DF Emeralds
Moderator: Mods
DF Emeralds
Hi everybody,
In the past we have detected several differences between patched parblues (Turquoise, Indigo, ... Saphire?) and heterozygous Emeralds leading to the hypothesis that Emerald is not a parblue but, probably, an incomplete dominant mutation acting on feather structure. These findings were:
1. Anatomical psittacin distribution. Patched in parblues. Even colour in Emeralds.
2. Gradient distribution (at the feather and anatomical level) in patched parblues (maximal in coverts and head, and at the feather tip) and even colour in Emeralds.
3. Age dependent expression of psittacins: progressive increase in the expression of psittacins in parblues from fledging till adulthood. Final colour from feathering in Emeralds.
4. Hormonal dependent expression of psittacins: the expression of patched psittacins (coverts and neckring) is maximal after reaching adulthood in parblues. Patched psittacin is not expressed in Emeralds.
5. Different fluorescence under uv :hard to describe with words since it depends on the uv source and the observer eyes, but different type of fluorescence, described as yellowish for parblues and wild type, and as bluish for Emeralds. Fluorescence is already maximal in Emeralds at feathering and progressive in parblues till adulthood.
6. Different iridescence under natural ligth: Emeralds are brigth iridescent birds with an apparent colour changing with the angle made by the ligth-the bird-the observer. Parblues aren't (or at a much lower level).
7. Different hue under natural ligth : Emerald birds can appear greener or bluer depending on ligthing conditions, while parblues colour remains almost the same.
Now we can analyse the phenotype of DF Emeralds (see pics from Chris) and compare it to the phenotype of homozygous parblues. We will get some more findings pointing to Emerald as a structural mutation:
DF Emerald male
DF Emerald male
DF Emerald head
SF Emerald head
1. Head colour:
DF Emeralds show a brownish head colour while DF parblues show an increase in yellow pigments leading to a greener head colour. If Emerald was a parblue mutation, the DF Emerald should have shown a greener head (increase psittacin). If Emerald was a structural mutation the DF Emerald would be expected to show a darker phenotype than the SF bird (like for Dark and Violet) ... and this is the case.
2. Head brightness:
Brightness or iridescence depends on the ultrastructure of the outer feather cortex. Mutations acting on this structure would alter iridescence. SF Emeralds show a brigth head. This head brigthness is lost in DF birds (pics and Chris personal communication) allowing to conclude that a further alteration of feather structure in DF Emeralds destroys/changes the structure of the outer cortex and leads to a lost of iridescence (similar to the effect of SF Dark and DF Dark on the spongy zone). If Emerald was a parblue mutation (just acting on psittacin production) it would not alter iridescence in any way.
3. Black ring:
The black ring colour depends on the presence of foreground melanin in the cortex of the neckring feathers and not on the backgroung melanin (the melanin responsible of the blue colour together with the interference phenomenon). So mutations altering cortex structure would be able to affect foreground melanin deposition. We can see in some SF Emeralds a thinner black ring, and this effect is enhanced in DF Emeralds showing just a shadow of ring. If Emerald was a parblue mutation ... how to explain its action on ring melanin? Remember that the black ring is not affected in parblues, which only act on psittacins.
4. Red ring:
Psittacins (red and yellow) are deposited in the cortex. Whenever a mutation alters cortex structure we should expect a change in the deposition of these psittacins. The action of Emerald at this level could explain that no Emerald bird has ever shown a red ring (independently that it is a green or a blue series bird). If Emerald was a parblue mutation, a DF Emerald should have produced an increase quantity of yellow psittacins and, likely, a red ring (like for the DF patched parblues)... but this is not the case.
The strong points in this reasoning are the lost of iridescence and the lost of the black ring in DF Emeralds. These findings can be explained if we consider Emerald as a structural mutation acting on the outer cortex, but I would not be able to explain them considering Emerald as a parblue.
Regards
Recio
PS: Thanks to Chris for his generosity providing all these pics.
In the past we have detected several differences between patched parblues (Turquoise, Indigo, ... Saphire?) and heterozygous Emeralds leading to the hypothesis that Emerald is not a parblue but, probably, an incomplete dominant mutation acting on feather structure. These findings were:
1. Anatomical psittacin distribution. Patched in parblues. Even colour in Emeralds.
2. Gradient distribution (at the feather and anatomical level) in patched parblues (maximal in coverts and head, and at the feather tip) and even colour in Emeralds.
3. Age dependent expression of psittacins: progressive increase in the expression of psittacins in parblues from fledging till adulthood. Final colour from feathering in Emeralds.
