Sapphires progress

[InTheAir]

Thanks, I guess I'll keep playing that way unless it seems to be having a detrimental effect on her behaviour towards me.

Sapphire says:
Today I discovered a new thing to eat!


It doesn't break very easily though


So I ate the tea-towel instead!

[Skyes_crew]

I love your bird towel!!!!

[InTheAir]

I thought about writing ringneck on it below her foot

[MissK]

Cute photos.

Regarding aggressive play, is it something you can direct? I'm thinking across species again. All the wisdom when I started keeping dogs said do not play aggressive games, no tug of war, no teasing, don't take their food. However, we do all of those things, and I'm sure a good many dog keepers do, with no problems at all. In fact, I almost never see them happier than during a game of "I've got your bone - here it is, now it's over here, now it's over there, catch it, catch it", with never a hint of human directed aggression or insurrection.

I cannot, myself, think of a way to incorporate IRN aggressiveness into play, and I never want to encourage a thing like that in Rocky. He is not really an aggressively minded bird. He plays nice, and when he isn't playing nice, he isn't kidding. No longer playing and not amused, kind of like his Mama, However, if you can think outside this box, and you want to support Sapphire's personality, perhaps you can explore it. You are a very clever and intuitive trainer. I'd love to hear how it goes.

[InTheAir]

I'll try to video her next time she is in that kind of mood, you guys can give me your opinion on what is going on. She will growl and pounce on the toy I'm offering. If you drag the toy along a flat surface she will chase it and wrestle it off you, while growling away.
She was going mental and growling at her big toy this morning. She wanted to play training games with me after that and tunnel in my hand, all signs of her previous mood was gone.
She's a funny little thing.

[AJPeter]

Sorry to butt in on your thread but l wanted to point out that you can buy 20 camels in a packet in some shops

[MissK]

I don't want *those* Camels, but I would like to congratulate InTheAir on four pages here........ Some of them are even about her bird!

[InTheAir]

Thanks missk! I probably could have filled up the lot by myself!

Today's adventure in losing my birds was Sapphire got locked in the pantry for about 15 minutes. I only noticed when Nila had been calling Hello into her favourite toy for ages and she hadn't come over to chase him away. It took Dave and I a few minutes to even consider looking in the pantry. She was very quiet and had a "I've just been busted" look on her face. She probably thought she was in heaven!

[MissK]

Uh-huh. What is the state of the biscuits?!!!

Once upon a time I accidentally shut my tiny dog in between the storm door and the front door. A few minutes later I heard muffled barking. I'm going to blame that one on his hairy little butt, for trying to run outside alone.

[Skyes_crew]

I think the one busted is you Claire...they've found your secret stash of biscuits it was a covert operation...Nila sent the innocent one in

Here's a semi-off topic...whatever happened to the food contest???

[InTheAir]

I think the one busted is you Claire...they've found your secret stash of biscuits it was a covert operation...Nila sent the innocent one in

Here's a semi-off topic...whatever happened to the food contest???

Hahahaha that's so true! Lucky the biscuits are in a bird proof container!

Ummm the cooking thing. .. opps! Nila stopped being a fussy little bugger so my motivation went away. I have almost run out of cooked food for them so I will try to find some motivation soon. That painting looks great in our house though

[InTheAir]

Sapphire and Nila went to visit Janey and Charlie today. Sapphire ignored all the other birds and played in charlie's toy basket the whole time. Nila followed Charlie around, Charlie tried to escape from Nila and Janey was not impressed with anyone.
Sapphire stepped up on Ellie and Mr Ellie to eat treats and was very good!
Nila really likes Mr Ellie, he was not happy that Mr Ellie wanted to go in another room and do some work. Mr Ellie was meant to stay where he was and give Nila biscuits. Nila told me he could train Mr Ellie if he had a bit more time to work on him.

[InTheAir]

Here's a video of her playing rough. She initiates it by pushing under my fingers and nibbling. She doesn't hurt me and she doesn't bite down at all. She did run off and bite the laptop quite hard though.
What do you think?
http://youtu.be/94WKaPkbb5c

[MissK]

Well, I don't know anything, but it just looks like play to me. Parts of it reminded me of beak wrestling. When you hold the little object, what is that, some wood? It looked clearly to me like her using the toy you offered. I didn't see any warning signs, except possibly where she put her foot on you and it looked like she might be getting leverage for a stronger beaking. I thought it was nice, very interactive. Who doesn't love it when their pet stuffs it's head in their hand?

