IndianRingNeck.com

prodigy wrote:Johan the differences is huge, in very non scientific terms these birds GLOW and a bog standard green bird shows nothing at all.
You want to see the pictures, the tequila and beer is on you this time my friend

Well, in non scientific terms I wanted to confirm whether green birds will show a little bit of "glow" already at a couple of weeks of age. It is known that they do after about 18 months, but I haven't studied young birds. That's why I asked for a reference picture. As for beers and tequila, you know where I live...

Most young normal green birds are ever so slightly florescent, nothing compared to the birds we have been talking about.

I have taken young blue series birds as well as violet and if I test for florescence in a complacently dark room you cant even see the bird.

Violet Turq Opaline


But as Zain says lets built the UV photo booth and then we will have a nice controlled environment.

Peter

Hi Peter,

I completely agree : we need standard conditions of observation to be able to compare birds. The intensity of the fluorescence in the pics depends on many factors other than the bird mutations: uv intensity, wavelentgh or amplitude spectrum, exposure time, ... so the description of standard conditions for observation is a real challenge.

I guess Deon will add some fluorescence pics in his next book ... and in the books to come every bird showing psittacin should have an "under uv pic" besides, to allow for identification of each psittacin type and how it is affected in that specific mutation.

Regards

Recio

Hi All,

Thinking of UV, i played around with this program & I think i stumbled upon something interesting.
I have used: Paint.net (a free program) and changed the settings to: Hue=154, Saturation=150 (see first pic)
I am sure these settings are not the ideal settings but it's a start.
Conclusion: Deep as well as Dark (Cobalts) birds show a high red,violets a faded shade.
The most intresting part is the green normal birds appear with no red at all, the deep green birds however show a distinctive red through them.
Most pictures below are from this thread (normal greens off the net)
Anyone can try this and fine tune it.
It might be nothing but i think it's a start.
NOTE: These birds are not red - Images have been modified with above settings





Deep Greens



Deep Blues - Peter your birds are Deep Blues see below, if they were violets would have been a faded orange.
Perhaps we can identify any bird if Dark or Violet strain???


Peter's pic

original
UV

Cinnamon Violet left Cinn. Deep Blue Right


Df Emerald


ADM Pied


DF Deep Blue & DF Violet Blue


Bucket of chicks
http://parakeet.me/irn/redz/bucket.jpg
original pic
http://parakeet.me/irn/redz/bucketorig.JPG

Turquoise series:
Turquoiseblue


Turquoise Deep blue

Indigo -


I believe that we can use this system to identify violetblue and violetcobalt (and more) if unsure what it is...
Easiest when you have all birds in question in 1 photo. see bucket of chicks pic as example..
Anybody can try this with any pictures. (blue also shows a different red again)
All pictures are changed to the same settings, a pattern emerges, and it is clear that deep has an intresting red to them, dark also, patterns are there even with all sorts of pictures, any camera and with many different lighting conditions.
Let's Explore.

Ben

Hi Ben,

What you are doing is treating colours so that our eyes can easierly see the differences, but you can not compare two different pics because the apparent colours are different even if the bird on each pic is the same. This is a very valuable tool to look for little differences at colours where our eyes are not good enough. Ex: after aging our eyes can not detect little differences among different blues as you can obtain by combining structural mutation on the blue series. If you just inverse the colours your eyes, which are more efficient in the red colours, will be able to easily detect these changes... but again you can only compare mutations within the same pics and never between different pics.

Regards

Recio

PS: This topic was previously discussed in the yahoo list... although the work looking for the good settings was not as far as Ben has gone... just inversing colours with one simple click on your computer.

No, you are not crazy ... but very smart ... do not change.

Recio

Ben I use filter's on my iphone to tell the difference when it comes to some of the more complex color combinations like Violet Mauve Turq and even certain cobalt birds from violet and Deep's.

