Update on Rise and Shine

Moderator: Mods

Post Reply
jenica1026
Posts: 35
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:06 am

Update on Rise and Shine

Post by jenica1026 »

Hi all,

I have been busy with life things and just thought I would give you an update on Rise and Shine as we are enjoying their antics.

Today as I was making a new drinking straw and clothes pin chain toy (I alternate sliding on pieces of drinking straw with tying on a half of a wooden clothes pin and after I get a chain of 2 feet long, I tie it together so it looks like a necklace and hang it on their play stands). Well, Rise kept flying around me (he is trying to make contact - he is not quite tame yet - and he has been flying and sitting near me every now and then. He and Shine don't sit together while they are out of their cage and even have had some fights so I am still watching to see if they need to be housed in different cages but thus far so good as long as they both have their side of the cage).

Anyway, as Rise had flown over near me, I held up the toy chain not quite finished yet and Rise flew over and sat on my hand (I was thrilled and he tried to pick up the chain to play with it but then decided to bite me several times - I told him no (he is learning that from sitting on our exercise machine handle and biting at that and I have said that several times and shoe him if necessary). So then I picked up the lower part of the chain tried to offer the toy to him but he still was looking for a way to bite me - either the hand he was sitting on the one with the piece of toy and then I remembered someone on a video saying to slightly womble my hand and it will get a bird off balance and stop thinking about biting - well, I did and he stopped but then he decided to fly after thinking about it for a second or two. But the good news is - I got to hold him - yeah!

We have had a couple of times where he has hopped on my head when I have gone over to the cage top to talk to him and Shine and he has picked at my hair and then either with me leaning down (very slowly to see him in the TV or to try to sit on the couch), he has flown. Oh, and Shine came and landed on the arm of the couch in an ackward position so I held out my hand and he stepped up and I got to talk to him a little more than normal before he flew. They both are looking like they would like to would like to fly over to us and certainly enjoy us talking to them as they cock their heads.

I can tell they are both working on their words "Hi", "Hi Shine", Hi Rise" and "Come on out" - I'm not sure how long before we hear really words - does anyone know how long it takes? Rise is still molting and his ring is not as well defined as Shine's is - Shine looks beautiful with his ring and all his feathers in place - oh, I have noticed blood feathers (I have heard about blood feathers but never seen these before) on Shine especially when he opens up his wings for his shower - he loves his shower!- lol! He will push Rise out of the way for more spritzing!

I just thought I would give an update on our boys if anyone likes to read can compare - especially with development of younger birds. Our boys were 2 years old in June and they are now getting their rings in. Rise is still hopping around and squawking unlike Shine and he growls at times but they both love these new times of toys with the drinking straws and clothes pins so they are busy little beavers - they remind me of beavers especially with all wood chips - lol! Jan
InTheAir
Posts: 2040
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:24 pm

Re: Update on Rise and Shine

Post by InTheAir »

Sounds like things are going well.

I am anti-adversives for parrot training. I have come to this for several reasons, which you might like to consider.
I want my parrots to know they have a safe perch on my hands. If I have an emergency and need to move my birds quickly, I use my hands.
I earnt Sapphire's trust by reading her body language and respecting it, so I don't want to let her down.
Parrots can bite when they feel threatened.
Parrots can decide a greatt way to get attention is to do whatever you tell them not to do. :lol:
From a training perspective, using adversive stimuli can lead you down the path of having to escalate the punishment to get a response. When the bird is no longer scared of you waving your hand at it to get it to stop doing something, what is the progression you have available?

When we got Sapphire she tried putting almost every part of the house and furniture in her beak, from fingers to the carpet. I can probably dig out some videos of her going around the living room taste testing everything she came across, it was so funny. She still does it to new objects and even Nila does to a lesser degree. I don't know if it is a recommended method, but I just let her nibble my fingers the first time she came into contact with them. I did have passionfruit all over my hands, so she was just trying to get it all. She didn't chew hands after that, I guess she figured they weren't that tasty.
Any object we don't want beaked gets covered or removed from the room. We put old phone books on the leather coverings of the pool table pockets, the birds can rip up the phone books as much as they like.

