white on white

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Ring0Neck
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white on white

Post by Ring0Neck »


Have a look at this young bird (not mine) bred from Cinn Violet X cinn. blue hen
I assume the male is split pallid? or are we looking at something else here?
http://traceybirds.webs.com/apps/photos ... =165705065
madas
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Re: white on white

Post by madas »

Ring0Neck wrote:
Have a look at this young bird (not mine) bred from Cinn Violet X cinn. blue hen
I assume the male is split pallid? or are we looking at something else here?
http://traceybirds.webs.com/apps/photos ... =165705065
Yeah could be a pallid cinnamon crossover.

What kind of bird is this non-violet in the following pic? Deep? It can't be normal blue and doens't look like cobalt.

Image

And this? Deep green?

Image
Ring0Neck
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Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck »


The blue bird is a European Cobalt
The green ... i'll ask
I think some colors are really enhanced by the camera, especially in the youngsters .
The birds must get heaps of sun, see the cinn. blues (we are in sunshine state after all)
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Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck »

Madas,

I got myself a Brinsea Ova-Scope. Are you pretty certain that it'll show if egss are fertile after 5 days of incubation?

Green bird is apparently a green he uses as foster parent .

PS. He also added: one violet hen took 3 years to show the turquoise ...how bizzare.

** on the white bird: he bred about 20 normal colored birds and only 1 crossed-over cinn-pallid
for the stats 20:1


Recio
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Re: white on white

Post by Recio »

Ring0Neck wrote:PS. He also added: one violet hen took 3 years to show the turquoise ...how bizzare.
Hi Ben

Does he own a pic of such a parblue violet hen? If this parblue behaves like other parblues this hen should show a very ligth non fluorescent "turquoise" patchiness, even lower than described for Saphire, further supporting the multiallelic capacity of the blue locus and the consideration of the patched phenotypes as different possible morphotypes which can be obtained by different parblue allele combinations.
It would also be interesting to know if the female was able to breed (or not) before the parblue became evident since a relation between expression of patched psittacins and sex hormones has been postulated.

Regards

Recio
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Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck »


Molossus the pic of the Cobalt Madas was showing is from the same website i started this thread, from
a local breeder.

** I really hope that we can find an easier way to distinguish between deep n dark.
their phenotype is too close to each other.
I'd be willing to try any pairings just to find a way. ie; pair deep to lutino etc.
suggestions?

Recio - I'll ask him - he tells me it's not his bird but a breeder he was getting violets from.

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Re: white on white

Post by madas »

Ring0Neck wrote:Madas,
I got myself a Brinsea Ova-Scope. Are you pretty certain that it'll show if egss are fertile after 5 days of incubation?
Jeap. Pretty sure after 5 Days egg 1 and egg 2 should show small veins. After 2 days of incubation you should see a Change within the egg yolk.
Btw: One of my cleartail pairs laid their last (nr. 5) eggs yesterday. So egg 3 was laid 5 days before. Then candling the eggs with a normal torch i could see two eggs already showed veins and show a red Color within the light of the torch. I use the Ova-Scope to see if the chicks resp. eggs are still alive around 15 days and 2 days before hatching to see if the Youngster breaked thru the Membrane inside the egg.

madas
Ring0Neck
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Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck »

It's an interesting thought.
I don't have a mature grey-green, not sure i want one either. i have a young CT male but not ready to breed.
As i mentioned to you i will have greyblue emerald x deepblue, similar perhaps not the same outcome
using a emerald in case/as expected deep to be masked by grey if so, birds are still of some value to me.
I use mature deep hen in this case hoping to get double clutch making sure i get a grey deep blue.
** correction the mature hen will be paired to the emerald grey male
Great info Madas , Thanks
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Re: white on white

Post by Johan S »

Ring0Neck wrote:** I really hope that we can find an easier way to distinguish between deep n dark.
their phenotype is too close to each other.
Wait till you see a SF of one of the Nico Theunissen birds. Their tail feather fits between deep and dark. They are even more confusing and I'm willing to bet that if you have only one of the two on display, 95 out of a 100 breeders will not be able to ID which one it is. And add to that that it definitely seems as if there is a slightly darker strain of cobalt in SA than some the dark birds in Europe, and things get really confusing.

I'm really looking forward to the result of grey deep. It will reveal a lot about the deep factor. And so will cobalt deep to test allelic interaction.
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Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck »

Does anyone know why i have these markings on the edged violet's tail?
I acquired this bird a couple of months ago.

