Cinnamon effect...

[sheyd]

so, after having these two birds in together I've noticed that the SL Edged (Cinnamon?)hen has a body colour that is about 2 shades lighter than the 9 month old Green SL Edged probable cock bird, has slightly lighter nails than him and has maybe half-to a shade head darker than her body- but this is hardly noticeable unless you look- but does show up well in photos- maybe something structural happening there?
she also has a different pitch to her voice than any of my other IRN's.

Wing shots were a no-go. I have no experience with handling aviary birds and found them way to hard to hold/handle even with gloves.- so my apologies to those who were looking forward to them.

pics were taken in the morning, shaded aviary- cloudy, but sunny day.

[madas]

so, after having these two birds in together I've noticed that the SL Edged (Cinnamon?)hen has a body colour that is about 2 shades lighter than the 9 month old Green SL Edged probable cock bird, has slightly lighter nails than him and has maybe half-to a shade head darker than her body- but this is hardly noticeable unless you look- but does show up well in photos- maybe something structural happening there?
she also has a different pitch to her voice than any of my other IRN's.

Wing shots were a no-go. I have no experience with handling aviary birds and found them way to hard to hold/handle even with gloves.- so my apologies to those who were looking forward to them.

pics were taken in the morning, shaded aviary- cloudy, but sunny day.

SL Edged females are lighter then SL Edged (ef) males. This is caused by the sexlinked dominant inheritence. EF males look like an intermediate phenotyp between SL Edged female and normal green. The DF Expression is only possible in males because they are carrying two Z-Chromosoms and females only one. The DF male version is the Counterpart to the SL Edged female.

[Johan S]

she also has a different pitch to her voice than any of my other IRN's.

Interesting observation! I have not picked up on this in edged birds. However, some adm pieds have a very high/"sweet" pitch, and some bronze fallows sound very similar to african ringnecks.

[Ring0Neck]

Check out the first pic on Ron's website
A Deep Turq.Blue Dom Edged, very nice
http://fabulousparrots.com.au/photos.cfm

[madas]

Check out the first pic on Ron's website
A Deep Turq.Blue Dom Edged, very nice
http://fabulousparrots.com.au/photos.cfm

Sorry but nothing more then normal SL Edged turqBlue for my eyes. I can't see any deep coloration.
Tail looks like the one of SL Edged blue.

madas

[Carr.birds]

Stefan

I agree with you. Must admit it is a beautiful sf sl edged cock but can't see any deep colour which is normally noticeable in the center tail feathers and flights

See pic of dark blueturq sf sl edged cock



Tienie

[sheyd]

Madas- yes, was thinking along those lines- but wasn't 100%.

she also has a different pitch to her voice than any of my other IRN's.

Interesting observation! I have not picked up on this in edged birds. However, some adm pieds have a very high/"sweet" pitch, and some bronze fallows sound very similar to african ringnecks.

Yes, very distinctive - could sound 'sweet' I suppose- anyhow it is different to the SL Edged male (who sounds just like my others). Will try and get a recording if you're interested?

Anyone notice that the lower beak is a brownish colour and not black like what's described in http://psittacula-world.com/EN/Mutation ... Edged.htm- also, the tail feather shafts are a brownish colour- both of my green SL Edged birds* have it - how about everyone elses?

*no parent history on the young cock- was community bred so the breeder doesn't know which were the parents- and she didn't keep them where she lived, so I couldn't view them for myself.

[madas]

Check out the first pic on Ron's website
A Deep Turq.Blue Dom Edged, very nice
http://fabulousparrots.com.au/photos.cfm

But there is another very intersting bird. violetgreen dom. pied. What is your opinion regarding this bird.
For my eyes the "yellow" color is a Little bit to light and creamy for being a true green series bird. Only
mutation which is throwing such a creamy yellow Color is Aqua resp. emerald.

madas

[Ring0Neck]

But there is another very intersting bird. violetgreen dom. pied. What is your opinion regarding this bird.
For my eyes the "yellow" color is a Little bit to light and creamy for being a true green series bird. Only
mutation which is throwing such a creamy yellow Color is Aqua resp. emerald.

madas

Yes, i downloaded yesterday the same pic to have a closer look at it when i have time. good point.
certainly looks emerald.

