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Ring0Neck wrote:

Johan S wrote:Hi Ben, yes, that's what I was referring to. It would be very nice to see two green series brothers, one carrying blue or turq, the other carrying emerald, side by side.

Johan,

Yes, that would be nice!

This green in above pic i believe is /turquoise first year breeding with him & i have another mature green/blue which in comparisson is a duller color, basic phenotype of wildtype.

My point: /Parblues possibly have visible markers on close inspection (diff. phenotype) when compared to wildtype, if so it will explain what/why JF saw a difference hence picking the /Emerald.

Has anyone done any comparisons of green/turquoise V green ?

We might run into problems due to normal variation, so that's why I suggested "keeping it in the family"

I wonder how much attention has really been paid to green vs green / turq or blue. I have a friend with a fairly certain green bird that doesn't split for blue or turq. 20+ chicks with a blue partner, and all green series. I'm going to have to go and take a close look at the bird.

... that's why I suggested "keeping it in the family"

How would you go about achieving this? & how long it'll that take someone to achieve this feat?
Imagine trying to breed green split for emerald and turq. resp. & to keep it in the family & confirm the correct splits

shortest way would be to have 3 proven matured birds:
a green not split for anything ( one sex)
a Hom Turq & Hom. Emerald (opposite sex of green)
and with all going well it could be done in 2 short years
even so only the green will be parent to all offspring.

** We might have to just bite the bullett & compare non related, keeping in mind and allowing for a certain degree of variation.


* Regarding Emerald being Parblue reminder:
A further fact that reinforces it is the fact that Aaron's /Emerald paired to a blue series bird (except parblue)
breeds: all greens offspring will be /blue &
all blue series offspring will be EmeraldBlues, which seems to be the case thus far for Aaron.

A benefit to having a /Emerald is the ease of IDing Emerald offspring right from the first breaking feather

Hi Lee
I have always hoped that that emerald might be a dominant structural gene, however my breeding results unfortunately point strongly to it being a parblue.
To my mind, the outstanding hope/evidence that a structural option was possible has always been the existence of your Emerald Green Alexandrines. IMO, if there is a dominant emerald gene in the alexandrines, it is likely that the same gene would appear in time in the IRN.
I had historically accepted that the gene in your alexandrines was the same as the emerald gene in my IRNs and, given your extensive knowledge and experience, I have historically simply accepted that to be the case. However, I am now starting to wonder if it might be a different gene.
As we know, the emerald gene in the IRN, when occurring in partnership with a blue gene, changes the psittacin signature from the bold yellow we see clearly in a lutino to a very pale cream colour over the entire plumage.
The alexandrines have an area of yellow pigmentation under the tail as I understand it (I don't keep them). It should provide a clear emerald indicator if the genes in the two species are the same. Can you please tell us what that yellow area looks like in both your Green and Blue Emerald alexandrines.
Kind regards
Mike

Hi Lee
Thanks very much for the response. I find it particularly difficult because I only have IRNs not alexandrines. Looking forward to a pic of the undertail area in the EmeraldBlue or Emerald Blue
Kind regards
Mike

Hi Lee
Can you please simply tell us what the different undertail yellow pigmentation looks like in a wildtype alexandrine, an Emerald green alexandrine and your Emerald Blue alexandrine.
Kind regards
Mike

Hi Lee
Thank you very much for taking the time to take and post photos. The difference between EmeraldBlue and green series undertails in your alexandrines looks exactly like my IRN cleartails, in other words pale cream vs bright yellow.
Sorry about one more question, but does the undertail of your Emerald Green look any different to the bright yellow green series birds?
Kind regards
Mike

Hi Lee
I have trouble getting them to face the correct way even when I catch them and put them in a photo cage. I sometimes sit there for ages trying to get the shot I need. Thanks again in advance.
Kind regards
mike

Hi Lee, Any chance that you have a green Alex that is confirmed to split Indigo ?

