Newbie - need crash course on genetics

[MattAZ]

You people are fucking sad. I happened on this site based on my love of my pet IRA thinking it might be a resource of some use, only to find a bunch of clinical breeder freaks more interested in building the perfect beast. WTF? Don't you have something else you can try to manufacture? Obviously you have no love for these animals. Go play with your mate's sperm or eggs or whatever (grand assumption you've managed one). Make breakfast with their ****, but stop fucking with what's left of Earth's creatures. They're not here to convert into dollars.

[Recio]

Hi Todd;

Do you know the sex of the lutino baby? If it was a male the mutation should be NSL-ino. If it was a female it can be either SL-ino or NSL-ino.

There is another possibility to explain the results: the baby was not lutino but creamino, since one of the parents was turquoise. There are creaminos looking almost like lutinos because they keep a lot of psitacine, and there are only some white feathers on wings and tails, which are not always easy to see. Could you see this baby by yourself?

Greetings

Recio

[dog_glenn123]

Hi mattAZ

Word of advise im guessing that you will be punted from this site very soon so i will make this snappy.
They are mutations nobody injects the birds or pulls DNA back out and puts it back in.
Breeders just put different coloured birds together to see what happens and occationally a mutation happens, Just like in humans you fool, i hope you dont breed, one of you seems to be enough. And stop swaring kids and wemon read this forum. Wake up to yourself!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[madas]

Hi Todd;

Do you know the sex of the lutino baby? If it was a male the mutation should be NSL-ino. If it was a female it can be either SL-ino or NSL-ino.

There is another possibility to explain the results: the baby was not lutino but creamino, since one of the parents was turquoise. There are creaminos looking almost like lutinos because they keep a lot of psitacine, and there are only some white feathers on wings and tails, which are not always easy to see. Could you see this baby by yourself?

Greetings

Recio

Hi Recio,

this is/may be the only correct explanation.

here is a picture of a creme ino (owner was rick_s0910) which looks nearly the same like a lutino:



So if this bird is paired back to a blue bird you should only get blue and turquoise birds split for NSLino.
If paired back to one of its parents (depends on sex of the bird) you should get 50% cleartails (in both cases).

So can you get/post a picture of the bird?

Thx.

madas

[Coastal-Birds]

Hi
Sex is unknown as the bird is now dead.
It was pure yellow no white at all in it.

The problem is here people with whwt,s don.t want to know about what is happening with NSL ino.I have showed people this discussion and they put it aside.
Also if someone did produce a white or yellow they tell no one and then sell the bird off cheap and never let anyone know that there whwt birds produced it as all think then they are split to ino.
The problem is still how can two blue birds get a yellow?
I except that a creamino can happen but this bird was pure like a lutino.

[madas]

Hi
Sex is unknown as the bird is now dead.
It was pure yellow no white at all in it.

The problem is here people with whwt,s don.t want to know about what is happening with NSL ino.I have showed people this discussion and they put it aside.
Also if someone did produce a white or yellow they tell no one and then sell the bird off cheap and never let anyone know that there whwt birds produced it as all think then they are split to ino.
The problem is still how can two blue birds get a yellow?
I except that a creamino can happen but this bird was pure like a lutino.

So i guess you have seen the bird by your self, right?
So what is the reason for the death of this bird?

btw: if the bird was really true yellow (lutino) then i can't explain this bird. in my understanding if lutino (it doesn't metter SL or NSL) is combined with blue you will get albinos (eg. SL Albinos or NSL Albino).
I know from cleartail breeders that NSL Albino (cremeino too) were produced by cleartails. So the NSL Lutino should interact with blue like the SL lutino does.

But now i am confused too.

greetings.

[Coastal-Birds]

Well the bird was yellow as.
As i said no one will admit to ever breeding one here.They are sold off or knocked on the head so no one ever seems it.
I can buy the pair but short of money.Im seeing about getting the cock as i can get some daughters from the hen,so if indeed they are both caring NSLino i should be able to produce one,but there is 3 hens to pick from so i dont know what to do there.

