed correctly?madas wrote:Hi Recio,Recio wrote:Hi Ben,
This is the first time I read about a linkage between NSL-ino and cleartails ... and it is a very important linkage (3%). Could you please find where/who made this observation?
Regards
Recio
i thought linkage (and crossover rate) could only exist between alleles of different locuses of one chromosome. means blue and dark, cinnamon and opaline, cinnamon and ino, and so on. But not between SLino and pallid or NSLino and bronze fallow. These mutations are alleles of the same locus.
But only a thought.
m.a.d.a.s
Why should this "go against the NSLino clear tails? They can exist if they are alleles of the same loci or if they are two distinct rec. alleles of different locis. Only difference is that if they are alleles of the same loci they are easier to breed.
means breed a NSLino to a cleartail and all youngsters are NSLino Cleartails. If they aren't alleles of the same loci then you will get only green offspring from the same pair. And then you have to pair such double split birds together to get a NSLinoCleartail. Furthermore i would say if they aren't alleles of the same loci the mixed phenotype should tend more into the direction of a "normal" NSLino because the NSLino gen has completely (nearly) striped of the melanin from the feathers. So for the mixed phenotype there is no chance that the remaining melanin which is visible for a normal cleartail could be expressed. In case they are alleles of the same locus the phenotype should show an intermediate phenotype between NSLino and cleartail. Same as for SLino and pallid.I think Tienie did a great job in testing all the "fallow" mutations to NSLino and his NSLino cleartail should be ID'ed correct.
m.a.d.a.s
Re: Recessive Lutino H&T
Hi Madas, if they are alleles of the same loci, homozygous NSLino to homozygous cleartail will give CleartailNSLino (one word), not NSLino cleartail (two words). Also, we know that a heterozygous NSLino shows no effect on melanin production, so you are right that we would expect an intermediate phenotype if there was allelic interaction. However, I have never seen or heard of such a partial cleartail bird with a pallidino-like phenotype. And we should see plenty of them in the nests that give NSLino/cleartail offspring. If you have seen such, pictures would be great! I have not seen in the flesh the difference between CleartailNSLino and NSLino cleartail, but I know more than one breeder that have confirmed that you can see a difference. As far as I know, Tienie did testbreed his CleartailNSLino / blue cock with cleartail to confirm that it is indeed cleartail, but we'll have to confirm to be 100% sure. I, however, also agree with you that the difference will be very slight.
However, I'm feeling creative. Let's assume that we don't have all the pieces of the puzzle to explain the two different cleartail phenotypes. And for this discussion, let's assume that the effect isn't caused by NSLino (which I personally don't think is the case). What if there is another mutation at play that somehow slightly enhances the production in psittacin? I.e. a normal cleartail will be the duller cleartail phenotype, and the second mutation or modifier genes could enhance the standard cleartail phenotype to a more brilliant phenotype. Maybe in such a circumstance it can be envisioned that the CleartailNSLino would also be enhanced.
Now a question: Do you know what the outcome is when two cleartails of different phenotypes are paired together? Would be very interesting and assist with solving the mystery.
Also, we know that a heterozygous NSLino shows no effect on melanin production, so you are right that we would expect an intermediate phenotype if there was allelic interaction. However, I have never seen or heard of such a partial cleartail bird with a pallidino-like phenotype. And we should see plenty of them in the nests that give NSLino/cleartail offspring. If you have seen such, pictures would be great! I have not seen in the flesh the difference between CleartailNSLino and NSLino cleartail, but I know more than one breeder that have confirmed that you can see a difference. As far as I know, Tienie did testbreed his CleartailNSLino / blue cock with cleartail to confirm that it is indeed cleartail, but we'll have to confirm to be 100% sure. I, however, also agree with you that the difference will be very slight.However, I'm feeling creative. Let's assume that we don't have all the pieces of the puzzle to explain the two different cleartail phenotypes. And for this discussion, let's assume that the effect isn't caused by NSLino (which I personally don't think is the case). What if there is another mutation at play that somehow slightly enhances the production in psittacin? I.e. a normal cleartail will be the duller cleartail phenotype, and the second mutation or modifier genes could enhance the standard cleartail phenotype to a more brilliant phenotype. Maybe in such a circumstance it can be envisioned that the CleartailNSLino would also be enhanced.
Now a question: Do you know what the outcome is when two cleartails of different phenotypes are paired together? Would be very interesting and assist with solving the mystery.