Opaline comparison

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madas
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Opaline comparison

Post by madas »

Some main flight feathers of opaline birds. Left to right: opaline green, 2x opaline violet(ef)green, opaline violet(df)green, opaline dark(df) green, opaline violet(ef)blue, opaline dark(df) blue, opaline dark(df) violet(ef) blue.

Full sunlight:

Image

highres:

http://www.fotos-hochladen.net/uploads/ ... 3sawkd.jpg


shadow:

Image

http://www.fotos-hochladen.net/uploads/ ... b24l6m.jpg

madas
Ring0Neck
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Re: Opaline comparison

Post by Ring0Neck »

Nicely done Madas!

Can you showcase the birds as well?
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madas
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Re: Opaline comparison

Post by madas »

Ring0Neck wrote:Nicely done Madas!

Can you showcase the birds as well?
Will take some months. Birds still breeding and some start moulting. So at least 2-3 months to go before they are ready for a photo shooting. :(

madas
Recio
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Re: Opaline comparison

Post by Recio »

Hi Madas,

Congratulations for the pics.
It would be great if you could add in the same pic some feathers from Blue Opaline. Are all those feathers from SF Opaline birds (hemizygous females)? Any difference respective to DF Opalines (homozygous males)?. It seems that the "width" of the refringent feather pattern is lower when structural mutations are present but there is only one example of Green Opaline to compare. Could you confirm?

Regards

Recio

*Post re-edited following Ben advice :)
Ring0Neck
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Re: Opaline comparison

Post by Ring0Neck »

Recio,

I would still not use DF as that would confuse many, alhtough we know that you're refering to Homoz. Opaline (visual male)
using DF would make believe all offspring is 100% opaline as it is true for a Dominant mutation only which Opaline is not.
We should use DF only for Dominant mutations, not so much about being right or wrong.
general consensus out there is a DF will have 100% offspring of that mutation even when not paired to a bird carrying same mutation.
Last edited by Ring0Neck on Wed May 28, 2014 11:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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bennjamin
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Re: Opaline comparison

Post by bennjamin »

I agree with ringneck on opaline and the use of SF and DF for a sex linked mutation, it will cause confusion.
madas
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Re: Opaline comparison

Post by madas »

Recio wrote: It seems that the "width" of the refringent feather pattern is lower when structural mutations are present but there is only one example of Green Opaline to compare. Could you confirm?
Hi Recio,

well spotted. :D But it's only true for males as i noticed in my aviaries. :(
The opaline violet(sf) blue, opaline dark(df) green /blue and opaline dark(df) blue are females and well marked regarding all opaline patterns. Rest are males. Wing stripe seems stable from moult to moult.
Unfortunately this isn't true for my males. After their first big moult the wing pattern look very nice but then from moult to moult it was getting decreased in small steps. :(
However, I have the same presumption as you. It has to do with the structural mutations (except grey) which gets darker from moult to moult until adult moult. But why are only the males affected by this behavior?
Time will tell. Lets see how they look after next moult.

Regarding grey: what i have noticed is that most opaline which carry the grey gen look extra ordinary good. Why???

madas
madas
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Re: Opaline comparison

Post by madas »

Recio wrote: add Blue Opaline
Have no opaline blue birds.
Recio
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Re: Opaline comparison

Post by Recio »

madas wrote:
Recio wrote: It seems that the "width" of the refringent feather pattern is lower when structural mutations are present but there is only one example of Green Opaline to compare. Could you confirm?
Hi Recio,

well spotted. :D But it's only true for males as i noticed in my aviaries. :(
The opaline violet(sf) blue, opaline dark(df) green /blue and opaline dark(df) blue are females and well marked regarding all opaline patterns. Rest are males. Wing stripe seems stable from moult to moult.
Unfortunately this isn't true for my males. After their first big moult the wing pattern look very nice but then from moult to moult it was getting decreased in small steps. :(
However, I have the same presumption as you. It has to do with the structural mutations (except grey) which gets darker from moult to moult until adult moult. But why are only the males affected by this behavior?
Time will tell. Lets see how they look after next moult.

Regarding grey: what i have noticed is that most opaline which carry the grey gen look extra ordinary good. Why???

madas
Hi Madas,

Opaline is considered as a mutation producing a "redistribution" of pigment such that it acts on final melanin content (increased in the head and black ring) as well as on psittacin (increased) as we all know. It is unlike to think that the same mutation can directly act on the synthesis of both pigments at the same time since both metabolic pathways are independent. The more likely possibility to act on both pigmentary systems is by acting at the structural level, inducing a change in the system to transfer the pigment or at the deposition level of the pigment on the feather structure. Your results, suggesting an interaction between Opaline and structural mutations, also point to Opaline as a structural mutation. It could explain the different quality in opaline markings dependent on the structural mutation considered, and whether it acts on the spongy zone and/or the cortex.
Moreover: This "redistribution" of pigment induced by Opaline is said to be region specific, so that it is not the same in every part of the body. This fact correlates well with the different feather structure we can find in the different parts of the body.

The difference between opaline males (homozygous) and females (hemizygous) in the interaction with structural mutations, could depend on an incomplete haploinsufficiency type of inheritance, so that, the expression in birds owing two opaline genes (males) would not be the same than in birds with just one opaline gene (females). Hormonal factors could also play a role as has been suggested in the past.

Regards

Recio
bennjamin
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Re: Opaline comparison

Post by bennjamin »

That is very interesting recio, would this interaction you suggest, could it have a tell tale effect on cocks that are split to opaline ?
Recio
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Re: Opaline comparison

Post by Recio »

Hi Benjamin,

In other species males split for Opaline can be detected . Ex: roseicollis : http://www.tailfeathersnetwork.com/comm ... oseicollis

We usually say that an allele is recessive or dominant or ... but this is not correct. The genes or the allèles are not recessive, dominant, ... but we should say that the trait coded by that allele behaves as recessive, dominant or whatever. Let me show an example of how the same mutation can be named recessive or dominant at the same time, depending on the trait we are looking to:

Sickle cell anemia is a disease where blood cells sometimes become elongated and curved, like a sickle. Sickle shaped cells have trouble carrying oxygen, making the person anemic. This happens if both copies of your hemoglobin gene are the sickle shape allele causing all your blood cells to be sickle shaped too.
If just one copy is the sickle cell version, then you are resistant to malaria. You have a mix of sickle shaped and normal doughnut shaped cells.
So if we look at the shape of blood cells, the sickle cell allele is codominant. And if we look at malaria resistance, it is dominant. And finally, if we look at sickle cell anemia, it is recessive. One allele, three different dominances.
In fact, we can even add a fourth. Malaria resistance can be called overdominant in places where there is a lot of malaria. Overdominance is when the heterozygous phenotype is more advantageous than either of the homozygous phenotypes
.

For further information here is a really interesting article: http://genetics.thetech.org/ask-a-genet ... -phenotype

If Opaline is a kind of structural mutation we probably can detect many traits depending on the same gene. Some of them could behave as dominants (those expressed by the heterozygous birds allowing to detec splits in some species) and others as recessive. This probably applyes for most mutations which have been usually classed as recessive, but which show some particular traits in the heterozygous combo allowing to detect the "split" birds. This situation could also be classed as incomplete dominance, but this terms seems not to be correct whenever the heterozygous bird is not half way between both homozygous phénotypes.

Regards

Recio
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