How to identify homozygous Indigo Chicks ?

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Sherjil
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How to identify homozygous Indigo Chicks ?

Post by Sherjil »

Hi All;

I have an indigo blue hen sitting on 4 eggs who is paired with an indigo blue male (both hetrozygous for indigo). The eggs are about to hatch within next few days. I need to know at what age I can clearly differentiate homozygous indigo chicks from hetrozygous indigo blue chicks & what should the identifications that I look for ? sharing some reference snaps will definitely help thanks

Sherjil
Sherjil
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Re: How to identify homozygous Indigo Chicks ?

Post by Sherjil »

Please share your experience on this query , thanks
Ring0Neck
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Re: How to identify homozygous Indigo Chicks ?

Post by Ring0Neck »

Willy's pic and he said: "This image shows side by side wings of IndigoBlue and df Indigo chicks. The df Indigo has more green on the wings. "

Image
I'm an Explorer
10% luck, 20% skill, 15% concentrated power of will, 50% pleasure, 5% pain$ and a 100% reason ..I just gotta know
Sherjil
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Re: How to identify homozygous Indigo Chicks ?

Post by Sherjil »

Ring0Neck wrote:Willy's pic and he said: "This image shows side by side wings of IndigoBlue and df Indigo chicks. The df Indigo has more green on the wings. "

Image

Thanks Ring0Neck :)
Sherjil
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Re: How to identify homozygous Indigo Chicks ?

Post by Sherjil »

Hi everyone ; I got a clutch of 5 chicks out of this pairing. Sharing some latest snaps of the eldest two chicks which have good feathers now . They are around 5 weeks now. Need advice at what age will I be able to differentiate exact mutation of the chicks, all of them appear bluish at the moment ?


Under Shade Outside:


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Closeup of tail feathers:


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Outdoor Direct Sunlight (Camera and Sun in Opposite Direction)


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Outdoor Direct Sunlight (Camera & Sun in Same Direction):


Image[/QUOTE]
Mikesringnecks
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Re: How to identify homozygous Indigo Chicks ?

Post by Mikesringnecks »

Hi Sherjil
Are these from your IndigoBlue pair? If so, please remember that the "pastel" genes are significantly progressive and you may not see any green in the chicks that carry indigo until the juvenile moult. I have had that problem with TurquoiseBlue chicks and I suspect that it is more prevalent with IndigoBlues.
Kind regards
Mike
Sherjil
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Re: How to identify homozygous Indigo Chicks ?

Post by Sherjil »

Thanks Mike; Sharing some latest snaps of all clutch mates.

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The youngest chick just broke its pin feather and shows interesting color probably a homozygous bird ?

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Sharing some snaps of the parents.
Male on perch and female sitting at the entrance of nest box

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Male on perch

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Female on the mesh

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Female in focus

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Male

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Closeup of head & neck ring

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Recio
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Re: How to identify homozygous Indigo Chicks ?

Post by Recio »

Hi Sherjil,

How old is the father? I can not see any ring, despite that any parblue male, either Indigo or Turquoise, in either heterozygous or homozygous birds, should show at least the black ring, excepting if it has not reached sexual maturity (of course just speaking from a phenotypic point of view) or if other mutations/factors acting on melanin expression are at work.

If the male does not yet display the adult colours he could still colour up and show a greener colour and even a red ring after the adult molt. In this situation your male should be classified as a Turquoise morphotype and the last chick showing already the green feathers could be either BlueTurquoise or IndigoTurquoise (provided that the mother is really Indigo which is very hard to determine because females do not show the "marker": the red ring).

Regards

Recio
Sherjil
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Re: How to identify homozygous Indigo Chicks ?

Post by Sherjil »

Recio wrote:Hi Sherjil,

How old is the father? I can not see any ring, despite that any parblue male, either Indigo or Turquoise, in either heterozygous or homozygous birds, should show at least the black ring, excepting if it has not reached sexual maturity (of course just speaking from a phenotypic point of view) or if other mutations/factors acting on melanin expression are at work.

