Hi all
Does anyone know 100% what the difference,s are in these two birds??
Is a sapphire just a darker blue here in australia or actually a cobalt.
Is the gene pool the same?
Thanks
European Cobalt and Sapphire
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Coastal-Birds
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I have heard rumours about this european cobalt etc, but I have not seen any proof of it... I think sellers are honestly trying to 'talk up' their blood lines to try and sell theirs, as there are now a fair few breeders with cobalts and especially violets now.
I have yet to see a cobaltblue look much different from any other cobaltblue. Photo's are a joke, as in certain lighting I can get one of my normal blue birds to appear like a cobalt... so you have to be careful about 'cobalts and european cobalts' stories.
There is no saphire colour to my knowledge, just another breeders name for something.
There are better bloodlines of birds than others, but this generally has nothing to do with 'euorpean cobalt or other'. You have not been able to import these things, so I find it strange just in the last year that this term as cropped up.
Alot of breeders make up names and stories... so just be vigilant.
dark violet Blue (ie, put a cobalt with a violet blue bird, and you can have the chance of a cobalt violet blue bird) is often given weird names, as people are too lazy to say the mutations in the bird...
Cobalt is not an actual mutation... its the term given to blue birds with the dark gene. The dark gene has been called several things before depending on the base colour of the bird its in but is widely refered to as cobalt.
I have yet to visit or see in person any proof of this 'european' cobalt, and would really suggest some care when buying overpriced cobalts with this name.
I have found a key problem as to why people talk up violet and cobalt alot more than they should, and come up with all sorts of stories about purity and special tones of colour... the mutations are the most easy mutations to work with.
Put a cobalt with a blue, and 50% of young are cobalt. Put a violet with a blue, 50% young are violet. Of course, you can imagine breeders being angry as spending a fortune on a cobalt, and in just a few years they start to drop... violets used to cost (2 years ago) easily 1-1.5k ea for good birds... now... lol you can get good violet hens for $500
Cleartail and clearheaded mutations are hard to work with, hence why splits are cheap, but full coloured birds are costly as anything (2-3k a bird for coloured... $500-700 for splits). But mutations like violet and cobalt are destined to drop in price. Some breeders dont like that.
Note: I am not saying a specific gene pool from another country has this european cobalt, just that I cant see how its only just become noticable in certain lines in Australia in that its only just(?) recently being called up to the line.
I have yet to see a cobaltblue look much different from any other cobaltblue. Photo's are a joke, as in certain lighting I can get one of my normal blue birds to appear like a cobalt... so you have to be careful about 'cobalts and european cobalts' stories.
There is no saphire colour to my knowledge, just another breeders name for something.
There are better bloodlines of birds than others, but this generally has nothing to do with 'euorpean cobalt or other'. You have not been able to import these things, so I find it strange just in the last year that this term as cropped up.
Alot of breeders make up names and stories... so just be vigilant.
dark violet Blue (ie, put a cobalt with a violet blue bird, and you can have the chance of a cobalt violet blue bird) is often given weird names, as people are too lazy to say the mutations in the bird...
Cobalt is not an actual mutation... its the term given to blue birds with the dark gene. The dark gene has been called several things before depending on the base colour of the bird its in but is widely refered to as cobalt.
I have yet to visit or see in person any proof of this 'european' cobalt, and would really suggest some care when buying overpriced cobalts with this name.
I have found a key problem as to why people talk up violet and cobalt alot more than they should, and come up with all sorts of stories about purity and special tones of colour... the mutations are the most easy mutations to work with.
Put a cobalt with a blue, and 50% of young are cobalt. Put a violet with a blue, 50% young are violet. Of course, you can imagine breeders being angry as spending a fortune on a cobalt, and in just a few years they start to drop... violets used to cost (2 years ago) easily 1-1.5k ea for good birds... now... lol you can get good violet hens for $500
Cleartail and clearheaded mutations are hard to work with, hence why splits are cheap, but full coloured birds are costly as anything (2-3k a bird for coloured... $500-700 for splits). But mutations like violet and cobalt are destined to drop in price. Some breeders dont like that.
Note: I am not saying a specific gene pool from another country has this european cobalt, just that I cant see how its only just become noticable in certain lines in Australia in that its only just(?) recently being called up to the line.
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Coastal-Birds
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- Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2009 4:54 am
- Location: N.S.W Central Coast
Ok so far as sapphire and cobalt being 2 different birds that is not the case.