[InTheAir]

It's definitely all in fun, but I am not used to that kind of play!
She climbs on my fingers and growls as she beaks them. She was growling on that video but the sound didn't come out properly.

[ellieelectrons]

Janey has always liked to go in and under things too.

I agree that she's just playing and I'm guessing that how you respond to the bites in play will dictate to her how she chooses to use them in the future? That may be where I went wrong with Janey? This could be where the wisdom of the adage of not reacting to a bit comes from?

Ellie.

[InTheAir]

Hmm. .. I'm not sold on not reacting to a bite, I don't think a huge reaction is a good idea either. I just can't see how not withdrawing ones hand serves any useful purpose in the parrots social structure?
Sapphire was nibbling Nilas toe the other day and when she nibbled a bit harder he squarked and flew away. Sapphire did the same when Janey bit her tail (that was an aggressive bite though). I haven't noticed an increase of aggression in either instance.

I have quietly told her when it hurts and removed my hand. She hasn't beaked me hard in months. Her attention span is pretty short, so she just starts playing with something else and forgets about me immediately. She hasn't chased after the hand in those few instances.

I'd like to know the "right" way of reacting. Have you ever talked to the vet about biting?

What did you do with Janey when she was a young, beaky thing?

I read a nice broken finger story on another forum, the result of not reacting to a macaw bite That's not something I'd emulate, even with a tiny ringneck beak!

[Skyes_crew]

For me...there are times I react and others I don't. But I always use the word no. Hamlet likes to preen my eyebrows...he's weird...I know lol. But sometimes he gets nippy. I touch the top of his beak and say no. Cyrano when he gets sleepy gets touchy...he beaks me...sometimes it hurts. But if I tell him no, he stops. But I've also had a wild ringneck bite my finger...if I don't react or react, the bite is still the same...it HURTS!!! My friend lori has a B&G macaw that got too nippy with her and grabbed her nose. He sliced the tip of her nose clear open. How do you not react to that!!! Is it possible that by not reacting it enforces the biting somehow? Like it's giving permission for the bird to behave that way?? But then again by reacting is it eliciting a response that the bird wants and so reinforces the behavior that way? Or is it possible that each bird is a case by case scenario in which if we can read our birds body language we can tell which way to lean?

[ellieelectrons]

Hmm. .. I'm not sold on not reacting to a bite,

No, I'm not either. However, I'm not sure what the "right" way to deal with it is. My current thinking is that it depends on the cause of/the event leading up to the biting, which is why I liked this article of Barbara's http://goodbirdinc.blogspot.com.au/2012 ... -bite.html.

Sometimes not reacting (if you can) may be the way to go. I'm inclined to think that might be the way to go with exploratory biting in young birds unless it gets too hard.

However I believe biting caused by say nesting behaviours (for example, in my house opening drawers or cupboards during nesting season can cause Janey to fly at me and bite me) is best avoided by either (1) the human avoiding the behaviour that produces the reaction or (2) proactively using positive reinforcement train to help the bird accept the human behaviour. (2) is a long term strategy and it may work, but I don't know if it would when strong birdy hormones are at play.

What did you do with Janey when she was a young, beaky thing?

I can't really remember. What I do know is that I didn't know a lot about birds back then. I was extremely bite averse, even to a little bite. I'd never had a puppy to understand the concept of an animal "mouthing"... so I probably did it all wrong <sigh>. The types of bites I remember Janey issuing back then though were always quite sudden, I didn't expect them, so I didn't necessarily react well. I remember sitting on the verandah on the couch with her on my lap. I was really relaxed, she'd been sitting there happily for quite a while. I hadn't moved a muscle in the longest time and all of a sudden she decided to run at my hand and bite my finger. I guess she was bored but it really took me by surprise.

Sorry I can't remember more.

Ellie.

[InTheAir]

That article was what sold Barbara whatshernames training style to me. I think it's great.
It's interesting. Both our birds will bite if provoked, but they give heaps of other warnings and don't actually bite hard, just warnings. They have never bitten out of the blue.
I still haven't worked out if it's due to luck or how we handle them.
I was just reading up about training and behaviour for my course, but it's all centred around dogs still, some of the training things still apply.

