white on white

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Ring0Neck
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Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 2:24 am
Location: Brisbane QLD AUS

Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck »

Hi Kappa,

Welcome to the forum.
I'm assuming you live in Oz?

Would you be able to tell us more re:
the origin of the Oz green deeps?
parents of the birds?
did you breed with any green deeps yet? to confirm deep blue offspring?
How did you identify the deep green pallid from a normal green pallid?
as you said, it's almost identical to wildtype green and pallid will not make it any easier.

perpahs some pictures which you can email me & i can upload for you
ringneck @ techemail.com

Cheers
Ben
Kappa
Posts: 195
Joined: Tue May 28, 2013 12:02 am

Re: white on white

Post by Kappa »

Hi Ben,

Yes I am from oz.

I bought these birds off a friend who has some of the original Jack Smith deep greens and some of the very first oz deep blues. The birds I have are actually half brother and sister. They share the same deep green mother. The cocks father was a oz deep blue and the hens father was a deep green pallid. It is only by knowing the back grounds of the birds that I am confident that they are both deeps. As I mentioned before, visually the sf deep greens are difficult to tell apart from the wild green type.
They are rising 4yr olds and I had them with normal blues last season to try and breed some deep blues, however the cock was with a 2yr old hen who wasn't sure what to do. The hen was with a blue split pallid and they produced a normal blue and a normal (possible deep) green.
This season I will put them together and see what happens.

I will endeavour to take some photos that may be of some use and email them to you.

Kappa.
Ring0Neck
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Location: Brisbane QLD AUS

Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck »

Kappa,

Great to have you with us.
It will help a lot confirming the phenotype of the deep green.

Ron has some sf & df deep green pics from Jack S. i will upload them as well for comparison if Ron finds them and emails them to me. Willy, i think the pics you uploaded might just be the true deep green perhaps same pics originally from Jack? :?:



Gratz
Thanks for the Indigo pictures, Great work.


sheyd
Posts: 1293
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2008 11:22 pm

Re: white on white

Post by sheyd »

Ben-cheers
yes, she is still a baby (8 months) so has a bit of maturing yet to do- so, Turquoise or Indigo (on Blue) darkens the base and adds a greenish tinge and then eventually patches (in the case of my bird and others like her).

Gratz- great pics, thanks for sharing.

Kappa- am looking forward to pics of your Deep Greens.
Johan S
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Location: Pretoria, South Africa

Re: white on white

Post by Johan S »

Kappa wrote:I will endeavour to take some photos that may be of some use and email them to you.

Kappa.
Hi Kappa, welcome to the forum! :D I'm really looking forward to those pictures, esp. if you can capture it with a normal green bird in the same picture as a reference.

As a point of interest, does the deep green birds show small patches of blue on the wings (covert feathers)?
Kappa
Posts: 195
Joined: Tue May 28, 2013 12:02 am

Re: white on white

Post by Kappa »

Hi Johan,

I unfortunately don't have a normal green to use as a reference, but I will take some photos anyway. It is dark by the time I get home from work so the photos will have to wait until the weekend, when I will email them to Ben. He may also be able to upload some photos of normal green birds that can be used as a comparison. As for the blue spots in the wings, I think he does but I will double check that for you.
Cheers
Kappa
Ring0Neck
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Location: Brisbane QLD AUS

Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck »

Kappa's sf Green Deep


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Last edited by Ring0Neck on Sat Jun 01, 2013 1:11 am, edited 2 times in total.
sheyd
Posts: 1293
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2008 11:22 pm

Re: white on white

Post by sheyd »

Cheers Kappa, and to Ben for uploading the pics.

The first pic with a flash makes one not expecting the following pics- would you say the blue in the tail is bluer than a Wildtype- (Wildtype to me looks more teal)?
Ring0Neck
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Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 2:24 am
Location: Brisbane QLD AUS

Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck »

Well, as we can see from the deep green pics Deep is lightly diff. to what we expected, nothing like the dark which i guess it's a good thing as we will be able to differentiate between dark n deep in green series birds but i wonder if it is easy to differentiate between deep green and wildtype :?: . I must get a deep green asap.

Ron will also send me the pics of deep green in sf df from the man: Jack Smith.
I think the df deep green Willy posted is the photo Ron is going to send me. I believe this photo is
from Jack as i know he used aviaries with chicken wire.
Here's the pic that Willy uploaded a while back
DF Deep green
Image

Kappa, does this pic look like the DF deep green to you?

