1 or 2 Violet Factors?

[sheyd]

Hi all,
I picked up my newest bird (a Dark sfViolet) yesterday afternoon-
it is now the next morning, and I am wondering if he might have a second Violet Factor- he is a greyish purple up close, but purple from a distance -as can be seen in the pics (last 4 pics are 'bluer' than what you see with your actual eye, first 3 are a good representation up close).

Parents were sfDark sfViolet Blue cock and a dfViolet hen.









interested in hearing your thoughts.

[trabots]

I have several Dark Violet Blues, none are like that bird. I agree, it has 2 Violet factors.

[madas]

I have several Dark Violet Blues, none are like that bird. I agree, it has 2 Violet factors.

But then without a dark factor.

[Ring0Neck]

Shey,

Looking at the first 3 pics i too think it's sf dark df violetblue.
Madas has a point, it can be df violet but you can tell us that; if you have seen the mother and it is not as dark as this bird, perhaps the mother has less greyish and more sharp violet.
if the bird does not resemble the father or the mother in phenotype then you have a df vio sf dark

are you breeding with this bird this year? or try to at least?

[madas]

pics of Johan:

violet cobalt (is fitting the violet cobalts i own)



violet(df)cobalt

[sheyd]

Yes, have seen these pics before- as Johan has once said- you need to take the light into consideration when looking at a photo. I have seen another pic of that family of birds where the sfDark dfViolet & the sfDark sfViolet Blue look very similar.

They are also of the strain of Violet that looks violet with only one copy- so I can't go by these.

[sheyd]

Shey,

Looking at the first 3 pics i too think it's sf dark df violetblue.
Madas has a point, it can be df violet but you can tell us that; if you have seen the mother and it is not as dark as this bird, perhaps the mother has less greyish and more sharp violet.
if the bird does not resemble the father or the mother in phenotype then you have a df vio sf dark

are you breeding with this bird this year? or try to at least?

The bird came from interstate - I have seen low(very) res pics of the parents and a sibling- can send you the pics if you want.

Won't be breeding with him this year- but will next.

I am happy with him regardless- am more curious than anything else.

[Johan S]

Shey, contact the seller and ask the very simple question, "did the bird look like the cock it was bred from?"

I can assure you that if the breeder paid any attention, he would have noticed if the offspring was the same as the father or notably darker. Irrespective of the light, that difference is always there and the identification is simple enough as the parents will make excellent reference birds. Then one only has to wonder, if it differed from the cock, why not sell it as a cobalt violet (df)? That is a much more valuable bird. I won't try and draw conclusions from the pictures, though. Here I would trust the seller (if it is a knowledgeable breeder).

Edit: This might be the picture you are referring to

[sheyd]

Hi Johan (yes that's the one)
-The breeder said (before I'd even bought the bird) that between the sibling (also supposed to be a Dark Violet) the *sire and the *dam there were hardly any differences between them in the aviary and couldn't tell who was who unless it was caught and the band read- sire excluded, but said that he & the sibling matched the sire.
He also said that he couldn't be sure that my bird might not carry two Violet factors in addition to the Dark Factor. But sold it as a sfDark sfViolet because he said that he could not be sure- as he doesn't know if he's ever bred one. He sold this bird and its brother (and a few others he had) cheap as he needed breeding space.

Like I said- I'm completely happy with the bird and will be a repeat customer

I only got curious as as you can see the bird is strangely grayish (more grey coloured than purple) up close.

*he knew the grandsire & dam info as to what the parents were.

[sheyd]

I have several Dark Violet Blues, none are like that bird. I agree, it has 2 Violet factors.

Thanks Willy, are able to share a pic of your Dark Violets please?

[trabots]

[URL=http://s1305.photobucket.com/user/ ... .jpg[/img][/url][/img]

[sheyd]

Thanks Willy.
It's really hard to say- I think it's safe to say that I'll find out next year if I can get him to breed for me

here he is (with my reg Blue- same bird in avatar) on the afternoon I got him- he is visually purple in real life- not bluish purple, but purple - but doesn't come out that way in his pics from a distance up close though he is more greyish than purple-


Thankyou everyone.