If the male does not yet display the adult colours he could still colour up and show a greener colour and even a red ring after the adult molt. In this situation your male should be classified as a Turquoise morphotype and the last chick showing already the green feathers could be either BlueTurquoise or IndigoTurquoise (provided that the mother is really Indigo which is very hard to determine because females do not show the "marker": the red ring).

Regards

Recio
Hi Recio;

Thanks for your reply :) this male is the son of the hen shown, bred after mating with a normal blue hence both should carry one type of parblue gene & both are hetrozygous parblue. The Male is around 2 years and 2 months (above 2 years for sure). We can easily conclude that he is fully sexually mature as he produced 5 out of 5 chicks with this hen :) & there were no infertile eggs. He doesn't show a black ring yet; however there are three white feathers visible on the upper ring. I have tried to capture it in the last snap , sharing again below :-

Image

I have his brother a normal blue and both of the males have only grown a few white feathers until now.No black feathers yet. I believe he will grow a full ring after the chicks will fledge and they undergo their annual molt. I'll share the snaps of his normal blue brother he looks more greyish than blue specially on the wings and chest not sure if there are any additional mutations at play.

regards;
Sherjil
willowisp71
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Re: How to identify homozygous Indigo Chicks ?

Post by willowisp71 »

Hi Sherjil,

Only just came across this thread of yours. Would be interested to know the outcome of that fifth chick from this pair, and has there been any further development in their colour since these last pics?

Beautiful pair you have there, by the way. The IndigoBlues are a stunning mutation :)
Regards Deb
Sherjil
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Re: How to identify homozygous Indigo Chicks ?

Post by Sherjil »

willowisp71 wrote:Hi Sherjil,

Only just came across this thread of yours. Would be interested to know the outcome of that fifth chick from this pair, and has there been any further development in their colour since these last pics?

Beautiful pair you have there, by the way. The IndigoBlues are a stunning mutation :)

Hi Deb;

The fifth chick is coloring up nicely; I dont have latest snaps bcos I am abroad but here are sm when the chick was popping its pins & some I took when I last visited back 2 months ago:


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Last time the chicks were under molt and hopefully when I go back next month I shall have better snaps to share . Here are some interesting snaps of the siblings :

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Image
Indian Ringneck Vic
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Re: How to identify homozygous Indigo Chicks ?

Post by Indian Ringneck Vic »

Sherjil I've been breeding Indigos for some time now and have DF several pairs and I'm now discovering that there are are different forms of this mutation and with different genotype the amount of psittacine has little to do with the quality or as an indicator of Hetro or Homo indicator.
Sherjil
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Re: How to identify homozygous Indigo Chicks ?

Post by Sherjil »

Indian Ringneck Vic wrote:Sherjil I've been breeding Indigos for some time now and have DF several pairs and I'm now discovering that there are are different forms of this mutation and with different genotype the amount of psittacine has little to do with the quality or as an indicator of Hetro or Homo indicator.
Thanks Indian Ringneck Vic;
so the only way to differentiate different genotypes of these parblue is through test breed ? If we ignore the psittacine concentration indicators can you please share your experience what additional indicators we should look for ? specially in juveniles and young birds.
Indian Ringneck Vic
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Re: How to identify homozygous Indigo Chicks ?

Post by Indian Ringneck Vic »

Sherjill my experience with these birds is the psittacine is an indicator of family group the birds belonging to the par blue group have a psittacine colour to normal or wild green these birds do have a faint pink in the neckring and I believe will increase both these when DF.

The other family is still to be determined as to what their inheritance is though I suspect they belong to the Par Ino ,Fallow or Dilute this is to be determined. These will produce Fallow type occassionally and will lean towards a faded colour with a bright over sheen.

This second family when subjected to a series of Homo matings will never show pink in the neckring and their psittacine that is a different colour actually decreases .

The third part to this is these birds have been crossed and mixed making it evan more difficult to work with.

Good Luck with your program thats all the information I'm prepared to share with you publicly and you do have a nice family of birds.
Recio
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Re: How to identify homozygous Indigo Chicks ?

Post by Recio »

Indian Ringneck Vic wrote:The other family is still to be determined as to what their inheritance is though I suspect they belong to the Par Ino ,Fallow or Dilute this is to be determined. These will produce Fallow type occassionally and will lean towards a faded colour with a bright over sheen.

