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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 1:54 pm 
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Location: Pietermaritzburg, South Africa
Hi all just want to know from the more experienced guys what is the visual differences between a dominant edge blue and a recessive edge blue and a normal true blue cock bird, I have now found out that the blue cock I have in Pair 3 which I bought with the blue rainbow hen in pair 7 is a Dominant edge blue cinnamon possibly split opaline or possibly split pied or possibly split clearhead or possibly split cleartail or may have a combination of these splits, what I would like to know is as someone who has never seen a dominant edge blue cinnamon before, how would I differentiate this bird from recessive edge blue and a normal true blue, as if I compare this blue cock in pair 3 to the blue cock in pair 1, there are slight differences in the body colour as well as the wing flights and tail colour.

Will post pics by tomorrow as I take out pics during the day but would be thankful if someone could describe the differences

Thanks
Lushen

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2014 Pairs
Green x Green
DGreen x DBlue
DE Blue/ino x DBlue
Grey/ino x Albino
Pallidino x Lutino
DE Blue Turq x Grey
DE Grey Turq x Blue
Greygreen/cinn x DE Blue Cinn
DE DBlue Turq x Blue Turq CHWT
Blue x DBlue Turq
Blue x Blue Pallid
Lutino/blue x Blue


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 3:36 am 
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Hi Lushen, I only have a pic of a dominant edge blue, not the others you have requested. I haven't seen recessive edged IRN, so can't comment on those. The most obvious difference to me between the dominant edged and normal bird are the flight feathers. The difference is massive, with dilution in the center and the colouration towards the edges (thus the name) of especially the flight feathers. Looking forward to your pictures. And hopefully Madas will also respond; he is rather an expert in this mutation and might also comment on the cinnamon part that I have left out.

Image

PS: I find it strange that the bird is possibly split for so many mutations. As you can imagine: 1) it would take many years to breed all those mutations into a single bird, and/or 2) one would need some very rare, multi-mutation birds if one wants to cut down the time. I know very few local/SA breeders that have combined edged to opaline (although more common these days, still very expensive), or edged to pied (only becoming cheaper the last year or two), or edged to clearhead or cleartail for that matter, or pied to clearhead or cleartail. It sounds to me like a very experienced breeder that has experimented a lot and have many years of experience. His/her knowledge would be priceless, and I sincerely hope that you can convince him/her to join this forum and share it with us.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 6:31 am 
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Hi Johan thanks for the reply, I bought the blue cock in Pair 3 together with a 1 year old blue rainbow hen in Pair 7 and ever since I got this bird the breeder who gave me this info about the bird last night has asked me to sell him the blue cock or he was will to swop a pair of green/blue pieds for both the blue cock and the blue rainbow hen. The breeder is question who told me about the genetics of this bird also wanted to buy the bird and says that it was one of his chicks may be known to some. His name is Sherwin Maharaj currently staying in Pietermaritzburg, son of Tarzan Maharaj who has been breeding ringnecks for years in Estcourt. As for the splits those could be possible splits, meaning the bird could have one or a combination of those splits. Here are some pics of the bird in question, sorry that they are not the best as I tool them out with my mobile phone, any comments would be appreciated

Image

Image

Image

Hi Molossus, thanks for the reply, the bird in question was said to be a dominant edge blue cinnamon and not recessive edge, the only reason I asked about recessive edge is because I saw that the calculator gave options for both dominant and recessive edge and also on Zahir Rana website there are pics and mention of both dominant and recessive edge

Thanks
Lushen

_________________
2014 Pairs
Green x Green
DGreen x DBlue
DE Blue/ino x DBlue
Grey/ino x Albino
Pallidino x Lutino
DE Blue Turq x Grey
DE Grey Turq x Blue
Greygreen/cinn x DE Blue Cinn
DE DBlue Turq x Blue Turq CHWT
Blue x DBlue Turq
Blue x Blue Pallid
Lutino/blue x Blue