The phenotype looks very much like the Jade green cheek conures in sf & df (esp. when flash is used)
rustic look


83IV
Kappa
Posts: 195
Joined: Tue May 28, 2013 12:02 am

Re: white on white

Post by Kappa »

Hi everyone,

First I would like to thank Ben for posting the photos for me. I hope that they were helpful.
I will, if that's ok, send some more photos to Ben including some of the deep green pallid hen. If was too hard to hold the bird in one hand and take photos with the other, I will have an extra pair of hands tomorrow.
The blue in the tail is definately different from that of the normal green, it seems more blue. He also has some blue patches on the leading edge of his wings and the flights and tail show olive highlights in different lighting conditions. The flash photo demonstrates this. However, this doesn't help much because in certain lighting conditions he looks like a normal green. The difference is very subtle.

I haven't seen a df deep as most breeders I know have been more interested in breeding the deep blue,and haven't really thought about what df deep green would look like.

Ben that photo you posted is what I would expect of a df deep, and is what I am hoping for this season. The olive would definately come through more.
Cheers,
Kappa
Ring0Neck
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Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 2:24 am
Location: Brisbane QLD AUS

Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck »

back to the drawing board

Yep, true that.

Kappa's pics of Deep Green


Firstly we need to see a deep blue offspring from these birds to confirm them as being deep,
i am not doubting Kappa, we just need to be 100% certain what we're looking at are indeed deep greens since they are so close to a wildtype how can one be sure the birds carry the deep mutation?


As Kappa said, he will try to get a wildtype green to compare birds in same shot (photo)
Very hard to tell the difference between Kappa's Deep Green male & a normal green. pics are very tricky, as Willy says; birds to compare should be taken in the same photo otherwise it's pointless.

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Ring0Neck
Posts: 1714
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 2:24 am
Location: Brisbane QLD AUS

Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck »

Kappa
In this pic the male looks like a normal green but the hen you can see the rustic look to her.
Are you sure both greens in this pic are green deep?
Image

below a 2 pics of my green irn (wildtype)
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Kappa
Posts: 195
Joined: Tue May 28, 2013 12:02 am

Re: white on white

Post by Kappa »

Hi Ben,
The photo of the green cock and hen are actually wild type greens belong to someone else, but as you have mentioned the hen does have a rusty colour in her flights. So it begs the question is there deep greens out there that breeders are not aware of having, and being passed off as normals?

Also when comparing your wild type green it looks as if the blue in his tail extends much further up than it does on my deep. I need to chase up a normal green ASAP and take photos of it with my deep so that an accurate comparison can be made. In the end we may find that they carry the deep gene, but it might not manifest itself visually in sf. This however, only raises more questions because how can we then account for sf deep blue being visually different from a normal blue? Does the blue activate a new gene or does the green mask the deep? More questions than answers at the moment.
Cheers,
Kappa.
Kappa
Posts: 195
Joined: Tue May 28, 2013 12:02 am

Re: white on white

Post by Kappa »

Hi Ben,
Just had another idea, can you please take a photo of your normal green cock bird under darkish conditions using a flash. I am curious is see how much of the rusty colour is exposed on him.
Thanks,
Kappa.
Ring0Neck
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Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 2:24 am
Location: Brisbane QLD AUS

Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck »

In the end we may find that they carry the deep gene, but it might not manifest itself visually in sf. This however, only raises more questions because how can we then account for sf deep blue being visually different from a normal blue? Does the blue activate a new gene or does the green mask the deep? More questions than answers at the moment.
Kappa, not a lot of questions.. think of process of Dark green + blue = Cobalt
green deep + blue = sf Deep blue

it is that simple, and it will manifest in sf. deep blue ; easy to identify against a blue

what i want to learn is how to identify wildtype V deep green

*** I removed the 1st pic as it was not the deep greens but wildtype off the net.





sheyd
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Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2008 11:22 pm

Re: white on white

Post by sheyd »

Here is my Wildtype mature hen- (taken on sunny morning with iPhone4) if it helps.

Really need to get the possible sf Deep Green in the same pic with a Wildtype (with and without flash) for a true comparison- as there are far too many variables I think.

the Blue (in the aviary) in the first pic can be used as a reference for tail colour of Wildtype.