4. Hormonal dependent expression of psittacins: the expression of patched psittacins (coverts and neckring) is maximal after reaching adulthood in parblues. Patched psittacin is not expressed in Emeralds.
5. Different fluorescence under uv :hard to describe with words since it depends on the uv source and the observer eyes, but different type of fluorescence, described as yellowish for parblues and wild type, and as bluish for Emeralds. Fluorescence is already maximal in Emeralds at feathering and progressive in parblues till adulthood.
6. Different iridescence under natural ligth: Emeralds are brigth iridescent birds with an apparent colour changing with the angle made by the ligth-the bird-the observer. Parblues aren't (or at a much lower level).
7. Different hue under natural ligth : Emerald birds can appear greener or bluer depending on ligthing conditions, while parblues colour remains almost the same.
Now we can analyse the phenotype of DF Emeralds (see pics from Chris) and compare it to the phenotype of homozygous parblues. We will get some more findings pointing to Emerald as a structural mutation:
DF Emerald male
DF Emerald male
DF Emerald head
SF Emerald head
1. Head colour:
DF Emeralds show a brownish head colour while DF parblues show an increase in yellow pigments leading to a greener head colour. If Emerald was a parblue mutation, the DF Emerald should have shown a greener head (increase psittacin). If Emerald was a structural mutation the DF Emerald would be expected to show a darker phenotype than the SF bird (like for Dark and Violet) ... and this is the case.
2. Head brightness:
Brightness or iridescence depends on the ultrastructure of the outer feather cortex. Mutations acting on this structure would alter iridescence. SF Emeralds show a brigth head. This head brigthness is lost in DF birds (pics and Chris personal communication) allowing to conclude that a further alteration of feather structure in DF Emeralds destroys/changes the structure of the outer cortex and leads to a lost of iridescence (similar to the effect of SF Dark and DF Dark on the spongy zone). If Emerald was a parblue mutation (just acting on psittacin production) it would not alter iridescence in any way.
3. Black ring:
The black ring colour depends on the presence of foreground melanin in the cortex of the neckring feathers and not on the backgroung melanin (the melanin responsible of the blue colour together with the interference phenomenon). So mutations altering cortex structure would be able to affect foreground melanin deposition. We can see in some SF Emeralds a thinner black ring, and this effect is enhanced in DF Emeralds showing just a shadow of ring. If Emerald was a parblue mutation ... how to explain its action on ring melanin? Remember that the black ring is not affected in parblues, which only act on psittacins.
4. Red ring:
Psittacins (red and yellow) are deposited in the cortex. Whenever a mutation alters cortex structure we should expect a change in the deposition of these psittacins. The action of Emerald at this level could explain that no Emerald bird has ever shown a red ring (independently that it is a green or a blue series bird). If Emerald was a parblue mutation, a DF Emerald should have produced an increase quantity of yellow psittacins and, likely, a red ring (like for the DF patched parblues)... but this is not the case.
The strong points in this reasoning are the lost of iridescence and the lost of the black ring in DF Emeralds. These findings can be explained if we consider Emerald as a structural mutation acting on the outer cortex, but I would not be able to explain them considering Emerald as a parblue.
Regards
Recio
PS: Thanks to Chris for his generosity providing all these pics.
Re: DF Emeralds
That is a great phenotypical analysis Recio. We now however have Mike's breeding of the heteroallele EmeraldTurquoise x Blue (I leave out the CHCT and the structural mutations) giving 5 EmeraldBlues and 2 TurquoiseBlues. If not Parblue we would have expected Blue birds and EmeraldTurquoise young also. This is only the first reported breeding of the 3 pairings which can provide the answer, the others being EmeraldBlue x Green and df Emerald x Green. Hopefully someone will report more breeding results from this season.
Re: DF Emeralds
Hi Recio, very interesting analysis! However, I'd like to eliminate a variable before commencing. How old is the DF emerald for us to assume that the neck ring in the pictures is of a mature bird? I have a 2011 Turquoise?Blue cock with a very similar "partial"/reduced neck ring after his 15 month moult. So this bird of mine is actually a youngster, but with high hormonal level as he had 100% fertility this season (obviously his first). If the pictures is of a 2011 DF emerald cock, I don't think we can compare the neck rings yet. Of course, if he is 2010 or older, then you have given us a lot of food for thought this weekend.Recio wrote:The strong points in this reasoning are the lost of iridescence and the lost of the black ring in DF Emeralds. These findings can be explained if we consider Emerald as a structural mutation acting on the outer cortex, but I would not be able to explain them considering Emerald as a parblue.
