Saddleback ?

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Ring0Neck
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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Ring0Neck »

sheyd wrote:
Ring0Neck wrote:The red eye might be from the flash/angle of the eye & in fact there could be no red eye.
Don't believe I've ever seen a pic of a IRN having red eyes (due to flash) that weren't already of a mutation that are hatched with red eyes. Do you have an example?

Shey,

I don't remember seeing one either, however it is ideal to explore all possibilities before jumping to conclusions. I don't take many pics with flash.
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sheyd
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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by sheyd »

Ben, you don't need to of taken a lot of pics with flash-- others have already done the work for you (plenty of people like to take pics with flash on sale ads ect, ect)-

I've been specifically looking for and am yet to see a non-red eyed mutation show a red eye with a flash- I've tried my own experiments too- to see if I could make it happen - no success yet- I don't believe it's possible or find it highly unlikely (but am happy to be proven wrong- hence why I asked if you had an example).

anyhow... back to the thread.
mcw-indianringnecks
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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by mcw-indianringnecks »

i have tryed loading photoes ,its just to hard ,sorry
There are no red eyes in the saddleback line ,its just the way that photo turned out.
madas
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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by madas »

mcw-indianringnecks wrote:i have tryed loading photoes ,its just to hard ,sorry
There are no red eyes in the saddleback line ,its just the way that photo turned out.
Hi Chris,

thx for your response. But if the three birds are siblings why is the bird on the left showing a completly other "eye" then the other two?
Can you ask Philip to re-check the Bird on the left for the true eye color. I can't believe it is camera made.

Regarding the pics: you can forward them to me for uploading. mada_s(at)ymail.com

regards.

madas
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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by madas »

here is the pic of Chris (comments will follow by him self):

Image

madas
bennjamin
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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by bennjamin »

The 3 birds in question, the bird with the red eye has flights and tail cleaner, its base colour is also paler than the bird one the right as well I see the toe of the LHS bird looks more bleached than its counter part, better pic maybe would clear this up.
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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by madas »

Some more pics of Chris:

Image

Image

Image

madas
mcw-indianringnecks
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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by mcw-indianringnecks »

Phil breed 3 saddlebacks this year all cocks ,1 i have ready for export ,1 going to live in Sydney + 1 4sale .Pics of the 3 birds have been added Thanks Stef. Notice the varst difference of colour in these birds ,if you go to my web site you will notice all saddleback display varstly differently to each other + there colour changes so much so quickly , Yet none have red eyes>
The original picture is about 10 weeks old
mallee_1
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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by mallee_1 »

Hi Guys,

Can we clear up what determines or disinguishes the difference between a saddleback pied & a harlequin pied in Australia.

After seeing this go on for some time now, I still can't clearly pin what the criteria is to determine one from the other. I have seen pieds around that seem to be part way between the best saddlebacks (photos of CW) and some average harlequins, is this a poor saddleback or a good harlequin???????

Awaiting the many responses and hopefully come up with an answer :idea: :|

Regards Glenn
prodigy
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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by prodigy »

Dominant Pied, Clear Flights and Clear Tail with at saddle on the back, have I missed anything ?
Ring0Neck
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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Ring0Neck »

prodigy wrote:Dominant Pied, Clear Flights and Clear Tail with at saddle on the back, have I missed anything ?
by the time the bird is 1 y old saddle should have extended over the whole back of the bird.
sharper colors
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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by prodigy »

Ben what happens to the Opaline Dom Pieds as that color up and moult out ?

What would happen to the young bird below ??

Image
Ring0Neck
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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Ring0Neck »

Pete,

Not sure. I'm just getting into Opalines now, i know little about the combo, esp. with Parblue.
Maybe someone else can answer that.
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prodigy
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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by prodigy »

Thanks Mate
Mikesringnecks
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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Mikesringnecks »

Hi all saddleback enthusiasts
At the end of page 3 of this thread I posted 3 pics of a young TurquoiseBlue Cleartail with a well defined "saddle". No other genes involved. Can someone please explain the relevance or lack of it.
Kind regards
Mike
Gratz
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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Gratz »

Hi Mike

From what I have seen and read so far, all the Saddlebacks have a bright yellow saddle,
Also the read that the saddle has nothing to do with the actual saddleback mutation
but then I also read that they start with nothing , get a saddle at the first moult , then the saddle spreads over the wings of the bird as well.
I also have seen a photo of Babu's saddleback and it seems very clear to have a yellow saddle
then I see photos of chicks in a nest and the saddlebacks are identified in the nest with pin feathers.
Another thing is that it seems that saddlebacks are found only with the pied combination
and most importantly There is no turquoise in saddlebacks

yes very confusing.

