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Saddleback ?

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Gratz
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Saddleback ?

Post by Gratz » Tue Jun 25, 2013 4:53 am

Image

Image

Image

Hello
I acquired this bird early this year , it is DNA sexed as a cock bird, bred 2012 ,it show characteristics of being saddleback, opaline , dom pied.
it has the same father as the bird in Deon Smiths book doing the comparison between a saddleback and a turquoise dom pied.the bird on the right is from 2010 or 2011 not too sure .
the parents of my bird are blue dom pied cock,turquoise blue dom pied hen ,
ps the bird pictured in Deon's book has the same father but the hen was not a dom pied
your thoughts will be appreciated.
ps this is the same bird when i purchased it

Image

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madas
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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by madas » Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:32 am

Hi,

yeah Looks like the so called "saddlebacks". So the bird is out of Chris Whipps aviaries?
Can you update the last pic? It very small in Resolution.

madas

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Gratz
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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Gratz » Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:42 am

Hi madas

Not from Chris Whipps,
The blue Dom pied was purchased from a Qld breeder , perhaps one of the Dom pied carrying the opaline gene or may even be a Dom pied opaline as the Dom pied hides the opaline appearance ?
I need to find out what to pair this bird with to prove what it is , I have a turquoise violet blue Dom pied hen I could use next year but that won't show if the bird is opaline so I'm thinking to pair it up with a plain hen
Any thought or suggestions are welcome
Ps I dont have a better pic of when the bird first fledged, it's the only pic I could sneak in at the time lol

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Ring0Neck » Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:05 am

Gratz,

I found another pic in your album and made the pics bigger, hope you don't mind.
Image

Madas - I'm thinking SL Dom. Edged, still putting the pieces together, same thing for my white pied/ct.
I have a theory and a few things to backup the idea, sf SL Dom Edged can be present in Pieds and Cleartails virtually undetected.

Image

Gratz,
This is your pic, the violet green on the right, i think he id Sl Dom. Edged green violet.
Look at its flight feathers, and compare it to the one on the left.
If my theory is correct and you pair up that male to a saddleback or turquoise? pied you'll get more saddlebacks as well as white and yellow edged pieds in hens. Idea is in its infancy.

Image
closeup of your bird/pic
Image

Gratz Nice birds!

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by madas » Tue Jun 25, 2013 10:04 am

Only violetgreen or violet(df)green???

And yes the bird looks like a SL Edged(ef) bird.

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Carr.birds » Tue Jun 25, 2013 10:44 am

Ben & Stefan

I agree with you it is an ef (sf) sl edged violet????? (very dark bird) and I support your theory of sl edged involved +++ could be responsible for the incredible beautiful phenotype of saddle back. AS mentioned hens will have a lighter phenotype. Attached a pic of my dblue harlequin hen. Notice her light phenotype and she is a proven ef dom pied. Tests in 2014 with dblueturq dom pied/opaline & sl edged-opaline/blue should answer some questions raised.

Image

Image

Regards

Tienie

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Gratz
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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Gratz » Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:22 pm

Ben,
thanks for enlarging and posting the pics for me.

Ben, Madas and Tienie,
thanks for your input .
any suggestions on what hen I should be looking for to pair up with this cock bird for 2014 season ?

ps I have a turquoise violet blue dom pied hen paired up to a cobalt cock , I might breed something out of this pair that i could use ?
any suggestions are welcome
this is the hen less than 12 months old
Image

this is the same hen now rising 2yo

Image
Image
Image
Image

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Gratz
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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Gratz » Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:36 pm

I agree with you it is an ef (sf) sl edged violet????? (very dark bird) and I support your theory of sl edged involved +++ could be responsible for the incredible beautiful phenotype of saddle back. AS mentioned hens will have a lighter phenotype. Attached a pic of my dblue harlequin hen. Notice her light phenotype and she is a proven ef dom pied. Tests in 2014 with dblueturq dom pied/opaline & sl edged-opaline/blue should answer some questions raised.
Tienie,
I know 2014 season is a long way , but it will be very interesting to see your results
incredible beautiful phenotype of saddle back
the camera cant capture this beauty to the extent that the naked eye can see, :shock:
puts a smile on my face every time I look at it :D

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Ring0Neck » Tue Jun 25, 2013 9:32 pm

Gratz
I have a turquoise violet blue dom pied hen paired up to a cobalt cock , I might breed something out of this pair that i could use ?


You can use any turquoise dom. pied hens from that hen or you can use her to pair up to the sl edged violet green male next year.
If theory is correct as assumed for saddleback you'll need these mutations:
sl edged, turquoise or ?indigo? & dom. pied harlequin


However, with all these mutations together we are also getting close to breeding white/yellow birds especially if we get df edged, and obviously df pied.

:!: What would be easier to prove or disprove the hypothesis is to see all young esp. non-pied offspring from a proven saddleback offspring. we should see edged young if theory is correct. anyone could get such pictures?

Here's a pic on Chris's website of an offspring bred from saddleback (assumed df harlequin and it might be)
this bird can be indeed just df pied and phenotype matches but it could also be sl edged pied instead.
Image
this bird is strikingly similar to my "white" pied /ct from my post CT X Pied
head is showing color and faint color on wings
we can also associate it with Tiennie's Sl edged ADM Pied (Tiennie i will load your pics below for reference)
Young sl edged adm pied hen Tiennie's
Image
and same bird 2 y old
Image
Now, when Tiennie added Turquoise, a totally magnificent bird (Tiennie hope you don't mind posting your pics, trying to make a point)
Image

Turquoise Sl edged ADM Pied combo will look slightly diff. to turq. edged harlequin pied and perhaps Indigo has a roll to play here?

from Chris's website a turq. grey df pied just for reference
http://www.mcw-indianringnecks.com.au/w ... onnors.jpg
Last edited by Ring0Neck on Tue Jun 25, 2013 9:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Gratz » Tue Jun 25, 2013 9:49 pm

Ben,

Thanks for you help, looks like we are getting somewhere

Thanks

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Recio » Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:13 am

Ring0Neck wrote:Gratz
I have a turquoise violet blue dom pied hen paired up to a cobalt cock , I might breed something out of this pair that i could use ?


You can use any turquoise dom. pied hens from that hen or you can use her to pair up to the sl edged violet green male next year.
If theory is correct as assumed for saddleback you'll need these mutations:
sl edged, turquoise or ?indigo? & dom. pied harlequin


However, with all these mutations together we are also getting close to breeding white/yellow birds especially if we get df edged, and obviously df pied.

:!: What would be easier to prove or disprove the hypothesis is to see all young esp. non-pied offspring from a proven saddleback offspring. we should see edged young if theory is correct. anyone could get such pictures?

Here's a pic on Chris's website of an offspring bred from saddleback (assumed df harlequin and it might be)
this bird can be indeed just df pied and phenotype matches but it could also be sl edged pied instead.
Image
this bird is strikingly similar to my "white" pied /ct from my post CT X Pied
head is showing color and faint color on wings
we can also associate it with Tiennie's Sl edged ADM Pied (Tiennie i will load your pics below for reference)
Young sl edged adm pied hen Tiennie's
Image
and same bird 2 y old
Image
Now, when Tiennie added Turquoise, a totally magnificent bird (Tiennie hope you don't mind posting your pics, trying to make a point)
Image

Turquoise Sl edged ADM Pied combo will look slightly diff. to turq. edged harlequin pied and perhaps Indigo has a roll to play here?

from Chris's website a turq. grey df pied just for reference
http://www.mcw-indianringnecks.com.au/w ... onnors.jpg
Hi Ben, Tienie, Gratz, Madas

Great analyse. Just to point something: the white bird suppossed to be DF dom pied (but that you say could also be DF sex linked edge) shows very dark bill, skin and nails. DF dom pied are supossed not to produce melanin due to a lack of melanocytes (and very often the only pied mark in heterozygous rec pieds birds is a white nail), so this bird would be unlike to be a DF dom pied. On the other hand sex linked dom edge is supossed to act only on feather distribution of melanin, allowing to keep a normal melanin deposition in the bill, skin and nails, as we can see in the pic. If sex linked edge was involved in the genetic make up of saddleback it would also help explaining the specific sex ratio of these birds.

Regards

Recio

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Ring0Neck » Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:10 am

Hi Recio,

Thanks for your input.
You said:
Great analyse. Just to point something: the white bird suppossed to be DF dom pied (but that you say could also be DF sex linked edge) shows very dark bill, skin and nails.


I did not mean to imply df edged, i believe sf edged combined with harlequin is enough to get white/yellow birds (hens only?).
We can see it in Tiennie's results with ADMs.

I am testing this theory this year with a pair: SL Edged Violetblue (/Cinn.? ) X Blue Harlequin pied hen.

PS It makes sense why turquoise is best used to pair up a saddleback to, it won't give you any white/yellow birds (white/yellow birds being sl edged pied without the parblue).


83IV

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Recio » Wed Jun 26, 2013 2:38 am

Hi Ben,

That is an idea to think about. I have not seen any edge bird bred from saddleback, even if people was not specifically testing to detect this mutation. In fact most of work was made looking for the presence of parblues in the genetic make up of saddlebacks, and, to do that, saddlebacks ware mated to blue series birds ... but not parblue nor edge bird were ever described in the offspring (as far as I know).

Regards

Recio

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Ring0Neck » Wed Jun 26, 2013 2:44 am

Recio,

The breeders reporting; How many know how to identify an sl edged? Can they show us pics of all offspring from a saddleback X blue ?
I guess that most OZ breeders won't be able to identify sl edged/or know of their existance and dispose of the bird as blue to pet market.

Still, if you've had honest reports from breeders on saddleback X blue and no white birds were bred, then it makes the idea less likely to be so.

saddlebacks ware mated to blue series birds ... but not parblue nor edge bird were ever described in the offspring (as far as I know).


Maybe because it could be Indigo and patches won't show before breeders discard of them.

Was there increased reports of DF Pied or Reverse Pied bred from Saddleback breeders?




Ben


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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by trabots » Wed Jun 26, 2013 7:50 am

ps I have a turquoise violet blue dom pied hen paired up to a cobalt cock , I might breed something out of this pair that i could use ?
any suggestions are welcome
this is the hen less than 12 months old
Is this not an IndigoBlue Violet Dom Pied? The TurquoiseBlue version is nowhere near as 'blue' and has much more scrambled egg on the back in my experience.

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Carr.birds » Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:49 am

Gratz, Ben, Recio, Willy, Stefan and other members


I am very fortunate that Chris was willing to help me with a df dom pied blue cock. Attached see pic

Image

The idea was to pair him to my sl edged adm pied hen from my red pied line

Image

Regards

Tienie

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Recio » Thu Jun 27, 2013 12:55 am

Hi Gratz;

First time I saw your avatar I knew there would be a post about it. Is it a saddleback or not? The true question is what are we calling saddleback? Is it a mutation or a specific combination of mutations? ... or is it just a phenotype which could be achieved by different mutation combinations? The day we will have answered these questions we will be able to use a common language when describing these birds with a specific psittacin distribution in the saddle area.

Till now we do not yet know if what we call "saddleback" is due to a specific type of parblue (certainly not Indigo as shown by psittacin distribution and intensity) combined with dom pied (SF) or SL dom Edge (DF) or a combination of SF dom pied and SF SL dom Edge with or without Opaline (or we can even add the rec pied as another mutation to combine with). To answer these questions we should pair the saddlebacks to wild green birds and to blue birds not split for anything trying to isolate the specific mutations producing this phenotype. Thereafter, whenever a new mutation is detected in the mix (ex: saddle parblue?) we should get the homozygous bird for this specific mutation, as Willy would say, and we should study its age and sex dependency expression, trying to better characterize the mutation respective to other parblue types.
This is a difficult task due to economic considerations.