Btw check out sapphs nest box
http://www.indianringneck.com/forum/vie ... =1&t=18673 I think counter conditioning is well worth trying with Janey. I should probably get a head start and stay making positive associations with me approaching sapphires pretend nest sites too.

[ellieelectrons]

That's a cute nest site!

Ellie.

[InTheAir]

For some reason I didn't see Melissas post! Sorry! I do think you have some very relevant points there! Yes, the whole demeanor of the bird should influence your handling of the situation. Beaking hard, but in a non aggressive manner does appear to be self rewarding. Doodlebugs recent thread highlights that well, ignoring that kind of beaking would not change the behaviour. Sapphires breeder has a whole flight of birds that beak like that and letting them chew an arm to shreds doesn't alter their interest in beaking. They need to learn a more appropriate way to interact. Mine gave up beaking hard after trying it a couple times, so I haven't had an issue with that. Sapphire does pounce on my finger when we play sometimes, but she is so gentle with her beak when she grabs me so it's a non issue.

Obviously, if I have pushed into the birds space I could expect aggression. I don't often get it because of the other training strategies I employ anyway. In the case of receiving aggression for invading personal space without permission, I have found backing off and asking permission has been effective. If I get their attention first they are usually happy to do whatever I suggest.
They haven't ever nipped me in a warning of external factors, they vocalise instead and fly off. Maybe because they are young and not bonded to me...

From what I've seen of interactions between ringnecks, biting at another bird results in a bluffing war or the victim retreating. I haven't seen one sit there ignoring it.
Sapphire and Nila have started the bluffing war over the shower, Sapphire always wins, apart from one when she fell off the screen
Janey has won every bluffing war over Sapphire. Charlie has never stood up to Nila. Nila never stands up to Janey. Charlie mostly bosses Janey.. I don't quite understand what is going on there, but Janey and Sapphire are never having a play date when they are in breeding mode! The only wars I've seen have been Nila and Sapphire or Janey and Sapphire. The other interactions result in instant flight from the non aggressive party. ..

There must be a lesson on how to handle aggression in all that?

[MissK]

Was doing some Googling, fund mention of a Budgie playing semi aggressive hand games. It's low on the page.
https://companionparrotonline.com/Bird_ ... uesti.html

[InTheAir]

Was doing some Googling, fund mention of a Budgie playing semi aggressive hand games. It's low on the page.
https://companionparrotonline.com/Bird_ ... uesti.html

You and your budgies!
I'd like to see budgie wrestling though. How cute would that be?!

[MissK]

Probably almost as cute as watching Rocky try to tongue-kiss Riff Raff. I honestly could not really interpret their actions today.

[InTheAir]

Probably almost as cute as watching Rocky try to tongue-kiss Riff Raff. I honestly could not really interpret their actions today.

That sounds adorable! But a little wrong. ..

Just incase anyone thought I was an exceptional trick trainer, I can confirm that it is just that Nila is a genius! I have had a few sessions of teaching Sapphire to pick up the ring and put it in the bucket. She is vaguely starting to understand the game now. I think it took Nila less than 5 minutes to learn.
To tell the truth, I'm not sure I have coupled the the bridge with the reward properly for Sapphire. I am making an effort to tighten that up now and we seem to have made progress. She still looks slightly mystified on why she keeps getting treats for dropping the ring, she thought I wanted her to throw it for a while and was flinging it across the table! Sometimes it would land in the dish, so I ended up reinforcing the throw occasionally and no connection to the object and dish was made
It's still amusing, even when we are failing completely though.

[ellieelectrons]

You won't know if you're a super coach or not until you've done a few tricks with her. You've got to get the communication going. The more she learns, the easier you'll find it to communicate. I have a feeling you're still a super coach!

Ellie.

[InTheAir]

Hahaha she does a few tricks, she just doesn't have the same way of thinking as Nila. It's the same with foraging, she bashes the toys until something comes out, he considers them and solves them in his head before he acts. Nila has an extra big brain in his tiny little head

[InTheAir]

She's got it! http://youtu.be/aPmh-vdAPLc
My bird makes me laugh so much

[MissK]

She's doing great! Will she learn blue, too?
(I bet she will!)