I was checking to see if this so called sapphire was indeed another birds not known to me as i have 2 cobalts and the cock i have with a dark green split blue hen.So with that ill get cobalts ,blue ,dark green/blue and true olives in the highest outcomes of colours .Also low % rate of a mauve ,green/blue and dark green/blue type 2 birdswith this breeding from what i work out
I was checking to see if this so called sapphire was indeed another birds not known to me as i have 2 cobalts and the cock i have with a dark green split blue hen.So with that ill get cobalts ,blue ,dark green/blue and true olives in the highest outcomes of colours .Also low % rate of a mauve ,green/blue and dark green/blue type 2 birdswith this breeding from what i work out
The Dark factor is said to have originated in Europe ... either Belgium or Holland. So here in the US, some breeders had used the term European Cobalt to differentiate the Dark Blue from the American Violet. Some breeders here also use the term American Cobalt for the American Violet mutation.
Just another issue of semantics.
No such IRN mutation as Sapphire to my knowledge.
Just another issue of semantics.
No such IRN mutation as Sapphire to my knowledge.
Jay
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Jay wrote:The Dark factor is said to have originated in Europe ... either Belgium or Holland. So here in the US, some breeders had used the term European Cobalt to differentiate the Dark Blue from the American Violet.
Just another issue of semantics.
No such IRN mutation as Sapphire to my knowledge.
To my knowledge and i know breeders with the 2 bloodlines of the cobalts.
1. being European Cobalt - as Jay said, original Cobalt (blue + darkFactor)
2. Sapphire = AKA Australian Cobalt -
I have seen the DF (Mauve) of the 2 bloodlines
1. Original Cobalt - Greyish with tinge of blue...as we know it
2. Aust. Cobalt - DF is more blueish then the other, SF is lighter then European Cobalt
I think that the Aust. Cobalt is a mutation/modification of Cobalt and more research should be done
I have pics of the 2 DF type Mouves if interested, also i agree with Fah as light/quality of photos can make a bird look different then it actually looks.
** Breeder of European Cobalts lives in Sydney, i believe he was the first with Cobalts in OZland
Anyone with more info or opinions please do reply.
Can you post pics of these two birds at all? (then again, unless same lighting condition, the pics are relatively useless to use as a guide... i can make a normal blue irn look violet or cobalt in the right lighting lol).
So far I have yet to see a difference in these birds despite what people claim... 99% of the claims are made by people trying to sell them...
I have yet to see / hear of a true situation amongst any of the Australian breeding circles that I know of.
Here in Australia every second breeder of violets is desperately trying to hold onto some false value of their birds by claiming 'dark factor violet' or 'deep purple, more than normal' lol
This is what happens when a mutation that starts out rare, that is incredible easy to breed (inheritance is the most simple and easy to work with) and people realise they spent alot of money on something that rapidly suffers a price drop.
It will all settle soon enough, and people will accept violet as a far more common bird than they like to think :/
Cobalt is starting to go through this change, slower however as demand isnt as high.
I think like most things, unless conclusive proof is shown (birds side by side etc) or a very public established figure in the bird community can base their repuation behind it, it will remain conjecture.
So far I have yet to see a difference in these birds despite what people claim... 99% of the claims are made by people trying to sell them...
I have yet to see / hear of a true situation amongst any of the Australian breeding circles that I know of.
Here in Australia every second breeder of violets is desperately trying to hold onto some false value of their birds by claiming 'dark factor violet' or 'deep purple, more than normal' lol
This is what happens when a mutation that starts out rare, that is incredible easy to breed (inheritance is the most simple and easy to work with) and people realise they spent alot of money on something that rapidly suffers a price drop.
It will all settle soon enough, and people will accept violet as a far more common bird than they like to think :/
Cobalt is starting to go through this change, slower however as demand isnt as high.
I think like most things, unless conclusive proof is shown (birds side by side etc) or a very public established figure in the bird community can base their repuation behind it, it will remain conjecture.
Fah,Fah wrote:Can you post pics of these two birds at all?
So far I have yet to see a difference in these birds despite what people claim... 99% of the claims are made by people trying to sell them...
I have yet to see / hear of a true situation amongst any of the Australian breeding circles that I know of.
Cobalt is starting to go through this change, slower however as demand isnt as high.
I think like most things, unless conclusive proof is shown (birds side by side etc) or a very public established figure in the bird community can base their repuation behind it, it will remain conjecture.
It is an interesting subject indeed, and i like your attitude, guilty till proven innocent, lol.
As far as sapphire, there is quiet a few breeders in certain states that have them.
I will post the pics but i will remove them later as i have not asked for permission from these breeders to put them up on a forum.