Ben is rigth when considering that we never see the pics of every offspring of these birds but only the most "streaking" phenotypes or those which are usefull to hold with each breeders thougth, and also when considering that some birds are sold before they could develop the markings allowing to detect the specific mutations present in that bird..

Time will tell us, but in the meanwhile we can speculate trying to improve our understanding.

Recio

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Ring0Neck » Thu Jun 27, 2013 1:16 am

Hi Tiennie,
The idea was to pair him to my sl edged adm pied hen...


You should still do that pairing. Are you thinking to change ?
We'll have a lot to learn from their offspring.

The only downfall to that would possibly be a lot of white/yellow phenotypes, educational nontheless.



** Saddlebacks - Do we have Saddlebacks in both sexes? thinking of Sl edged hens would have a much lighter phenotype.




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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Recio » Thu Jun 27, 2013 3:57 am

Carr.birds wrote:Gratz, Ben, Recio, Willy, Stefan and other members


I am very fortunate that Chris was willing to help me with a df dom pied blue cock.
The idea was to pair him to my sl edged adm pied hen from my red pied line
Tienie
Hi Tienie,

From that pairing you will get:
100% males green SF dom pied SF sex linked edge / rec pied / blue
100% females green SF dom pied / rec pied / blue.

The males are expected to show a clear phenotype, but, for me, the most important outcome are the females: would split rec pied be able to increase piedness in a SF dom pied bird? ... or we could reformulate the question as follows: can a recessive mutation become visible in an heterozygous bird when combined with other mutations? This wanderfull idea comes from Johan and was developped as the S shape theory of colour expresion in the yahoo forum.

Regards

Recio

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Johan S » Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:44 am

Recio wrote: the S shape theory of colour expresion
The same curve came up earlier today in a discusison here: viewtopic.php?f=26&t=17319&p=96995#p96995 What a coincidence! :lol:

PS: I'm pretty sure Tienie's SL edged adm pied hen will be split blue.

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Gratz » Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:53 am

Recio,
Thank you for your time and effort to reply to my question,after reading your explanation and opinions on the saddleback I think will go with my first thoughts of pairing the cock bird to a plain blue or green,as my bird is a cock bird it would have to have been a huge fluke to get 2 Dom pied birds from the same breeder carrying the opaline gene,however in saying that the bird does show characteristics of an opaline ie: darker head , flights and black shafts on the tail feathers

Gratz

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Gratz » Thu Jun 27, 2013 6:04 am

Image

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Ring0Neck » Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:24 am


We might end up finding no relation between the edged & saddleback.

Phenotype comparisson: edged V saddleback it is rather strange how close saddleback gets to edged minus the saddle.

Below for reference
df Sl Edged df Indigo ?/?cinnamon male
either side (same bird) and Gratz's bird in the middle.
also using Hue/Sat Sys
http://parakeet.me/irn/f/compAL.jpg

http://parakeet.me/irn/f/compALred.jpg




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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Carr.birds » Thu Jun 27, 2013 12:04 pm

Ben, Gratz, Recio and Johan

Ben sorry for the confusion, I will keep the pair as mentioned. Unfortunately she is possible split blue or turq. I was working in the red pied line and believe you must keep in the green series. Recio I do think that some recessive mutations in heterozygous form in combination with an other mutation will display a different lighter phenotype. I own 2 green ef sl edged/adm pied cocks and both are a lighter phenotype compared to green ef sl edged. The flight feathers are more diluted.

ef sl edged/adm pied/turq

Image

Regards

Tienie
Last edited by Carr.birds on Thu Jun 27, 2013 12:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Carr.birds » Thu Jun 27, 2013 12:16 pm

Ben

From what I was told saddleback exist in both sexes but cocks are rare. Attached a young violet saddleback cock from Chris.

Image

Tienie

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Gratz » Thu Jun 27, 2013 3:35 pm

Ben,
Great work with the comparison
When I saw the first pic I immediately thought , yes the sl brings out the bright yellow,
But then when you put the pic thought the adjustment program I became aware that the yellow on the saddle was a different colour to that on the wings where as the wings on the birds have the same yellow,
Ben thanks for going to the trouble to do the comparisons,
Ps I wonder how my bird and the bird Tienie posted( violet saddleback) would compare ?
Knowing you Ben you are already doing that comparison :D

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Ring0Neck » Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:54 pm

Gratz

I have not seen a hen yet in Saddleback.

Comparison pics below.
Chris's bird shows more red since it is a violet.

to save to your computer right click and "save image as"

http://parakeet.me/irn/f/comp3.jpg

http://parakeet.me/irn/f/comp3red.jpg
------------------------------------
Recio
you asked a v. good question:
The true question is what are we calling saddleback? Is it a mutation or a specific combination of mutations? ... or is it just a phenotype which could be achieved by different mutation combinations?


On Chris's website we see many phenotypes bred from saddleback , could we conclude that more then 1 mutation is required to achieve a saddleback!?
one of which is harlequin, chris's pic of pied bred from saddleback
http://www.mcw-indianringnecks.com.au/w ... ghland.jpg

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Carr.birds » Thu Jun 27, 2013 9:46 pm

Gratz, Ben and Recio

Gratz for me there isn't any difference between the bird you posted and saddleback, but I am not the expert in saddlebacks. I will only be working with them from this season. My initial thoughts was harlequin + parblue (in 2011), but maybe some other mutation is also involved.

Can our Ozy friends indicate if any mutation appeared from pairing non harlequins bred from harlequin?

I will be testing this in 2014. 1,0 violet dblue/cleartail? & violet dgreen/adm pied/(blue or turq)

Gratz, Chris told me more saddleback females exist compared to males. On Chris's website you will find a matured violet saddleback hen. Will post pic I received from him tonight.

Tienie

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Gratz » Thu Jun 27, 2013 10:12 pm

Ben ,
thanks for doing the hue/sat comparison with the violet saddleback

Tienie,
thanks for your help and sharing your information
Gratz, Chris told me more saddleback females exist compared to males
Tienie, I believe the ratio from 2012 was around 20 hens and 3 cocks, that is the reason I thought that opaline had to have some influence on the saddleback, if this is the case the mother of the cock bird saddleback must be opaline harlequin and the cock bird at least split to opaline.
I would love to see the results from someone who can pair a turquoise harlequin cock with a opaline hen, this pairing may prove or discard some theories
unfortunately I don't have a mature haliquin cock or an opaline hen :(

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Ring0Neck » Thu Jun 27, 2013 10:33 pm

Hi Gratz,

I don't mean to extinguish your hope for Opaline in Saddlebacks however all offspring i have seen so far from a saddleback i have not seen an opaline yet.
If a male saddleback carried opaline, all hens would be opaline, so it is not that hard to conclude either way after 1 breeding season.

Harlequin pieds have a darker head as do opalines do but other than that no visual similarites to me.

main thing opalines have is light markings on wing feathers
http://psittacula-world.com/EN/Mutation ... paline.htm


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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Gratz » Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:23 pm

Thanks Ben,

it would be good to find out what is responsible for the saddleback appearance,
I guess only time and forums like this will enable us to get to the bottom of it,

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Ring0Neck » Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:34 pm

I think we are getting close to cracking it.

Need some help though.
*** Pics will be removed soon as they are not mine !!!

Below a green harlequin (father) but its phenotype is not what a green pied looks like.(mother parblue grey)
You will see two young he bred and their phenotype is different to one another.
Q is: The 1 with wing patterns is he carrying a minor pied gene modifier or another mutation? same goes for father that could qualify as sl edged harlequin IMO.

the yellow one is the harlequin pattern as we know it.

Your input is appreciated as i believe this is the key to saddleback once parblue is added.

father
Image

sibling 1
Image

sibling 2 "yellow" (grey green pied)
Image




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Gratz
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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Gratz » Sun Jun 30, 2013 1:53 am

Hi Ben,
Yes I think you are on the right track,the father has the saddle pattern that seems to be caused from the sl edge same as the other bird you did the hue/ sat comparison with , same wing pattern less the saddle ( maybe due to the fact that it blended in with the colour of the bird)

The interesting thing for me is the black or dark markings on the young birds wing and tail , especially now that we have the pic that Tienie posted for us of the violet Saddleback , it has the colour in the tail

Good work Ben and everyone else who has had some input on this topic

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Recio » Sun Jun 30, 2013 3:20 am

Sorry,

Maybe I am misssing something ... but for me the saddle pattern consists on a lack of melanin on the saddle area, so that the yellow psittacin in this area becomes apparent. The father has a solid green colour on the saddle area ... this means that melanin is present ... so it does not meet Saddleback definition.

Regards

Recio

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Gratz » Sun Jun 30, 2013 3:40 am

Hi Recio

I may have misinterpret what Ben meant , I actually thought he was looking at the pattern rather than the colour then finding the right combination to bring the the yellow into the saddle pattern

My apologies

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Ring0Neck » Sun Jun 30, 2013 4:07 am

Recio,

Just to be clear neither of these birds are saddleback.

I was merely asking what everyone thought of the 2 diff. pied phenotypes as it could potentially lead us to saddleback's genetic makeup and perhaps we can develop from there.


Concentrating on saddleback's offspring which is an array of birds of diff. pheno & genotypes might not be enough to conclude anything.
The "bred from saddleback" birds listed on Chris's website we can see all sorts of pheotypes and it's not giving us the complete clue.

Gratz, no need to apologize, you're right in what you thought i'm saying. I'm looking in reverse. Finding the harlequin that could with additional mutation/s prodce saddlebacks.


I am certain Saddleback is not 1 mutation, offspring bred from saddleback proves that. They are labelled "bred from saddleback".

I am not all that excited about saddleback, i just like the challenge finding it's gen. makeup.



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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Recio » Sun Jun 30, 2013 5:29 am

Hi Ben,

I can not find the pics of "bred from saddleback" listed on Chris's website. Could you redirect me to this specific page?

Thanks

Recio

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Ring0Neck » Sun Jun 30, 2013 5:51 am

Recio,

They are not grouped together, here are some i found on Chris's website.
Some are named and i guess they could be Saddleback although not the phenotype we'd expect to see.


http://www.mcw-indianringnecks.com.au/w ... 1_babu.jpg
http://www.mcw-indianringnecks.com.au/w ... ghland.jpg
http://www.mcw-indianringnecks.com.au/w ... ghland.jpg
http://www.mcw-indianringnecks.com.au/w ... nsmith.jpg
http://www.mcw-indianringnecks.com.au/w ... leback.jpg
http://www.mcw-indianringnecks.com.au/w ... ghland.jpg


You said:
Maybe I am misssing something ... but for me the saddle pattern consists on a lack of melanin on the saddle area, so that the yellow psittacin in this area becomes apparent.

as i understand it the saddle pattern seems to become more visible as bird matures and less so when young. this could imply parblue being present, additionally supporting the parblue idea is the green series saddlebacks missing the yellow saddle.

