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What am i? (again)

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madas
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What am i? (again)

Post by madas » Wed Jun 18, 2014 2:57 am

Hi,

a friend of mine breed three unusual birds this season. From his breeding records they couldn't be what they look like (means Pallid). But see on your own:

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

So what phenotype could they express other then pallid??? I like to hear some opinions before i publish the make ups of the parents. :)

greetings.

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Re: What am i? (again)

Post by Johan S » Wed Jun 18, 2014 4:00 am

They only other option is that they could possibly be fallows. :idea: Why do you say they aren't what they appear? Were they bred from black eyed parents and some of the offspring are male? The offspring looks female to me.

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Re: What am i? (again)

Post by madas » Wed Jun 18, 2014 6:02 am

Johan S wrote:They only other option is that they could possibly be fallows. :idea: Why do you say they aren't what they appear? Were they bred from black eyed parents and some of the offspring are male? The offspring looks female to me.
Yeah both parents of each pair (two distinct pairs) are black eyed birds from SL Edged lines. Fathers are split for ino or possible split for ino. Breeder is 100% sure not split for pallid. I only know one combo which "could" fit this phenotype beside a fallow but until now i haven't seen such a combo in ringnecks. :(

For my knowledge the youngsters haven't been DNAed until now. But i will ask.

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Re: What am i? (again)

Post by Johan S » Wed Jun 18, 2014 6:39 am

My personal opinion is that there is no cause to suspect anything other than our typical SL recessive mutations (here pallid or cinnamon) until there is definite male offspring. The first bird is 50/50, but the other ones are females (I'm 90% sure). Because of the very clear heads, I'm sticking with pallid until there is a male. :D

However, in the spirit of the game, out of the box thinking would put me on PallidCinnamon crossover or if they have black eyes, possibly pastel. Or a different fallow type from what we know as bronze fallow (incorrectly most likely).

PS: how is the breeder sure no pallid is involved? Did he test for this by using other pallids, or is he going on "no pallids ever bred out of these birds".

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Re: What am i? (again)

Post by madas » Wed Jun 18, 2014 6:56 am

Johan S wrote: PS: how is the breeder sure no pallid is involved? Did he test for this by using other pallids, or is he going on "no pallids ever bred out of these birds".
Because one of the fathers is for sure split for lutino so can't be split for pallid. The other is possible split for lutino because his father was sure split for Lutino.
In both breeding lines there wasn't any pallid offspring over three generations. :(

So here are the males: Misty SL Edged IndigoBlue Grey /Cinnamon /Lutino and the other is SL Edged turqBlue /Cinnamon /Lutino?

I agree the offspring birds should be females and taking cinnamon and lutino into account do you think they are Cinnamon-Lutino crossovers?

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Re: What am i? (again)

Post by Recio » Wed Jun 18, 2014 10:56 am

Hi Madas,

It seems that both males are brothers ... Do you know in each one which sex linked mutations are linked? Possibilities:
1. Lutino and cinnamon linked.
2. Lutino and SL edge linked.
3. Cinnamon and SL edge linked.
4. Lutino, cinnamon and SL edge linked, all of them together in the same chromossome.

I think that the pallid like effect could depend on one of the above combinations, showing a very low level of melanin, coupled to a structural mutation (grey and/or misty). It would be great to know the other siblings and the mothers genotypes.

Regards

Recio

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Re: What am i? (again)

Post by Ring0Neck » Wed Jun 18, 2014 11:20 am

Very interesting disc.
madas wrote: So here are the males: Misty SL Edged IndigoBlue Grey /Cinnamon /Lutino ...
was this male paired to a green series hen?
wondering if the opaline grey-green we see in below pic might be from the same parents?


Image
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Re: What am i? (again)

Post by madas » Wed Jun 18, 2014 12:25 pm

Ring0Neck wrote:
madas wrote: So here are the males: Misty SL Edged IndigoBlue Grey /Cinnamon /Lutino ...
was this male paired to a green series hen?
wondering if the opaline grey-green we see in below pic might be from the same parents?
Good eyes my friend. ;)

The Misty SL Edged(sf) indigoBlue Grey /cinnamon /lutino was paired to a opaline greygreen /blue. :D
And the SL Edged(sf) turqBlue /cinnamon /lutino? to a SL Edged Misty cinnamon Grey Blue.