Image
Lushen1600
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Re: white on white

Post by Lushen1600 »

Ring0Neck wrote:Does anyone know why i have these markings on the edged violet's tail?
I acquired this bird a couple of months ago.

Image

Stress Barring?
2014 Pairs
Green x Green
DGreen x DBlue
DE Blue/ino x DBlue
Grey/ino x Albino
Pallidino x Lutino
DE Blue Turq x Grey
DE Grey Turq x Blue
Greygreen/cinn x DE Blue Cinn
DE DBlue Turq x Blue Turq CHWT
Blue x DBlue Turq
Blue x Blue Pallid
Lutino/blue x Blue
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Re: white on white

Post by Johan S »

Ben, I think it is part of the edge mutation. I have seen this in some of our birds too. I love violet edge, do you have some more pics?
Farzz1
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Re: white on white

Post by Farzz1 »

Hi
That cannot be stress related
I have seen that markings on some my dom edge birds however in my previous post with regard to the partridge /grizzle /rec edge that tail feathers are identical were an edge is displayed only on the tail ,strange
Thanks
Ring0Neck
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Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck »

Lushen, good point, however i also doubt it is from that.
He is a pretty cool/relaxed bird & on a good mixed diet.
It probably is edge related

(click once on the pic to enlarge)

http://parakeet.me/irn/f/edge/edv.JPG
http://parakeet.me/irn/f/edge/IMG_7389.JPG
http://parakeet.me/irn/f/edge/edgedvio.jpg
Lushen1600
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Re: white on white

Post by Lushen1600 »

Hi Ben, with the new pics I now see that it cannot be stress barring?

Thanks
Lushen
2014 Pairs
Green x Green
DGreen x DBlue
DE Blue/ino x DBlue
Grey/ino x Albino
Pallidino x Lutino
DE Blue Turq x Grey
DE Grey Turq x Blue
Greygreen/cinn x DE Blue Cinn
DE DBlue Turq x Blue Turq CHWT
Blue x DBlue Turq
Blue x Blue Pallid
Lutino/blue x Blue
Ring0Neck
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Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck »

emerald grey's head - love the color
Image
sheyd
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Re: white on white

Post by sheyd »

Lovely birds Ben- Dom edge is next on my list- (if I can find one up here) I especially like the tail markings on the Violet
Ring0Neck
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Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck »

http://parakeet.me/irn/f/edge/inflight.jpg

add cinnamon to edged.
it gives a nice spin to it, not to mention adding a pied
unless things change i will pair up the bird in flight to a dom. blue pied this season

I was impressed by Tienie's ADM & edge birds.
Ring0Neck
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Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck »

madas wrote: What kind of bird is this non-violet in the following pic? Deep? It can't be normal blue and doens't look like cobalt.
Image
This is my cobalt hen mature, it is indeed light colored similar to the 1 in the pic.
I will pair her up to another cobalt to make sure (if i get mauves) that she is eu cobalt.

My early experiences (8 or so years ago) with european cobalts here in OZ, they were very light colored, i remember such a pair that i had trouble distinguishing bewteen them and blues, for that reason i sold them.
Cobalt wasn't sought after here not untill cobalt cleartail was bred, then it gained some popularity.
These are just my views/experiences, other Ozi breeders might see it differently.
Johan remembers when we started talking about Deep blue i kept saying "deep blue darker then cobalts" and he kept correcting me :D
* When i went to Ron's place he showed me the Deeps for the first time (back in 08 i think) my impression was: darker > cobalt.
Perhaps the Df deep i saw made an inprint and i got stuck with that image.
83IV
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Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck »

Molossus,
Pic above was taken with flash (can see the reflection in the background)

*a thought: eu cobalts were imported into Oz, we get sun here all year round it is possible that cobalts were washed off their color till they adjusted to the climate, a few years, this would somehow explain why seeing such light cobalts in early days.
Remember we discussed on this forum a bird i had with an almost white body but well colored head?? it was a cinnamon blue and Madas got it right that time, after moult non of that white body is visible.

there was a confusion initially since both birds were referred as cobalts.

Yes it's possible.. i thought about that ..