This as Chris says is a saddleback but still missing the yellow saddle area which should increase visually as bird matures.
second last picture. Violet saddleback.
http://www.mcw-indianringnecks.com.au/for-sale/

PS- Someone found this pic on FB as TurqBL pallid
Image

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Ring0Neck » Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:07 pm

Bob was kind enough to provide us with pic of the saddleback that was on Chris's website (first pic)
she was paired to a blue= offspring: 2 blue males and a saddleback hen bred 2012
Mother is currently on eggs with the blue male
Image


Image

Image

Image

Image


Below for comparisson i have added a violet turquoise violetblue pied just feathering up.

http://parakeet.me/irn/f/piedturqvioletaron.jpg

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Ring0Neck » Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:09 am

From conversations with Bob :
The saddleback (SB for short)
SB hen X Blue male
offspring: 2 blue males (i asked and he confirmed normal blues)
and one SB hen

This breeding result cancels out the option of SL Edged being involved !

Bob's thoughts on SB: "Ben, my thoughts, a unique mutation at the moment, not turquoise, I am leaning towards a parblue..."

time will tell but i concur with Bob for now.


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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Chriskoi » Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:19 pm

I think These pics could help with your discussion:

dilute turq:

Image


opaline turq:

Image

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Ring0Neck » Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:27 pm

:shock:
Thanks a lot Chriskoi ! It sure does.

New questions will follow with these pics.
Ex: is your turquoise bloodline making the saddleback effect?
It seems to be since you have opaline & dilute with saddle.

Would you have a picture of a plain turquoise from same bloodline?
How old are the birds in the first pic? did they have same phenotype when young?

Tiennie, what is your opinion?
you have Dilute.

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Johan S » Mon Sep 02, 2013 12:36 am

Thanks for these pics, Chriskoi. It does clearly show that there is a specific type of parblue that can cause a saddle effect. I love those dilutes!

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by John Shannon » Mon Sep 02, 2013 6:01 am

Hi to group
All lines lead back to the green for the saddle .The modifying genes make the saddle ,eg: Turquoise first .Than the Rec Dilute and the edged Rec or sex linked. these birds may not be true pied or are pieds a combination of the rest.
Just my thoughts John s.

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Carr.birds » Mon Sep 02, 2013 11:26 am

Ben

I have bred many turq dilute & turq/dilute birds with a nice saddle in year one, after 15 month moult the turq will spread to the mantle area. Some will keep the saddle area till the 27 month moult.

Attached some pics of a blueturq opaline/adm pied bred from a blueturq/opaline & adm pied/blue (red line). I know discovered after 6 years of breeding that the (Belgium) imported blueturq/opaline cock is split dilute as well.

Image


Image

Image

I can confirm that there is a huge difference in phenotype between a saddleback (dom pied) and blueturq dilute with a saddle.

Tienie

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Johan S » Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:03 am

Carr.birds wrote:I can confirm that there is a huge difference in phenotype between a saddleback (dom pied) and blueturq dilute with a saddle.

Tienie
Tienie, but what about mature "saddlebacks". From the pictures I have seen from Oz breeders, they've had a saddle when young and that saddle spread quite a lot when mature. Are you saying there is a stable version where the saddle remains, and that this is actually the true "saddleback" and different from the parblues (as in your picture)?

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Gratz » Tue Sep 03, 2013 5:25 am

Johan

Just a quick note on my observations,from what I have seen all so named saddlebacks seem to get colour back in their tail feathers as they mature,not sure if this is the case in all saddlebacks or dominant pieds .and yes they do seem to have more colour spread over their back but you can still see the shape of the saddle as it is more concentrate and slightly darker colour than the rest that has spread.
Looking forward to seeing what Tienie has to say.

Regards
Gratz

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Carr.birds » Tue Sep 03, 2013 8:25 am

Johan & Gratz

No, I am not saying a saddle remain in matured birds. What I am saying it isn't just a plain turq dom pied. I don't think saddleback is the correct name. Attached see a pic of a 2012 (1 yr old) violet saddleback cock. You can clearly see the deep bright yellow (originally) limited to the saddle area is already spreading to the mantle area.

Image

As mentioned before in discussions I am willing to give my opinion once I have tested the mutation/(combination of mutations).

Tienie

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Gratz » Tue Sep 03, 2013 3:03 pm

Tienie

Thanks for posting that last photo
It is exactly what I was trying to explain to Johan
But as they say
A picture speaks a thousand words
I don't think anyone out there would say that that bird is normal dominant pied

Gratz

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Indian Ringneck Vic » Sat Sep 28, 2013 5:23 pm

Chriskoi

Like your dilutes, would like to talk to you about them, however site anti spam won't let me, Can you please contact me.

Cheers
Paul

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by madas » Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:55 pm

Some more saddlebacks of Europe (not Babu):

Image

Nothing more then a dom. pied turq violet cobalt. :) So for me the saddleback thing is solved. Your thoughts?

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Johan S » Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:33 am

Madas, I agree that the bird you posted is a violet turq dom. pied. However, is it the same thing as saddleback, or just a similar phenotype created by a combination? I suppose time will tell. I have always thought that it is a combination, but I'm hoping there is something more there. Would be nice to have something else to play with.

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Recio » Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:43 am

Hi Johan,

I agree with Madas, but probably the parblue involved is not just turquoise but another parblue allele (saddle parblue?) with a specific distribution in the saddle area, as shown by Criskoi pics (labelled as turquoise dilute), and which is enhanced by the presence of dom pied (lack of melanocytes in the patched areas allowing an increase in psittacin expression).

Regards

Recio

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by mcw-indianringnecks » Tue Nov 05, 2013 6:43 pm

G,Day Tienie , I can send you a simple Violet Emerold hen to test breed to your violet saddleback cock to, this will give you stunning babies , and good test results.
My new web site should be completed before the weekend , Hope it answers some of your theories. Feel free to use pictures from my web site on this forum
Note , There are only 5 diluate,s in Oz and they have never been mated to saddleback or Harlequin.
There are no SL Edge in Oz that im aware of ,so should have never been mated to saddlebacks or Harlequin .
From my Violet Saddleback hen ,I bred Tienies Violet Saddleback cock .,,.,From Phil Highlands Violet Saddleback Cock He breed his baby Violet Saddleback cock ,,Note both birds are mate to green Harlequins ,So no Opaline effecting these matings.
So i beleive No Opaline ,No SL Edge and No Dilute?
When you look at most pictures you will see most have no saddle,except people using there name to describe Turquoise Harlequins
P,S. I dont beleive there is Turquoise in Saddlebacks ,it doesnt act the same as my birds .
Deon beleives the essence of saddlebacks are in there richness of colour .
Phil and i have only bred 3 saddlebacks each we have only sold 1 each since 2009 , People that are selling saddlebacks are most likely only selling Turquoise Harlequins,If your interested in Saddlebacks from these dealers ask the Question are they bred from Turquoise or will they reproduce Turquoise as Saddlebacks Arent and Wont.
I beleive like Emerold they are simply a new par blue????????????

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Ring0Neck » Tue Nov 05, 2013 6:53 pm

Hi Chris,

Thanks for posting your thoughts/views on Saddleback. It helps a lot to hear from someone that has the saddlebacks.

you said:
There are no SL Edge in Oz that im aware of


We have edged here in OZ. Till last year i've been saying the same but there's some about.
Here's my Turquoise Edged.
pic is too large to post so click the picture link below
http://parakeet.me/irn/f/dftuqEdged.jpg
& turquoiseblue cinnamon edged x blue edged
http://parakeet.me/irn/f/edge/edgepair.jpg

I have edged in violet, turquoise, blue, grey with and without cinnamon

I have paired the violet edged x blue pied this season unfortunately only 1 chick survived, looks like it's going to be a violet egded. no pied edged as yet.


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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by trabots » Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:44 pm

Ben, I had a couple of 'Dom' Edged birds around 10 years ago when they were known as 'fallows' and supposedly all cocks were split Cinnamon. You probably know the story. The image you just posted http://parakeet.me/irn/f/dftuqEdged.jpg is stunning however please try and get me interested as all I have ever seen is the 'lacewing' effect as being different. In my mind, why take away the lovely colours in the wing just to get the 'lacewing'? What other parts of the SL Edged bird are affected?

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Ring0Neck » Tue Nov 05, 2013 10:34 pm

trabots wrote:Ben, I had a couple of 'Dom' Edged birds around 10 years ago when they were known as 'fallows' and supposedly all cocks were split Cinnamon. You probably know the story.
That's exactly right. it was also concluded wrongly that this fallow will only be present when cinnamon is also present in the birds genetic makeup. Clearly not the case.

Also, it is important to understand that once breeders that could identify this mutation gave up on working with it due to cinnamon connection other breeders always mistaken it for cinnamon and eliminated it from breeding.
At fault must be the hens :D because of thier phenotype is similar to df edged males , confusing the matter further.

I have a very good example;
Breeder friend has a pair of lavenders pic below bred from violet parents no cobalt:
http://parakeet.me/irn/f/cinnamon.jpg

I thought surely he has a lavender hen x lilac male
i went to his place again and looked at the young chick's flights he is handfeeing from them and bingo edged

clearly breeders mistake edged for cinnamon.

Tiennie has a large collection of edged through most mutations.
He could post some pics for us.
here is his CHF blue Edged - add turquoise n violet/deep/dark to that and it'll rival best looking ringneck mutations IMO
Image

I personally don't mind lighter colors. there's beauty in them too.

Emerald is an average looking bird, nothing to rave about, however once combined with other mutations ...different story :shock:

Take white flights as a feature; we could work with in getting a combo that's dark body and white flights
(1st and last bird in the pic below)
http://parakeet.me/irn/f/edge/edgez.jpg

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by trabots » Wed Nov 06, 2013 12:42 am

Great response Ben. Cheers.

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Chriskoi » Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:16 am

mcw-indianringnecks wrote: When you look at most pictures you will see most have no saddle,except people using there name to describe Turquoise Harlequins
P,S. I dont beleive there is Turquoise in Saddlebacks ,it doesnt act the same as my birds .
Sorry but when i look at this pic of your so called "saddleback" offspring i can't see a yellow saddle area too.

Image

So please can you explain it to us??? This bird is fitting the phenotype of the bird madas has posted.
The European type is showing the same ritchness in the yellow areas. Which in deed could be caused
by another Mutation involved. Remember the father of the European type is split opaline for sure.

greetings.

Chriskoi

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by mcw-indianringnecks » Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:10 am

saddleback is simply the wrong name for these birds
Attachments
35 SADDLEBACK VS  TURQUOISE HARLEQUIN_ underUV light.jpg

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Johan S » Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:35 am

mcw-indianringnecks wrote:saddleback is simply the wrong name for these birds
Hi Chris, are the above birds the same age?

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Johan S » Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:43 am

mcw-indianringnecks wrote:...
P,S. I dont beleive there is Turquoise in Saddlebacks ,it doesnt act the same as my birds .
...
I beleive like Emerold they are simply a new par blue????????????
Chris can you help clarify these two statements please. To me they seem a bit of a contradiction. First you say that saddleback and turquoise act differently. Seeing as turquoise acts like any blue locus allele, I'm not following why you would first say they don't act the same and then follow that by saying saddleback is a new parblue. Are they acting differently, or the same? Perhaps you are referring to a phenotypic similarity and a genetically different :?: But rather than me speculating, I'd rather await your response.

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Chriskoi » Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:57 am

mcw-indianringnecks wrote:saddleback is simply the wrong name for these birds
thx for your detailed answer.

Same bird in both pics but photographed under different angel and different UV light.
saddleback_muck.jpg
saddleback muck
Cheers.