Peter, I've not heard of the appearance of turquoise or indigo alex, only blue and emerald. We'll have to wait patiently. Unless somebody has some good news.

this is Lee we talking about thats why i asked

prodigy wrote:this is Lee we talking about thats why i asked

very clear even from behind that its Emerald

Lee...can you refresh my memory on the ages of the above pictured Alex's?

these are last seasons young. born arnound about oct 2013

I am just breeding ringnecks for fun and are no profesional breeder at all but I can say the following
I have breed my first Emerald turquose female last year out of a Indigo and old terms Rainbow
She is totally diffrent like every one mentioned . the previous sesion I wast that lucky and there was just a blue male in the nest . but he is diffent to normal blue , he have a lot of cobalt blue at the back of his head and his tail seems to be much more flourecent . Going to breed him this year to a turquoise .
Also going to breed Two indigo`s together to see what the DF look like
Hope i did not confuse every one about this results .
Breeding ringneck for year just for the fun . only discovered about two years ago i have some intresting birds like indigo as part of my stock .
Seems reading thru this that ther might just be two diffrent kinds of blue , but they are close I dont know will see what happen in the nest this season

Thank you for a great forum

I have breed my first Emerald turquose female last year out of a Indigo and old terms Rainbow

Unfortunately you can not breed emerald from above pair.

It's like saying an English man married a French woman and they have 6 Chinese kids


We as humans sometimes see what we want to see, not what is really there, talking from experience & I learnt from it.

Ring0Neck wrote: It's like saying an English man married a French woman and they have 6 Chinese kids

Could be possible if both parents have gooks. The origin isn't always telling the exact appearance of a human.
The opposite way could fit even better: "It's like saying a Chinese man married a Japanese woman and they got 6 french kids."

The chance to find a Chinese among all European people is much more higher then finding a Frensh among all Chinese people.

Ring0Neck wrote:

I have breed my first Emerald turquose female last year out of a Indigo and old terms Rainbow

Unfortunately you can not breed emerald from above pair.

It's like saying an English man married a French woman and they have 6 Chinese kids


We as humans sometimes see what we want to see, not what is really there, talking from experience & I learnt from it.

Like i said that is what happened i can even send you the picture of the bird . so also like i have said I am breeding this birds for years for a pure intresst . May aim was never to breed scares mutations nor to impress any body . I have only found out what i have a year ago visiting Pieter and I was more than surprise . My aim is still the same I have them for my intress in them . You may say what you want but Ihave the bird to prove it . i am able to send you pictures of the bird at any time as well as the pictures of the indigo`s . no problem .

Indigo male

Emerald youngster
Will take new photo`s soon

Emerald younster , yellow /cream in tail
I will post new photo soon , she it big now

That looks like a normal turquoise youngster, allair. The green wash isn't evenly spread. Maybe a new photo will show it in a different light.

Hi allair,

Please don't feel like you have to prove anything to anyone. There are some people that aren't real great at being diplomatic in their responses here. That being said, I have a few par blue birds that also display the yellow/cream underside of tail and wing, but they are not emeralds. I was confused by it too. I'm not saying your bird is not an emerald, but that the yellow/cream can also occur in turquoise and indigo. Looking forward to any new pics you have

Melissa

Melissa thank you so much for your response , I agree with you and maybe some people dont like the results and fact that is what happen , and you are 100% right . But i want to say the following , I have done a lot of comparisons in terms of florecence lights , and all the information about the Emerald markings and a lot more and it match up I folow this forum from 2012 and made copies of tail feather a lot of other information . and with all respect Johan s I have normal
turquoise birds in stock and they are not even remotely looking the some , I dont think you know the diffrance at all and I am so sorry wasting your and all the experts in this forums time but but like they said breeding a chineese out of french parent are not possible so I rather just read the forum like before and just keep to what i do for many year enjoying the birds and the joy the I have doing that . I can see that the response is not of help but rather hostile . My indigo`s are maybe not even idigo so what do i know ?

i have read may opinions and may genitic calculations and so on that I must agree is most intresting and of good value and I have always enjoyed the forum , just did not think that people that claim to be experts , I am not , dont consider reality and if the spoted someting diffrent rather give positive and informative information before they make sarcastic and insulting statements , give every person a change tha make his statement and give the fact before you attack him and try to be sarcastic and rude . Thank you for a great forum and sorry to waste your valued time . end of the day if you dont have the birds in stock and did not bread them how do you know what you are talking about ?
Have a nice day and sorry but i am not English

I don't think i was rude ! not more so than your statement claiming you have an emerald bred from Indigo & turquoise.