Re: DF Emeralds
Chris, this is where you jump in and tell us how old are the first df Emeralds that you and Phil bred? Phil told me he sent you one but didn't realise it was df and that that is the one you sent to Deon. Phil asked me the other day how you tell and I just passed on what you have observed, that of the greener flights. Is this history correct?
Re: DF Emeralds
Hi Willy & Johan,trabots wrote:Chris, this is where you jump in and tell us how old are the first df Emeralds that you and Phil bred? Phil told me he sent you one but didn't realise it was df and that that is the one you sent to Deon. Phil asked me the other day how you tell and I just passed on what you have observed, that of the greener flights. Is this history correct?
I will let Chris to directly answer about the bird's age and the origin of Deon's DF Emerald ... and I join you to add a question for Chris: Please, Chris, we all have seen the uv pics of the SF and DF Emeralds when they were youngsters. Could you tell us if the emited fluorescence has changed in type, distribution or intensity after the DF birds reached adulthood?
@ everybody: I need a pic of an adult phenotypic turquoise emerald male (genotype EmeraldBlue or SF Emerald TurquoiseBlue or SF Emerald DF Turquoise depending on different hypothesis). With this pic we will try to explore the interaction between Emerald and Parblues.... and also Mike's results.
Thanks
Recio
Re: DF Emeralds
Hi,
No one can provide a pic of an Emerald parblue adult male showing the red ring? I really need it to continue my reasoning.
Thanks
Recio
No one can provide a pic of an Emerald parblue adult male showing the red ring? I really need it to continue my reasoning.
Thanks
Recio
Re: DF Emeralds
Recio, as far as this group is aware of, there are only the 2 for sure df Emeralds in existence so far. Deon's bred by Phil and Chris'. Your analysis may have to wait for these birds to mature.
Re: DF Emeralds
Willy, I am not asking for DF Emeralds Turquoise but for SF Emerald TurquoiseBlue (or EmeraldTurquoise if you prefere). I wrote:
@ everybody: I need a pic of an adult phenotypic turquoise emerald male (genotype EmeraldBlue or SF Emerald TurquoiseBlue or SF Emerald DF Turquoise depending on different hypothesis). With this pic we will try to explore the interaction between Emerald and Parblues.... and also Mike's results.
Thanks
Recio
@ everybody: I need a pic of an adult phenotypic turquoise emerald male (genotype EmeraldBlue or SF Emerald TurquoiseBlue or SF Emerald DF Turquoise depending on different hypothesis). With this pic we will try to explore the interaction between Emerald and Parblues.... and also Mike's results.
Thanks
Recio
Re: DF Emeralds
Sorry. I just went off your last post. An EmeraldBlue has a white ring and a TurquoiseBlue has a salmon ring so an EmeraldTurquoise will have a ring in between in colour IMO.No one can provide a pic of an Emerald parblue adult male showing the red ring?
Re: DF Emeralds
Are you sure? If this is the case then Emerald couldn't be a even colored parblue.trabots wrote: An EmeraldBlue has a white ring
I thought emerald is showing a light pink to orange neckring.
Re: DF Emeralds
Stefan, you can clearly see that the EmeraldBlue in my image has a different coloured face to the rest of its body. I think the 'even distribution of psitticin was just to differentiate from TurquoiseBlue and now IndigoBlue.If this is the case then Emerald couldn't be a even colored parblue.
Re: DF Emeralds
Further to this can anyone post an image of any Emerald which has a non-white ring? If there is a Green series Emerald that would be the bird.
Re: DF Emeralds
Hi Madas and Willy,trabots wrote:Sorry. I just went off your last post. An EmeraldBlue has a white ring and a TurquoiseBlue has a salmon ring so an EmeraldTurquoise will have a ring in between in colour IMO.No one can provide a pic of an Emerald parblue adult male showing the red ring?
If Emerald was a parblue, a TurquoiseEmerald must show a deeper red ring than a TurquoiseBlue. Do we agree?
If Emerald was a structural mutation probaly the deposition of red psittacins would be lower (if any) in a phenotypic turquoise emerald than in a TurquoiseBlue. Do not forget that the DF Emerald does not show any red ring.
I have not much time, so I will develop later. It would great to have that pic.
Regards
Recio
Re: DF Emeralds
I agree but would reduce the "deeper" to "some steps" (means not much).Recio wrote: If Emerald was a parblue, a TurquoiseEmerald must show a deeper red ring than a TurquoiseBlue. Do we agree?
It's not proven yet or did i miss something? Is the DF bird of Chris fully matured? If i remember correct this bird (a male) was send to Deon but he received two emerald females (one DF and EF) for sure. So is Chris still owning the male???Recio wrote: Do not forget that the DF Emerald does not show any red ring.