[ellieelectrons]

Well done Claire. Was this before mine arrived?

Ellie.

[InTheAir]

Ellie, Yep. You're right about basketball being dead easy. Sapphire can do it now. I videoed the whole thing 14 minutes over 3 sessions, with Nila "helping". That includes the 5 minutes of nothing when I walked off to get treats and Sapphire eating the hoop, Nila flying away with the ball when sapphire chased him etc. I think it was more like 5 minutes over 3 sessions, if I cut out the distractions.

I tried to convince Janey to come play with the teach box, but my guys were swarming like flies. Sapphire perched on it and was pulling the counters out as Nila dropped them in. Janey took one look at them and pretended she was busy napping!

Nila and Sapphire are starting to work as a team to break into Janey and Charlies treat container and to clean the kitchen bench. Nila also is grooming her head when they are courting. ..

[ellieelectrons]

Just to clarify for everyone else, I said basketball isn't hard to teach once the bird has the concept of the retrieve down. It is difficult before that point. Although I'm sure it took both my guys longer than 15 mins despite already being able to retrieve. ;) I think it's time you take the mantle of super trainer Claire. Well done.

Ellie.

[InTheAir]

Thanks for correcting that, Ellie. Though I still think training success says more about ringneck intellect than trainer prowess. And she doesn't like to be outdone by Nila.

Sapphire has been going to work with Dave and Nila this week. We have a big note on her cage saying that she is shy, so please admire her from a distance. We considered making a sign for Nilas cage "I'm not shy, talk to me!" but he seems to do well enough at luring people over on his own.
She's fine with all the workshop noises and stuff, but stops playing with her toys and looks a bit worried when customers walk too close. We have been giving her a sunflower seed whenever strangers are nearby.
Nila was more jumpy than her today as there was a big truck driving up and down the road. He's fine with petrol cars revving like blazes, but is still petrified of loud diesels! Luckily Sapphire couldn't work out why he was dithering around and stayed calm. He forgot he was worried when I gave him some a passion fruit Bribery overcomes all fears!

[Doodlebug]

Excellent work with Sapphire, She picks up things nice and quick

On the subject of beaking/aggressive play, I watched the video and I agree with MissK, she looks as though she is playing for the most part, but could easily spill over into the excitement overload thing and start becoming harder and more daring. I have been training Dudes to drop a pine cone in the pot now instead of the ball, he got way too aggressive with it and would fling and lunge and chase instead of focusing on what was really being asked of him so I got a bunch of small pine cones which don't roll away so quickly lol and keeps his attention on the trick. Although he is quite slow at picking things up, he loves training, and will fly to the table and go straight to the edge and try craning his cocky little head to see underneath where I keep all the stuff. Its so comical to watch him crane, then look at me, then crane, as if to say 'Hurry up woman, I'm ready!'

[InTheAir]

Hey Loo. Nice to see yoo. How's dudes going?
I just pretend Sapphire is a miniture macaw, she doesn't seem fully irn! When she's playing with a foot toy she likes to hold my hand with one foot too, usually my writing hand so I'm immobilised and have to pay attention to her.

Now that she's got the hang of doing tricks, she does seem quite bright. It's really hard to train birds now, as both want to be involved and Sapphire doesn't share props. If I put one in it's cage, it will distract me by bouncing up and down or looking sorry for itself!

[Doodlebug]

Hi Claire, Dudes is doing good thanks, everything seems to take painfully slow but I guess that's the nature of some of our little beasts. I do get disheartened at times but always aware to go at his pace, he just is still going for my hands and fingers so it can be difficult to train at times but I just say no and pull my hand away-whether that's bad or good or not is another matter.

Sounds like you have a pair of toddlers there! I bet you feel like putting one or both on the naughty perch sometimes

[InTheAir]

Have you had any improvements? Did you implement any of the strategies, like rewarding and removing him quickly before he gets interested in eating flesh?
It's kind of funny that I didn't particularly want an over friendly bird and Sapphire has turned out quite more hands on than I intended, whereas you got the opposite! I really wanted a friend for Nila.
They are more like teenagers at the moment! They keep courting and Nila has not got the moves down. He keeps reading the signals wrong! She got bored and tucked her head under her wing to nap today and Nila came over and tried to French kiss her while her beak was under her wing. It went down slightly better than I expected. She only growled at him