Allair...do you happen to have a pic of the mom? You said she was a rainbow, which I believe is a turquoise pallid. Could she possibly be an indigo or emerald pallid? I'm interested to see the outcome of your photos.

allair wrote:Melissa thank you so much for your response , I agree with you and maybe some people dont like the results and fact that is what happen , and you are 100% right . But i want to say the following , I have done a lot of comparisons in terms of florecence lights , and all the information about the Emerald markings and a lot more and it match up I folow this forum from 2012 and made copies of tail feather a lot of other information . and with all respect Johan s I have normal
turquoise birds in stock and they are not even remotely looking the some , I dont think you know the diffrance at all and I am so sorry wasting your and all the experts in this forums time but but like they said breeding a chineese out of french parent are not possible so I rather just read the forum like before and just keep to what i do for many year enjoying the birds and the joy the I have doing that . I can see that the response is not of help but rather hostile . My indigo`s are maybe not even idigo so what do i know ?

i have read may opinions and may genitic calculations and so on that I must agree is most intresting and of good value and I have always enjoyed the forum , just did not think that people that claim to be experts , I am not , dont consider reality and if the spoted someting diffrent rather give positive and informative information before they make sarcastic and insulting statements , give every person a change tha make his statement and give the fact before you attack him and try to be sarcastic and rude . Thank you for a great forum and sorry to waste your valued time . end of the day if you dont have the birds in stock and did not bread them how do you know what you are talking about ?
Have a nice day and sorry but i am not English

Allair, I can assure you, I have seen about 15 real emeralds in the flesh at 6 different breeders across the country, much more so than most likely anybody in South Africa, bar Deon Smith. I've traveled more than 8000 km in the last two years alone to enable me that privilege. That's more than most people travel in their lifetime to go see birds. I'm not merely throwing ideas around based on pictures I have seen on the internet as you seem to suggest. I've done the hard miles and I've studied more of these birds than you, I bet. I was never rude in my response, and stand by what I said, being in that picture it doesn't look to have an even psittacin distribution, and I'd like to see more pictures. Please don't read anything else into my previous response. The other guys were having some fun, lighten up boet. They were merely expressing how remarkable it would be to breed spontaneously an emerald without that gene in the parents.

Since you seem to have done your homework, could you please share with us what UV light you used in your investigation? What/who was the source/manufacturer of the UV light, and was it a tube/LED?

Johan I found photo`s on this forum a while ago that look very similar to the bird . I will try and locate them again .
and yes the mother was a turquoise palid . I still have a photo but not the bird any more . the problem with this bird is that the color change so much when one thake photo`s that it is vey difficult to cupture the thrue colors
what i can say is that i have a Indigo female that i compare her to and the big diffrance is the greens on the head
the green is a lot more that the indigo as well as the tail this bird have clear yellow /cream tail markings and the indigo not
in appairance the bird is more brighter and the color chage a lot from angels , much more that the indigo`s
and she is a lot greener that the indigo`s and vastley diffrent to normal turquoise .
as far as i know one get turquise , indigo , and emerald and a bird with even less color on the wings than indigo
So the quistion is what is she then if not Indigo ?
I have put her with normal blue to see if she will breed this season , seems she is not intrested in him yet
so i will see when can i take photo`s
the best will be to do it with the indigo hen so one can see the diffrance but she is already going to the nest
so i dont want to do it right know .

but i also must admit I have never seen a Emerald only the pitcures . Also yes one thing that I must say she have some darker blue/green markings on her wing that may be seem as not smooth but patchy .
The Indigo male is the father

Allair, it sounds to me from the description that you have yourself a bird where the indigo gene from the father and the turquoise gene from the mother has matched up, and she might very well be a TurquoiseIndigo. I'll bet you good money you are going to look long and hard to find a proven one of those to compare with your bird. As a matter of fact, I've seen many more emeralds than for sure TurquoiseIndigo. In SA, most breeders don't care about the difference between the indigo and turquoise, and that's why it's going to be near impossible finding the TurquoiseIndigo. It makes me even more curious about some more recent photos, when you can please. I'd love to see the blend of green of turquoise and aqua-like colour of the indigo.

As for testing with a blue bird, that is perfect! If you breed only TurquoiseBlue and InidigoBlue, then your mystery is solved. The bird will also most likely change quite a lot towards her mid-summer moult.

PS: If I haven't said so before, welcome to the forum!

[quote="Johan S"]Allair, it sounds to me from the description that you have yourself a bird where the indigo gene from the father and the turquoise gene from the mother has matched up, and she might very well be a TurquoiseIndigo. I'll bet you good money you are going to look long and hard to find a proven one of those to compare with your bird.