Then off to the UV to make sure

Hi All

I have a good way of checking! I just get Peter round to photograph my birds and apply filters! Its a slightly longer process because it sometimes take him a while to come visit. Even though I have sooooo many deep blue birds and mutation.

Oh well at least we chat often on whatsapp hey!

prodigy wrote:Ben I use filter's on my iphone to tell the difference when it comes to some of the more complex color combinations like Violet Mauve Turq and even certain cobalt birds from violet and Deep's.

Then off to the UV to make sure

I thought we discussed those filters after I gave you pics that turned out to give the wrong result... You saying you still use it?

prodigy wrote:Ben I use filter's on my iphone to tell the difference when it comes to some of the more complex color combinations like Violet Mauve Turq and even certain cobalt birds from violet and Deep's.

Then off to the UV to make sure

Hi Prodigy,

can you provide some pics of the turq mauve violet?

Thx in advance.

Hi everybody,

Those are pics from Zane till he will be able to directly post. I know that some of them have already been posted. He will comment on the pics. He wrote :

These birds were bred from the following:

Turq Deep blue / Clear head fallow - Darkgreen clear head fallow / blue

The first baby is a double dark factor green series CHF
The second is a double dark factor split CHF but not Olive as I have bred a few since 1995
The Third is Deep blue's split CHF

I am wandering if the first and second chicks are also Deep as labeled in the pic file. Could you tell us?

Regards

Recio

Hi all

Peter and I have discussed them a lot, the pic of the Red birds in the container send through previously are of the third pic but now older. The other 2 are from the same nest 6 chicks in total and we believe they are Deep green Dark greens (1 deep green factor and 1 normal dark green factor)

There was two CHF chicks from the pair the other is a Turq Deep blue CHF

In the Deep blue splits there were 3 and then the 1 in the second pic carrying both Deep and dark green

What are all your thoughts

Zane

Hi Zane and everybody,

I think that the Deep mutation is not a structural mutation but a melanistic mutation. Reasons:

1. Why this mutation was called Deep by Willy? Because the resulting colour in the blue series was a deep blue. It means that the colour is the same than in normal blues but with a higher saturation. The colour appears as a deep blue because it is not altered by any change in feather structure (as it happens with Dark or Violet). How can exist a deeper blue colour without altering feather structure? The only answer is ... it is due to an increased melanin production.

2. This is the only mutation showing dark nails if there is not any melanin reducting mutation in the combo. Nails colour depend only on melanin production, since the keratin does not produce any interference phenomenon in the nails ... so this finding also points to an increase of melanin in the Deep mutation.

3. Deep inherits as dominant ... and most melanistic mutations inherit also as dominant.

How to prove or disporve it? Of course ultrastructural studies are necesary but we can make a different approach:

Structural mutations (grey, dark and violet) alter feather structure in different degrees. Grey seems to be the mutation producing a stronger alteration of feather structure and this is the reason why ...
1. Grey is able to mask Dark and Violet (similar to lutino masking any other mutation partially acting on melanin).
2. Grey is a "complete" dominant mutation (Dark and Violet are incomplete dominant).
3. Grey is "grey" in blue series and Dark and Violet are different shades of blue ... that is Grey mutation completely destroys feather structure and we can directly "see" the melanin without any interference by the reflected blue ligth.

So if we want to prove that Deep is a melanistic mutation the easier first study to do is to combine Deep and Grey: if Deep is an structural mutation the resulting bird will be grey (most probably grey would mask it), but if it is a melanistic mutation the resulting bird will be somewhere between dark grey and black colour (Terry would say that the colour will never be black because black depends on the melanin expressed on the cortex ... and this melanin is only present in budgies ... but our IRN own a black ring!!! ... so we can always dream).

This will open new possibilities ... open our minds : if Deep was a melanistic mutation ... how would look a SL-ino Deep IRN? Would Deep be able to uncover the residual production of melanin present in SL-ino birds? Would allow the combination of Deep with SL-ino or with NSL-ino to get different visual combos?