Last edited by madas on Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:07 am, edited 2 times in total.
Re: DF Emeralds
@Willy: The ef emerald of Chris is showing a light orange neckring.Recio wrote: SF Emerald head
Are you sure your birds are emeralds (don't miss understand the question)? Should read => have you ever breed a emerald ino or emerald cleartail out of your emeralds? So do they produce the typical even creamy color within the "psittacine free areas" of these two mutations?
Re: DF Emeralds
I don't agree. The psitticin quantity in the heteroallele overall will be in between that of either, so a lighter neck ring IMO. If the psitticin quantity was cumulative the EmeraldTurquoise would be a lot greener. It is in between so why would the ring get redder?If Emerald was a parblue, a TurquoiseEmerald must show a deeper red ring than a TurquoiseBlue. Do we agree?
My only mature EmeraldBlue is that in my pic. I will have to have a close look in the hand. It breeds EmeraldBlues for sure. I won't breed with Ino , the birds are worth nothing in Oz.The ef emerald of Chris is showing a light orange neckring
Bastiaan says AquaBlue has a "yellowish pink" ring.
Re: DF Emeralds
The psittacin quantity in the heteroallele TurquoiseEmerald will be in between that of either homozygotic alleles, that is between DF Turquoise and DF Emerald but we are describing TurquoiseEmerald respective to the heterozygous TurquoiseBlue, and thus, if Turquoise and Emerald were both parblues, an additive effect should be expected.trabots wrote:I don't agree. The psitticin quantity in the heteroallele overall will be in between that of either, so a lighter neck ring IMO. If the psitticin quantity was cumulative the EmeraldTurquoise would be a lot greener. It is in between so why would the ring get redder?If Emerald was a parblue, a TurquoiseEmerald must show a deeper red ring than a TurquoiseBlue. Do we agree?
I do not own any Emerald so I am refering to other's observations. In psittacula world (http://home.wanadoo.nl/psittaculaworld/ ... aWorld.htm) Aqua Blue and Aqua Ino are described as not showing any red ring, similar to Willy's observations. The DF Aqua is not described (it did not exist at that time)trabots wrote:My only mature EmeraldBlue is that in my pic. I will have to have a close look in the hand. It breeds EmeraldBlues for sure. I won't breed with Ino , the birds are worth nothing in Oz.The ef emerald of Chris is showing a light orange neckring
Bastiaan says AquaBlue has a "yellowish pink" ring.
Anyway I have not found a single phenotypic Emerald Parblue showing a red ring after several days of research ... and nobody has been able to show this pic after my request. Should we conclude that genotypic turquoise birds could appear like phenotypic Indigo birds when Emerald is added? That is ... patched parblues would partially activate the synthesis of psittacins in an additive manner (DF Blue < IndigoBlue < DF Indigo < TurquoiseBlue < DF Turquoise < Wild type) while Emerald would partially inhibit that synthesis? In this case both groups of mutations are acting on different enzymes and, thus, a different gene is affected. This gene could be a second blue locus or a mutation on feather structure explaining also the changes in iridescence (the apparent decrease in psittacins would be a secondary indirect consequence).
I have tried to approach this idea in a very symplistic way but it can be further developped.
Regards
Recio
Re: DF Emeralds
Just had a look at Bastiaan's book (page 51 Aqua)
Could it be that that Aqua does exist and is not Emerald?
Regards
Gratz
Could it be that that Aqua does exist and is not Emerald?
Regards
Gratz
Last edited by Gratz on Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: DF Emeralds
Recio, therein lies the problem. You are talking Dominant Emerald I am talking EmeraldBlue. I said heteroallele TurquoiseEmerald which by definition means one gene for each. With the latest breeding results now from 2 sources indicating Emerald being Parblue we should be talking the same language but we aren't.The psittacin quantity in the heteroallele TurquoiseEmerald will be in between that of either homozygotic alleles, that is between DF Turquoise and DF Emerald but we are describing TurquoiseEmerald respective to the heterozygous TurquoiseBlue, and thus, if Turquoise and Emerald were both parblues, an additive effect should be expected.
Further to the non-compounding effect of heteroalleles in Parblues, we should have long ago seen a compounding effect in the numerous TurquoiseIndigos which have been bred before it was realised that they were different Parblues. The fact that they are in-between has increased the apparent variability in 'pastel Blue' IRNs. Chris' images of EmeraldTurquoise along side EmeraldBlue and TurquoiseBlue also shows at best a bird that has no more psitticin than either.
Re: DF Emeralds
Hi Willy,
What do you call the non-compounding effect of parblues? ... Could you please describe an exemple with phenotypes and genotypes?