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by mcw-indianringnecks » Wed Nov 06, 2013 5:03 am

same bird at 3mths & 8 mths.jpg

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Ring0Neck » Wed Nov 06, 2013 5:10 am

Chris,

What i would love to see is the blues & violets etc non saddleback siblings, more specifically thier flights/wing stretched if possible.

IMO, it's the easy way to rule out Edged, dilute etc...

Bob also confirmed that no Turquoise was bred from his Saddleback, did not get an update from him about this breeding season.

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by mcw-indianringnecks » Wed Nov 06, 2013 5:17 am

The pic under uv has a saddleback on the left and turquoise harlequin on the right .
In Deons book from memory he says that the essence of saddleback lies in the intensity deepth or richness in there colour something along those lines.
Im rebuilding my new web site theres 40 odd pics on there about saddlebacks ,this site may use those photoes for there discussion ,Ill wait until then before entering further comments.I thought it would be complete today ,i was told by the end of the month

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Carr.birds » Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:01 pm

Chris

Thanks for sharing you experience and opinion with us. Forum members please give Chris an opportunity to share his point of view. Currently there is very little information available and this is the only way we can learn from a saddleback breeder. If you don’t agree with his statements and can’t proof your point with breeding results, simply keep quiet and don’t get involved in fights similar to Terry’s group.
I do own a lovely violet saddleback and you should know by now I do share my results and experience with all other Forum members. If all go according to plan next year’s results will be shared with you.
Ben thanks for all your input regarding sl edged. It is a lovely mutation and combination with other mutations result in awesome phenotypes.

Pics will be send tonight from home.

Tienie

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Recio » Thu Nov 07, 2013 1:41 am

Carr.birds wrote:Chris

Thanks for sharing you experience and opinion with us. Forum members please give Chris an opportunity to share his point of view. Currently there is very little information available and this is the only way we can learn from a saddleback breeder. If you don’t agree with his statements and can’t proof your point with breeding results, simply keep quiet and don’t get involved in fights similar to Terry’s group.
I do own a lovely violet saddleback and you should know by now I do share my results and experience with all other Forum members. If all go according to plan next year’s results will be shared with you.
Ben thanks for all your input regarding sl edged. It is a lovely mutation and combination with other mutations result in awesome phenotypes.

Pics will be send tonight from home.

Tienie
Just to say thank you Tienie. Some keys to avoid "fighting" like in Terry's group:
1. Use smilies : half of the message is lost in our posts because we can not use our corporal language and this can be misunderstood by others :wink:
2. Avoid comments or reference to the person ... just comment on results. Ex: do not say "Your birds ..." but something like "In those birds ..."
3. Do not loose the oportunity to say : "I agree ...." even if thereafter you must add "but ... ".
4.Do not forget that we are all here for learning = we are all teachers and pupils at the same time.
5. Read your posts many times and correct your expressions to be fully understood. Try to look at your post from the point of view of the other person. Try to avoid expressions with many possible meanings (many of us are not english speaking people).
6. If you ever feel that somebody is atacking you ... do not quickly answer, read the post again and again, try to relax ... and answer 2-3 days later. You will avoid fire!!!

I know that this "code" is already being used by many of us. Thank you to all you.

Recio

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Carr.birds » Thu Nov 07, 2013 2:53 am

Recio

Great, thanks for the tips/advice. We will all try to make everybody feel welcome and participate.

Tienie :D

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by trabots » Thu Nov 07, 2013 4:02 pm

Recio and Tienie, great advise which I, as one half of most arguments (me against the rest) on Terry's forum, and final winner of a couple of major topics, hope to follow on this great forum. I know, "arrogance", ignore my short comings and digest the message. Now how about a quick lesson on how to use the smilies? I tried to drag them over and copy and paste, to no avail.

Chris, I am so glad you are now contributing. Surely you know of someone who has bred EmeraldTurquoise x Blue, ignoring any other mutations which may or may not have been involved?

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by mcw-indianringnecks » Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:03 pm

Some people beleive you cant breed straight emerold turquoise. ,Although my old mate Gary has sold them,Maybey Mike or Recio can explain the genetics on this?
I know 2 that have breed Emerold Turquoise Cleartails 1 is a big breeder now suffering illness, so his records are non - usuable.
And Mike who has been posting under the emerold post ,,,,
His results support my thoughts and that of Wills {G,Day Willy ] That emerold is a par or new par blue ,the same as i beleive there is a new par blue in saddleback.
Willy once beleived there could be a number of unrecognized par blues?
Mikes results 2 Turquoise Cleartails 5 Emerold Cleartails to low a number to be possative ,But no Blue Cleartails and thats the key.

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by sheyd » Thu Nov 07, 2013 7:49 pm

trabots wrote:Now how about a quick lesson on how to use the smilies? I tried to drag them over and copy and paste, to no avail.
jumping in.. Willy the smilies only need to be clicked on to appear in your post- once you've finished writing click a smilie to end your sentence or place the cursor where you wish it to be (as if you were going to edit your finished sentence for example, and click on the smilie you'd like to use.

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by trabots » Thu Nov 07, 2013 7:57 pm

Thanks Sheyd, so simple, I am always looking for the hardest solution.

Chris, g'day too,

If Emerald is Parblue

EmeraldBlue x TurquoiseBlue =

25% Blue
25% EmeraldBlue
25% TurquoiseBlue
25% EmeraldTurquoise

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by mcw-indianringnecks » Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:03 pm

Thats the results id expect as well , but its been explained to me why it genetically doesnt work as expected, id like Mike or Recio to comment,
Attachments
17a turquoise emerald cleartail.JPG

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by madas » Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:12 am

mcw-indianringnecks wrote: That emerold is a par or new par blue ,the same as i beleive there is a new par blue in saddleback.
As Johan wrote here you (sorry here is must write "you" because Chris is believing :D ) are referring to a wrongly usage of the meaning "parblue". A parblue mutation is simply a mutation of the b-locus. If "saddleback" is a true parblue mutation you (meant generally) should get the same phenotype among the non pied offspring then breed to a normal blue or other Mutation of the b-locus. Means you (meant generally) will get non-pied "turquoise" looking offspring. But you (sorry here is must write "you" because Chris is believing :D ) state for years that this is not the case. So either "saddleback" isn't a parblue Mutation or the breeders of the "saddleback" hide the "turquoise" looking non-pied offspring.

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Indian Ringneck Vic » Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:42 am

Chriskoi wrote:
mcw-indianringnecks wrote:saddleback is simply the wrong name for these birds
thx for your detailed answer.

Same bird in both pics but photographed under different angel and different UV light.
saddleback_muck.jpg
Cheers.
Fantastic having worked with artificial lighting all my caree and have experience with u.v. lighting as well other stage lighting in Disco's and nightclubs I've aggonized over the value of using this medium for this purpose I know that I can give you the result you want purely by malnipulating the sauce and background lighting 10 out of 10 although I promised to stay unaminous on this forum I could'nt let this slip.

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by mcw-indianringnecks » Fri Nov 08, 2013 1:14 am

since 2009 when phil and i received our saddlebacks we have both breed 3 saddlebacks each , we have both sold only 1 bird each + 1 i gave to a friend for his birthday.Neither of us has breed any Turquoise looking birds , From the green series birds that we did produce [from saddleback ] . From there breeding results were No SL Edge ,No Turquoise No Dilutes and unfortunatley No Saddlebacks , I dont hide things. Pictures of every bird weve ever breed are on my new web site , Nest to what ever age that was possable.
There was 1 exception 1 Violetgreen Harlequin breed from saddleback was breed to a Turquoise Grey producing 4 Turquoise looking babies , But said to be unusually bright.[not in my control ].

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by madas » Fri Nov 08, 2013 1:19 am

mcw-indianringnecks wrote:since 2009 when phil and i received our saddlebacks we have both breed 3 saddlebacks each , we have both sold only 1 bird each + 1 i gave to a friend for his birthday.Neither of us has breed any Turquoise looking birds , From the green series birds that we did produce [from saddleback ] . From there breeding results were No SL Edge ,No Turquoise No Dilutes and unfortunatley No Saddlebacks , I dont hide things. Pictures of every bird weve ever breed are on my new web site , Nest to what ever age that was possable.
There was 1 exception 1 Violetgreen Harlequin breed from saddleback was breed to a Turquoise Grey producing 4 Turquoise looking babies , But said to be unusually bright.[not in my control ].
Yeah, but then you can't speak of a parblue mutation in the context of "saddleback". That's the Intention behind Johans and my Posts. ;)
btw: if i remember correct you are in close contact with Babu and perhaps you have adopted his point of view that saddleback is a new parblue mutation. But we all know Babu isn't interested in findings regarding new mutations as Lee made clear (the Dhani Topic). So don't believe every thing which is indoctrinated to you by other breeders.

So lets wait what your new website is showing in the saddleback section. :D

PS: Great to have you here. ;)
Last edited by madas on Fri Nov 08, 2013 1:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Ring0Neck » Fri Nov 08, 2013 1:21 am

But said to be unusually bright.[not in my control ].
If these bright birds were hens then we can not eliminate Sl Edged
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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by mcw-indianringnecks » Fri Nov 08, 2013 1:51 am

As ive said for years i dont beleive Turquoise is involved.
So what else but a new par blue could be responsable for there richness of colour and yellow projessive colouring.
So far its beleived ive misheld information and used artifisual light to maluniplate photoes ..
I suppose its ok for people around the world to sell turquoise harlequins as saddlebacks ,, well why not just sell them as turquoise harlequins.
Sort of remember now why i dont post on Forums

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by madas » Fri Nov 08, 2013 1:57 am

mcw-indianringnecks wrote:As ive said for years i dont beleive Turquoise is involved.
Maybe it is a "turq" mutation of another locus but not the b-locus. If this is the truth you simply can't name it a parblue. ;)

parblue = any mutation resp. Multi allele of the b-locus

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Chriskoi » Fri Nov 08, 2013 2:15 am

mcw-indianringnecks wrote: So what else but a new par blue could be responsable for there richness of colour and yellow projessive colouring.
I suppose its ok for people around the world to sell turquoise harlequins as saddlebacks ,, well why not just sell them as turquoise harlequins.
Hi,

i don't want to start the same fight as in the yahoo group. But please then answer this simple question:

Why do the "turq" dom. pieds breed in Europe and by Amaroo Avaries in OZ show the same richness of yellow color?

For the one from Europe i know for sure the bird was breed out of dom. pied green /blue /opaline x turq violet cobalt. The dom. pied
father is an import from the UK. Out of the stock of the late Mr. Smith who unfortunately passed away 2 or 3 years ago. The breeder
is Gerrit Wesseling from the Netherlands. So feel free to contact him.

greetings.

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by mcw-indianringnecks » Fri Nov 08, 2013 2:47 am

I cant explain it but theres no turquoise or opaline in our birds,thats the point of the forum, to help to do that.
When i breed DF Emerold i was aquised of being a liar as its genetically not possable to breed df emerold.
When Phil showed pics of his first saddleback nest ,they said dont buy saddlebacks they produce black eyed albinos.
I* love the idea of the Forum and your right we dont want to end up as the gen site did So simply im done .
If your happy buying turquoise harlequins as saddlebacks how am i to say otherwise, ive sold 1 saddleback in four years so obvisiouly its all about the money A.
Hopefully my web site will be complete buy the end of the month all i have to say will be on there +all the pictures i have,If your interested take a look , if anybody wants to use pictures from my site on this forum yous have my permission.
Best Wishes Chris

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Johan S » Fri Nov 08, 2013 3:57 am

Chris, I think you misunderstand the question posed to you by some of the members and it is causing unnecessary friction when you repeatedly get hammered by the same question in different ways. I don't think the intention here is to put you in a bad but, and if it is, everybody just needs to relax so that we can get to understand one another better. Most here is anxious about learning about the mutation, or combination of mutations, whichever it will prove to be and I am happy that you have joined. In this forum the word turquoise has been used very loosely to describe all parblues, like pastel of old, but also in the very formal sense as a single of multiple parblue alleles. I, for one, am unsure how you use the term. You say no turquoise is present in 'saddleback', yet you also say you believe it is a type of parblue. That is a very confusing standpoint.