regards
Gratz
Mikesringnecks
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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Mikesringnecks »

Hi Gratz
Thanks very much for that. So my green saddle is not a saddleback saddle, it would need an additional gene to remove the black pigment from the saddle area, such as dominant pied, to make it a proper "saddleback" with a yellow saddle.
It is interesting that the turquoise gene can add yellow to the saddle area to produce a "green saddleback" isn't it.
kind regards
Mike
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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by madas »

Some pics again from Chris (comments will follow):

Image
Image
Image

madas
mcw-indianringnecks
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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by mcw-indianringnecks »

As you can see the Saddlebacks always display strongly as the pin feathers open.
In the photoe of my DF Harlequin Saddleback you can see around 3 months you couldnt tell this bird from any other Turquoise bird. [ DF Harlequin or creamino ].
From 7 or 8 months theres always a strong colour change , yet again some Turquoise also show colour change ,but not as strongly as in the saddlebacks .
Deon doesnt show a strong interest in the psittacin display or the yellowing of these birds , he is more interested in the depth of colour the general richness these birds display?
From there 1st molt you can see another magor change , but these birds change so much so often , If you look at each saddleback on my web they are all very different to each other , no 2 saddlebacks are born looking like its brothers etc.
We all realise saddleback to be the wrong name for these birds , but we inherited it ,until Tienies And Deons breeding results we will have to live with it , Hopefully they will establish a more approprate name.We use the name SADDLEBACK to describe a bird we beleive IS NOT A SIMPLE TURQUOISE bird , i assume most people realise this is the point ive been trying to make, it is disappointing when so many people use the name SADDLEBACK to describe birds they know are simply TURQUOISE.
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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Mikesringnecks »

Hi Chris
Thanks for that insight. So presumably, all my TurquoiseBlue Cleartail with a green saddle proves is that the saddle area on the bird is inclined to attract yellow pigmentation in preference to surrounding areas? That is something I am quite happy to accept, I just thought its occurrence was interesting.
I can also happily accept that, as you have often said, "saddlebacks" do not carry a "par blue" gene (turquoise, indigo, sapphire or emerald). However, I am still confused about what saddlebacks really are. Am I correct in assuming that they do carry a "Dominant Pied" gene of some sort or are they a completely separate mutation or are they a separate mutation in combination with a "Dominant Pied" gene?
As far as the "saddleback" is concerned do you know what the current thinking is or should we sensibly await outcomes from Deon's next breeding season?
Kind regards
Mike
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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by mcw-indianringnecks »

I beleive ive sent Deon And Tienie very good stock to sort this stuff out ,Especially the green series birds , i think there breeding results will tell a lot about them , I hope my results from adding Emerold will also help clear the air so to speak.
I think it best we wait for there results as breeding season isnt far away and there birds are mature.
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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by mcw-indianringnecks »

Ive never claimed them to be a new mutation ,in saying that i dont beleive they are a combination of colours either?
All ive said is i do not beleive these birds are Turquoise ,Do you think this bird is a simple Turquoise Harlequin .
If its not Turquoise it then must still be a par blue of some type ?
I have found 1 bird similar to mine ,its Emerold DF Harlequin ,yet we know theres no emerold in saddlebacks ,i have found 4 or 5 Turquoise DF Harlequins that display as you would expect Turquoise would .
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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Ring0Neck »

madas wrote:Some more pics of Chris:

...

Image

...

madas
I can't tell apart from the above bird & below TurquoiseBlue Harlequin which you know well and now own for many years Chris.


Image
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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by mcw-indianringnecks »

Deon beleives the richness and depth of colour is the essance of saddleback , this is actually his bird so we will be able to have his breeding results when the time comes .I beleive hes mating him to Cobalt Emerold ?
If you have a closer look at the top bird the yellowing is a lot richer than the turquoise in bottom picture. [ my opion anyway ].
Babu beleives if we continually breed back to normal colours as in emerold ,cobalt etc , . we should be able to breed harlequin out of these birds. ??
Babus first saddleback was breed from the bird on page 382 bottom photo in Sjacks book
-Dominate pied -grey green , he now beleives this wasnt a dominate pied .
The saddleback appears to have come to Australia the same way as Opaline ,carried on a gene in Harlequin.?
Added pic of Laffeys Emerold DF Harlequin
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Ring0Neck
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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Ring0Neck »

-Dominate pied -grey green , he now beleives this wasnt a dominate pied .
Yep, just as i speculate about some of our OZ birds SBs inclusive, and i mentioned in a couple of posts that some pieds might not be harlequins and perhaps not even dom. pieds.
Did he say what he paired that bird to? Emerald ?