-Ben let me know if you ever come up this way - you would have seen plenty in the flesh (I bet) to know what it is or not

[Johan S]

here he is (with my reg Blue- same bird in avatar) on the afternoon I got him- he is visually purple in real life- not bluish purple, but purple - but doesn't come out that way in his pics from a distance up close though he is more greyish than purple-

Shey, I know what you mean with the blueish photos. It is really hard to get the right colour in the photo. If you are taking the picture in the shade, try to get the colour temperature at 6500K. Normally, the 'overcast' or 'shade' preset on the camera is close to this value. That way they picture will be closer to the real thing. The next thing then is the display you use on your PC/laptop/tablet. There is a very large variation in the colour accuracy of displays. I have a Samsung and LG monitor next to one another in a dual screen setup, and the same picture on both screens also look completely different.

Getting back to the bird, if one takes a cobalt violet(sf) and cobalt violet(df) in two different collections, it again becomes harder to tell apart. When they are in the same aviary, the difference is actually fairly big. Hopefully my picture shows this. But, like I said, it would be more difficult if you have only one of the two to work with. That's why I'm in full agreement with Willy. Anybody seriously interested in mutations should start a feather collection. Since I've started mine, I have been able to conclusively help a lot of breeders around me. It also assists when you purchase birds.

[trabots]

A DF Violet does not have any 'greyness' unlike a DF Violet Cobalt which does. There have been images posted here before clearly showing the 'grey' wash over the back and neck.

[sheyd]

adjusted- (thanks Johan)



Yes, I am keeping feathers- I really only started my collection of birds this year so- will have to wait until they moult.

[sheyd]

A DF Violet does not have any 'greyness' unlike a DF Violet Cobalt which does. There have been images posted here before clearly showing the 'grey' wash over the back and neck.

thanks for this info Willy.

[madas]

A DF Violet does not have any 'greyness' unlike a DF Violet Cobalt which does.

Are Sure? Attached comparison of Tienie:



From memories - upper row turq or indigo dark violet(ef)blue, violet(df)blue and violet(ef)blue - bottom row Indigo violet(ef)blue
So for me the violet(df)blue clearly shows a greyish shine.

@Tienie: please correct me if i labeled them wrong.

[Ring0Neck]

too much sunbathing perhaps, ;)

Tiennie, would you have a recent pic of the df violet bird?

[sheyd]

old setting (note date)


................
adjusted for shade: this was taken in the morning with the two front on pics above. This bird is not blue in the slightest, viewing with your eye- it is purple- a cold purple.
Also, he is only greyish up close- so doesn't match any of Tienies birds in the pic (unless the grey on the backs and heads comes from the sun and or aging?)

[Johan S]

Cobalt violet turquoiseblue vs violet(df). Young birds going into their 3 month moult. Not sure if it will help.

[Ring0Neck]

Shey,

is this the true color of your bird?

http://parakeet.me/irn/f/3mlz.jpg

[Carr.birds]

Stefan

You have labeled them correctly. The pic was taken on the 8th of May 2013. The df violet blue is a proven imported American cock.

I will take pics this weekend of 2012 birds for comparison

American df violet blue, American sf violet cobalt, American sf violet blue and American sf violet "SA deep" blue edged (cock)

Tienie

[sheyd]

iphone 4s 07:00 (black shading in the corner is from the cover does not affect the image in any way)




uploading more- having trouble with computer bear with me..

[sheyd]

Shey,

is this the true color of your bird?

http://parakeet.me/irn/f/3mlz.jpg

if it were darker- looks too bright.

this may seem a bit silly, but I thought about getting a Cadbury wrapper and putting it in there- as Cadbury's packaging is universal in colour.

[trabots]

Are Sure? Attached comparison of Tienie:

In my birds yes. This image was posted elsewhere and previously.