I think what would clarify things is a simple yes/no answer to the follow question: Do you think that, given enough offspring, you will eventually breed a bird looking like this (ignore the opaline):
Image

Or this one:
Image

These are parblues for sure. And they display a saddle during their 'teenage years'. We are just trying to establish whether they are part of the saddleback mystery, or not.

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by madas » Fri Nov 08, 2013 4:03 am

mcw-indianringnecks wrote: I cant explain it but theres no turquoise or opaline in our birds,thats the point of the forum, to help to do that.
Ok. Hopefully we will find out. Tienie is doing a great testjob. So nice that you sold a "saddleback" to him. :)
mcw-indianringnecks wrote: When i breed DF Emerold i was aquised of being a liar as its genetically not possable to breed df emerold.
I think it wasn't a member of this forum. For sure it is possible when emerald is a parblue mutation which should be proved by the breeding results of Mikes cleartail violet cobalt x cleartail turq emerald breeding pair. But i would say lets wait for the offspring of the next season of the same pair. If he still gets no normal blue offspring then we could say emerald is a parblue.
mcw-indianringnecks wrote: When Phil showed pics of his first saddleback nest ,they said dont buy saddlebacks they produce black eyed albinos.
They were not wrong at all. If paired to another dom. pied they can produce homozyguos dom. pieds which look like albinos with black eyes. But same is true for non "saddleback" dom. pieds.
mcw-indianringnecks wrote: I* love the idea of the Forum and your right we dont want to end up as the gen site did So simply im done .
Oh come on. Willy was faced with the same fight at yahoo but he is still with us. And further more he never has given up and provided breeding and test results every year. So it is up to the owner resp. breeder of a new Mutation to prove or disprove the genetic makeup. Or find some one who is willing to do the job (Tienie or Deon or ...). We all know testing could only be done with a lot of aviary space.
mcw-indianringnecks wrote: Hopefully my web site will be complete buy the end of the month all i have to say will be on there +all the pictures i have,If your interested take a look , if anybody wants to use pictures from my site on this forum yous have my permission.
Best Wishes Chris
thx. hope we find some interesting stuff to develope our idea of the saddleback Makeup.

Cheers.

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Ring0Neck » Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:40 am

Criskoi
For the one from Europe i know for sure the bird was breed out of dom. pied green /blue /opaline x turq violet cobalt.

do you happen to have a pic of the bird your referring to?
or is it the one Madas posted earlier?

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Indian Ringneck Vic » Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:56 pm

mcw-indianringnecks wrote:As ive said for years i dont beleive Turquoise is involved.
So what else but a new par blue could be responsable for there richness of colour and yellow projessive colouring.
So far its beleived ive misheld information and used artifisual light to maluniplate photoes ..
I suppose its ok for people around the world to sell turquoise harlequins as saddlebacks ,, well why not just sell them as turquoise harlequins.
Sort of remember now why i dont post on Forums
Chris I hope you have'nt misunderstood my earlier post it is not my intention to direct any comment at you or in relation to the information in your post. My comment is directed purely at the use of U.V.light in order to high-light feather characteristics of birds.I know you as well as most other forum members are in favour of this practice and thats fine however I consider it futile,for what it's worth I agree with your comments in regard to using public forums and I agree that people like you and I would be better keeping out of them have faith we are not alone sorry if I offended you.

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by mcw-indianringnecks » Sat Nov 09, 2013 4:55 pm

Gratz the only picture i dont have for my web site is that showing change in colour from young to old of your type of saddleback , could you please post those pics to me .I beleive you have my email adress.

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Gratz » Sat Nov 09, 2013 8:38 pm

Image

Hi Chris

This is the only photo I have of the bird when it fledged.

Chris, and everyone reading this I will point out that I never stated that my bird is a Saddleback, I did mention that I purchased the bird as a Turquoise Blue Dom Pied, The question I was asking is what is the makeup of a Saddleback and how do you know if you have one

kind regards
Gratz

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by mcw-indianringnecks » Sat Nov 09, 2013 11:45 pm

Can you send me this baby pic + your first pic + a resent pic if possable to my email chris@mcw-indianringnecks.com.au its the only way i can save pictures
Thanks
Chris

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Chriskoi » Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:39 pm

This is the first clutch breed by GW from the Netherlands out of dom. pied green /opaline x turq cobalt violet:

Image

Image

Left opaline green and right some kind of "dom. pied". But what kind of mutation is the bird in the middle???
Don't tell me it's a dom. pied. My bet it is a opaline SL Edged green.

btw: all three birds were females.

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Johan S » Tue Nov 12, 2013 12:00 am

If that bird in the middle is a hen, it could be cinnamon? Flight feathers look brownish and barb of the tail feather is very light. Just guessing here though.

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by madas » Tue Nov 12, 2013 12:13 am

Johan S wrote:If that bird in the middle is a hen, it could be cinnamon? Flight feathers look brownish and barb of the tail feather is very light. Just guessing here though.
Hi Johan,

do you mean "pur" cinnamon? Or cinnamon SL Edged?

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Ring0Neck » Tue Nov 12, 2013 12:21 am

Could also be a cinnamon opaline hen?
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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Johan S » Tue Nov 12, 2013 1:43 am

Sorry Madas, I meant to say carrying the cinnamon gene, not only cinnamon green, for which this bird is way too light. Probably cinnamon opaline like Ben suggested.

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by madas » Tue Nov 12, 2013 5:17 am

Johan S wrote:Sorry Madas, I meant to say carrying the cinnamon gene, not only cinnamon green, for which this bird is way too light. Probably cinnamon opaline like Ben suggested.
Hm, don't think it's a opaline cinnamon combo. I think such a bird should show the typical opaline pattern in the wings because cinnamon isn't able to remove them. Furthermore cinnamon isn't causing such light flight feathers. Here is a pic of nice cinnamon (left; unaltered) and a cinnamon opaline look a like (right; same pic as left but modified with Paint .Net):

ImageImage

Perhaps Tienie could comment on the bird in the middle. I think he has combined SL edged and opaline within the last years.

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by madas » Tue Nov 12, 2013 7:13 am

Johan S wrote:Sorry Madas, I meant to say carrying the cinnamon gene, not only cinnamon green, for which this bird is way too light. Probably cinnamon opaline like Ben suggested.
May be opaline cinnamon SL Edged green. :)

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Carr.birds » Tue Nov 12, 2013 11:17 am

Stefan

I would go for cinnamon sl edged opaline or misty cinnamon sl edged opaline

Tienie

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Carr.birds » Tue Nov 12, 2013 11:38 am

I am struggling with photobucket to load pics. Will try again tomorrow

Tienie

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Johan S » Wed Nov 13, 2013 12:50 am

The only thing that concerns me is that the parent birds are then reported incorrectly. A hidden cinnamon gene in the cock bird could still pass through, but adding SL edged to that as well will be very hard to find. It means the green dom. pied / opaline is actually a green dom. pied SL edged / opaline / cinnamon. Isn't that a bit of a stretch? :?:

PS: @Madas, well done on some excellent paint.net skills! That cinnamon-opaline looks wonderful! :lol:

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Ring0Neck » Sun Jan 26, 2014 11:47 pm

Chriskoi wrote:This is the first clutch breed by GW from the Netherlands out of dom. pied green /opaline x turq cobalt violet:

Image

Image

Left opaline green and right some kind of "dom. pied". But what kind of mutation is the bird in the middle???
Don't tell me it's a dom. pied. My bet it is a opaline SL Edged green.

btw: all three birds were females.

greetings.

after seeing a few green birds in opaline pieds as well as dark green pieds i think the hens were"

Left to Right: Green Opaline - Green Opaline Pied - Dark Green Pied.
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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Johan S » Mon Jan 27, 2014 12:31 am

Ben, my first question for that would be, if pied dilutes the back and coverts of the bird, and opaline dilutes the back and coverts of the bird, how come the opaline pied shows more colour in the back and coverts than just the pied alone, i.e. does opaline darken a pied? This hasn't happened in dilute opaline combinations, neither in SL edged opaline combinations. I wonder why pied would be different? Thoughts?

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by madas » Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:01 am

opaline green, opaline SL Edged green???, "dom. pied" dark green???

bird in the middle isn't showing any sign of "piedness". :(

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Ring0Neck » Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:08 am


Phil's opaline pied blue don't show piedness either.

https://picasaweb.google.com/MCWaviarie ... 9972087938

updated pics of the birds would be good


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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Gratz » Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:10 am

hi
for those interested here is what the bird that started this thread looks like now
[URL=http://s1281.photobucket.com/user/ ... .jpg[/img][/url]

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Ring0Neck » Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:40 am

madas wrote:opaline green, opaline SL Edged green???, "dom. pied" dark green???

bird in the middle isn't showing any sign of "piedness". :(

Tienie's sl edged opaline has plenty of black on flights as well as opaline pattern can be seen on the back
Also, IMO if the middle bird would have also been dark, it would have had a major change in phenoype.
Image


Gratz,

Did you breed with your bird ?
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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Gratz » Mon Jan 27, 2014 3:30 am

hi Ben
he is only rising 2yo born 2012
will have a go this year hopefully he is up to it:lol:

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by madas » Mon Feb 24, 2014 6:13 am

Johan S wrote:The only thing that concerns me is that the parent birds are then reported incorrectly. A hidden cinnamon gene in the cock bird could still pass through, but adding SL edged to that as well will be very hard to find. It means the green dom. pied / opaline is actually a green dom. pied SL edged / opaline / cinnamon. Isn't that a bit of a stretch? :?:

PS: @Madas, well done on some excellent paint.net skills! That cinnamon-opaline looks wonderful! :lol:
Here comes a pic of what i think is a real cinnamon opaline:

Image

Your thoughts?

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Johan S » Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:16 am

Hard to say with the flash being used, but that could be a real contender for cinnamon-opaline, yes. I've seen a picture of a violet cleartail cinnamon-opaline from England on Facebook, but can't seem to find it. Now that is an interesting bird.

Edit: Here it is, thanks Ben.

Image

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Ring0Neck » Sun Mar 02, 2014 6:57 am

I think i have cracked the Saddleback's genetical makeup.

Feedback wanted with reasons why it is not so.

Saddleback Pied= Misty* + Turquoise + Harlequin* + Opaline


Misty= Terry Martin wrote an article on an Oz Misty (thanks Paul ) developed in QLD, so it could be either strain.
Misty ?=? SL Dom.? TBD
Harlequin= Clearflight only strain of pied to be used if you want a nice smooth saddleback phenotype.


This combo for me ticks all the boxes including the weird breeding results of: no opaline, no turq & violet disappearance etc.

If we conclude this theory as "plausible", data how i got to this conclusion will follow.