[Johan S]

Check out the first pic on Ron's website
A Deep Turq.Blue Dom Edged, very nice
http://fabulousparrots.com.au/photos.cfm

But there is another very intersting bird. violetgreen dom. pied. What is your opinion regarding this bird.
For my eyes the "yellow" color is a Little bit to light and creamy for being a true green series bird. Only
mutation which is throwing such a creamy yellow Color is Aqua resp. emerald.

madas

Well spotted and I agree that the yellow tones are not in line with normal fluorescent psittacin of the wildtype. That could very easily be an emerald(aqua) violet green harlequin.

@Ben, I think you should make an offer on this bird.

[Ring0Neck]

@Ben, I think you should make an offer on this bird.

Hahaha
I would not do that to him. I emailed Ron and told him of it being possibly Emerald
It can be that he just forgot to name it so on the website?!

[sheyd]

@Ben, I think you should make an offer on this bird.

Hahaha
I would not do that to him. I emailed Ron and told him of it being possibly Emerald
It can be that he just forgot to name it so on the website?!

eagerly awaiting his response! Would have been quicker to ring him though

[Johan S]

@Ben, I think you should make an offer on this bird.

Hahaha
I would not do that to him. I emailed Ron and told him of it being possibly Emerald
It can be that he just forgot to name it so on the website?!

No, I didn't mean you should try and sneak it out from under him. I think you should make him a decent offer on a very nice bird.

[Ring0Neck]

Ron called & confirmed it is indeed a Deep Turquoise blue Dom. Edged.
He bred deep blues from him, as i understand.

Ron will email me some pics soon of when he was younger where it shows more of the deep.

The green violet dom pied ... Ron will get back to me; it is in fact a DF violet green dom pied;
I think Madas is right
Ron acquired this bird from a breeder i know, it is possible that the breeder sold it as pied only because he believed that emerald can not be in green series birds?
Ron will talk to the original breeder of parentage etc.. will update once i know.

[Recio]

SL Edged females are lighter then SL Edged (ef) males. This is caused by the sexlinked dominant inheritence. EF males look like an intermediate phenotyp between SL Edged female and normal green. The DF Expression is only possible in males because they are carrying two Z-Chromosoms and females only one. The DF male version is the Counterpart to the SL Edged female.

Hi Madas,

According to your description the SL Edged mutation is not a dominant sex linked mutation but an incomplete dominant sex linked mutation, since the heterozygous male phenotype is different than either the phenotype of the homozygous male or of the hemizygous female.

In this situation (incomplete dominant mutations) we could wander how this mutation acts: is it a partial inhibitory mechanism or is it a partial activatory mechanism? First let's look to what happens in parblues: we can conclude that parblues in IRN act through a partial activatory mechanism in the synthesis of psittacines because homozygous parblues (Turquoise, Indigo, ...) show more psittacin than the heterozygous parblues (TurquoiseBlue, IndigoBlue, ...).
What happens in SL edged mutations? the "intensity" of the mutation is similar in the homozygous bird (analogy with the homozygous parblue) than in the females (analogy with the heterozygous parblue which only shows one active allele, since blue is a null mutation). In this situation we could speculate that the SL mutation acts through a partial inhibitory mechanism so that both alleles must be mutated in the male to inhibit as far as one single allele does in the female. If it was a partial activatory mechanism the intensity of the mutation should have been higher in the female than in the male, which should have shown a phenotype closer to the wild type through the cumulative effect of both mutated alleles (similar to the phenotype of homozygous parblue which is closer to the phenotype of the wild type... they show more psittacine). In the latter situation the "intensity" of the mutation would have been: females > homozygous males > heterozygous males > wild birds

Regards

Recio

[madas]

In the latter situation the "intensity" of the mutation would have been: females > homozygous males > heterozygous males > wild birds

Let the pics speak:

SL Edged(df) green male(s):





SL Edged green female:



madas

[Johan S]

In this situation (incomplete dominant mutations) we could wander how this mutation acts: is it a partial inhibitory mechanism or is it a partial activatory mechanism? First let's look to what happens in parblues: we can conclude that parblues in IRN act through a partial activatory mechanism in the synthesis of psittacines because homozygous parblues (Turquoise, Indigo, ...) show more psittacin than the heterozygous parblues (TurquoiseBlue, IndigoBlue, ...).

Hi Recio, here you ask a good question, but I think your first conclusion is incorrect. You are comparing psittacin production with that of a blue bird to end up with a partial activating mechanism. We should compare with the wildtype, not with another mutation. How does a parblue compare with the wildtype? Some psittacin production is inhibited and it shows blue regions not seen in the wildtype. So our first conclusion should actually be that a parblue is a partial inhibitory mechanism. Of course, technically you aren't wrong. And every coin has two sides. And for such cases a convention is agreed upon. And as you know, with genetics the convention is to compare with the wildtype.