[URL=http://s1305.photobucket.com/user/ ... .jpg[/img][/url]

[sheyd]

Cobalt violet turquoiseblue vs violet(df). Young birds going into their 3 month moult. Not sure if it will help.

Thanks Johan- would you happen to have any pics of your dfViolets, sfDark sfViolet Blues or sfDark dfViolets from the front?

Tienie- looking forward to them.

[Ring0Neck]

Shey,

is this the true color of your bird?

http://parakeet.me/irn/f/3mlz.jpg

if it were darker- looks too bright.

Shey,
hmm
The bird top left is uncofirmed df violet cobalt (paired to a blue).

[sheyd]

Shey,

is this the true color of your bird?

http://parakeet.me/irn/f/3mlz.jpg

if it were darker- looks too bright.

Shey,
hmm
The bird top left is uncofirmed df violet cobalt (paired to a blue).

haha- I thought we were trying to id my bird, not yours! I have some more pics I'll upload soon when I get a chance.

[madas]

Are Sure? Attached comparison of Tienie:

In my birds yes. This image was posted elsewhere and previously.

So the second bird from left should be a violet(df)blue, right? For my eyes this bird shows some greyish shine like the bird right beside him. Not as much as the bird right beside him but notable.

madas

[madas]

As said in my first answer i still vote for a violet(df)blue but without a dark factor.

[sheyd]

threw this in anyway-

[Johan S]

Cobalt violet turquoiseblue vs violet(df). Young birds going into their 3 month moult. Not sure if it will help.

Thanks Johan- would you happen to have any pics of your dfViolets, sfDark sfViolet Blues or sfDark dfViolets from the front?

Unfortunately, none of the first birds. But here are some more of the last.

Cobalt violet(df) (brother and sister)



@Ben, a little treat for you, since you love CHF more than the next guy. The hen on the left is a cobalt violet(sf) CHF. Her son is next to her. Do you think the slight difference in colour is caused by CHF expression (mature hen vs 3 month old cock), age of feathers (full season vs 3 summer months), or possibly another violet factor? We've kept this guy back to see how he develops.

[sheyd]

As said in my first answer i still vote for a violet(df)blue but without a dark factor.

Thanks Madas

[sheyd]

Cobalt violet turquoiseblue vs violet(df). Young birds going into their 3 month moult. Not sure if it will help.

Thanks Johan- would you happen to have any pics of your dfViolets, sfDark sfViolet Blues or sfDark dfViolets from the front?

Unfortunately, none of the first birds. But here are some more of the last.

Thankyou so much for sharing these!- they (yours and mine) do look similar- would a dfViolet look the same?

[Johan S]

Thankyou so much for sharing these!- they (yours and mine) do look similar- would a dfViolet look the same?

My pleasure!

And no, these birds are quite a bit "darker" than a violet(df). If you have a violet(df) and mauve next to one another, these birds will fit in somewhere in between. I believe that all our structural mutations (bar grey) will saturate towards mauve if we keep adding more to the bird. I think this might also be what Willy meant by more "greyish" in a cobalt violet than a violet(df), which could possibly be less confusing if we rather use the term "mauvish". But I could be wrong here. Willy can confirm if that is what he meant.

[Ring0Neck]

Johan,

Thanks for the pics ;) as far as the young i think he has same genitcal makeup as the mother, he will darken when older and i also think due to being a CHF male he might have a lighter phenotype then a hen would..
you said:

I believe that all our structural mutations (bar grey) will saturate towards mauve if we keep adding more to the bird. I think this might also be what Willy meant by more "greyish" in a cobalt violet than a violet(df), which could possibly be less confusing if we rather use the term "mauvish". But I could be wrong here. Willy can confirm if that is what he meant.

Johan well said!