Here's a quick example:
Misty Opaline SF Harlequin Blues
https://picasaweb.google.com/MCWaviarie ... 9972087938

that pair bred (next page)
https://picasaweb.google.com/MCWaviarie ... 6483352178
2 x DF Misty DF Harlequin Opaline Blues (the lacewing looking)
2 x Misty Opaline Blues

** this Misty, i've noticed it breeds couples/pairs of the same genotype. hens are slightly diff. to males, visible when placed next to each other.
Many breeders confuse this mutation for Emerald, which is wrong as it does not have the cream underwing!

BTW: If this is the case my pied-ct (white) is possibly a DF Misty SF Pied Opaline/CT, he is 3yo no neck ring.

This Misty could solve most of the unknowns in irn genetics, Including i suspect the white birds in CHFs, df misty chf i think it'll be a white bird having red eyes it will quickly be determined as SL or NSL INO.

Everything said above are NOT Facts, but a strong theory IMO for now.

Thoughts?
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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by sheyd » Sun Mar 02, 2014 5:13 pm

this 'oz misty' isn't Misty though is it? Weren't they trying to give it an appropriate name as it is different to the Misty's o/s and as well as in different species.

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Ring0Neck » Sun Mar 02, 2014 10:03 pm


Shey,
Yes, you right.
The birds in the article are s-thing else although Terry hinted Misty type and suggested more variations of misty could exist. I also think those birds in the article carried cinnamon.
I used term Misty as it best describes this mutation's characteristics.

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Ring0Neck » Mon Mar 03, 2014 4:16 am

Ringo it would be nice to see more information on this one viz its origin and formation this far...



Hi Molossus,

I shall try n do that.
The best way to understand something is to go back in time as much as possible and follow the breadcrums.
now that's not an easy thing to do when most breeders did not even notice or ignored things that did not make sense.

If anyone has usefull past info please feel free to add/correct anything .

Part I

Starting from Jack Smith where the Harlequins came from in OZ.

Q: What is a Harlequin & WHY did they name it so? why not dominant pied?? (my guess is becuase they knew it is not a D. pied)

Saddlebacks & where they originated from !? - how i understand it from info i could find:
At Gunnadah sale (biggest in Oz) J S brought the Harlequins for sale.
John F. bought them from that sale, Garry B. bought some after the sale.
From what i have seen at JF original harlequins are the clearflight looking (at least the birds he and Garry bought that year)
in 07 i bought a turquoiseblue harlequin from Jack but i did not end up keeping it, however i was also told poss/Opaline.
(if there's smoke there's fire)
:!: males were possibly split opaline (this i think Jack told everyone who asked )
and indeed some were breeding as split opaline although i don't think they are split but could be part of what makes a Harlequin with a very low x-over rate for opaline & the other mutation is barely visible in a blue or green irn (just like misty but behaving like SL D. ?).


TBC - Thoughts thus far?
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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by madas » Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:05 am

Ring0Neck wrote: Starting from Jack Smith where the Harlequins came from in OZ.
Q: What is a Harlequin & WHY did they name it so? why not dominant pied?? (my guess is becuase they knew it is not a D. pied)
Saddlebacks & where they originated from !? - how i understand it from info i could find:
At Gunnadah sale (biggest in Oz) J S brought the Harlequins for sale.
John F. bought them from that sale, Garry B. bought some after the sale.
From what i have seen at JF original harlequins are the clearflight looking (at least the birds he and Garry bought that year)
in 07 i bought a turquoiseblue harlequin from Jack but i did not end up keeping it, however i was also told poss/Opaline.
(if there's smoke there's fire)
:!: males were possibly split opaline (this i think Jack told everyone who asked )
and indeed some were breeding as split opaline although i don't think they are split but could be part of what makes a Harlequin with a very low x-over rate for opaline & the other mutation is barely visible in a blue or green irn (just like misty but behaving like SL D. ?).
TBC - Thoughts thus far?
My info is that JS was able to import one (or some) harlequins from the UK out of Babus aviaries with his contacts to a zoo of OZ. Harlequin is a name created by Babu.
Among these harlequins there was a male split for opaline. The origin of all opaline birds available in OZ.

madas

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Ring0Neck » Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:50 am


Great info.

Yes Madas, that's what is known.
The origin of all opaline birds available in OZ.

not all. i have personally seen opaline and split from OS at a breeder i visited a while back, which all come from the same source UK in the end.

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by madas » Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:57 am

Ring0Neck wrote: from OS
OS or US? If not US what is OS?

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Ring0Neck » Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:00 am

Over Seas / another country
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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Chriskoi » Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:13 am

molossus wrote: when both birds were placed together they were thought to be on and the same mutation and this can be easily understood as both share some features that would cause this mistake.
So this bird is sharing the same features as a dom. pied???

Image

Funny Britishers. Those who can't cook doesn't seem to be able to breed birds either. :D

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Ring0Neck » Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:58 am

Funny Joke Chriskoi - maybe Optometrists are not covered by medicare in Brit :lol:

Here are 2 x 2013 males unrelated, i acquired them from the same breeder.
Both are by a wide definition TurquoiseBlue Violet Harlequins.
It is obvious that it is not so.

pic almost a month old (violet in the saddlback's tail is more evident now)
http://parakeet.me/irn/m/em/d/s/P2089819.JPG
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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by prodigy » Mon Mar 03, 2014 9:39 pm

says the guy sitting with one of the most exciting new mutations in the world ;-)

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Ring0Neck » Wed Mar 05, 2014 10:57 pm

Ring0Neck wrote:From conversations with Bob :
The saddleback (SB for short)
SB hen X Blue male
offspring: 2 blue males (i asked and he confirmed normal blues)
and one SB hen

This breeding result cancels out the option of SL Edged being involved !

Bob's thoughts on SB: "Ben, my thoughts, a unique mutation at the moment, not turquoise, I am leaning towards a parblue..."



posted back in Aug 13
viewtopic.php?f=26&t=17337&p=99577&hili ... ack#p99577



So, This breeding result rules out the option of Sex-Linked mutations being involved, if indeed a hen was bred from his hen SB .
No violets in that nest !

My primary focus is now on PR Mod. , remember PR's article?
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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by madas » Thu Mar 06, 2014 1:01 am

Ring0Neck wrote: My primary focus is now on PR Mod. , remember PR's article?
No.

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by madas » Thu Mar 06, 2014 1:28 am

Ring0Neck wrote: Bob's thoughts on SB: "Ben, my thoughts, a unique mutation at the moment, not turquoise, I am leaning towards a parblue..."
If it is a parblue then we already should have seen a normal "SB" blue series bird without dom. pied.
As said before for me the dom. pieds are a "very dominant" mutation with an offspring ratio of 75%-80% compared to the normal siblings. :D
Perhaps we should solve this question before asking what a SB is. Same is true for SA. So for me the count of normal blue series birds from SB pairings is to low to make an conclusion.

Did anybody give a linkage between dom. pied, dark and blue a chance? Which then leads to a crossover of parblue and dom. pied?

A close linkage between dom. pied and the b-locus could explain the non-parblue, non-pied offspring as well. So SB then is nothing more then a par-blue mutation and the dom. pied linked on the same chromosome which could only be splitted of by re-crossover. So without this re-crossover you are only able to breed normal blues and SBs from a SB x Blue pairing in a 50%:50% ratio.

madas

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Ring0Neck » Thu Mar 06, 2014 2:13 am

Madas,

Very plausible thoughts.

Can you please elaborate on: "Did anybody give a linkage between dom. pied, dark and blue a chance? Which then leads to a crossover of parblue and dom. pied?" ?

I also thought of Dark but seeing that most SBs were bred in blue and violet no dark was mentioned i crossed it off.
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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by madas » Thu Mar 06, 2014 2:35 am

Ring0Neck wrote:Madas,

Very plausible thoughts.

Can you please elaborate on: "Did anybody give a linkage between dom. pied, dark and blue a chance? Which then leads to a crossover of parblue and dom. pied?" ?

I also thought of Dark but seeing that most SBs were bred in blue and violet no dark was mentioned i crossed it off.
Hi,

dark and blue are already known to be linked on the dark/blue chromosome. So now add dom. pied and you have a chromosome with three mutations linked on it. :)
You need no dark for a crossover of dom. pied and blue. ;)
Think in the same way as for ino, opaline and cinnamon. :)

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Ring0Neck » Thu Mar 06, 2014 2:49 am

Now you talking ;)
something like this is what i been trying to say for the last month :lol:

How can we test/prove this theory?

:!: Also, the green pieds offspring from SBs are rich in yellow unlike a normal green pied.

My thoughts are that Gary believed to be true what birds he gave Chris, only a scenario out of norm could explain the weird offspring results.
It would not make sense Gary to sell s-thing that isn't so, it's like cutting the branch from underneath your legs.

As said before for me the dom. pieds are a "very dominant" mutation with an offspring ratio of 75%-80% compared to the normal siblings
my "white" pied bred no pieds out of 4 chicks & the other pair bred 1 /4 chicks , both pied parents were males :?
hens: green violet & Violet Homo. Turq. respectively which might have s-thing to do with low ratio of pieds :?:

Not 100% sure yet but i suspect same sex offspring for SBs; male SB parent X Blue hen will breed only male SBs :?:
that will probably change if paired to a pied hen
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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Ring0Neck » Sun Mar 09, 2014 12:56 am

Watch the tail colors.
I did not take all 3 in 1 shot so i have to use 2 pics to show differences.


Green Violet & Deep Blue
Image

Deep Blue & Saddleback Harlequin "Violet"

http://parakeet.me/irn/m/em/d/s/DBvSB.jpg
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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Ring0Neck » Mon Mar 10, 2014 7:25 am

Molossus,

Nice bunch of birds my friend. :shock: I decided to increase my collection in pieds as well.

Back to saddleback; as Chris said many times, we need to forget the saddle, there's no saddle, name is wrong, my saddleback is not 1 yet and already fully covered in yellow.
also, look at it's belly, like a rainbow.

I'm thinking to pair him up with the hen on the left in the pic . (she is not pied)
what do you think?

http://parakeet.me/irn/m/em/d/s/bellyup.jpg
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Re: Saddleback ? Deep?

Post by Ring0Neck » Mon Mar 10, 2014 9:54 am




SB= Saddleback Harlequin

Mollossus,

I thought about Edged and it is still probable, however... here's my reasoning why edged is not present in SBs:
I think Clearflight Pied fills that role quiet well without the edged being required. Turq. Males in both mutations look very similar in phenotype.
Besides we've seen Tienie's Edged ADM was Yellower than a Lutino (nice going for the red color) it won't be a lot diff. in Harlequins IMO.
No edged birds were bred from SBs as far as we know.
Edged hens will be lighter and it's not the case for SB hens if anything it's the opposite, SB hens have a dark almost black head from what i have seen.


My thinking is Deep Blue ATM :) pairing a couple of pairs to see if i'm correct in my thinking.

Deep & SB, 2 mutations not fully understood and throwing unexpected results in the form of Parblue etc...
I will also put a pied to turq. edged just in case, but this could change, it all depends what my brain cooks next. :lol:

As for the suggested hen in the pic i posted, it amazed me since feathering, so offspring can not be average & if i'm right SB % will increase dramatically per nest as the hen carries Deep and i think the "Parblue", SB is made of as well. Similar marking on her underside to SB's, just add pied and dinner is served. :D

If not, it'll throw something new :wink:

Check out the 2 consecutive pics i took 2 days ago of the hen or the sibling male (can't tell for sure as they look v similar)
You'd think i'm showing 2 diff. birds here. I just moved 2 steps.

http://parakeet.me/irn/m/em/d/s/P3090508.JPG
http://parakeet.me/irn/m/em/d/s/P3090509.JPG

If you don't think it's Deep, maybe we're holding onto diff. mutations called by the same name... :idea:

Thoughts?