Granted, the above is a little bit off topic.

I do agree that the SL edged is an incomplete dominant mutation, rather than merely dominant or complete dominant. This is clear enough from hetero-/homozygous cocks.

[sheyd]

Great pictures Madas! I don't know why, but the head on your Green DF SL Edged cock surprised me- was not expecting that.

could be the light, but their tails don't seem to have much blue in them- could you confirm? Also, what colour would you say the feather shafts (rachis) are on both of them?

As for mine, I would say the male has slighter darker shafts- but both birds have brown. I have been back through this thread looking, and the shafts on the blue series cocks appear greyish- can anyone confirm?

[Recio]

Hi Madas,

From your pics (thanks a lot) it seems that, as you wrote, the SL edged female and the homozygous male show similar features. Nevertheless if we want properly compare both birds we should carefull look at feathers not exhibiting any sex dependent feature. I think that the primary wing flying feathers are perfect and they also show the edged pattern. A pic of the open wings of the homozygous male, the heterozygous male, the mutated female and a wild bird in the same shot would be perfect (you just need 8 hands to handle the birds and the camera ) and would allow to conclude about this subject.

Regards

Recio

[Recio]

Hi Johan,

As you say there is a convention to describe mutations by comparing the phenotype respective to the wild phenotype ... but this is just a convention allowing us to easierly work in our minds with common concepts. Anyway this convention prones some wrong ideas in our minds:

First wrong idea: the wild gene is the "normal" gene, the alleles are something like an illness or an alteration of the normal state. In fact the wild gene is just another allele which is the most prevalent in that population, at this place and at that time in the evolution of this specific species.

Second wrong idea: mutations are dominant, recessive or incomplete dominant. What we call an inheritance pattern is the result of the behaviour of two different alleles. I can say that grey is a dominant mutation but I should better say that grey behaves as dominant respective to the wild gene, or I could also say that the wild gene behaves as recessive respective to grey. Similar for Blue: I can say that blue behaves as recessive respective to the wild gene or that the wild gene behaves as dominant respective to blue. Another exemple: we can say that dom pied behaves as incomplete dominant mutation respective to the wild gene and we can also say that the wild gene behaves as incomplete dominant respective to dom pied (in fact we should say as incomplete recessive ... but this would be another discussion). The alleles ARE NOT dom, rec, ... BUT BEHAVE AS dominant, recessives, ...

In the specific case of parblues we can say that parblues behave as dominant respective to blue, and we can also say that they behave as recessive respective to the wild allele. Both sentences are rigth. In this system the blue mutation is the null mutation and it completelly inhibits any psittacin synthesis. Parblues act by allowing to partially produce psittacin. We could wander if this is made by a partially inhibitory or a partially activatory mechanism. In the case of parblues IRN the presence of a higher amount of psittacins in the homozygous birds respective to the heterozygous ParblueBlue allows us to conclude that there is a partially activatory mechanism at work. In other species the homozygous parblues show less psittacin than the heterozygous birds and so, in these other species, we should say that the mechanism at work is of the partially inhibitory type. Of course the metabolic step afected in each species is not the same, and we should not treat as the same mutation parblues behaving differently in DF respective to the heterozygous forms (it would be like treating as the same mutation SL-ino and NSL-ino just because both are yellow birds). We do not know what is really happening but we treat the information following the black box model you perfectly know.

This was just to explain why we can apply a similar reasoning to the analyse of incomplete dominant SL mutations... but I understand perfectly what you were meaning.

Regards

Recio

[Ring0Neck]

Recio said: ...and we should not treat as the same mutation parblues behaving differently in DF respective to the heterozygous forms (it would be like treating as the same mutation SL-ino and NSL-ino just because both are yellow birds).

2 year olds df turquoise - note the lighter nails and head same color as body
should we treat these different in your opinion to the norm df turquoise?
(not my birds)




Willy's pic of df turquoise (left)

[Recio]

Hi Ben,

Parblues act on psittacin production but not on melanin, so the ligther nails in a turquoise bird would not be related to the parblue mutation. Could it be the sign of another mutation in the bird? ...may be split for that other mutation? .... minor genes?

We do not really know how melanin deposition in nails is regulated. Ex: we accept that a cinnamon bird show ligth nails ... but I have seen pics of cinnamon birds with dark nails

Regards

Recio