@Recio: I think SL Edged and cinnamon are linked (btw: we still have no correct info regarding the crossover rate between Sl Edged and Cinnamon). So maybe the youngsters are SL Edged-cinnamon-lutino. But as you know the crossover rate between cinnamon and lutino is very low for a normal green double split x normal. If you add all the other mutations it isn't getting higher. :D

One of the familys:

Image

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Re: What am i? (again)

Post by Johan S » Wed Jun 18, 2014 1:40 pm

madas wrote:@Recio: I think SL Edged and cinnamon are linked (btw: we still have no correct info regarding the crossover rate between Sl Edged and Cinnamon). So maybe the youngsters are SL Edged-cinnamon-lutino. But as you know the crossover rate between cinnamon and lutino is very low for a normal green double split x normal. If you add all the other mutations it isn't getting higher. :D
Madas, I have a feeling the first bird, the Misty SL Edged IndigoBlue Grey/ino/cinnamon is already the one where the crossover for ino and cinnamon successfully occurred. So then his offspring, the SL Edged turqBlue/Cinnamon/ino would be crossed over as well most likely. It would explain why both cocks produce similar phenotypes. The interesting thing is, then we have a good chance of one or both being tripple crossovers with SL edged in the mix as well.

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Re: What am i? (again)

Post by Recio » Wed Jun 18, 2014 2:25 pm

Ring0Neck wrote:Very interesting disc.
madas wrote: So here are the males: Misty SL Edged IndigoBlue Grey /Cinnamon /Lutino ...
was this male paired to a green series hen?
wondering if the opaline grey-green we see in below pic might be from the same parents?


Image
... is this bird really an Opaline Grey Green? Where is the psittacin? Am I missing anything?

Regards

Recio

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Re: What am i? (again)

Post by Skyes_crew » Wed Jun 18, 2014 7:38 pm

Recio...tail in top left corner.
I am owned by my birds...and I wouldn't have it any other way :D

Image

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Re: What am i? (again)

Post by madas » Wed Jun 18, 2014 10:34 pm

Johan S wrote:
madas wrote:@Recio: I think SL Edged and cinnamon are linked (btw: we still have no correct info regarding the crossover rate between Sl Edged and Cinnamon). So maybe the youngsters are SL Edged-cinnamon-lutino. But as you know the crossover rate between cinnamon and lutino is very low for a normal green double split x normal. If you add all the other mutations it isn't getting higher. :D
Madas, I have a feeling the first bird, the Misty SL Edged IndigoBlue Grey/ino/cinnamon is already the one where the crossover for ino and cinnamon successfully occurred. So then his offspring, the SL Edged turqBlue/Cinnamon/ino would be crossed over as well most likely. It would explain why both cocks produce similar phenotypes. The interesting thing is, then we have a good chance of one or both being tripple crossovers with SL edged in the mix as well.
And i have a feeling that the SL Edged turqBlue /Cinnamon /ino? (? = possible split ino) isn't a son of the Misty SL Edged IndigoBlue Grey/ino/cinnamon because he has another father. :D

What bothers me are the "pallid" markers in the main flights. Do you think a cinnamon-ino or cinnamon-ino-SL Edged is showing such markers? For Sl Edged the edges are "dark" with lighter parts between them and for pallid the edges are light with darker parts between them. If you combine both you will end up with very light flight feathers without any edged pattern or maybe an uniform very light brown/grey color. But i don't think they will look like pallid any more. Cinnamon-SL Edged isn't fitting because the breeder has a lot of them. :) Ino-SL Edged shouldn't fit too.

So any one with a pic of a cinnamon-ino crossover IRN? Would be great to see this phenotype for comparison. thx.

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Re: What am i? (again)

Post by madas » Wed Jun 18, 2014 10:57 pm

Here is the other family:

Image
Image
Image
Image

greetings.