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 7:03 am 
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Location: Pietermaritzburg, South Africa
Hi Molossus the genetics he gave me for the parents are as follows

Father - blue cinnamon opaline split pied and clearhead cleartail.
Mother - dominant edge blue pied split clearhead cleartail

But when I enter that into the calculator, I don't seem to get a visual dominant edge blue cinnamon bird but only visual dominant edge blue, that's y I'm questioning the mutation of this bird

Thanks
Lushen

_________________
2014 Pairs
Green x Green
DGreen x DBlue
DE Blue/ino x DBlue
Grey/ino x Albino
Pallidino x Lutino
DE Blue Turq x Grey
DE Grey Turq x Blue
Greygreen/cinn x DE Blue Cinn
DE DBlue Turq x Blue Turq CHWT
Blue x DBlue Turq
Blue x Blue Pallid
Lutino/blue x Blue


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 7:42 am 
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Location: Pietermaritzburg, South Africa
Hi guys, just a little more information that may help, when comparing my normal blue cock from Pair 1 to the blue cock in question in Pair 3 I notice that the normal blue cock in Pair 1 has grey feet and black nails, whereas the blue cock in question has lighter coloured feet with much lighter coloured nails and the front inner toe nails on both feet are almost as lightly coloured as my lutino hens nails. When looking at Zahir Rana's website he mentions that a dominant edge is supposed to have grey feet with black nails and a cinnamon is supposed to have pinkish feet with lighter coloured nails, but this bird seem to have feet that are not as grey as a normal blue and also not as pink as a lutino, hope this helps

Thanks
Lushen

_________________
2014 Pairs
Green x Green
DGreen x DBlue
DE Blue/ino x DBlue
Grey/ino x Albino
Pallidino x Lutino
DE Blue Turq x Grey
DE Grey Turq x Blue
Greygreen/cinn x DE Blue Cinn
DE DBlue Turq x Blue Turq CHWT
Blue x DBlue Turq
Blue x Blue Pallid
Lutino/blue x Blue


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:07 am 
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Location: Pretoria, South Africa
Hi Lushen, the bird is definitely not a standard blue, thats for sure. I only recently developed an interest in edged birds (which I believe this is), but still needs to investigate the differences between the edged mutation, and the cinnamon edged mutation combination. There is much confusion about the mutation in SA, with some referring to cinnamon edged combinations as edged birds. Also, I can't seem to get straight answers from the locals, thats why I'm waiting with anticipation @Madas. He has a wonderful photo collection!

Also, as Molossus pointed out, then the bird should be split opaline and you can expect opaline hens in the offspring. You'll know in two seasons. And if this is indeed true, the bird is worth many thousands of rands. And the question you should ask yourself is, "Why would I get offered a pair of green / pieds worth less than R1k as a trade?" :?: As for trading them for green / pied and blue, I wouldn't even consider it. Not even if the cock isn't split opaline.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 12:57 pm 
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Hi thanks Molossus and Johan for the replies, I'm also waiting with anticipation for Madas to reply and now I know why the breeder wanted to buy the bird or swop it for split pieds, but I have no intention to sell or swop it.

Another question if you guys don't mind, I swopped the pairings last week before I knew that this bird wasn't an ordinary blue and now have this Blue cock to a Lutino hen and the original rainbow hen to a Lutino cock, I know that it would be better to pair the blue cock to the rainbow hen and I know that with it currently paired with a lutino hen I would probably only get green and perhaps cinnamon as well if the bird is if fact blue cinnamon and not just blue, but the reason why I swopped it is because the rainbow hen is only 1 year old and the lutino cock is also 1 year old and was with the mature lutino hen which showed no interest in him and wouldn't accept his advances, so I gave the mature lutino hen the mature blue cock and put the young lutino cock to the young rainbow hen. All seems to be fine and both hens have now accepted their new mates

What I would like to know is do you guys think that I should swop them around how they originally were paired or leave them as is for this season and look for a better hen for the cock for the new season. I personally wouldn't want to swop them again as its already breeding season and wouldn't want to disturb them as some of my other pairs are already on eggs, but would like to hear ur guys thoughts on this.