Shey: Uncofirmed means i have not bred with him yet to be proven and also i did not breed him to know for sure.
If we go back to basics 1.0.1 phenotype does not always sufice to be 100% certain.
There's breeders out there that say one can not tell from an sf violet to df violet and i believe it to be true in some cases, perhaps Recio can come up with some reasons why, but in general i think it's to do with minor modifiers .

for some it could just be old age

[trabots]

I house all of my ringnecks in a large flight aviary in the off season. This aviary is below my deck so I throw some seed on the ground (they are on a pelleted diet) and so being flock, ground feeders they immediately all hit the ground below me. It is a little game I play every afternoon at cocktail time to try and identify my Blue birds. In bright sun it is near impossible, for my eyes they all can look 'grey' depending on where they are in the aviary. Remember our eyes are all different in the way we perceive that end of the spectrum. I have non bird people who come over and see a 'grey' appearing bird which to my eyes is 'dark' blue or 'violet'. Deep, Dark and Violet are all structural mutations affecting the frequencies at which light is reflected to our eyes. The angle of incidence of the feather in relation to the source light also affects these frequencies. When I say 'grey' in the context of the actual colour of the bird I mean a wash of actual 'mauve' type colour with the extreme of course being a Mauve. I should have many Blue birds this year with 3 'dark' factors as in DF Deep Violet, Deep Dark Violet, DF Violet Dark, DF Deep Dark, Deep DF Violet and I anticipate that only the birds with a Dark factor in them will have this 'mauve' colouration. The others with combinations of only Violet and Deep will not.

[trabots]

Further to this, Dark unlike Violet and Deep is a structure destroying mutation as evidenced in the Mauve or DF Dark Blue in which the feather structure is nearly all destroyed. That is why I distinguish 'grey' as a perceived colour of most darkened Blue birds in certain light situations and 'mauve' as in whatever light, there is some destruction of structure giving an actual 'mauve' colouration.

Interestingly Mauve when combined with Violet, has areas in which the destruction of structure has been 'impeded' by the Violet mutation. Around the cere, and on the rump is where this is most evident and where a Violet sheen is easily seen. This makes me wonder if a DF Violet Mauve will have even more visible Violet expression.

Just out of the nest this Violet Mauve displays several Violet feathers everywhere which when it reaches final expression is confined to the areas mention above.

[URL=http://s1305.photobucket.com/user/ ... .jpg[/img][/url]

[sheyd]

Thankyou so much for sharing these!- they (yours and mine) do look similar- would a dfViolet look the same?

My pleasure!

And no, these birds are quite a bit "darker" than a violet(df). If you have a violet(df) and mauve next to one another, these birds will fit in somewhere in between. I believe that all our structural mutations (bar grey) will saturate towards mauve if we keep adding more to the bird. I think this might also be what Willy meant by more "greyish" in a cobalt violet than a violet(df), which could possibly be less confusing if we rather use the term "mauvish". But I could be wrong here. Willy can confirm if that is what he meant.

Makes perfect sense- thankyou for taking the time to explain- if only I had seen a Mauve or a dfViolet I'd probably have a better understanding of the way those mutations react with one another. Since I'd never seen a Mauve I used the term 'greyish'.

Ben- That was my failed attempt at humor- I was not to know that you suspected the bird in your pic a sfDark dfViolet- my bad. hope it turns out he is for you

[sheyd]

Further to this, Dark unlike Violet and Deep is a structure destroying mutation as evidenced in the Mauve or DF Dark Blue in which the feather structure is nearly all destroyed. That is why I distinguish 'grey' as a perceived colour of most darkened Blue birds in certain light situations and 'mauve' as in whatever light, there is some destruction of structure giving an actual 'mauve' colouration.

Interestingly Mauve when combined with Violet, has areas in which the destruction of structure has been 'impeded' by the Violet mutation. Around the cere, and on the rump is where this is most evident and where a Violet sheen is easily seen. This makes me wonder if a DF Violet Mauve will have even more visible Violet expression.

Just out of the nest this Violet Mauve displays several Violet feathers everywhere which when it reaches final expression is confined to the areas mention above.

Interesting Willy- I was wondering about that- there are such slight differences- that obviously go unnoticed by many.