It seems that your circle of breeders is different to ones i know. I asked you about J Smith, when we talked about Opalines, he wrote the book " A guide to Asiatic Parrots" he has opalines
Pictures to follow.
I only wish we could gather the breeders and compare live these two cobalt bloodlines and discuss more about it.
BTW : These birds were not for sale
European Cobalt DF - MAUVE
So called Sapphire DF - MAUVE
** We should NOT draw any definite conclusions from these pictures - i hate comparing birds from pics, as we all agree.
BTW : These birds were not for sale
European Cobalt DF - MAUVE
So called Sapphire DF - MAUVE
** We should NOT draw any definite conclusions from these pictures - i hate comparing birds from pics, as we all agree.
Fah,Fah wrote: Here in Australia every second breeder of violets is desperately trying to hold onto some false value of their birds by claiming 'dark factor violet' or 'deep purple, more than normal' lol
Firstly i agree with your statement.
However... 08 breeding season as most breeders had an abundance of violet been bred.
We have a breeder that does hand raising and about 4 breeders all up had violet young hand raised by this breeder.
Interesting to note that while we had about 5-6 diff bloodlines there, when you had all violet chicks together i can tell you that all looked different shades of violet.
Some of them we had to take outside and compare in normal light against a blue and against another violet. it was in fact a violet .
This is fact, and so it raises the Question: WHY?
All violets were pure violets no pallids, whwt, buttercups etc....
I find it cute that one reference to one person constitutes much of any worth lol
Sadly my conditioning in the Australian market of disbelieving most of what people say without some form of proof, is that quite often after visiting their aviaries, they are nothing more than the standard of what they should be. Yes, changes do happen, but peoples word isnt worth much when it comes to exchanging money in many cases.
But yes I do find it rather curious the amount of variety there seems to be in recent times as to colourations. Also curious about what happens with a blend of the two. Whether one is dominant over another, or a smooth blend between them or a mixture of both.
Also interesting how the back pic (the last one) the feathers on the back of the bird extend (fade) into white, but the wing feathers extend into a darker form (diet possible? or a trait?).
Sadly my conditioning in the Australian market of disbelieving most of what people say without some form of proof, is that quite often after visiting their aviaries, they are nothing more than the standard of what they should be. Yes, changes do happen, but peoples word isnt worth much when it comes to exchanging money in many cases.
But yes I do find it rather curious the amount of variety there seems to be in recent times as to colourations. Also curious about what happens with a blend of the two. Whether one is dominant over another, or a smooth blend between them or a mixture of both.
Also interesting how the back pic (the last one) the feathers on the back of the bird extend (fade) into white, but the wing feathers extend into a darker form (diet possible? or a trait?).
Ring0Neck wrote:
Interesting to note that while we had about 5-6 diff bloodlines there, when you had all violet chicks together i can tell you that all looked different shades of violet.
Some of them we had to take outside and compare in normal light against a blue and against another violet. it was in fact a violet .
This is fact, and so it raises the Question: WHY?
There is only one known original Violet bloodline (bred by Gordon Hayes from San Pedro, California)... the offsprings of which were sold for over $50,000 apiece the first time he placed them on the market.
However, if you mix this original Violet gene with the many different shades of Blue birds the world over, then of course you will get different shades of Violet. The Violet color as we see it (and Cobalt for that matter) is not just the act of the Violet mutation alone. The accompanying Blue gene plays a huge role in the final phenotype.
Green birds come in different shades, so does Turquoise and Grey... so why not Violet and Cobalt? The final phenotype of any bird is usually not the result of just one or two color genes.. a handful of inheritable modifiers are also involved.
I've bred dozens of Violets and the "Sapphire" bird looks just like one of them. It doesn't appear unique to me.
Jay
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Jay, Your take on different shades to a particular color eg. violet is very true and explained most accurateJay wrote: The accompanying Blue gene plays a huge role in the final phenotype.
The final phenotype of any bird is usually not the result of just one or two color genes.. a handful of inheritable modifiers are also involved.
I've bred dozens of Violets and the "Sapphire" bird looks just like one of them. It doesn't appear unique to me.
Re: Sapphire. It does not look unique...but the fact that it is a double factor bird of a dark factor + blue bird, it makes it an interesting result as opposed to a mauve colored bird.
I know that you mean to say, the bird in the pic looks like a violet but with slight changes in color.
These birds are not 1 off a single clutch but rather of multiple clutches bred by many breeders over many years.