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Re: What am i? (again)

Post by Johan S » Thu Jun 19, 2014 5:37 am

madas wrote:Because one of the fathers is for sure split for lutino so can't be split for pallid. The other is possible split for lutino because his father was sure split for Lutino.
madas wrote:And i have a feeling that the SL Edged turqBlue /Cinnamon /ino? (? = possible split ino) isn't a son of the Misty SL Edged IndigoBlue Grey/ino/cinnamon because he has another father. :D
Thought from your earlier response he was the father. Now I realise I assumed that because the first bird could be the father, that he was. Which he isn't. :?
madas wrote:What bothers me are the "pallid" markers in the main flights. Do you think a cinnamon-ino or cinnamon-ino-SL Edged is showing such markers?
These birds certainly look like pallids. I'd say test one of them by pairing it to a pallid to be sure. I don't think the crossovers with ino will show that much melanin.

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Re: What am i? (again)

Post by Ring0Neck » Thu Jun 19, 2014 9:56 am

creative thought 8)
Opaline to be part of the gen-makeup as well & we could possibly have here "the creation of Pallid" a triple x-over + allelicism in play
equals; birth of a mutation :?
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Re: What am i? (again)

Post by Recio » Thu Jun 19, 2014 10:59 am

Ring0Neck wrote:creative thought 8)
Opaline to be part of the gen-makeup as well & we could possibly have here "the creation of Pallid" a triple x-over + allelicism in play
equals; birth of a mutation :?
Hi Ben,

I certainly like your creative thought, but we should first analyse how does every double crossing over look like:
1. Lutino cinnamon looks like a ligth green yellow
2. SL Edge and SL-Ino?
3. Sl Edge and cinnamon? .... Tienie, could you assist, please?

The Opaline gene comes from the mother, so it is only present in male offspring and only in the heterozygous form. It would only be "detectable" if Opaline was an incomplete dominant mutation, as has been suggested in other posts, and not a recessive mutation. The first thing to do to know which hypothesis fits better is sexing the Pallid-like looking offspring: if they are all females we should study the Cinnamon, SL-ino and SL-Edge combos, if they are all males we should carefully look at Opaline.

Regards

Recio

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Re: What am i? (again)

Post by Ring0Neck » Fri Jun 20, 2014 4:52 am

Recio,

True, if breeder is certain that none of the parents of the fathers carried opaline.
Secondly, i have never seen an Ino-Opaline & my thought is that it could be an allelic interaction between the 2 just like pallidino.
Possibly giving us InoOpaline= pallid lookalike?
has anyone bred an ino opaline?
Stefan did mention Ino in early pallids... SL or NSL don't recall.
Either way we would have to find these "pallids" in males once dna sexed & as Johan said they look like hens in the pics.
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Re: What am i? (again)

Post by madas » Fri Jun 20, 2014 5:16 am

Ring0Neck wrote:Recio,

True, if breeder is certain that none of the parents of the fathers carried opaline.
Secondly, i have never seen an Ino-Opaline & my thought is that it could be an allelic interaction between the 2 just like pallidino.
Possibly giving us InoOpaline= pallid lookalike?
has anyone bred an ino opaline?
Stefan did mention Ino in early pallids... SL or NSL don't recall.
Either way we would have to find these "pallids" in males once dna sexed & as Johan said they look like hens in the pics.
Hi Ringo,

i can't be an allelic interaction like pallidIno because we deal at least with two mutations of two distinct loci. Pallid and Ino are located on the same loci.
But i agree that there is possible some kind of (non allelic) interaction between two mutations of distinct loci on the same chromosome. This is seen in Budgies
for cinnamon and ino where cinnamon isn't completely masked by the ino gen.

Image

Image

cinnamon ino opaline (still not completely hidden):

Image

Regarding the birds of my friend: the males can't carry the opaline gen because it is his first try to combine SL Edged and Opaline.

greetings.