This second family when subjected to a series of Homo matings will never show pink in the neckring and their psittacine that is a different colour actually decreases .
Hi Indian Ringneck Vic,

I am so pleased to read your post!!!! :P :P :P
You have just described an allele of the second blue locus (not a par-Ino but a par-Blue). I have not time rigth now, but I will try to develop this week-end. Just a question: did you ever look for an interaction of this type of parblue with Emerald?

Thanks

Recio
Sherjil
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Re: How to identify homozygous Indigo Chicks ?

Post by Sherjil »

Recio wrote:
Indian Ringneck Vic wrote:The other family is still to be determined as to what their inheritance is though I suspect they belong to the Par Ino ,Fallow or Dilute this is to be determined. These will produce Fallow type occassionally and will lean towards a faded colour with a bright over sheen.

This second family when subjected to a series of Homo matings will never show pink in the neckring and their psittacine that is a different colour actually decreases .
Hi Indian Ringneck Vic,

I am so pleased to read your post!!!! :P :P :P
You have just described an allele of the second blue locus (not a par-Ino but a par-Blue). I have not time rigth now, but I will try to develop this week-end. Just a question: did you ever look for an interaction of this type of parblue with Emerald?

Thanks

Recio

Hi Recio;

So let me imagine ... these allels i.e. second family of parblues & the emeralds are actually discovered before the blue#2 base itself ? Looking forward to some indepth details of the 2nd blue locus :)

Br/Sherjil
Indian Ringneck Vic
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Re: How to identify homozygous Indigo Chicks ?

Post by Indian Ringneck Vic »

Hi Sherjil and Recio I have never crossed Emerald into this family however I used to discuss both these mutations with the late Jack Smith whom agreed they were different to the par-blue family and were to patchy to belong to the Emerald family this was 4-5 years back and in those days this family still resembled normal par blue only they had a darker hue to their blue and a different coloured psittacine overlay note evan at this early stage of development they never showed red in the neck ring and never spread their psittacine into the body and always displayed a very bright face mask.
These features were then their hall mark


Now after further development I've come to realise the Indigo feature is only one characteristic of much larger and complicated mutation and I'm currently more interested in the birds being produced with very little or no psittacine that are being produced without crossing.These birds are amazing as they are still progressive with their development up to 3 years of age.

I am currently in discussion with your colleagues Recio and the 2nd Blue possibilty has been on the table we're now looking at other possible scenario's however it is still early days and development is still continuing I would prefer to take the time and get it wright.
Recio
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Re: How to identify homozygous Indigo Chicks ?

Post by Recio »

Hi,

We call a parblue to a bird showing a partial expression of psittacins. This partial expression can be achieved by two mechanisms:
1. Partial activation of the pathway leading to psittacin production so that a lower amount of final psittacin is produced.
2. Partial inactivation of the pathway leading to psittacin production so that a lower amount of final psittacin is produced.

What does it mean and which is the difference between partial activation and partial inactivation?

Ex: let's imagine an heterozygous parblue bird showing a 30% psittacin. This can be due to a 30% activation of the normal pathway leading to psittacin production or it can be due to a 70% inhibition of such a pathway. How to know which is the rigth answer? Let's see how the mutation behaves in the homozygous phorm.
If the mechanism is a partial activation the homozygous bird will show a 30% + (30%x70%)= 51% of psittacin production. This is the usual case of Turquoise and Indigo parblues. If the mechanism is a partial inactivation the homozygous bird will show a higher inhibition than the heterozygous phorm: 70% + (30%x70%)=91% inhibition and thus the final amount of psittacins will be 9%. This the case of those birds and it also seems to be the case of Emerald.

The inactivation process needs of an activated pathway to be expressed. If the pathway has been inactivated by the presence of BlueBlue, the inactivating mechanism will be masked. The enzymes working at the activation and the inactivation mechanisms are differents, and each one should be coded by a specific different gene .... two different genes regulating psittacin production.