Johan I think that you may be right , Seems she may just take the blue male . I will try to take some new photo`s soon
thank you so much for your input . maybe that is the reason her head looks much more emerald color than Indigo and the patches instead of smooth green on the wings .

quote="Johan S"]Allair, it sounds to me from the description that you have yourself a bird where the indigo gene from the father and the turquoise gene from the mother has matched up, and she might very well be a TurquoiseIndigo. I'll bet you good money you are going to look long and hard to find a proven one of those to compare with your bird.

Johan I think that you may be right , Seems she may just take the blue male . I will try to take some new photo`s soon
thank you so much for your input . maybe that is the reason her head looks much more emerald color than Indigo and the patches instead of smooth green on the wings .[/quote]

Under subject Emerald Deep trabots mention that he have patchy emerald younsters .
there is also some photo`s and one can see they are similar in patches for intresting sake

I think you are right but look at this and under topic and you will see why I think in the Emerald direction , the color is very similar , eyes are very similar and even Emerand younster photo`s are similar , then there is also refrance to the patches on the youg emeralds under subject Emerald Deep . Johan but than you and lets see if se go to nest what happen

It is very difficults to see the amount of green in the bird with this photo`s
Also she is very youg so she will only have her full color in about 2 -3 years if she is Indigo /tueqoise
So I think one will have much better idee next year about her color and how much it will change
The photo in the small cage when she was inside give one a better idee of the greens

Allair, does your baby look like this...







Blue for reference in front

Skyes_crew I have looked at your photo`s , the feet , the greens and also the blue in front that helped a lot
I have also notice the slightly darker greens just above the flight featers and I must say yes . look very much the same
The greens above beak are higly reflective , difficult to discripe but yes much more a reflective green that the blue of the indigo`s .

Yes I think it is very much the same , the more I look at it the more I see similar futures , flights , head , wings , nails , feet and so on , so kindly what mutation is the bird on the foto `s please before i make the wrong conclusion

And thak you for your intrest to help

Hi allair,

your's seem to be a 'saddle' type parblue/turquoise from the picture. Thanks for sharing.

Hi allair,

The bird in the pictures is a 4 month old IndigoTurquoise hen. I expect her color to change a lot over the next couple of moults. Keep us posted with pics of your bird as He/she matures

Mike,Willie ,,, my emerald green harlequin irn (the one i posted pics of sometime ago) produced what appears to be an emerald blue..it is the first of four chicks, and its pins are just pushing out. Whadya know? The green harlequin I stated to be an emerald green appears to be just that.
I will post pics of the young and the parents in a few days.
Mike have you got any update on your emerald turqs offspring?

Molossus2 wrote:Mike,Willie ,,, my emerald green harlequin irn (the one i posted pics of sometime ago) produced what appears to be an emerald blue..it is the first of four chicks, and its pins are just pushing out. Whadya know? The green harlequin I stated to be an emerald green appears to be just that.
I will post pics of the young and the parents in a few days.
Mike have you got any update on your emerald turqs offspring?

What kind of bird is the "emerald green harlequin" paired to? Blue series?

Madas the green emerald hen is paired to a blue normal cock.
4 chicks..still to feather.

Molossus2 wrote:Madas the green emerald hen is paired to a blue normal cock.
4 chicks..still to feather.

thx. If you got one plain blue chick then emerald could be dominant. If all 4 are emerald blue series then it is 99% a rec. mutation but with small visible markers in the green series.

Madas with my luck...all will be emerald...lol. and I knew you'd see it my way...more lol..
On the other side .. my averages with harlequin to violets are throwing lousy odds...go figure..

madas wrote:

Molossus2 wrote:Madas the green emerald hen is paired to a blue normal cock.
4 chicks..still to feather.

thx. If you got one plain blue chick then emerald could be dominant. If all 4 are emerald blue series then it is 99% a rec. mutation but with small visible markers in the green series.

Hi Lee & Madas,

If you can see Emerald in the green series bird, it would mean that Emerald is dominant, but Emerald being dominant is not enough to say that it is a mutation of a different locus than Blue (to say that it is not a parblue). Anyway this fact would highly point or suggest that Emerald is a different mutation (we can not identify splits to blue or parblue in green series birds).