I endeavor to look further into this and get more facts to this sapphire bird, including pics of parents and bloodline down to the dark-green birds.
I agree that we should not just assume, yep another mutation is out there without 100% proof, far from it, but the fact that these birds are bred here in OZ should be looked into.
Re: European Cobalt and Sapphire
Let's talk Deep Blues.
These birds are bred here in OzLand by a few breeders.
Although single factor birds are darker then European Cobolt
in DF: Double Factor Deep Blue is still blue based color as opposed to Greyish with blue tinge known as Mauve.
Intrestingly, i have read on another Forum that M. from Qld Au has paired a DF Deep Blue to a DF European Cobolt (Mauve)
Result
They bred Mauves 
Does anyone know more about this?
Any takers as to what is to be concluded ?
Deep blue i understand that sells at about 30% premium over the counterpart EU Cobolt
If they are indeed one and the same mutation, then how do we explain the distinctive color differences in both SF & DF birds?
Could it be that another mutation/modifier is responsible for this modification? a co-dominant with dark-factor +- blue?,
If so, i understand that blue birds bred from Deep Blue look normal blue. Does the blue carry the "invisible" mutation/modifier?
If the blue is paired to a EU Cobolt, will it produce Deep Blues?
Sidenote: Same or not if i want to add cobolt to my, say ... pied mutation, be sure that i would want Deep Blue over Cobolt since it is darker and in DF (double factor) i can still tell that it is a blue bird and nicer/ deeper darker coloring. It is the same bird might as well choose the better looking one.
All comments welcome.
These birds are bred here in OzLand by a few breeders.
Although single factor birds are darker then European Cobolt
in DF: Double Factor Deep Blue is still blue based color as opposed to Greyish with blue tinge known as Mauve.
Intrestingly, i have read on another Forum that M. from Qld Au has paired a DF Deep Blue to a DF European Cobolt (Mauve)
Result
They bred Mauves Does anyone know more about this?
Any takers as to what is to be concluded ?
Deep blue i understand that sells at about 30% premium over the counterpart EU Cobolt
If they are indeed one and the same mutation, then how do we explain the distinctive color differences in both SF & DF birds?
Could it be that another mutation/modifier is responsible for this modification? a co-dominant with dark-factor +- blue?,
If so, i understand that blue birds bred from Deep Blue look normal blue. Does the blue carry the "invisible" mutation/modifier?
If the blue is paired to a EU Cobolt, will it produce Deep Blues?
Sidenote: Same or not if i want to add cobolt to my, say ... pied mutation, be sure that i would want Deep Blue over Cobolt since it is darker and in DF (double factor) i can still tell that it is a blue bird and nicer/ deeper darker coloring. It is the same bird might as well choose the better looking one.
All comments welcome.
Last edited by Ring0Neck on Wed Oct 10, 2012 9:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: European Cobalt and Sapphire
Hi Ring0Neck, you made some interesting comments.Ring0Neck wrote:
Although single factor birds are darker then European Cobolt
Intrestingly, i have read on another Forum that M. from Qld Au has paired a DF Deep Blue to a DF European Cobolt (Mauve)
Result
1) From the pictures I have seen, and some comments made by Aus breeders on other sites, I was under the impression that the 'deep' blue was a shade lighter than the European cobalt. That has always made sense to me, in that, a DF bird would then still not be structurally modified sufficiently to change the feather structure completely in the way it absorbs/reflects light. If what you are saying is true, I am at a total loss at why DF birds aren't mauve as well. If you have a look at some really dark violet strains, in DF they tend to become mostly mauve as well.
2) I'm very surprise that it bred mauve phenotypes. I was expecting very dark blue birds!
You don't have some pictures, perhaps?PS: There are already some 'deep' birds in Europe and South Africa as well.
Re: European Cobalt and Sapphire
Molossus
you said: what if the mauve masks deep blue?
It can not be the case with that pair, if you read again above, it says 2 DF birds (one dark one deep ) bred Df young call it Mauve but it could be DF deep blue.
A mauve can not breed mauves unless the other bird is dark factor as well.
Breeding results from that pair tells us that the 2 types act like one and the same when bred together,
Unlike putting a dark factor bird to a violet, it'll simply combine the colors.
I suspect a co-dominant modifier of some sort... no evidence pure speculation..
Johan,
I don't own any deep blue, but i know a breeder that i visited personally and he has 100+ pics on his site.
Have a look.