[madas]

Well the bird was yellow as.
As i said no one will admit to ever breeding one here.They are sold off or knocked on the head so no one ever seems it.
I can buy the pair but short of money.Im seeing about getting the cock as i can get some daughters from the hen,so if indeed they are both caring NSLino i should be able to produce one,but there is 3 hens to pick from so i dont know what to do there.

assuming the yellow offspring was a NSLino (and not a hen) then both parents must be cleartail NSLino.
So if all the 3 hen are visuell cleartails your chance is 2 : 1 to pickup a bird (youngster hen) which is carring the NSLino gen.

1.0 blue cleartail NSLino x 0.1 turquoise(parblue)Blue cleartail NSLino
% from all 1.0
25.0% 1.0 blue cleartail NSLino
12.5% 1.0 blue cleartail
12.5% 1.0 blue NSLino (NSL Albino)
25.0% 1.0 turquoise(parblue)Blue cleartail NSLino
12.5% 1.0 turquoise(parblue)Blue cleartail
12.5% 1.0 turquoise(parblue)Blue NSLino (NSL Creme Ino)
% from all 0.1
25.0% 0.1 blue cleartail NSLino
12.5% 0.1 blue cleartail
12.5% 0.1 blue NSLino
25.0% 0.1 turquoise(parblue)Blue cleartail NSLino
12.5% 0.1 turquoise(parblue)Blue cleartail
12.5% 0.1 turquoise(parblue)Blue NSLino

But another thougt: How will a bird look which is carring the SL and the NSLino gen visuell expressed? And what happens if this is combined with blue (blue NSLino Ino)? will the blue gen still bring up an albino?

So is it possible that the cock is a cleartail NSLino / ino bird? to check this he should be paired to a normal green hen which is 100% not split for any other mutation (i know it's hard get, so only split blue is ok). this pair should not produce any lutino or albino offspring (has to prove for at least three seasons). but if there is any lutino or albino offspring the cock is split for SL Lutino. And may be this (combined with NSLino) can explain the dead lutino child.

greetings.

[Recio]

But another thougt: How will a bird look which is carring the SL and the NSLino gen visuell expressed? And what happens if this is combined with blue (blue NSLino Ino)? will the blue gen still bring up an albino?

Hi Madas;
First of all I really like your "thougts". There after something about the basis of SL and NSLino mutations:

1. In NSL ino mutations there is not any synthesis of melanin, and so the matrixes where melanin should be deposited are empty of any pigment. However these empty matrixes are deposited into the feather. There is not any melanin synthesis because the mutation affects the production of a first step enzyme in melanin synthesis: the tyrosinase. So this mutation is called "tyrosinase negative" (TYR-neg).

2. In SL ino mutations the tyrosinase activity is not reduced (it is even higher than normal), and with the electron microscope we can still see some melanin granules. The problem is that the matrixes where melanin should be deposited are deformed and underdeveloped. Since the tyrosinase activity is always present this mutation is called "tyrosinase positif" (TYR-pos).

If you put both mutations in the same bird you will get an even more pure lutino or albino bird.

The question is: what happens when a pallid mutation (allele of SLino or incomplete SLino mutation) and a bronze fallow mutation (allele of NSLino or incomplete NSLino mutation) are expressed at the same time? In pallids the matrixes are not very deformed and in bronze fallow there is still some melanin synthesis. So the expresion of melanin should be enhanced respective to simple pallids or simple bronze fallows birds. Has anyone seen this bird?

We could also think in the same way if considering cleartail mutation as an allele of NSLino: what would be the phenotypic result of pallid and cleartail expressed in the same bird? Since both mutations seem similar the first idea is that the expression of both of them would produce an intermediate bird ... but when looking at the mechanism of each mutation we could expect a phenotypic appearence with far more melanin than anyone of the mutations of origin, and a greater contrast of colours. Each partial mutation of origin will contribute by "adding" more matrixes or more melanin and thus melanin depending colouring (blue, grey, black, ...) would be enhanced ... but to my knowledge no one has tried to combine these mutations.