If this is a second blue gene, with a different mechanism of action, it could expalin the very different phenotypic offspring that breeders were getting with such a mix of genes, and which made people say that parblue expression has variable penetrance.

What is important is to understand that the mutations acting through a partial activation (homozygous phorm with higher psittacin) and those acting through a partial inactivation (homozygous phorm with lower psittacin) can not be due to the mutation of the same gene, and thus we can refer to two blue loci, even if the Blue2 has not been identified (this is the case for other species which only show parblues without any blue yet identified).

The second Blue locus in budgies seems to share the particularity of the homozygous birds showing less psittacin than the heterozygous birds. See here the comments of Peter Wouters: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Gen ... pics/22617

Maybe we should speak about "positif parblues" (homozygous birds greener than heterozygous birds) and "negatif parblues" (homozygous birds bluer than heterozygous birds).

The other specific features noted by Indian Ringneck Vic add consistency to this idea of a different specific parblue.

Best regards.

Recio
Indian Ringneck Vic
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Re: How to identify homozygous Indigo Chicks ?

Post by Indian Ringneck Vic »

Recio wrote:Hi,

Maybe we should speak about "positif parblues" (homozygous birds greener than heterozygous birds) and "negatif parblues" (homozygous birds bluer than heterozygous birds).

The other specific features noted by Indian Ringneck Vic add consistency to this idea of a different specific parblue.

Best regards.

Recio
Recio this is an accurate discription of my experience to date however there is one other common trait in this family of birds that started appearing from different pairs of homozygous matings and these birds have been best described by Tienie as Cinnamon with a grey under tone (no brown visual anywhere) these birds appear to have a green sheen (over lay that covers entire body)
Sherjil
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Re: How to identify homozygous Indigo Chicks ?

Post by Sherjil »

Indian Ringneck Vic wrote:
Recio wrote:Hi,

Maybe we should speak about "positif parblues" (homozygous birds greener than heterozygous birds) and "negatif parblues" (homozygous birds bluer than heterozygous birds).

The other specific features noted by Indian Ringneck Vic add consistency to this idea of a different specific parblue.

Best regards.

Recio
Recio this is an accurate discription of my experience to date however there is one other common trait in this family of birds that started appearing from different pairs of homozygous matings and these birds have been best described by Tienie as Cinnamon with a grey under tone (no brown visual anywhere) these birds appear to have a green sheen (over lay that covers entire body)

Recio this is an accurate discription of my experience to date however there is one other common trait in this family of birds that started appearing from different pairs of homozygous matings
Hi Indian Ringneck Vic;

Can you please share the snaps of the homozygous parent birds ? apparently wht i got from your earlier and current description is that when two homozygous Parblue from this family were mated you got a different type of homzygous parblue offspring which didn't resemble its indigo parents and had "reduced psittacine" plus was "brighter"?

Can you please share the snaps of the hetrozygous and homozygous offspring birds side by side as to show , many thanks :)

Regards;
Sherjil
Recio
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Re: How to identify homozygous Indigo Chicks ?

Post by Recio »

Indian Ringneck Vic wrote: Recio this is an accurate discription of my experience to date however there is one other common trait in this family of birds that started appearing from different pairs of homozygous matings and these birds have been best described by Tienie as Cinnamon with a grey under tone (no brown visual anywhere) these birds appear to have a green sheen (over lay that covers entire body)
Hi Indian Ringneck Vic,

What are you meaning as "Cinnamon with a grey under tone (no brown visual anywhere)"? Are you meaning Cinnamon as a mutation or as a descriptif term of their phenotype? Brown melanin can produce either grey, beige or brown colours with different deepness depending on interaction with feather structure.

And what about the "green sheen (over lay that covers entire body)"? This reminds me strongly the Emerald mutation. Those birds, like Emerald, seem to act through an inhibitory mechanism of psittacin synthesis, so that the homozygous phorms show less psittacin than the heterozygous birds, exactly like Emerald decreasing psittacins in the combos with Turquoise so that no red ring is visible. Did you look at them under uv to compare with Emeralds?

As Sherjil says some pics would be really valuable.

Best regards

Recio
Indian Ringneck Vic
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Re: How to identify homozygous Indigo Chicks ?