Regards
Recio
What do you call the non-compounding effect of parblues? ... Could you please describe an exemple with phenotypes and genotypes?
Regards
Recio
Re: DF Emeralds
This is your answer Recio. TurquoiseIndigos are out there for sure and they aren't noticed unless someone breeds one to a Blue which then separates them into TurquoiseBlue and IndigoBlue. Even then unless the mating was on purpose to achieve this, the breeder puts the differences down to variability. That was the whole issue.we should have long ago seen a compounding effect in the numerous TurquoiseIndigos which have been bred before it was realised that they were different Parblues
This is what I am sure was a Dark TurquoiseIndigo. The neck ring up close was very pale but had colour and the patching is less than on a TurquoiseBlue and more than on an IndigoBlue. Unfortunately I sold the bird as it was a confirmed split NSL Ino.
Re: DF Emeralds
Sorry, sorry. I could have let this go as fact but after checking my records the imaged bird bred non Parblues when paired to a Blue. They bred a male NSL Albino which confirmed both parents were split NSL Ino. They were both split CHCT. So is this bird an IndigoBlue or a TurquoiseBlue? In any event it would surely sit in the visual overlap zone between the two mutations.
I would still argue that a TurquoiseIndigo would look like this bird.
I would still argue that a TurquoiseIndigo would look like this bird.
Re: DF Emeralds
Recio, how about this logic:
Assign a df Turquoise a psitticin level of 10
Assign a homozygous Blue a psitticin level of 0
Combine the 2 alleles and you get an average of the two or 5 as is seen in a TurquoiseBlue.
There is a valid counter to this logic.................
Assign a df Turquoise a psitticin level of 10
Assign a homozygous Blue a psitticin level of 0
Combine the 2 alleles and you get an average of the two or 5 as is seen in a TurquoiseBlue.
There is a valid counter to this logic.................
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Re: DF Emeralds
Viewing the birds on this post I wonder if any of the photo's portray whats reconised as a true Emerald Phenotype my understanding of the description of Emerald was the subject bird was to show a uniform seagreen colour without patch's meaning either psittascin nor anywhare else.I live minutes from where JS resided when he was with us and visited him several times and the only phenotype he displayed was as per the reconised standard of UNIFORM overall colour. This phenotype has been demonstrated on Gratz post under the other Emerald Dominance Post that has a photo of a mother and daughter I consider these birds to be the same as I remember, has this standard changed or are we now to except patchy birds or prodominately blue birds or other coloured birds as being correct?If so can someone publish the new (revised) standard and let the rest of us know who is authorised to make these changes.This is not meant to offend anyone I really am trying to understand how this forum works and who has been deligated to regulate quality control. With good intentions Paul
Re: DF Emeralds
Paul,
The forum idea is simple: everyone to positively contribute to conversations.
As far as questioning Willy's emeralds i can tell you that last year he got an emerald/CT hen from me that was acquired from Nigel Carr which in turn has his emeralds from late J S.
If Willy had any doubt about his emeralds he would have picked it up.
Sounds like i'm defending him but in fact i'm saying let's stop this negatively charged thinking and try to build on positives.
PHOTOS: we should know better by now not to judge birds from photos alone, they are merely a 70%+- accuracy representation of how we see that bird with naked eye.
The forum idea is simple: everyone to positively contribute to conversations.
As far as questioning Willy's emeralds i can tell you that last year he got an emerald/CT hen from me that was acquired from Nigel Carr which in turn has his emeralds from late J S.
If Willy had any doubt about his emeralds he would have picked it up.
Sounds like i'm defending him but in fact i'm saying let's stop this negatively charged thinking and try to build on positives.
PHOTOS: we should know better by now not to judge birds from photos alone, they are merely a 70%+- accuracy representation of how we see that bird with naked eye.
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Re: DF Emeralds
Paul, if this isn't an EmeraldBlue then what is? This is the standard other than there is a question about the neck ring being variable, nothing new in a Parblue. You take verbatim that it must have "UNIFORM overall colour", it is uniform only in the sense that a Green wildtype is uniform. Just as the Green has some blue suffusion on the neck and a brighter face, so does an EmeraldBlue. And how about the flights and tail? There are definitely no patches on an EmeraldBlue, my 'patched Emeralds' cannot be EmeraldBlues but they were bred from one and a Deep Violet. We don't know what they are but when I breed them together next year we should have some answers. Note the inverted commas which I use most of the time to indicate a temporary label or one that is long been replaced with the proper name.