You'll find his mutation naming as: Dark when he refers to dark-factor , cobolts mauves
His site: http://www.fabulousparrots.com.au/photos.cfm
Check out this pic from his site: I can not vouch that the bird is what he says but he reckons he has indigo, deep and dark in one bird..
this bird alone being called deep blue & Cobolt is contrary to the pair breeding result mentioned above,
if it is one and the same mutation then It can easily be a DF dark bird + Blue + Indigo
Breeding results from this bird would be very intresting and perhaps help clarify a bit its genetics makeup
This subject is rather confusing.. yes, Recio or other experts in genetics could theorize the posibilities...
you said: what if the mauve masks deep blue?
It can not be the case with that pair, if you read again above, it says 2 DF birds (one dark one deep ) bred Df young call it Mauve but it could be DF deep blue.
A mauve can not breed mauves unless the other bird is dark factor as well.
Breeding results from that pair tells us that the 2 types act like one and the same when bred together,
Unlike putting a dark factor bird to a violet, it'll simply combine the colors.
I suspect a co-dominant modifier of some sort... no evidence pure speculation..
Johan,
I don't own any deep blue, but i know a breeder that i visited personally and he has 100+ pics on his site.
Have a look.
You'll find his mutation naming as: Dark when he refers to dark-factor , cobolts mauves
His site: http://www.fabulousparrots.com.au/photos.cfm
Check out this pic from his site: I can not vouch that the bird is what he says but he reckons he has indigo, deep and dark in one bird..
this bird alone being called deep blue & Cobolt is contrary to the pair breeding result mentioned above,
if it is one and the same mutation then It can easily be a DF dark bird + Blue + Indigo
Breeding results from this bird would be very intresting and perhaps help clarify a bit its genetics makeup
This subject is rather confusing.. yes, Recio or other experts in genetics could theorize the posibilities...
Re: European Cobalt and Sapphire
Hi Ring0,
I'm glad this topic is getting some attention again. I had a look at that website, and I still think that the deep is a lighter bird than the European cobalt. Have a look for example at the deep blue / pallid cock to the violet blue pallid hen. To my eyes it seems lighter than my cobalts.
There is a picture of deep violet blue & deep blue chicks. Would love to see a picture of the two parents together, as the deep violet combination would be very interesting.
I'm glad this topic is getting some attention again. I had a look at that website, and I still think that the deep is a lighter bird than the European cobalt. Have a look for example at the deep blue / pallid cock to the violet blue pallid hen. To my eyes it seems lighter than my cobalts.
There is a picture of deep violet blue & deep blue chicks. Would love to see a picture of the two parents together, as the deep violet combination would be very interesting.
Re: European Cobalt and Sapphire
It looks like he did pair up a pair that we would be intrested to finding out the offspring of ..
See picture .. DF Dark Blue Hen (Mauve) (left) DF Deep Blue Cock (Right)
Yes, violet deep blue looks great doesn't it?
See picture .. DF Dark Blue Hen (Mauve) (left) DF Deep Blue Cock (Right)
Yes, violet deep blue looks great doesn't it?
Re: European Cobalt and Sapphire
They don't show a "greyish" phenotype (source: Willy).Johan S wrote: 2) I'm very surprise that it bred mauve phenotypes. I was expecting very dark blue birds!
madas
Re: European Cobalt and Sapphire
That's why I was surprised... 
I think the breeders that ended up with the mauve chicks tested a different mutation from Willy.
I think the breeders that ended up with the mauve chicks tested a different mutation from Willy.
Re: European Cobalt and Sapphire
This is SO interesting to me! I've had my guy for a few days now and am desperately trying to figure out his colouring (I say he even though he's only 3-4 months old)
I've not yet been a member of the site for long enough to post photos of him so I'll describe him as best I can and when I can post pictures I will.
He's primarily a light blue colour, his belly, cheeks, under his bottom etc but then on his wings he has a darker blue/grey colouring with olive tinges shaddowing his winds and the very top of his head. He has very light pink feet and nails, his eyes are the lightest blue/grey colour and his beak is very light pink/peach. Similar to the photos RingONeck posted, but he's very light blue... He's definitely a very interesting colour!!
I've not yet been a member of the site for long enough to post photos of him so I'll describe him as best I can and when I can post pictures I will.
He's primarily a light blue colour, his belly, cheeks, under his bottom etc but then on his wings he has a darker blue/grey colouring with olive tinges shaddowing his winds and the very top of his head. He has very light pink feet and nails, his eyes are the lightest blue/grey colour and his beak is very light pink/peach. Similar to the photos RingONeck posted, but he's very light blue... He's definitely a very interesting colour!!
Sarah Xx