Post by Indian Ringneck Vic »

Recio good morning

Cinnamon look with grey under tone is a reference to phenotype only as these birds are not sex linked and are appearing in increasing numbers from parents of normal phenotypes and come in hens and cocks alike by the way one of these cocks was produced from a heterozygous mating.

Birds that exhibit green overlay over thier entire body. These birds would be difficult to capture on camera as in the shade they appear as blue birds that are deeper than normal and have a dark under tone that could almost be described as a grain (dark ashen colour) then when these same birds are viewed in bright sun light they appear green (full body oversheen)

A friend of mine Ross whom I've been telling about this effect for months now could'nt contain his excitement when he observed this effect first hand he spent considerable time watching the birds travel between the flight aviary to the sheltered section this was on a bright sunny day which is perfect to view this effect.

UV light I don't use this medium as I have spent my entire carree using , designing and installing artifical lighting and consider this medium flawed and the effects it produces as being subject to an array of inconsistances.
allair
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Re: How to identify homozygous Indigo Chicks ?

Post by allair »

Vic , Recio

I agree with this because I have breed a similar bird , thirst thought it to be very close to emerald but to patchy for that
This birds have a very high shinning green cover in the sun and are lighter than Indigo , but it is not looking similar than Indigo because of the new futures
Also the heads tend to look much more green .

I then thought about this and start of with a grey green male and green turguoise keeping in mind that if i can breed an ino out of them I can do similar experiment
I was lucky and this year I have breed this ino to a blue male

Right know in the nest i have 3 youngsters but like explained they have a cinnamon coloured brown in them .
the first one is a patchy green bird, without the blue that one get in turguoise , with cinnamon brown flights and tail
the second a darker blue with more brown cinnamon coloured flights and tail
they 3 a very light grey with a cinnamon coloured brown wings and tail ,
It is very similar that the results above . i don't think these birds are cinnamon at all , it rather seems that they have lost the dark factor that make the flights a grey black colour .

I am going to breed the Indigo type back to blue to see if it change back or if one get the same result

Regards
2015
Df turquoise violet / pied * violet AMD pied
YHYT olive * DF Indigo
Dark blue pied * Violet opaline
Violet blue AMD pied * Cobalt df Violet
DF Indigo * Blue opaline
Green pied * green opaline /pied
whwt Cobalt * blue whwt
Olive Pied * violet blue pied
allair
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Re: How to identify homozygous Indigo Chicks ?

Post by allair »

the birds I talked about
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this was the biggest surprise
this was the biggest surprise
light grey.PNG (55.91 KiB) Viewed 13108 times
the bird is greener than on the photo but similar than the blue
the bird is greener than on the photo but similar than the blue
grey green.PNG (75.45 KiB) Viewed 13108 times
this blue have also the same futures (brown)
this blue have also the same futures (brown)
dark blue.PNG (87.59 KiB) Viewed 13108 times
2015
Df turquoise violet / pied * violet AMD pied
YHYT olive * DF Indigo
Dark blue pied * Violet opaline
Violet blue AMD pied * Cobalt df Violet
DF Indigo * Blue opaline
Green pied * green opaline /pied
whwt Cobalt * blue whwt
Olive Pied * violet blue pied
allair
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Re: How to identify homozygous Indigo Chicks ?

Post by allair »

Indigo youngster same as yours
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Indigo with the same green sheen as you talked about , in shade and normal light she is blue , in sunlight she is green and highly reflective .
Indigo with the same green sheen as you talked about , in shade and normal light she is blue , in sunlight she is green and highly reflective .
indigo young.jpg (34.01 KiB) Viewed 13107 times
2015
Df turquoise violet / pied * violet AMD pied
YHYT olive * DF Indigo
Dark blue pied * Violet opaline
Violet blue AMD pied * Cobalt df Violet
DF Indigo * Blue opaline
Green pied * green opaline /pied
whwt Cobalt * blue whwt
Olive Pied * violet blue pied
Recio
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Re: How to identify homozygous Indigo Chicks ?