Now I know you were talking about the EmeraldBlue when you say "Emerald", a df Emerald however is another story as there isn't a mature one that this forum is aware of. In a year or two when Deon's and Chris' are mature there will be a new standard for Emerald, that of the homozygous bird, and from early appearances it will be even less uniform in colour. Also with good intentions.
Johan, do you see the need for the "df" I use now? We need something to eliminate this constant re-confirmation of what we are talking about and Full Monty Emerald just doesn't work...
Now I know you were talking about the EmeraldBlue when you say "Emerald", a df Emerald however is another story as there isn't a mature one that this forum is aware of. In a year or two when Deon's and Chris' are mature there will be a new standard for Emerald, that of the homozygous bird, and from early appearances it will be even less uniform in colour. Also with good intentions.
Johan, do you see the need for the "df" I use now? We need something to eliminate this constant re-confirmation of what we are talking about and Full Monty Emerald just doesn't work...
Re: DF Emeralds
Ben, do you think the modifier could play a role?trabots wrote: my 'patched Emeralds' cannot be EmeraldBlues but they were bred from one and a Deep Violet.
I simply applied the highlighted fact that mature homozygous emerald is not known to this forum, so I followed the discussion perfectly using that logic. But thanks for the concern. When a discussion deals with comparing heterozygous and homozygous birds, I agree that the clarification helps. I differ from your point of view of being so strict when merely talking about a specific mutation when heterozygous and homozygous expression is beyond the point of discussion. I suppose the issue is whether the point the writer is trying to make is the one focused on by the person responding.trabots wrote:a df Emerald however is another story as there isn't a mature one that this forum is aware of.
Johan, do you see the need for the "df" I use now? We need something to eliminate this constant re-confirmation of what we are talking about and Full Monty Emerald just doesn't work...
Re: DF Emeralds
Takes one to know one JohanI suppose the issue is whether the point the writer is trying to make is the one focused on by the person responding.
Seriously, I don't miss the point as you surely don't either. I just hate having to type out homozygous every time I want to refer to a df Parblue. Most people use DF in any event as is plainly shown by Recio et al and the title of this thread.
Re: DF Emeralds
Agreed
Re: DF Emeralds
According to a breeder this bird is the original hen + a male imported by Jack Smith from UK
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Re: DF Emeralds
Ben, I don't have my head wrapped around all the background yet. Is this hen homozygous emerald? She certainly looks more emerald than other emeralds.
Re: DF Emeralds
Is this hen homozygous emerald?
I got no confirmation of such, i was pleased to get my hands on the pic.
(I cropped out a non emerald bird that was in the pic , irrelevant )
Based on phenotype i say yes she is.
I'm an Explorer
10% luck, 20% skill, 15% concentrated power of will, 50% pleasure, 5% pain$ and a 100% reason ..I just gotta know
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Re: DF Emeralds
Based on the pic i would say she shows some kind of patchiness too.
Re: DF Emeralds
Madas, I'd love to see the bird in real life. It is there in the pic, yes, but it looks like it is patchy at all feathers at the exact same angle to the camera. So could just be a trick of the light. If that is the case, the patches will move in real life, like the colours on a pearl. Should be a thing of beauty!madas wrote:Based on the pic i would say she shows some kind of patchiness too.
Re: DF Emeralds
Hi everybody;
I will do very short: if Emerald was a parblue the only genetic possibilities would be BlueEmerald and ParblueEmerald (I will not consider the DF Emerald here, not yet). Two genetic combinations producing two distinc phenotypes. If I am not wrong we have far more than 2 phenotypes:
Blue Emerald fluorescent under uv
Blue Emerald non fluorescent under uv
Patchy Bluish Emeralds (fluorescent? non fluorescent?)
Willy's patched offspring different of any other and still to be studied
Greenish Emeralds (patched?, non patched?)
I think we need another model allowing for more genetic interactions and also explaining the effect on the red and black ring. Any sugestions?
Regards
Recio
I will do very short: if Emerald was a parblue the only genetic possibilities would be BlueEmerald and ParblueEmerald (I will not consider the DF Emerald here, not yet). Two genetic combinations producing two distinc phenotypes. If I am not wrong we have far more than 2 phenotypes:
Blue Emerald fluorescent under uv
Blue Emerald non fluorescent under uv
Patchy Bluish Emeralds (fluorescent? non fluorescent?)
Willy's patched offspring different of any other and still to be studied
Greenish Emeralds (patched?, non patched?)
I think we need another model allowing for more genetic interactions and also explaining the effect on the red and black ring. Any sugestions?
Regards
Recio
Re: DF Emeralds
Madas,
It probably has to do with its age as well, i don't remember the year but she'd be close to 10 y old now? give or take a few.