Just some food for thought.
jenica1026
Posts: 35
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:06 am

Re: Update on Rise and Shine

Post by jenica1026 »

Hi In the Air,

I have seen Peekaboo Parrot owner say "No" to Bowie when he was going to chew on her computer (perhaps she doesn't do this all the time and just did that on a video but he seemed to understand and stop) and so I thought it was something you could instill in a parrot so I thank you for telling me of some alternatives to stop Rise and Shine from chew on things. They have lots of toys but as Rise is deciding on having a relationship with me, he has, like I said, to sit places that I would not say are not bird friendly or bird proof.

Covering is a good idea as we have their cage on top of a bookcase that is 4' in height and I have put a towel between there cage and the bookcase and now they are hanging off the towel at times. I just told my husband the other day that was a good idea to put the towel (which drapes down the edge of the bookcase) because they could have chewed the edges of the bookcase otherwise.

We have floor lamps and Rise is flying over to the top (which is not turned on but it has a bulb in it so I will cover the top of this as well - not having children and baby proofing our home has not helped us to see what things could be a problem for them (and us). We have 10 PVC play stands on 2 cage tops and another bookcase with like I said plenty of toys for them and other than trying to sit by me, they have been content to sit on or fly to a play stand and play - which they do most of the day. Right now they are pulling pieces of straw and paper out of a bird foraging toy. To me this guys are like cats - they are sooo curious!

Since I am not picking up our guys - the incident I shared of him flying over to my hand while I was making his toy and then him biting me and it was not the bite when they test you hand to step up it was harder than that and he continued to do that - how do you handle those bites and suggest he stop it that? The previous owner would grab the Rise and Shine (I have not done this - like I am saying they come out and climb up their cage (or fly if they like) to the play stands and when I need to put them back in the cage, during the day, I take the play stand they are on and transport it to their cage door and lean it down slowly is need be and they hop in - if they fly to another stand, I just continue to do this process and lately, they know where they are going, I guess, and I haven't had to play musical play stands - lol! At night, I feed them before bed and they just naturally go to their cage for their food (they have food all day, I just replenish it and give them a peanut or two))

So how can I get him not to bite me - are you saying passion fruit is a bad taste to the birds? Thanks for your help. Jan

PS When I wombled my hand, I was tilted it slightly as it did not take much for him to stop and he did stay on my hand afterwards but giving he is not tame to me, he just flew off because this was the longest that I have had him on my hand - the only other times have been when they would fly (wings clipped) and fly to the floor and I would give them my hand to get off the floor and then once they were up, they would fly from me.
MissK
Posts: 3011
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2012 3:46 pm
Location: Baltimore, Maryland, U.S.A.

Re: Update on Rise and Shine

Post by MissK »

Hi. I also think you should try to lay low on the hand wobble. I confess I do use it, myself, on rare occasion. However, my bird and I are farther along in our relationship and it is infrequent at best. There are some strategies you can use instead, and you can also learn to predict, and so head off, any excess nibble or bite.

I have learned that Rocky needs something to hold his interest on the hand (wrist, actually) or he will nibble my skin. If I indulge him with that he will get carried away, so I distract him. I use toys and food. A different person might use trick training. As long as he isn't getting overfocussed on nibbling there is no need to interrupt him with a wobble. Because, as noted, we have some more time under our collective belt, I can also pass him off to his cage if it looks like he's going to get into biting trouble.

I feel distracting with treats, toys, or training, or passing him off the hand, are superior techniques for handling this kind of biting. I can also confirm that the slightest wobble used to send him flying, but now it only distracts him a little, so if you rely on the hand wobble you will, as InTheAir suggested, in time be looking to up the ante because a wobble will lose it's value. If you're really cursed, your bird might come to regard it as a fun ride and learn how to make you produce that.

The person who told you to grab your birds gave you really bad advice, in my opinion. My advice (which I naturally feel is better :wink: ) is to NOT grab your bird unless you are trying to save it from a worse physical danger. Just my 2 cents there.
-MissK
jenica1026
Posts: 35
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:06 am

Re: Update on Rise and Shine

Post by jenica1026 »

Hi MissK,

I'm glad I gave you all an update on Rise and Shine as I don't want to create a bigger monster than I have - either biting or wanting a wilder ride, etc. It goes to show that you can't (once again) believe everything you read or see on the Internet.

I don't grab Rise or Shine even if they when they were on the floor (we have 4 miniature dachshunds) and thankfully they have accepted my hand. I just was trying to show you that they have had this done and I am trying to win their trust by calm consistency and not grabbing - I am sure this is part of the reason they don't like hands and want to bite me.