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Re: Saddleback ? Deep?

Post by Johan S » Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:09 pm

Ring0Neck wrote:
Check out the 2 consecutive pics i took 2 days ago of the hen or the sibling male (can't tell for sure as they look v similar)
You'd think i'm showing 2 diff. birds here. I just moved 2 steps.

http://parakeet.me/irn/m/em/d/s/P3090508.JPG
http://parakeet.me/irn/m/em/d/s/P3090509.JPG
I'm betting you got the brother there. Besides the point, I know. :lol: Can we get a pic of them in the sun? I really like the way the colour of the wing coverts change.

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Re: Saddleback ? Deep?

Post by Ring0Neck » Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:15 am

Johan S wrote:
I'm betting you got the brother there. Besides the point, I know. :lol: Can we get a pic of them in the sun? I really like the way the colour of the wing coverts change.
Johan,

Yep, that's the reason i mentioned it :D

Here's a pic from back in Jan 7th they look slightly diff. now.
will take some new pics soon

http://parakeet.me/irn/m/em/d/s/P1078692.JPG

Below in Feb
http://parakeet.me/irn/m/em/d/s/P2190227.JPG
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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Ring0Neck » Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:10 am

Can you guys comment on these 2 blue opalines.

First 1 to me seems as if it is carrying this "mysterious" mutation (a nice looking bird indeed)
https://picasaweb.google.com/MCWaviarie ... 2031215794

The second is what i would call a normal Opaline.
https://picasaweb.google.com/MCWaviarie ... 4168742626

I have seen quiet a few opalines in recent months and most are not as flashy as the first.

What is your take?
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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by madas » Tue Mar 11, 2014 4:04 am

Ring0Neck wrote: First 1 to me seems as if it is carrying this "mysterious" mutation (a nice looking bird indeed)
https://picasaweb.google.com/MCWaviarie ... 2031215794
Looks the same way like the "spangle" opalin of Gary Baldwin.

Image

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Ring0Neck » Tue Mar 11, 2014 4:14 am



Thanks Madas,
Yea, it does.
:lol: :lol: Garry for every combo creates a new mutation name ching ching $$$ .
I bet that it is a Deep Blue Opaline.
Time will tell & i hope i breed them this season (fingers crossed)

spangle :lol:
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Re: Saddleback ? Deep?

Post by Ring0Neck » Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:54 am

Johan S wrote:... Can we get a pic of them in the sun? I really like the way the colour of the wing coverts change.
Managed to get some today
http://parakeet.me/irn/m/em/d/s/P3130808.JPG
http://parakeet.me/irn/m/em/d/s/P3130838.JPG
http://parakeet.me/irn/m/em/d/s/P3130698.JPG
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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Mikesringnecks » Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:50 pm

Hi Gratz
I don't know if this will add anything to the discussion, but I have bred a TurquoiseBlue Cleartail this season which currently has a saddle. It is 5 months old and the saddle has appeared recently and I am assuming it will spread with time. If there is any significance at all in this, I would assume that significance lies in the fact that there are no other genes involved in creating the phenotype; no edged, no pied just cleartail and turquoise.
To me this suggests that turquoise can produce a saddle, at least at some point in its development. I have not heard of any relationship being proposed between cleartail and turquoise that might result in a saddle phenotype.
My apologies in advance re the quality of the UV pics but I don't know how to photograph them under UV. They come from 2 different light sources and fluorescence is beautifully clear to the eye but I can't replicate it on camera.
Kind regards
Mike
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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by madas » Mon Mar 17, 2014 12:47 am

Why does the saddleback on the left is showing a red eye and the other two don't?

Image

thx.

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Ring0Neck » Mon Mar 17, 2014 12:57 am

I see turquoise not saddleback
Whose birds are they? Parentage? etc the person who has these birds shold know why red eyes on that bird.
Last edited by Ring0Neck on Mon Mar 17, 2014 1:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by madas » Mon Mar 17, 2014 1:05 am

Ring0Neck wrote:Maybe bred from saddleback but i see turquoise.
Whose birds are they? Parentage? etc the person who has these birds shold know why red eyes on that bird.
Then ask Philip Highland. ;)

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Ring0Neck » Mon Mar 17, 2014 1:12 am

Well.

LOL i edited again previous post. :D

Chris should ask him.
Its true i don't have a blue SB but clearly the red eyes indicates something else yet he calls both saddlebacks.

I'd like to see a better pic of that SB or when they were younger.


I can only assume that their phenotype change dramatically within the 1st year if that is in fact a blue SB.

Recent pic of my violet SB 2013 bred

http://parakeet.me/irn/m/em/d/s/DBvSB.jpg


Madas, do you think my SB has Emerald in it? parents were after all SB or Parblue Violet Harlequin X Emerald hen
Breeder i got it from does not think it is emerald as he had an hen in emerald there and it is different (i sent you pics of that bird a while ago).

I will find out for sure once he breeds.
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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Ring0Neck » Mon Mar 17, 2014 1:51 am

The red eye might be from the flash/angle of the eye & in fact there could be no red eye. we can see flash was used. still.
Chris will probably answer this for us.
I'm not an expert in SBs.

If saddleback was paired to another pied it probably will make sense, the other pieds will interfere with saddleback's phenotype.
SB might be distorted paired to a diff. type pied, i think clearflight type pieds are best suited. Just thoughts i have and i could be wrong.
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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by madas » Mon Mar 17, 2014 2:57 am

Ring0Neck wrote: Recent pic of my violet SB 2013 bred

http://parakeet.me/irn/m/em/d/s/DBvSB.jpg

Madas, do you think my SB has Emerald in it?
Hm. Don't think so. Can't see any Emerald indicator. :(
Have you checked the underwing section?

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Ring0Neck » Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:08 am

madas wrote:
Hm. Don't think so. Can't see any Emerald indicator. :(
Have you checked the underwing section?
Me neither.

6 week old pic in flight

Image
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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by madas » Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:21 am

Ring0Neck wrote:The red eye might be from the flash/angle of the eye & in fact there could be no red eye. we can see flash was used. still.
But the heads all three birds are forming the same angle to the camera. So i don't think it is the "red-eye" effect.

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by madas » Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:23 am

Btw: the bird on the left isn't showing a visible iris as well. :)

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Ring0Neck » Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:39 am

madas wrote:
Ring0Neck wrote:The red eye might be from the flash/angle of the eye & in fact there could be no red eye. we can see flash was used. still.
But the heads all three birds are forming the same angle to the camera. So i don't think it is the "red-eye" effect.
Point taken, the camera yes, but the bird's head on the left has a diff. angle looking at the camera hence light from flash could have a diff. effect from the other two.

Head looks lighter as well, if another pic will show darker head the same as the bird on the right it will pretty much confirm flash.
Not saying it does or does not have red eyes, that only he & chris can answer.

No Iris, i guess they are 2013 young and not fully formed or reacted to flash?
my Sb in the last photo does not show an iris either although it does have it.
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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by madas » Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:22 am

Ring0Neck wrote:
madas wrote:
Ring0Neck wrote:The red eye might be from the flash/angle of the eye & in fact there could be no red eye. we can see flash was used. still.
But the heads all three birds are forming the same angle to the camera. So i don't think it is the "red-eye" effect.
Point taken, the camera yes, but the bird's head on the left has a diff. angle looking at the camera hence light from flash could have a diff. effect from the other two.

Head looks lighter as well, if another pic will show darker head the same as the bird on the right it will pretty much confirm flash.
Not saying it does or does not have red eyes, that only he & chris can answer.

No Iris, i guess they are 2013 young and not fully formed or reacted to flash?
my Sb in the last photo does not show an iris either although it does have it.
Image

Bazinga

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Ring0Neck » Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:31 am



Tell Cooper that Bazinga is a Jellyfish, right here in OZ :lol:
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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by madas » Mon Mar 17, 2014 10:02 am

Ring0Neck wrote:

Tell Cooper that Bazinga is a Jellyfish, right here in OZ :lol:
Alright Kripke. ;)

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by sheyd » Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:16 pm

Ring0Neck wrote:The red eye might be from the flash/angle of the eye & in fact there could be no red eye.
Don't believe I've ever seen a pic of a IRN having red eyes (due to flash) that weren't already of a mutation that are hatched with red eyes. Do you have an example?

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Ring0Neck » Mon Mar 17, 2014 8:58 pm

sheyd wrote:
Ring0Neck wrote:The red eye might be from the flash/angle of the eye & in fact there could be no red eye.
Don't believe I've ever seen a pic of a IRN having red eyes (due to flash) that weren't already of a mutation that are hatched with red eyes. Do you have an example?

Shey,

I don't remember seeing one either, however it is ideal to explore all possibilities before jumping to conclusions. I don't take many pics with flash.
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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by sheyd » Mon Mar 17, 2014 11:19 pm

Ben, you don't need to of taken a lot of pics with flash-- others have already done the work for you (plenty of people like to take pics with flash on sale ads ect, ect)-

I've been specifically looking for and am yet to see a non-red eyed mutation show a red eye with a flash- I've tried my own experiments too- to see if I could make it happen - no success yet- I don't believe it's possible or find it highly unlikely (but am happy to be proven wrong- hence why I asked if you had an example).

anyhow... back to the thread.

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by mcw-indianringnecks » Tue Mar 18, 2014 2:36 am

i have tryed loading photoes ,its just to hard ,sorry
There are no red eyes in the saddleback line ,its just the way that photo turned out.

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by madas » Tue Mar 18, 2014 2:42 am

mcw-indianringnecks wrote:i have tryed loading photoes ,its just to hard ,sorry
There are no red eyes in the saddleback line ,its just the way that photo turned out.
Hi Chris,

thx for your response. But if the three birds are siblings why is the bird on the left showing a completly other "eye" then the other two?
Can you ask Philip to re-check the Bird on the left for the true eye color. I can't believe it is camera made.

Regarding the pics: you can forward them to me for uploading. mada_s(at)ymail.com

regards.

madas

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by madas » Tue Mar 18, 2014 3:04 am

here is the pic of Chris (comments will follow by him self):

Image

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by bennjamin » Tue Mar 18, 2014 3:12 am

The 3 birds in question, the bird with the red eye has flights and tail cleaner, its base colour is also paler than the bird one the right as well I see the toe of the LHS bird looks more bleached than its counter part, better pic maybe would clear this up.

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by madas » Tue Mar 18, 2014 4:04 am

Some more pics of Chris:

Image

Image

Image

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by mcw-indianringnecks » Tue Mar 18, 2014 4:29 am

Phil breed 3 saddlebacks this year all cocks ,1 i have ready for export ,1 going to live in Sydney + 1 4sale .Pics of the 3 birds have been added Thanks Stef. Notice the varst difference of colour in these birds ,if you go to my web site you will notice all saddleback display varstly differently to each other + there colour changes so much so quickly , Yet none have red eyes>
The original picture is about 10 weeks old

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by mallee_1 » Tue Mar 18, 2014 2:56 pm

Hi Guys,

Can we clear up what determines or disinguishes the difference between a saddleback pied & a harlequin pied in Australia.