Given the missing feathers in the tail also going through moult?!
Johan, yea it can be, this is a blue bird as an example
http://parakeet.me/irn/m/em/DSC_0248.jpg
flash
It probably has to do with its age as well, i don't remember the year but she'd be close to 10 y old now? give or take a few.
Given the missing feathers in the tail also going through moult?!
Johan, yea it can be, this is a blue bird as an example
http://parakeet.me/irn/m/em/DSC_0248.jpg
flash
I'm an Explorer
10% luck, 20% skill, 15% concentrated power of will, 50% pleasure, 5% pain$ and a 100% reason ..I just gotta know
10% luck, 20% skill, 15% concentrated power of will, 50% pleasure, 5% pain$ and a 100% reason ..I just gotta know
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Re: DF Emeralds
Recio I spent some time visiting the late Jack and he was a very open and knowledgable birdo and although I cannot be 100% confident it was the Emeralds being referd to I can recall a conversation with him where he told me he actually sauced the original bird here in Australia I am sure I would not have been the only person told this and perphaps their is other long time acqauntances of the late JS that can confirm or put this input to bed. This input is only an attempt to establish the true foundation of this mutation and although it will have it's champions nervious the answer is not going to affect nor be debtramental to this unique mutation I now refer to my earlier post on this thread and reiterarate that the phenotypes portraded in the photo's in my view are incorrect this is my view and I don't expect the premadonner responce by one forum menber as posted last time.I'm sure most will agree that this forum's quality can only be enhanced if all facts are considerd and all paticipants are entitled to their views and all are treated on an equal footing.
Re: DF Emeralds
Hi Paul, all's good! I think most will agree that a mutual respect between members are required to have this boat sailing smoothly.
Do you have a picture of an emerald specimen that you feel shows the mutation best as it is described/defined? I am usually the one that would support the idea of variation in parblues. The cobalt indigoblue / NSLino cock posted previously shows just this. So I'd be happy to accept that emerald could also show such variation. Paul, what is your take on variability?
Do you have a picture of an emerald specimen that you feel shows the mutation best as it is described/defined? I am usually the one that would support the idea of variation in parblues. The cobalt indigoblue / NSLino cock posted previously shows just this. So I'd be happy to accept that emerald could also show such variation. Paul, what is your take on variability?
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Re: DF Emeralds
Johan
Thanks for your interest the photo referred to in Mikes post shows a photo of a JS emerald which is typical of his birds before he released them for public sale around the middle of last decade I discussed this mutation with him as I was interested in purchasing par blues (if emeralds are) with the view of specializing on one type and then developing the chosen line over a long period the main feature that set emeralds above other parblues was they are uniform in psittacin distribution this is what was considerd to be the main attribute that the parblue could not equal I have parblues that have similar phenotype however they remain patchy. I decided to go down the parblue path and therefore I don't own any emeralds and that will be my status for the immediate future. I am not a purist and my only reason for raising this topic is I wonder if this mutation will be identified for what it is (was) in ten years time or will it be lost amongst the abyss of the huge parblue family The original hen that appeared earlier on this thread is a different hue to it's offspring this also puzzled Jack. Regards Paul
Thanks for your interest the photo referred to in Mikes post shows a photo of a JS emerald which is typical of his birds before he released them for public sale around the middle of last decade I discussed this mutation with him as I was interested in purchasing par blues (if emeralds are) with the view of specializing on one type and then developing the chosen line over a long period the main feature that set emeralds above other parblues was they are uniform in psittacin distribution this is what was considerd to be the main attribute that the parblue could not equal I have parblues that have similar phenotype however they remain patchy. I decided to go down the parblue path and therefore I don't own any emeralds and that will be my status for the immediate future. I am not a purist and my only reason for raising this topic is I wonder if this mutation will be identified for what it is (was) in ten years time or will it be lost amongst the abyss of the huge parblue family The original hen that appeared earlier on this thread is a different hue to it's offspring this also puzzled Jack. Regards Paul
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Re: DF Emeralds
To All
Addendum to my three previous posts on this thread I am excited to announce I have been contacted by a birdo who meet the Smith bros many years ago he is not a particapant of this site and was contacted on my behalf by another party that tracked him down via the bush telegraph he sent me a back copy of the ABK with a note that said simply for your attention this covers the lot. I refer interested parties to the ABK Vol 21 Issue 3 June/July 2008. "Emerald Indian Ringnecks" by Jack Smith and Commented by Terry Martin definitely not a negative article and this also drives home the existance of the second original Emerald that's about to make it's debut on this forum that until recently was unheard of. If we take time out to verify the history of the topic we are discussing it can only lead to a better forum. If you don't know the history that is fine but then reveal your source of the information then build on it from there as more facts come to the surface by using this method people that know the answers you seek are more likely to come forward as they won't feel they are not undermining the subject article. I now reiterate on my previous post 16 of this thread.