This is the only pic i have for now of the deepblue left and the cobalt right.
* 2 photos joined together for comparison, taken same day. (3 months ago)
not as accurate as 1 shot as light can change when the second pic is taken.
I might get some pics as you suggested when i pair them up , soonish.
Image
Last edited by Ring0Neck on Sat Apr 13, 2013 5:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ring0Neck
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Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck »

This breeder calls this turq. emerald grey Ct
I emailed Recio a while back re this bird and he didn't think it was turq.
I also think it's a grey-green not turq grey.
i think breeder paired up an emerald (blue she thought) green/blue X df turquoise grey? even turq. grey blue

thoughts?

http://www.ourringnecks.com/apps/photos ... =172255721

I posted quiet a few posts in the last couple of days... it is raining here, stuck under the roof.
Johan S
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Re: white on white

Post by Johan S »

molossus wrote: The Cobalt (D)I know that you have there, is exactly the same phenotype as the cobalt we have in good ole s. a.
You mean is the same as one of the variants of cobalt we have here in SA. I'll bring some feathers along of our cobalt collection and you can judge for yourself. :D
sheyd
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Re: white on white

Post by sheyd »

Ring0Neck wrote:This breeder calls this turq. emerald grey Ct
I emailed Recio a while back re this bird and he didn't think it was turq.
I also think it's a grey-green not turq grey.
i think breeder paired up an emerald (blue she thought) green/blue X df turquoise grey? even turq. grey blue

thoughts?

http://www.ourringnecks.com/apps/photos ... =172255721

I posted quiet a few posts in the last couple of days... it is raining here, stuck under the roof.
I've looked at that bird before and thought the same as you (bout the bird- didn't think about the actual breeding)

on another note... I don't like how some big name breeders use different names for the same mutations within their aviaries- it's like they're trying to hold onto their 'secrets' of their breeding program by confusing people- I see it a lot.
trabots
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Re: white on white

Post by trabots »

Wait till you see a SF of one of the Nico Theunissen birds. Their tail feather fits between deep and dark. They are even more confusing and I'm willing to bet that if you have only one of the two on display, 95 out of a 100 breeders will not be able to ID which one it is. And add to that that it definitely seems as if there is a slightly darker strain of cobalt in SA than some the dark birds in Europe, and things get really confusing.

I'm really looking forward to the result of grey deep. It will reveal a lot about the deep factor. And so will cobalt deep to test allelic interaction.
[/quote]

That is why we need the DF SA Deep Blue to be bred, or has it been bred??
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Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck »

Shey,
I don't like how some big name breeders use different names for the same mutations within their aviaries- it's like they're trying to hold onto their 'secrets' of their breeding program by confusing people- I see it a lot.


It might not be the case here. It is more that the breeder assumes as most do; Emerald being a Parblue mutation.
Breeder says: Emerald Blue - In fact it can be = Emerald /blue non Parblue mutation nor allelic.
Results differ a lot. so if their assumption is wrong they can not possibly see green or grey-green birds offspring.
It is as simple as that.

sheyd
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Re: white on white

Post by sheyd »

Ring0Neck wrote:Shey,
I don't like how some big name breeders use different names for the same mutations within their aviaries- it's like they're trying to hold onto their 'secrets' of their breeding program by confusing people- I see it a lot.


It might not be the case here. It is more that the breeder assumes as most do; Emerald being a Parblue mutation.
Breeder says: Emerald Blue - In fact it can be = Emerald /blue non Parblue mutation nor allelic.
Results differ a lot. so if their assumption is wrong they can not possibly see green or grey-green birds offspring.
It is as simple as that.

no, wasn't talking about the Emerald birds- more along the lines of their uses of Turquoise and 'pastel' and Cleartail, 'whwt, yhyt' ect, ect. I've also seen from a different breeder, 'lavendar' as well as Cinnamon Violet. It's a pet peeve of mine when they use multiple descriptions on their pages to describe the same mutation/s within their aviaries. that is all. :)

....
Since you've addressed Emerald and Parblue- would it be reasonable to think that Turquoise and Emerald could not exist in the one bird, IF Emerald was indeed a Parblue mutation?
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Re: white on white

Post by Johan S »

sheyd wrote:Since you've addressed Emerald and Parblue- would it be reasonable to think that Turquoise and Emerald could not exist in the one bird, IF Emerald was indeed a Parblue mutation?
If both are parblues of the same allele, they can still exist together in the same bird, but only one mutant gene of each.
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Re: white on white

Post by Johan S »

trabots wrote:That is why we need the DF SA Deep Blue to be bred, or has it been bred??
I agree, and also why I have been spending time to identify more breeders with these birds in their aviaries so as to have a larger base from which we can work. I am making good progress, as these birds are rather abundant in my area. There have been a couple of reports of DF birds, but I am yet to see one. By most accounts they are violet in phenotype, though. But, the proof is in the pudding. I'll wait for this season to look at some more breeding results. Can you believe it, it is almost that time of the year again. Only 3-4 months to go! :D