Thanks
Lushen

_________________
2014 Pairs
Green x Green
DGreen x DBlue
DE Blue/ino x DBlue
Grey/ino x Albino
Pallidino x Lutino
DE Blue Turq x Grey
DE Grey Turq x Blue
Greygreen/cinn x DE Blue Cinn
DE DBlue Turq x Blue Turq CHWT
Blue x DBlue Turq
Blue x Blue Pallid
Lutino/blue x Blue


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 11:25 pm 
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Location: Pretoria, South Africa
I would leave them as they are, since you say that they seem settled. The breeding outcome will still be interesting and provide some info regarding the cock. Next year, however, that cock should go to something other than an ino or pallid. These two mutations remove melanin from the flight feathers, which is exactly what we don't want in an edged bird, as it will mask the edged effect. There are many excellent options available. In your position, I'd go with cobalt, mauve or violet, depending on the budget. Unless, of course, you feel ready for some seriously interesting mutation combination breeding.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 4:15 am 
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Hi,

for my eyes your bird is dom. edged blue perhaps with cinnamon added (unsure because your pic quality isn't the best as you said). The brown greyish back could point to cinnamon. :) Have you checked the shaft color of the main tail resp. main flight feathers? Are they tending to a brown color??? How does the front part of the neck ring looks like? Dark brown?

So here are two pics of a rec. edged combo bird breed in the Netherlands:

Image

Image

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http://www.halsbandsittichmutationen.de

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 4:56 am 
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Location: Pretoria, South Africa
Thanks for the pictures, Madas. :D

Do you perhaps have some of a edged cinnamon? And does such a combination show the dark red eye of cinnamon?


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:20 am 
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Johan S wrote:
Thanks for the pictures, Madas. :D

Do you perhaps have some of a edged cinnamon? And does such a combination show the dark red eye of cinnamon?


Here is a pic of a cinnamon dom. edged Dblue:

Image

and of a dom. edged violetgreen:

Image

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 7:18 am 
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Hi, Thanks Madas for the reply, I have checked my bird and yes the tail shaft and main flight feather shafts are brownish in colour but the neck ring seems to be black to me, can't seem to look at the eye colour properly as this bird flies about so much when I go near the aviary, I will have to catch it again once breeding season is over to have proper look at the eye colour don't want to disturb them now, but on the other hand if it is a visual cinnamon, I should get some cinnamon hens, so will just have to wait and see.

Thanks
Lushen

_________________
2014 Pairs
Green x Green
DGreen x DBlue
DE Blue/ino x DBlue
Grey/ino x Albino
Pallidino x Lutino
DE Blue Turq x Grey
DE Grey Turq x Blue
Greygreen/cinn x DE Blue Cinn
DE DBlue Turq x Blue Turq CHWT
Blue x DBlue Turq
Blue x Blue Pallid
Lutino/blue x Blue


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:51 am 
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Location: Pretoria, South Africa
Madas, do have some pics of the tail/flight feathers of edged birds without cinnamon? I'd love to see the feather shaft without the cinnamon effect.

What is strange to me about the cinnamon edged Dblue bird is that the eye seems normal and not red.

Edit: I found a picture of our edged Dblue hen to compare with the cock above. This one is supposed to be without cinnamon, and if I recall correctly, from an imported line. It seems as if the wing coverts are more brownish in the cinnamon edged bird that Madas uploaded, while this one seems closer to the true blue. However, the tail feather shaft still seems brown on this bird. Would love to see some more pics!

Image

A better quality picture of the blue edged cock
Image

A blue edged hen
Image


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 12:01 am 
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Johan S wrote:
A blue edged hen
Image


Hi Johan,

hm i would say that this edged female is clearly a cinnamon dom. edged blue. I have compared your pics all the pics of cinnamon dom. edged birds shown in Bastiaans second book. And all show the same brownish tail shafts. But i will ask a friend of mine what he thinks about your bird.