After seeing this go on for some time now, I still can't clearly pin what the criteria is to determine one from the other. I have seen pieds around that seem to be part way between the best saddlebacks (photos of CW) and some average harlequins, is this a poor saddleback or a good harlequin???????

Awaiting the many responses and hopefully come up with an answer :idea: :|

Regards Glenn

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prodigy
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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by prodigy » Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:02 pm

Dominant Pied, Clear Flights and Clear Tail with at saddle on the back, have I missed anything ?

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Ring0Neck » Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:08 pm

prodigy wrote:Dominant Pied, Clear Flights and Clear Tail with at saddle on the back, have I missed anything ?
by the time the bird is 1 y old saddle should have extended over the whole back of the bird.
sharper colors
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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by prodigy » Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:40 pm

Ben what happens to the Opaline Dom Pieds as that color up and moult out ?

What would happen to the young bird below ??

Image

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Ring0Neck » Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:47 pm

Pete,

Not sure. I'm just getting into Opalines now, i know little about the combo, esp. with Parblue.
Maybe someone else can answer that.
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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by prodigy » Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:33 pm

Thanks Mate

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Mikesringnecks » Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:20 pm

Hi all saddleback enthusiasts
At the end of page 3 of this thread I posted 3 pics of a young TurquoiseBlue Cleartail with a well defined "saddle". No other genes involved. Can someone please explain the relevance or lack of it.
Kind regards
Mike

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Gratz
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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Gratz » Wed Mar 19, 2014 4:29 pm

Hi Mike

From what I have seen and read so far, all the Saddlebacks have a bright yellow saddle,
Also the read that the saddle has nothing to do with the actual saddleback mutation
but then I also read that they start with nothing , get a saddle at the first moult , then the saddle spreads over the wings of the bird as well.
I also have seen a photo of Babu's saddleback and it seems very clear to have a yellow saddle
then I see photos of chicks in a nest and the saddlebacks are identified in the nest with pin feathers.
Another thing is that it seems that saddlebacks are found only with the pied combination
and most importantly There is no turquoise in saddlebacks

yes very confusing.

regards
Gratz

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Mikesringnecks » Wed Mar 19, 2014 9:09 pm

Hi Gratz
Thanks very much for that. So my green saddle is not a saddleback saddle, it would need an additional gene to remove the black pigment from the saddle area, such as dominant pied, to make it a proper "saddleback" with a yellow saddle.
It is interesting that the turquoise gene can add yellow to the saddle area to produce a "green saddleback" isn't it.
kind regards
Mike

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by madas » Thu Mar 20, 2014 3:32 am

Some pics again from Chris (comments will follow):

Image
Image
Image

madas

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by mcw-indianringnecks » Thu Mar 20, 2014 4:12 am

As you can see the Saddlebacks always display strongly as the pin feathers open.
In the photoe of my DF Harlequin Saddleback you can see around 3 months you couldnt tell this bird from any other Turquoise bird. [ DF Harlequin or creamino ].
From 7 or 8 months theres always a strong colour change , yet again some Turquoise also show colour change ,but not as strongly as in the saddlebacks .
Deon doesnt show a strong interest in the psittacin display or the yellowing of these birds , he is more interested in the depth of colour the general richness these birds display?
From there 1st molt you can see another magor change , but these birds change so much so often , If you look at each saddleback on my web they are all very different to each other , no 2 saddlebacks are born looking like its brothers etc.
We all realise saddleback to be the wrong name for these birds , but we inherited it ,until Tienies And Deons breeding results we will have to live with it , Hopefully they will establish a more approprate name.We use the name SADDLEBACK to describe a bird we beleive IS NOT A SIMPLE TURQUOISE bird , i assume most people realise this is the point ive been trying to make, it is disappointing when so many people use the name SADDLEBACK to describe birds they know are simply TURQUOISE.

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Mikesringnecks » Thu Mar 20, 2014 4:57 pm

Hi Chris
Thanks for that insight. So presumably, all my TurquoiseBlue Cleartail with a green saddle proves is that the saddle area on the bird is inclined to attract yellow pigmentation in preference to surrounding areas? That is something I am quite happy to accept, I just thought its occurrence was interesting.
I can also happily accept that, as you have often said, "saddlebacks" do not carry a "par blue" gene (turquoise, indigo, sapphire or emerald). However, I am still confused about what saddlebacks really are. Am I correct in assuming that they do carry a "Dominant Pied" gene of some sort or are they a completely separate mutation or are they a separate mutation in combination with a "Dominant Pied" gene?
As far as the "saddleback" is concerned do you know what the current thinking is or should we sensibly await outcomes from Deon's next breeding season?
Kind regards
Mike

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by mcw-indianringnecks » Fri Mar 21, 2014 1:05 am

I beleive ive sent Deon And Tienie very good stock to sort this stuff out ,Especially the green series birds , i think there breeding results will tell a lot about them , I hope my results from adding Emerold will also help clear the air so to speak.
I think it best we wait for there results as breeding season isnt far away and there birds are mature.

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by mcw-indianringnecks » Sun Mar 23, 2014 11:42 pm

Ive never claimed them to be a new mutation ,in saying that i dont beleive they are a combination of colours either?
All ive said is i do not beleive these birds are Turquoise ,Do you think this bird is a simple Turquoise Harlequin .
If its not Turquoise it then must still be a par blue of some type ?
I have found 1 bird similar to mine ,its Emerold DF Harlequin ,yet we know theres no emerold in saddlebacks ,i have found 4 or 5 Turquoise DF Harlequins that display as you would expect Turquoise would .

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Ring0Neck » Mon Mar 24, 2014 8:25 pm

madas wrote:Some more pics of Chris:

...

Image

...

madas
I can't tell apart from the above bird & below TurquoiseBlue Harlequin which you know well and now own for many years Chris.


Image
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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by mcw-indianringnecks » Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:51 am

Deon beleives the richness and depth of colour is the essance of saddleback , this is actually his bird so we will be able to have his breeding results when the time comes .I beleive hes mating him to Cobalt Emerold ?
If you have a closer look at the top bird the yellowing is a lot richer than the turquoise in bottom picture. [ my opion anyway ].
Babu beleives if we continually breed back to normal colours as in emerold ,cobalt etc , . we should be able to breed harlequin out of these birds. ??
Babus first saddleback was breed from the bird on page 382 bottom photo in Sjacks book
-Dominate pied -grey green , he now beleives this wasnt a dominate pied .
The saddleback appears to have come to Australia the same way as Opaline ,carried on a gene in Harlequin.?
Added pic of Laffeys Emerold DF Harlequin
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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Ring0Neck » Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:36 am

-Dominate pied -grey green , he now beleives this wasnt a dominate pied .
Yep, just as i speculate about some of our OZ birds SBs inclusive, and i mentioned in a couple of posts that some pieds might not be harlequins and perhaps not even dom. pieds.
Did he say what he paired that bird to? Emerald ?


PS: Breeding a clear bird from 2 pieds does not guarantee it is a DF Pied IMO, only when we breed 100% pieds offspring from clear bird x normal.
We keep talking about variable phenotype in pieds, but the 2 birds in the pics above were bred 7+ years apart yet almost identical.
Q is Why do we see major changes in pieds morphotype then (parent V offspring)? it must be Extraneous Variables (like a modifier or mutation) or the bird is a totally different mutation /type of pieds to the other pieds.
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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by madas » Sun Aug 24, 2014 10:37 pm

Here are some news pics from Chris of a special "saddleback" with red eyes and no visible iris. This bird was discussed earlier but couldn't find the exact thread.
At that time Chris had the opinion it is due to the effects of a flash or an effect of the photography but he couldn't confirm it because the bird wasn't owned by him. Which changed now. :) He informed me that bird is clearly showing an non typical saddleback eye without iris and a red color. But he is still unsure what it is caused by.

Image

Image

greetings.

madas

PS: Maybe Chris is adding some more infos.

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by madas » Sun Aug 24, 2014 10:40 pm

For me the feets look cinnamon but not sure too. So is there a chance that a combo of dom. pied and cinnamon could cause a translucent iris?

madas

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Recio » Mon Aug 25, 2014 12:35 am

Hi Madas,

I can not see any cinnamon marker in either the nails, the feet colour, the bill or the wing feathers.

About the reason of the translucent iris other than clear head fallow ... nor idea :(

Regards

Recio

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by mcw-indianringnecks » Mon Aug 25, 2014 1:59 am

Gratz you should probally point out,the farther to your bird in Deons book was the Turquoise Harlequin i sent to Deon , He used it to Compare to Saddleback and your bird isnt Saddleback and has nothing at all to do with saddlebacks Except as a comparasion bird for saddlebacks.Its simply a Turquoise Harlequin ,with a saddle.
On my web site theres lots of pictures of Opaline Harlequins including turquoise and DF Harlequin Opaline hens and cocks , the interesting thing there they actually have a white head and a very light blue body, worth a look .
I will add my apoligies ,,Phils saddleback which desplayed the red eyes i thought was from the camera , i was wrong .,, new pictures have been added thanks to madas in a different thread i suppose.
I know very little about S L Edge , im glad to see Bob doesnt think its involved with saddlebacks, Im sure without dought that Opaline has nothing to do with Saddlebacks either , I dont beleive Turquoise is involved either , [ if they were TURQUOISE , then we could call them TURQUOISE Harlequins couldnt we.].
As ive said before Tienie and Deon both have saddlebacks in SF and DF Harlequin +saddleback ,They also have most of the Green Series Harlequins breed from saddlebacks , Lets wait and see there breeding results . Interesting fact NO Saddlebacks have ever been breed from a green series bird breed from Saddleback , but numbers still very low to be of any help??
This year both Phil and i have put our saddlebacks to Emerold to see there results , Tienie didnt agree with this mating , lets see the results, both my pairs layed this week.
So if we assume SL Edge ,,Opaline and Turquoise are not involved in Saddlebacks whats left ?????

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Gratz » Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:40 pm

So a year has passed since this post and no update on the breeding results?.
by the way Chris I do have Dr Deon's book and it is amusing that Dr Deon himself has labeled the father of my bird as the Blue Saddleback.
But don't be concerned as I am not claiming that I have a saddleback.

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by mcw-indianringnecks » Fri Jul 31, 2015 11:08 pm

From memory you bought your turquoise harlequin from Joe [as a turquoise harlequin ], Who has never owned saddleback & never breed saddleback & never sold Saddleback , So im glad to see you dont claim to own saddleback ?So what are your breeding results ?My Saddleback layed its 4th egg today ?As i have pointed out before the picture you referred to in Deons book is displaying Joes Turquoise Harlequin as comparision to a similar looking Saddleback ,So you own Turquoise Harlequin congradulations so do i ??
If you look at the underwing marker of your Turquoise Harlequin under 1 year old you will see the difference between the two.

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Gratz
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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Gratz » Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:03 am

the breeding results I was refering to was from the eggs laid in August last year.(2014)
would be interesting to see your and Phill's results

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by mcw-indianringnecks » Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:54 am

As you would expect my breeding results are on my web site ,under Saddlebacks, Theres also a series of Underwing Marker photos to compare to saddlebacks which are born with underwing markers ,You will be able to check with your young as Turquoise dont develop these markers until there 1 yr old molt.As usual i only breed 1 saddleback it was born in emerold .

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Re: Saddleback ?

Post by Mikesringnecks » Tue Sep 29, 2015 8:45 pm

Hi Gratz
I think Chris has bred a saddleback this year without a pied gene in it but i haven't been to look at it yet.
Kind regards
Mike

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