PS: Breeding a clear bird from 2 pieds does not guarantee it is a DF Pied IMO, only when we breed 100% pieds offspring from clear bird x normal.
We keep talking about variable phenotype in pieds, but the 2 birds in the pics above were bred 7+ years apart yet almost identical.
Q is Why do we see major changes in pieds morphotype then (parent V offspring)? it must be Extraneous Variables (like a modifier or mutation) or the bird is a totally different mutation /type of pieds to the other pieds.
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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by madas »

Here are some news pics from Chris of a special "saddleback" with red eyes and no visible iris. This bird was discussed earlier but couldn't find the exact thread.
At that time Chris had the opinion it is due to the effects of a flash or an effect of the photography but he couldn't confirm it because the bird wasn't owned by him. Which changed now. :) He informed me that bird is clearly showing an non typical saddleback eye without iris and a red color. But he is still unsure what it is caused by.

Image

Image

greetings.

madas

PS: Maybe Chris is adding some more infos.
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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by madas »

For me the feets look cinnamon but not sure too. So is there a chance that a combo of dom. pied and cinnamon could cause a translucent iris?

madas
Recio
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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Recio »

Hi Madas,

I can not see any cinnamon marker in either the nails, the feet colour, the bill or the wing feathers.

About the reason of the translucent iris other than clear head fallow ... nor idea :(

Regards

Recio
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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by mcw-indianringnecks »

Gratz you should probally point out,the farther to your bird in Deons book was the Turquoise Harlequin i sent to Deon , He used it to Compare to Saddleback and your bird isnt Saddleback and has nothing at all to do with saddlebacks Except as a comparasion bird for saddlebacks.Its simply a Turquoise Harlequin ,with a saddle.
On my web site theres lots of pictures of Opaline Harlequins including turquoise and DF Harlequin Opaline hens and cocks , the interesting thing there they actually have a white head and a very light blue body, worth a look .
I will add my apoligies ,,Phils saddleback which desplayed the red eyes i thought was from the camera , i was wrong .,, new pictures have been added thanks to madas in a different thread i suppose.
I know very little about S L Edge , im glad to see Bob doesnt think its involved with saddlebacks, Im sure without dought that Opaline has nothing to do with Saddlebacks either , I dont beleive Turquoise is involved either , [ if they were TURQUOISE , then we could call them TURQUOISE Harlequins couldnt we.].
As ive said before Tienie and Deon both have saddlebacks in SF and DF Harlequin +saddleback ,They also have most of the Green Series Harlequins breed from saddlebacks , Lets wait and see there breeding results . Interesting fact NO Saddlebacks have ever been breed from a green series bird breed from Saddleback , but numbers still very low to be of any help??
This year both Phil and i have put our saddlebacks to Emerold to see there results , Tienie didnt agree with this mating , lets see the results, both my pairs layed this week.
So if we assume SL Edge ,,Opaline and Turquoise are not involved in Saddlebacks whats left ?????
Gratz
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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Gratz »

So a year has passed since this post and no update on the breeding results?.
by the way Chris I do have Dr Deon's book and it is amusing that Dr Deon himself has labeled the father of my bird as the Blue Saddleback.
But don't be concerned as I am not claiming that I have a saddleback.
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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by mcw-indianringnecks »

From memory you bought your turquoise harlequin from Joe [as a turquoise harlequin ], Who has never owned saddleback & never breed saddleback & never sold Saddleback , So im glad to see you dont claim to own saddleback ?So what are your breeding results ?My Saddleback layed its 4th egg today ?As i have pointed out before the picture you referred to in Deons book is displaying Joes Turquoise Harlequin as comparision to a similar looking Saddleback ,So you own Turquoise Harlequin congradulations so do i ??
If you look at the underwing marker of your Turquoise Harlequin under 1 year old you will see the difference between the two.
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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Gratz »

the breeding results I was refering to was from the eggs laid in August last year.(2014)
would be interesting to see your and Phill's results
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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by mcw-indianringnecks »

As you would expect my breeding results are on my web site ,under Saddlebacks, Theres also a series of Underwing Marker photos to compare to saddlebacks which are born with underwing markers ,You will be able to check with your young as Turquoise dont develop these markers until there 1 yr old molt.As usual i only breed 1 saddleback it was born in emerold .
Mikesringnecks
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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Mikesringnecks »

Hi Gratz
I think Chris has bred a saddleback this year without a pied gene in it but i haven't been to look at it yet.
Kind regards
Mike
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