Btw: The second bird in this pic very interesting too. Is it a violet(df) (very dark) or violet(df)cobalt, mauve or mauve violet???

Image

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 2:08 am 
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Thanks Madas, I appreciate your feedback and the effort of contacting somebody else. I will await his opinion with anticipation.

The edged blue (cinnamon) and edged Dblue hens were purchased from the same breeder. I will need to inquire whether they were from the same parents, where it could be a case of a blue edged / cinnamon cock (not crossed-over) being used to produce edged and edged cinnamon offspring. Unfortunately, in SA we have a situation where the two mutations were mixed and it is rather difficult to find pure edged birds without cinnamon. That is specifically why we purchased from this breeder, because we believed that his stock is purest as he imported birds from Europe. Now I believe that Europe is facing a similar situation. Perhaps you can confirm.

As for the second bird, I was rather shocked to see the forehead of the bird in the picture, being so purple. But it is just a normal mauve with no violet. :)

Also, if you have some pictures of the flight/tail feathers of edged birds, I'd love to have a look.


Last edited by Johan S on Wed Aug 15, 2012 2:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 2:32 am 
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Johan S wrote:
Thanks Madas, I appreciate your feedback and the effort of contacting somebody else. I will await his opinion with anticipation.

The edged blue (cinnamon) and edged Dblue hens were purchased from the same breeder. I will need to inquire whether they were from the same parents, where it could be a case of a blue edged / cinnamon cock (not crossed-over) being used to produce edged and edged cinnamon offspring. Unfortunately, in SA we have a situation where the two mutations were mixed and it is rather difficult to find pure edged birds without cinnamon. That is specifically why we purchased from this breeder, because we believed that his stock is purest as he imported birds from Europe. Now I believe that Europe is facing a similar situation. Perhaps you can confirm.


Hi Johan,

yeap, same here in Germany. Most dom. edged birds are combined with cinnamon because it was supposed that you can only breed dom. edged males or females (can't remember which one) by adding cinnamon. But i believe the breeders were confused by the breeding results they got which they couldn't understand. You know most edged breeders still think it is normal dominant mutation. But in real it is sexlinked dominant (DF, EF males and EF females looking like DF males).

Johan S wrote:
As for the second bird, I was rather shocked to see the forehead of the bird in the picture, being so purple. But it is just a normal mauve with no violet. :)


Did you get any offspring from this male? Any info on the parents? If not caused by your camera then the bird shows clearly a violet shine on the whole body.
Can i send the pic to another breeder for clarification?

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http://www.halsbandsittiche.de
http://www.halsbandsittichmutationen.de

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 4:15 am 
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madas wrote:
Did you get any offspring from this male? Any info on the parents? If not caused by your camera then the bird shows clearly a violet shine on the whole body.
Can i send the pic to another breeder for clarification?


The bird was paired with the cobalt edged hen in 2011 and produced three chicks. All three mauve hens. Two held back for our collection to replace cobalts. No eggs yet this season. You are welcome to send the pic on.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 4:23 am 
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Johan S wrote:
madas wrote:
Did you get any offspring from this male? Any info on the parents? If not caused by your camera then the bird shows clearly a violet shine on the whole body.
Can i send the pic to another breeder for clarification?


The bird was paired with the cobalt edged hen in 2011 and produced three chicks. All three mauve hens. Two held back for our collection to replace cobalts. No eggs yet this season. You are welcome to send the pic on.


Hi Johan,

can you send me some pics of the three mauve offspring hens? Are they all of exactly the same phenotype?

thx.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 12:12 am 
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Hi all just wanted to know what the value of dominant edge birds are in comparison to normal colours, the reason I ask is because I was thinking of keeping the dominant edge chicks from my pairing and replacing my normal colour birds with them, when the chicks are mature, would this be a good idea to eventually add the dominant edge factor to all my pairings?