PS: Please remember to keep us updated on results of cobalt deep x blue breedings. Since you've shown no allelic interaction with violet, that is the result that has me most curious.
trabots
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Re: white on white

Post by trabots »

PS: Please remember to keep us updated on results of cobalt deep x blue breedings. Since you've shown no allelic interaction with violet, that is the result that has me most curious.
I have discussed this with Ron and he is going to do that pairing this year. I advised that he had images of Deep Cobalts and df Indigos on his website. Wondering why there was zero interest (comments)? He says the Deep Dark TurquoiseBlue is his best looking bird (in his eyes). I wouldn't argue.
Ring0Neck
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Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck »

Ron's website

http://fabulousparrots.com.au/photos.cfm
He says the Deep Dark TurquoiseBlue is his best looking bird (in his eyes).
Willy,
He does not have pics of that bird , only of Indigo Deep Cobalt. is that what you meant?
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Re: white on white

Post by Johan S »

trabots wrote:
PS: Please remember to keep us updated on results of cobalt deep x blue breedings. Since you've shown no allelic interaction with violet, that is the result that has me most curious.
I have discussed this with Ron and he is going to do that pairing this year. I advised that he had images of Deep Cobalts and df Indigos on his website. Wondering why there was zero interest (comments)? He says the Deep Dark TurquoiseBlue is his best looking bird (in his eyes). I wouldn't argue.
From the pics, I like the violet deep the best. And I'm wondering how close to saturation/mauvish deep dark violet would be.
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Re: white on white

Post by Carr.birds »

Willy

I like the indigoblue deep dark cock on Ron’s site. I have mentioned before that I believe this is the same phenotype breeders in Europe sell as violet blueturq. I own European “violet blueturq” birds and from these birds different “dark” phenotypes are produced.

Tienie
sheyd
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Re: white on white

Post by sheyd »

Johan S wrote:
sheyd wrote:Since you've addressed Emerald and Parblue- would it be reasonable to think that Turquoise and Emerald could not exist in the one bird, IF Emerald was indeed a Parblue mutation?
If both are parblues of the same allele, they can still exist together in the same bird, but only one mutant gene of each.

ah, okay thanks-

so an Emerald could be Turq as well- but would it show or be hidden?
trabots
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Re: white on white

Post by trabots »

Ring0Neck wrote:Ron's website

http://fabulousparrots.com.au/photos.cfm
He says the Deep Dark TurquoiseBlue is his best looking bird (in his eyes).
Willy,
He does not have pics of that bird , only of Indigo Deep Cobalt. is that what you meant?
Sorry, I mean't DF Deep IndigoBlue
trabots
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Re: white on white

Post by trabots »

trabots wrote:
Ring0Neck wrote:Ron's website

http://fabulousparrots.com.au/photos.cfm
He says the Deep Dark TurquoiseBlue is his best looking bird (in his eyes).
Willy,
He does not have pics of that bird , only of Indigo Deep Cobalt. is that what you meant?
Sorry, I mean't DF Deep IndigoBlue
I got up too early, I mean't Deep Dark IndigoBlue
trabots
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Re: white on white

Post by trabots »

Carr.birds wrote:Willy

I like the indigoblue deep dark cock on Ron’s site. I have mentioned before that I believe this is the same phenotype breeders in Europe sell as violet blueturq. I own European “violet blueturq” birds and from these birds different “dark” phenotypes are produced.

Tienie
I don't know why that bird could be confused for Violet, there are no violet tones apparent in Ron's Deep Dark Blues
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Re: white on white

Post by Johan S »

trabots wrote:
Carr.birds wrote:Willy

I like the indigoblue deep dark cock on Ron’s site. I have mentioned before that I believe this is the same phenotype breeders in Europe sell as violet blueturq. I own European “violet blueturq” birds and from these birds different “dark” phenotypes are produced.

Tienie
I don't know why that bird could be confused for Violet, there are no violet tones apparent in Ron's Deep Dark Blues
My personal feeling is because we have introduced confusion by calling the Nico Theunissen birds deep blues. When they are combined with dark, it does appear like a violet.

I also played a role in this, and therefore feel responsible towards trying to rectify the situation I advise people to take a cautious approach and not use the term deep or violet for that mutation until it is figured out. Unfortunately, there are already advertisements where guys are now selling deep without any reference to the difference of Oz deep. Also, in the last week had a couple of phone calls from guys all over the country calling these birds deep.