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Re: What am i? (again)

Post by madas » Wed Aug 13, 2014 11:01 pm

Hi,

and another mystery "Pallid" from a friend of mine out of indigo violet cobalt x indigo:

Image

Image

Until this season no pallids were breed from her parents and her grandparents. What is your opinion on this bird?

thx

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Re: What am i? (again)

Post by Johan S » Thu Aug 14, 2014 1:41 am

Hi Madas,

like you suggest, probably a pallid (the light grey flights are very distinct, and it certainly looks to be a hen), in cobalt violet indigo(df?). The beak colour looks really off on this chick (light pink), and a lot of juvenile barring in the psitacin deposition. I suspect this bird might have suffered from malnutrition while still very young (perhaps the youngest in the clutch, lot's of competition?), but it should improve with age.

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Re: What am i? (again)

Post by Molossus2 » Thu Aug 14, 2014 12:18 pm

Madas the barrings are typical of Misty..it has been also suggested that such barrings are caused by the inclusion of sl edge in the combo...there is a distinct difference in the edge markings...and sl edge is certainly not a part of this specimen.

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Re: What am i? (again)

Post by Ring0Neck » Mon Sep 15, 2014 4:47 am

Madas,

Did you get any updates on the DNA results ?

I still think Opaline is in play. We have seen Opaline to turn into white headed bird in Phil's "DF Pied Opaline"
So here are the males: Misty SL Edged IndigoBlue Grey /Cinnamon /Lutino and the other is SL Edged turqBlue /Cinnamon /Lutino?
Consider the possibility of the males:
Misty SL Edged IndigoBlue Grey /Cinnamon /Lutino==> Misty Edged Grey Opaline TurquoiseBlue/Cinn/INO
SL Edged turqBlue /Cinnamon /Lutino? ==> SL Edged turqBlue /Cinnamon /Lutino? /Opaline?
In both breeding lines there wasn't any pallid offspring over three generations
I bet that there was no INO bred either over the 3 gen.
Is the INO SL or NSL?


PS: Does anyone know what the results were from this testbreeding program?
http://www.mutavi.info/index.php?ref=appeal2
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Re: What am i? (again)

Post by madas » Tue Sep 16, 2014 10:21 pm

Ring0Neck wrote: PS: Does anyone know what the results were from this testbreeding program?
http://www.mutavi.info/index.php?ref=appeal2
I have asked Inte and he told me that there are no conclusive results regarding this breeding programm due to low participation. :(

madas

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Re: What am i? (again)

Post by madas » Tue Sep 16, 2014 10:27 pm

Ring0Neck wrote:Madas,

Did you get any updates on the DNA results ?

I still think Opaline is in play. We have seen Opaline to turn into white headed bird in Phil's "DF Pied Opaline"
So here are the males: Misty SL Edged IndigoBlue Grey /Cinnamon /Lutino and the other is SL Edged turqBlue /Cinnamon /Lutino?
Consider the possibility of the males:
Misty SL Edged IndigoBlue Grey /Cinnamon /Lutino==> Misty Edged Grey Opaline TurquoiseBlue/Cinn/INO
SL Edged turqBlue /Cinnamon /Lutino? ==> SL Edged turqBlue /Cinnamon /Lutino? /Opaline?
In both breeding lines there wasn't any pallid offspring over three generations
I bet that there was no INO bred either over the 3 gen.
Is the INO SL or NSL?
Hi ringo,

the breeder of these stange "pallids" is one of the first breeders who got the SL Edged and Misty mutations here in Germany and established a breeding program with them. Long before Opalin arrived. Within the last two or three years he is trying to combine opaline with SL Edged. So for sure no opaline is involved.

And you are right No pallid offspring so far implies that there is no INO offspring too. :)

I will ask for the sexing results.

greetings.

madas

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Re: What am i? (again)

Post by Johan S » Wed Sep 17, 2014 7:16 am

madas wrote:I will ask for the sexing results.

greetings.

madas
Hen. :D

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Re: What am i? (again)

Post by Ring0Neck » Sat Oct 11, 2014 5:53 am

madas wrote:Hi,

and another mystery "Pallid" from a friend of mine out of indigo violet cobalt x indigo:

Image

Image

Until this season no pallids were breed from her parents and her grandparents. What is your opinion on this bird?

thx
Madas,

Any updates on these chicks? Is the head normal in color now or still Pallid like?

I am thinking in this instance: Indigo=Misty Turquoise
So we could be looking at TurquoiseBlue DF Misty + ?Cinnamon
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