Post by Recio »

Hi Allair,

I do not think that those birds are indigo. Indigo chicks are blue and only after fledging they develop some green feathers. Those birds are something different. As you say they seem to be highly iridescent and the more iridescent part is the extreme tip of the wing bar feathers, where we can also see the yellow colour.
Young Turquoise, Lutinos and Wild birds are not fluorescent and do not show this type of iridescence. You should look at your birds under a uv ligth (better at 395 nm). If they are fluorescent very probably you are dealing with a new mutation of patched psittacins able to be expressed in young birds.

Regards

Recio
Mikesringnecks
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Re: How to identify homozygous Indigo Chicks ?

Post by Mikesringnecks »

Hi Recio
I will be pairing Emerald Cleartails to each other next season with a little luck. Probably VioletGreen; EmeraldBlue; CleartailCleartail cock to a DarkGreen; EmeraldBlue; CleartailCleartail hen (I am assuming emerald is a par blue until I can prove otherwise). Are you suggesting that I will be able to identify an EmeraldEmerald chick because it will have even less psitticin than an EmeraldBlue?
They will both be 2 year olds so should double clutch quite happily so it will be an interesting experience,
kind regards
Mike
Recio
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Re: How to identify homozygous Indigo Chicks ?

Post by Recio »

Mikesringnecks wrote:Hi Recio
I will be pairing Emerald Cleartails to each other next season with a little luck. Probably VioletGreen; EmeraldBlue; CleartailCleartail cock to a DarkGreen; EmeraldBlue; CleartailCleartail hen (I am assuming emerald is a par blue until I can prove otherwise). Are you suggesting that I will be able to identify an EmeraldEmerald chick because it will have even less psitticin than an EmeraldBlue?
They will both be 2 year olds so should double clutch quite happily so it will be an interesting experience,
kind regards
Mike
Hi Mike,
Some facts:

1. Emerald decreases the expresión of patched psittacins (they disappear in the Emerald Turquoise combo) and of the red ring (it disappears or becomes a cream color in the Emerald Turquoise combo).

2. Chris produced two different Emerald phenotypes when trying to produce a DF Emerald, and he sent both birds to Deon. It was assumed that the greener one (with more psittacins and more fluorescent under uv) was the DF bird and that the bluer one was the SF Emerald. Nevertheless till now it is the bluer bird which has produced 100% Emerald offspring, suggesting that it is the bluer bird which is DF Emerald. This result matches the previous point suggesting an inhibitory action of Emerald on psittacins metabolism, so that when two Emerald alleles are present (DF Emerald) there is a higher inhibition of psittacin production than when just one allele is at work (SF Emerald). The greener Emerald has not produced any offspring till now. To be followed to get confirmation of the real phenotype of DF Emerald, but everything points to a bluer bird. This is another difference between Emerald and the patched alleles (Saphire, Indigo, Turquoise) which act through a partial activactory mechanism, so that the homozygous birds are greener (more psittacins expressed) than the heterozygous birds (ParblueBlue).

I am "anxious" to know Deon's results of uv studies under specific wavelengths trying to identify both absortion and emisión frequencies for each fluorescent psittacin (the warmer yellow wing barr psitacin of wild, lutino and Turquoise birds, and the whither/bluer colder fluorescent of Emerald birds). These studies should be made in Turquoise Emerald combo as well as in Green Emerald birds.

Best regards Mike

Recio
Last edited by Recio on Sun Oct 12, 2014 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mikesringnecks
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Re: How to identify homozygous Indigo Chicks ?

Post by Mikesringnecks »

Hi Recio
Thanks very much for that background, I hadn't heard about Deon's results. I have a 2 year old TurquoiseEmerald Cleartail hen photo attached and she has never been patchy, even as a juvenile, just as you suggest it should be. Her psitticin expression is quite strong as you can see in the photo but hard to compare to a straight TurquoiseBlue Cleartail because they are patchy and vary somewhat bird to bird.
I do have a TurquoiseBlue Cleartail cock that may colour up this year that carries a lot of psitticin and I will try some comparative photography with TurquoiseEmerald birds (I think I have bred some) and an old mature TurquoiseBlue Cleartail that has a full yellow head but not much on the underside.
kind regards
mike
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