... and the ever coming question ... why this has not been done earlier? ... or it has already be done?

Regards

Recio

Hi Ben, yes that first bird is a green bird i could not believe it myself the first time i saw it

Hi Ben

Are you referring to the bird that I said is a double factor green series bird? if so then could you please get my mail address from Peter or Recio so that I can discuss with you, I have nothing to hide! I am not currently able to share pictures on this site as yet but will gladly send to you. you may then do the Paint test for now and re post to this page if you like.
I am always open to discussion and willing to share my findings, The babies are due off the nest in about 2 weeks or so! but Mom or Dad did pluck them a bit. I will be taking many more pictures of them and share with all of you.

I am willing to test my birds with the likes of grey to see what happens, perhaps Ill find i nice couple of Grey mutations to put to the green and blue deeps or what ever they are.

I am very sure that it is not normal dark as I have them and bred Mauve, Olives etc. also the pic's in the bucket of the birds that Peter send went red and they my babies from the same nest! part of the six which is also the 3rd picture posted by Recio on my behalf Just older now

Kind regards

Zane

Sorry to go a little of the topic but I have personally seen 2 birds which are supposed to be Cobalt Grey, but my eyes can't see any difference to a normal grey bird, how would one distinguish between the 2 and what am I supposed to look for, or is the only way to find out by test mating the bird

Thanks
Lushen

Hi Lushen

From my experience on grey cobalt you see more of the blue or cobalt color on the rump than if it were a normal grey! However this has a very different effect when using the deep blue gene in that the deep has the blue with a different sheen to the rump and flight feathers

Regards
Zane

Hi Ringoneck, thanks for the reply, so if one were to breed a Cobalt Grey Ino, would this bird then look albino and also need to be test mated, also same question applies to a cobalt ino, I'm sure that this bird should also look like an albino and need to be test mated to prove its genetic makeup?

Thanks
Lushen

ZaneFindlay wrote:Hi Lushen

From my experience on grey cobalt you see more of the blue or cobalt color on the rump than if it were a normal grey! However this has a very different effect when using the deep blue gene in that the deep has the blue with a different sheen to the rump and flight feathers

Regards
Zane

Hi Zane, thanks for the reply, that's what I was also told to look for blue on the rump, but my eyes couldn't see any on these 2 birds, I know that you are unable to post pics at the moment, but I would appreciate if you could perhaps email a few pics if you have of cobalt grey and the blue on the rump

Thanks
Lushen

Hi Ringo, that is true, taking any grey would be a fruitless exercise, but the 2 birds I've seen were told to be cobalt greys and when I compare them to my birds, visually the look identical to my grey male, so I thought that maybe there was something that I wasn't seeing and just wanted to know what to look for. So if a cobalt grey looks visually grey, then what would a Deep blue Grey look like?

can you provide some pics of the turq mauve violet?

Hi Molossus, I wasn't thinking of purchasing such a bird, just saw 2 at a breeders house and wanted to learn more so that I can train my eye to look for identify features of various masked mutations

Thanks
Lushen

Lushen1600 wrote:So if a cobalt grey looks visually grey, then what would a Deep blue Grey look like?

Lushen, that is the million dollar question! Let's take some examples.

1) Grey combined with other mutations causing a structural change (dark and violet) almost completely masks the other mutations. Only sometimes it leaves very very faint traces, esp. in the forehead, the rump and I also believe in the "fluffy" feathers covering the upper legs.
2) Grey combined with turquoise, but it does not mask the green (caused by yellow "pigment"). You can clearly see the green and there is never any doubt about it. Similar with emerald, the emerald grey(blue) shines like a dark gem in sunlight, distinctly different to the normal grey(blue) which is dull in appearance.

So why can we see the difference with parblues and emerald? Because it acts in a different way (on psittacin) than structural mutations. Why is the question of grey deep important? Since it will quickly give us information whether deep acts like a structural mutation (and grey should mask it), or not.