So is it possible that the cock is a cleartail NSLino / ino bird? to check this he should be paired to a normal green hen which is 100% not split for any other mutation (i know it's hard get, so only split blue is ok). this pair should not produce any lutino or albino offspring (has to prove for at least three seasons). but if there is any lutino or albino offspring the cock is split for SL Lutino. And may be this (combined with NSLino) can explain the dead lutino child.

If it was a real lutino nothing can explain it, since any offspring from blue parents should have been blue or white, but never lutino.

Greetings

Recio

[Recio]

Hi again,
I am reading the post and I see that it is not clear at all. I am going to try to develop:

What happens when a pallid mutation (allele of SLino or incomplete SLino mutation or partial TYR neg) and a bronze fallow mutation (allele of NSLino or incomplete NSLino mutation or partial TYR pos) are expressed at the same time?

In pallids there must be a partial alteration of the matrixes (less than in SLino) with an intact metabolic pathway to produce melanin. If the higher activation of tyrosinase present in NSLino birds is a primary fact, and that it is also present in its allelic forms (bronze fallow), then the production of melanin should be increased in birds displaying both mutations, and it would lead to a more coloured bird.
In the oposite: if the higher activation of tyrosinase present in NSLino birds is a result of decreased feedback control by the final product of the metabolic pathway (melanin), then we should expect a reduction in the production of melanin when "adding" pallid (partially altered matrixes) with bronzefallow (decreased melanin synthesis), thus leading to a lighther coloured bird than pallid or bronze fallow, probably looking similar to pallidino.

The same can be considered about pallid with cleartail, if accepting that cleartail is an allele of NSLino, just like bronze fallow.

Let me know what you think.

Greetings

Recio

[madas]

Hi costal-bird and Recio,

i have searched all my mails because your problem (having a lutino offspring from to homozygot blue bird) was not really new to me. So finally i found this special mail.

So here is what the south african breeder wrote to me:

...
"The NSL cock that I first bred, was bred out of a normal blue cleartail cock with a dark neckring. I must say that the blue in this male is a slightly pailer blue than the normal (for the trained eye). The hen is a normal cobalt cleartail. I bred this NSL cock to a blue cleartail hen and the offspring were two blue cleartails (one hen and one cock). Out of this original parents I also bred albino males and females."
...

So whats your opinion? How is it possible to breed lutinos and albinos from two homozygot blue birds?

Thx.

[Recio]

Hi Madas;

If I understand well your friend got albino and lutino birds from a pair of blue cleartails birds. Let's go for brainstorming:

1. The albino birds can be explained if they are NSL-ino blue birds and we accept that cleartail is a dominant allele of NSL-ino (heteroallelic NSLino-cleartail look like homoallelic cleartail), and that both parents are blue heteroallelic NSLino-cleartail.

2. The lutino cock is impossible to explain with actual knowledge, excepting if :

2.1. In fact it is a creamino, and then, maybe, the turquoise gen came from the father, which was a bit lighter than usually.

2.2. Another even more improbable possibility is that the there is a back mutation on the mutated blue genes from the gamets of one of the parents, and so spermatozoids or oocytes did not carry the blue mutation, resulting in NSLino split blue chick. If it was the case we could expect this to happen in normal blue parents producing green chicks but I have never heard of such a thing.

2.3. Even more difficult but not impossible: at the time of meiosis one gamet could keep both cromosomes carrying the blue mutated gen (n+1 cromosomes), and another gamet will lack this cromosome (n-1). It is well known that in the same species of birds we can find different cromosomic compositions, and this helps to speciation. The spermatozoids carrying n-1 cromosome have lost the blue mutated gen and when they fertilize normal blue ovocytes the embryos that they will produce will be only split blue, allowing the NSLino to be expressed as a lutino bird.

These are just some hypothesis to try to explain these unusual results.

Greetings

Recio