To be sure that Emerald is a different mutation you should get a blue bird in the offspring after pairing your Green Emerald to a Blue, as Madas said. It would mean that the Green Emerald mother is also split Blue, and then, Emerald and Blue alleles would be together in a phenotypic green bird, proving that they are not alleles of the same gene.

This risk to be a major challenge if Emerald and Blue are highly linked. We need to get 20 offspring without Blue to say with a p<0.05 that the mother is not carrying Blue and Emerald in a non linked situation. If we accept a possible linkage rate of 3%, as for Cin-SL-Ino, we will need far higher numbers (around 0.05 x 0.03 = 0.0015 = 0.15% = 667 birds offspring without any Blue). But if we ever can get one single Blue in the offspring it would be enough to prove it.

Best regards

Recio

Recio wrote:

madas wrote:

Molossus2 wrote:Madas the green emerald hen is paired to a blue normal cock.
4 chicks..still to feather.

thx. If you got one plain blue chick then emerald could be dominant. If all 4 are emerald blue series then it is 99% a rec. mutation but with small visible markers in the green series.

Hi Lee & Madas,

If you can see Emerald in the green series bird, it would mean that Emerald is dominant, but Emerald being dominant is not enough to say that it is a mutation of a different locus than Blue (to say that it is not a parblue). Anyway this fact would highly point or suggest that Emerald is a different mutation (we can not identify splits to blue or parblue in green series birds).

To be sure that Emerald is a different mutation you should get a blue bird in the offspring after pairing your Green Emerald to a Blue, as Madas said. It would mean that the Green Emerald mother is also split Blue, and then, Emerald and Blue alleles would be together in a phenotypic green bird, proving that they are not alleles of the same gene.

This risk to be a major challenge if Emerald and Blue are highly linked. We need to get 20 offspring without Blue to say with a p<0.05 that the mother is not carrying Blue and Emerald in a non linked situation. If we accept a possible linkage rate of 3%, as for Cin-SL-Ino, we will need far higher numbers (around 0.05 x 0.03 = 0.0015 = 0.15% = 667 birds offspring without any Blue). But if we ever can get one single Blue in the offspring it would be enough to prove it.

Best regards

Recio

Yeap. Mother is for sure split blue because Lee already got an "emerald blue". All we need is a homozygous blue. Time will tell.
But emerald is really a very attractive mutation. Nice silky shine on the whole body then sitting in the shadow or shelter.

madas

heres pics of the hen...her mate is normal blue..she was bred out of an emerald grey to a dark green. that makes her /blue.

Chick 2 pin feather = green...aaarrrggghhhhhhhhhhhh

madas wrote: Yeap. Mother is for sure split blue because Lee already got an "emerald blue". All we need is a homozygous blue. Time will tell.
But emerald is really a very attractive mutation. Nice silky shine on the whole body then sitting in the shadow or shelter.

madas

Hi Madas,

Just a correction:

Yeap. Mother is for sure Emerald (or Split Emerald, depending on theories) because Lee already got an "emerald blue". All we need is a homozygous blue. Time will tell.
But emerald is really a very attractive mutation. Nice silky shine on the whole body then sitting in the shadow or shelter.

I agree. Best regards.

Recio

Recio ,, Madas et al... of the 2 pairs of alex :
pr 1 emerald green /blue - Albino
pr 2 Emerald green/blue - green/blue
I have been breeding emerald blues , emerald greens and greens. I lost 3 red eyed offspring and perhaps 6 other chicks
D I S due to bad incubator controls...
this season I have a chick pinning looks emerald blue or blue..
No blue chicks on perch for the previous 3 seasons..
Seems to share in irns results this far...proving perhaps the are similar mutations if not the same ..
aaaarrrrgggghhhhh. come on blues...just one ...please...

Molossus2 wrote:Recio ,, Madas et al... of the 2 pairs of alex :
pr 1 emerald green /blue - Albino
pr 2 Emerald green/blue - green/blue
I have been breeding emerald blues , emerald greens and greens. I lost 3 red eyed offspring and perhaps 6 other chicks
D I S due to bad incubator controls...
this season I have a chick pinning looks emerald blue or blue..
No blue chicks on perch for the previous 3 seasons..
Seems to share in irns results this far...proving perhaps the are similar mutations if not the same ..
aaaarrrrgggghhhhh. come on blues...just one ...please...

Hm, very sad the lost of chicks. What kind of incubator do you use? The brinsea products seem to do a right job.

madas

grumbach..calibrated off by -2.5 deg.