Regards
Paul
Addendum to my three previous posts on this thread I am excited to announce I have been contacted by a birdo who meet the Smith bros many years ago he is not a particapant of this site and was contacted on my behalf by another party that tracked him down via the bush telegraph he sent me a back copy of the ABK with a note that said simply for your attention this covers the lot. I refer interested parties to the ABK Vol 21 Issue 3 June/July 2008. "Emerald Indian Ringnecks" by Jack Smith and Commented by Terry Martin definitely not a negative article and this also drives home the existance of the second original Emerald that's about to make it's debut on this forum that until recently was unheard of. If we take time out to verify the history of the topic we are discussing it can only lead to a better forum. If you don't know the history that is fine but then reveal your source of the information then build on it from there as more facts come to the surface by using this method people that know the answers you seek are more likely to come forward as they won't feel they are not undermining the subject article. I now reiterate on my previous post 16 of this thread.
Regards
Paul
Re: DF Emeralds
Hi Paul,
I can not acces the ABK Vol 21 Issue 3 June/July 2008. Is there a link in the web to read it?
Thanks
Recio
I can not acces the ABK Vol 21 Issue 3 June/July 2008. Is there a link in the web to read it?
Thanks
Recio
Re: DF Emeralds
Same here.Recio wrote:I can not acces the ABK Vol 21 Issue 3 June/July 2008. Is there a link in the web to read it?
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Re: DF Emeralds
G,Day All .
The SF Emerolds i breed produced a neckring at 2yrs old the DF Emerold never produced a neckring. I sent Deon a SF Emerold hen And a DF Emerold hen for comparision , both that i breed . The DF Emerold hen Phil Breed i keeped to breed with my DF Emerold cock i breed, unfortunility no eggs were produced.The DF Emerold is now getting a neckring at 3yrs old
J S could hardly say he smuggled in the birds a. I beleive the Emerolds were all breed from a single wild caught bird.
The SF Emerolds i breed produced a neckring at 2yrs old the DF Emerold never produced a neckring. I sent Deon a SF Emerold hen And a DF Emerold hen for comparision , both that i breed . The DF Emerold hen Phil Breed i keeped to breed with my DF Emerold cock i breed, unfortunility no eggs were produced.The DF Emerold is now getting a neckring at 3yrs old
J S could hardly say he smuggled in the birds a. I beleive the Emerolds were all breed from a single wild caught bird.
Re: DF Emeralds
So Recio your theory of emerald being a structual mutation is swiming away.mcw-indianringnecks wrote: The DF Emerold is now getting a neckring at 3yrs old
Have you ever ask Chris Whipps regarding the age of the DF emerald? If not how can you base your theory of DF emeralds males don't get a neckring on cock of unknown age then knowing most males only get their ring at an age of 3? Very scientific.
Chris
Re: DF Emeralds
Hi Chriskoi,Chriskoi wrote:So Recio your theory of emerald being a structual mutation is swiming away.mcw-indianringnecks wrote: The DF Emerold is now getting a neckring at 3yrs old
Have you ever ask Chris Whipps regarding the age of the DF emerald? If not how can you base your theory of DF emeralds males don't get a neckring on cock of unknown age then knowing most males only get their ring at an age of 3? Very scientific.
Chris
Re-read my post and you will find that I never said that DF Emealds do not get a ring. I said that it was a thinner and softer ring, and that not red ring has ever been described. I also said that it was Chris who should directly answer the question about the exact age of the bird (I just commented od the data that was available to me at that moment ... much better than not comenting at all).
My friend, we are in a brainstorming discusion so let me feel free to "fly" . Sticking to the soil is very "sure" but then you go nowhere.
@ Chris: could you post the pic og the 3 years old male?
Thanks
Recio
Re: DF Emeralds
Chris, from our experience, most birds in the southern hemisphere actually get their rings at 2 years of age. It'll only sometimes be the second clutch that'll ring up in the third year. We can probably contribute this to our milder winters and birds breeding earlier in SA and Oz. Just a thought.Chriskoi wrote:knowing most males only get their ring at an age of 3?
Chris
Re: DF Emeralds
Hi,
All my male birds got his neckring at 2 years old in France, excepting the Clearhead fallow, which is known to mature later (3 years).
Regards
Recio
All my male birds got his neckring at 2 years old in France, excepting the Clearhead fallow, which is known to mature later (3 years).
Regards
Recio