Hi Johan, thanks for the reply,

So does that mean that grey is not able to completely mask any mutation which is dominant or co-dominant, but has a higher masking effect on incomplete dominant mutations?

Thanks
Lushen

Lushen1600 wrote:Hi Johan, thanks for the reply,

So does that mean that grey is not able to completely mask any mutation which is dominant or co-dominant, but has a higher masking effect on incomplete dominant mutations?

Thanks
Lushen

Hi Lushen,

It is not a question of inheritance mode but of final action : as Johan explained if Deep is a structural mutation (alters feather structure) we can guess that it would be masked by Grey (like Dark and Violet are more or less masked by grey), but if it is a melanistic mutation (increases melanin production) we should expect a darker grey or a black IRN, similar to Ron's bird.

Regards

Recio

Hi ring0neck,

i have used your method and same settings for altering the pics with Paint .NET. So here are my results:

cobalt


comparison cobalt, violetblue, cobaltviolet


ct violetblue (could be df)


cobaltviolet


cobaltviolet (flash)


rec. pied violetblue


ct turqcobalt


ct violetblue


ct violetblue, ct blue, ct turqcoablt


greetings

madas

So what colour does a normal blue look like under those setting on paint.net?

Thanks
Lushen

Hi Ben,

I will send more of the CHF's once they off the nest, we have had around 2 weeks of overcast weather and rain so perhaps that is the reason for the bluish haze / color.

I have so many pictures of my birds, what are your thoughts on the birds so far?
Will you be subjecting the pic's to the Paint test and posting them with comments and for comment by the others.

From what I understand I have to post somewhere between 12 & 20 posts before I am able to upload any pic's

The Previous Pic's are very nice and thanks for sharing them with us.

Zane

Hi Ben

LOL, I think his intentions are good, But if he has a good mutation in grey that would be of value to the exercise and a way to get it to me in South Africa I am willing to try it.

I have started searching and giving thought to the matter and I think we could try with a few mutations! I would like to try to Clear Head clear tail as the body color is still dark unlike the CHF mutation and others.

If anybody has ideas let me know, I have secured a Double factor grey CHCT hen and I know of a double factor split CHCT & Cin cock bird (But the chicks are going to be possible split CHCT and that would be a waste of time)

I still have a pair of grey cobalt CHCT's so perhaps ill use them (they 9 years old) the idea then was to produce a double factor grey mauve CHCT.

regards
Zane

Ring0Neck wrote:i am yet to see violet cobalt chf here in OZ (not saying there isn't any)

Hey Ben, the least I can do then is to let you have a look at this one here in SA.

Hi Ben,

Thank you for the very interesting article of Russel about this darker blue bird. The only possible explanation to date is that it does not seem any allele of Violet or of Dark, and that probably it is an structural mutation able to mask Violet. Respective the inheritance mode it seems to be dominant but till now we can not say if it is sex linked or carried in the autosomes. Anyway this mutation is different than the Deep we are discussing ... although they could be related. Affaire à suivre.

@Madas and Ben: very interesting colour treatment to identify mutations in the blue wavelength. Do you think that it will allow to make the differences among all the possible combinations of Dark, Violet and Deep both SF and DF forms, in blue series birds? We have more than 20 possible genetic combinations and I must confess that I am not able to see the phenotypic differences among most of them. It would be great to have a confident tool like this to identify colours than our eyes can not detect with enough accuracy.

Regards

Recio

This is a Violet Cobalt bread out of the same deep Violet blue line could it be a Deep Violet Cobalt ?

Let's put this to the test. Who can ID these mutations?

Bird 1

Bird 2

Bird 3

@Johan according to the filters

Bird 1 = Cobalt
Bird 2 = Violet or DF Violet Truq
Bird 3 = Cobalt Turq

whats my score ?

Ben,

Very interesting comment, as I have already used your system on my red birds and across all 3 mutations the red shows up as and ice blue color.









THE NEXT TWO BRIDS ARE NOT MINE









Regards,

Peter