Thanks
Lushen

_________________
2014 Pairs
Green x Green
DGreen x DBlue
DE Blue/ino x DBlue
Grey/ino x Albino
Pallidino x Lutino
DE Blue Turq x Grey
DE Grey Turq x Blue
Greygreen/cinn x DE Blue Cinn
DE DBlue Turq x Blue Turq CHWT
Blue x DBlue Turq
Blue x Blue Pallid
Lutino/blue x Blue


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 9:49 am 
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Hi Molossus, thanks for the reply, will wait to see what Johan has to say

Thanks
Lushen

_________________
2014 Pairs
Green x Green
DGreen x DBlue
DE Blue/ino x DBlue
Grey/ino x Albino
Pallidino x Lutino
DE Blue Turq x Grey
DE Grey Turq x Blue
Greygreen/cinn x DE Blue Cinn
DE DBlue Turq x Blue Turq CHWT
Blue x DBlue Turq
Blue x Blue Pallid
Lutino/blue x Blue


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 2:49 am 
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Location: Pretoria, South Africa
molossus wrote:
Lushen ask Johan...he is Dom edge crazy..
Johan .... Come out...I saw you.


You make me laugh, hey! :lol:

Lushen, here is the unfortunate sad truth(s) about our hobby. Some mutations are expensive, some mutations are cheap. Some mutations are easy to find, some mutations are rather difficult to almost impossible. Some mutations are popular, some are not. To me, it doesn't always make a lot of sense.

Some examples
Pied: Popularity = high. Availability = medium/high. Price = medium/high
Cleartail: Popularity = high. Availability = high. Price = medium
Opaline: Popularity = medium. Availability = low. Price = high
Bronzefallow: Popularity = low. Availability = extremely low. Price = medium
Dom. edge: Popularity = low/medium. Availability = low. Price = low (with cinnamon included) or low/medium (without cinnamon)

The above metric creates almost more questions than those that get answered. It does, however, provide for some opportunity. One can pick up rare birds (low availability) for rather cheap, given the mutation isn't very popular. I think good quality edged birds fall in this category. And then, when the masses decided that the time has come for a mutation to become the next best thing to sliced bread, then the prices sky rocket. And sometimes they never become popular. It is the risk you take. And because of this, I personally will not invest everything (money, time, effort, aviary space, other resources) into just one mutation.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 3:08 am 
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Ok thanks for the info Johan, what other mutations do you breed

Thanks
Lushen

_________________
2014 Pairs
Green x Green
DGreen x DBlue
DE Blue/ino x DBlue
Grey/ino x Albino
Pallidino x Lutino
DE Blue Turq x Grey
DE Grey Turq x Blue
Greygreen/cinn x DE Blue Cinn
DE DBlue Turq x Blue Turq CHWT
Blue x DBlue Turq
Blue x Blue Pallid
Lutino/blue x Blue


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:44 am 
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Lushen, between me and my dad we have blue, turquoise, grey, dark, violet, dilute, clearhead, edged (with and without cinnamon), ADM pied, opaline and bronzefallow. Hopefully I didn't forget anything.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:35 am 
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Hi Johan, had a look into Pair 3's box today, here are some pics

Image

Image

As you can see the hen is digging to see how deep the box is, she will keep on digging for a while, then when she is satisfied, she will level out the shaving with a small hollow in it in readiness to lay, so it will be a few weeks till she lays


Here are 2 pics of both of them together

Image

Image

Will keep you guys updated on the progress of this pair

Thanks
Lushen

_________________
2014 Pairs
Green x Green
DGreen x DBlue
DE Blue/ino x DBlue
Grey/ino x Albino
Pallidino x Lutino
DE Blue Turq x Grey
DE Grey Turq x Blue
Greygreen/cinn x DE Blue Cinn
DE DBlue Turq x Blue Turq CHWT
Blue x DBlue Turq
Blue x Blue Pallid
Lutino/blue x Blue


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