Time will tell towards a better understanding.
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Re: white on white

Post by Johan S »

sheyd wrote:
Johan S wrote:
sheyd wrote:Since you've addressed Emerald and Parblue- would it be reasonable to think that Turquoise and Emerald could not exist in the one bird, IF Emerald was indeed a Parblue mutation?
If both are parblues of the same allele, they can still exist together in the same bird, but only one mutant gene of each.

ah, okay thanks-

so an Emerald could be Turq as well- but would it show or be hidden?
Shay, I think this combination is where we will start seeing 'patchy' emeralds, but I have to point out I'm merely speculating. In theory, we should have the 'smooth' appearance of emerald present, as well as the 'patchy' psittacin of turquoise, so both should be visible and possibly clearly different under UV. In reality, I have no idea. There might be very interesting interactions happening and the bird could very well deviate from theory.
sheyd
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Re: white on white

Post by sheyd »

ah, okay thanks-

so an Emerald could be Turq as well- but would it show or be hidden?
Shay, I think this combination is where we will start seeing 'patchy' emeralds, but I have to point out I'm merely speculating. In theory, we should have the 'smooth' appearance of emerald present, as well as the 'patchy' psittacin of turquoise, so both should be visible and possibly clearly different under UV. In reality, I have no idea. There might be very interesting interactions happening and the bird could very well deviate from theory.
I had a bit of a search, and found one- would love to be able to watch it mature:
http://www.gtaviaries.com/#!4-sale/c1pww
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Re: white on white

Post by sheyd »

molossus wrote:Shey hi,
Is this the aviaries that bred the violet dom pied that had a prominent patch on one wing?
I wouldn't know sorry
Ring0Neck
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Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck »

Molossus,

Probably not, this breeder is about 1 hour away from where I am.

Look at this pic, it almost looks like a grey bird !

Image
madas
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Re: white on white

Post by madas »

Carr.birds wrote:Willy

I like the indigoblue deep dark cock on Ron’s site. I have mentioned before that I believe this is the same phenotype breeders in Europe sell as violet blueturq. I own European “violet blueturq” birds and from these birds different “dark” phenotypes are produced.

Tienie
Hi Tienie,

this is a german violet turqblue (or as Willy would say Indigo):

Image

madas
trabots
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Re: white on white

Post by trabots »

this is a german violet turqblue (or as Willy would say Indigo):
It IS IndigoBlue Madas, why call it something it isn't?

It is also not the same colour as Ron's Deep Dark IndigoBlue. That bird is blue, this bird is violet, I am talking colours here.
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Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck »

Anybody can show us a pic of a SF or DF Turquoise DF Violet & DF Dark ?
if not a DF Violet DF Dark ?

Thanks
Ring0Neck
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Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck »

I have a Cinnamon Dark or Deep Blue.
Hen was a deep dark blue x blue/cinn
I don't have a cinn dark to compare, although i will test pair her to a cobalt, let me know what you guys think.

http://parakeet.me/irn/f/cindy.jpg

Madas asked a few weeks ago if Indigoblue is darker then blue, i just made a compilation of
Indigoblue 2012 bred; a Cobalt (in the background) and a blue - the 2 pics used were taken today.
http://parakeet.me/irn/f/indi_dark_blue.jpg
trabots
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Re: white on white

Post by trabots »

I have a Cinnamon Dark or Deep Blue.
These pics are of one of Ron's Cinnamon Deep Blues. Same bird, big difference depending on the light.

[URL=http://s1305.photobucket.com/user/ ... .jpg[/img][/url]

[URL=http://s1305.photobucket.com/user/ ... .jpg[/img][/url]
Ring0Neck
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Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck »

Hi Willy,
Yes i know Ron's bird. If i remember correctly it was identified as Sl Edged Cinnamon Deep blue, look at the flight feathers, his has the edged & cinn markings while mine is just cinnamon.

Either way, i'm not about to guess if dark or deep, i will find out when she will breed for me.


keeskk16
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Re: white on white

Post by keeskk16 »

nice coloured birds
trabots
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Re: white on white

Post by trabots »

Ben, I speak to Ron almost every weak. He has no Edged birds that he has told me about, none on his website either. That is the first I have heard of any Edged in OZ. Can anyone post a pic of a proper Edged of any inheritance in plain Green or Blue?
sheyd
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Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2008 11:22 pm

Re: white on white

Post by sheyd »

it says on his (Ron's) website that, that Deep Blue Cinnamon is a SL Edged hen.

Ben, any chance of getting both (Indigoblue and Blue) in the one shot (and do you think one is darker than the other? Have heard somewhere that Turquoise somewhat darkens the base with some mutations- so makes sense that Indigo would do the same if the first holds true.
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