I was trying to distract Rise yesterday with the toy I was making and then even though he took a piece of the toy and started to play, he saw my other hand and decided perhaps that was something he wanted to bite. That's about the time the wobble came into play when he was sitting my hand biting me and trying to bite my other hand as well. It does scare me a bit to let him bite hard on me and possibly draw blood as he has done this before.

The only time I have grabbed him was as you said for danger - he had flown into the kitchen where I have old dish water in the sink for that morning's dish washing and he landed in it. I was fearful of soapy water on his feathers and him preening so I immediately ran some water and rinsed him off. I am sure that was traumatic for him but as I said I didn't want him hurt by the soap. He was very good for me as I rinsed him off and I haven't tried to handle him since. How long is a bird's memory - does anyone know? He is trying to befriend me so I hope this is a good sign of forgetting the incident.

Well, I am glad of all our collective years with IRNs and your willingness to share so I have covered up the exercise machine (well where he sits) and won't wobble my hand but I think giving him food or a toy, might also encourage biting as why not bite for something good - it beats yelling - lol! I guess I will just have to take my bites as they come - Lord help me. Jan
MissK
Posts: 3011
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2012 3:46 pm
Location: Baltimore, Maryland, U.S.A.

Re: Update on Rise and Shine

Post by MissK »

Hi again. :P

See if you can't figure out what treat or toy will work to distract, and offer it *before* the bite. You definitely can learn to predict the bite, and so you can offer some fun that is not compatible with biting.

Consider it this way: You are sitting in the park with your diabetic friend. You notice her looking at the ice cream truck. You know what comes right after looking at the ice cream truck- it's reaching for your cash and buying ice cream. You don't want your friend to do that, so you make some remark that cannot be ignored, like "I'm thinking of getting a leprechaun tattooed right here." Probably, this would interrupt the ice cream chain of events by distracting your friend, It would not reward seeking ice cream; it would replace it.

I also strongly urge you to NOT allow yourself to be bitten. You don't want any kind of behaviour pattern to emerge there. Once you are successful dodging, blocking, or distracting you may gain some confidence that you are skilled at keeping safe and no longer fear the bite.
-MissK
InTheAir
Posts: 2040
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:24 pm

Re: Update on Rise and Shine

Post by InTheAir »

Hi Jan,
I think I might have written some of the same stuff as missk.

We aren't saying that hand wobbling doesn't work to stop the biting right then, but there are much nicer ways to work with birds and using punishment based methods can have pit falls.
I don't know anything about peekaboo parrots training methods or skill as a trainer. There seems to be an awful lot of bad training advice on YouTube. I was trying to find a good video of how to teach a parrot to step up the other day and almost every video i watched was relying on a degree of coercion. I'm sure there are some good videos on there, but they are hard to come by. I recommend Barbara Heidenreich (goodbird inc) and Feathered Antics on YouTube. I don't spend much time watching videos, I prefer to read.
Speaking of reading, I have created a thread of links to good parrot resources on here. It is called 'recommend reading for parrot owners' or something like that.

My birds love passionfruit!

I haven't had vast experience with biting, I only have 2 birds and there is usually a pretty clear reason if one of them bites me and it doesn't come without warnings.

I wrote a story on another thread about an example of Sapphire being aggressive towards my boyfriend when he uncovered the cage. I can't remember what thread. Basically, by feeding her treats at short intervals while he uncovers the cage, she now sits on a perch looking expectantly at him (and holds her mouth open to show she wants a treat when he looks at her). All we did was give her treats, we didn't even wait for her to stop lunging at him before offering them and she decided that to change the way she approached him on her own. In this case just offering her something she likes eating was enough to completely change her view of Dave moving her cage cover around. She now wants him near her cage because it means she might get goodies. I found that a really interesting little experiment.

If biting your hand is a predictable behaviour that occurs when the bird is on your hand, give the bird a treat as so as he steps up before he has time to decide to bite you. I think Missk has had some experience blocking bites with goodies. I'm sure she will have some ideas for you.

I also used distraction and food rewards to teach her not to chew the zip of my bfs jacket yesterday and not to chew socks when I'm wearing them. The jacket zipper was quite hard work as she has been allowed to chew it a lot, it will probably take more practise before he can safely wear that jacket around her.
Post Reply