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Kappa
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Joined: Tue May 28, 2013 12:02 am

Re: white on white

Post by Kappa »

Hi Sheyd,
Thanks for the photos. I know until I take a photo with a normal and deep together we can only speculate about the differences. I am still convinced that the deep has less blue in the tail. In the photos that you and Ben have posted of normals, the blue extends right up to the rump where as in the photos of my deep the blue seems to stop half way. I will attempt to have a normal green cock organised for the weekend so that we have some answers.
Cheers,
Kappa.
sheyd
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Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2008 11:22 pm

Re: white on white

Post by sheyd »

Kappa wrote:Hi Sheyd,
Thanks for the photos. I know until I take a photo with a normal and deep together we can only speculate about the differences. I am still convinced that the deep has less blue in the tail. In the photos that you and Ben have posted of normals, the blue extends right up to the rump where as in the photos of my deep the blue seems to stop half way. I will attempt to have a normal green cock organised for the weekend so that we have some answers.
Cheers,
Kappa.
If these were my birds I'd be test breeding them with proven reg Blue breeders -making sure that the cock bird (for the Pallid) is not split to anything.
If they are Deep, then you should expect to get at least 1 or 2 (Deep Blues) over a couple of clutches, provided that one or both of your birds are split to Blue.
Kappa
Posts: 195
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Re: white on white

Post by Kappa »

Shey,

They are actually both split for blue, and I had them paired with normal blues last season. However, I didn't have much luck. The cock was with a 2yr old first time breeding hen who didn't know what to do with the nest box and laid her eggs off the perch. The hen was with a blue cock and they had a normal blue and a normal (possible deep) green.

The aim of putting them together this season was to specifically try and breed a df deep green/blue hen, as I am trying to breed out the pallid.

Hopefully I have more luck this year.
Regards,
Kappa.
sheyd
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Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2008 11:22 pm

Re: white on white

Post by sheyd »

yes, sorry missed that bit. Here's hoping you get 1 or 2 DF or SF Deep Blue's in your clutch to prove the point of them being Deep bred birds- I wouldn't rule out other mutations for them yet though.

Looking forward to more pics of the Green (if you can). Q: In the pics he appears to have a lighter body than his head- can you confirm?
sheyd
Posts: 1293
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2008 11:22 pm

Re: white on white

Post by sheyd »

Ring0Neck wrote:Indigo blue & Blue next to each other

http://parakeet.me/irn/f/indigoNblue1.jpg

Is it possible to have an IndigoBlue without the Green patches? My newest bird looks exactly like your IndigoBlue- I have her in with my Blue cock and the difference is very noticable when together- but not so when she is on her own- (you'd probably think she was Blue). Breeder said she was a TurquoiseBlue (parents were said to be Turqblue x Turqblue- no one is real familiar with the term Indigo yet- so, one or both of them could have been).
thought I should add a pic of her (taken today with iPhone)
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trabots
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Re: white on white

Post by trabots »

IndigoBlues can take until the 2nd big moult at 15mo before they show any patching.
sheyd
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Re: white on white

Post by sheyd »

trabots wrote:IndigoBlues can take until the 2nd big moult at 15mo before they show any patching.
So, IndigoBlue then, not TurquoiseBlue?
Am looking forward to the end of the year :)
Johan S
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Location: Pretoria, South Africa

Re: white on white

Post by Johan S »

trabots wrote:IndigoBlues can take until the 2nd big moult at 15mo before they show any patching.
Willy, have you experienced this often? The indigoblues I've bred have always shown green patches when they emerge from the nest even before their first 3 month moult.
Gratz
Posts: 146
Joined: Wed May 01, 2013 2:58 am

Re: white on white

Post by Gratz »

Sorry to step in here,
Johan, the pics I posted earlier in this thread show the indigo blue chicks in the nest , they look like a pale green like emerald no sign of turquoise whereas a turquoise show up on the tips of the pin feathers in the nest, when they fledge they look like normal blue birds ( see the pics of the birds after the pics of inside the nestbox) the green patches only start to appear after a year or so, then when fully matured the bird seems to appear more emerald like (see the pic with the violet blue cock bird).this pair only produced 1 indigo baby which happened to be violet , in the pics you will see that the Indigo violet blue baby looks like a violet blue , even with a close up you can miss that the bird is Indigo. the next pic shows clearly that the bird is a Indigo violet blue (pic taken after 12 months).
Shey
the only way for you to know if the bird is indigo is by looking at the parents, if they look like the hen in the pic I posted or the cock bird in the very first pic or if you have a pic of the bird in the nest, if you don't have any of these then you just have to wait till the bird is around 15 months old. Just as point of interest one of the 2 hens in the pic was paired up to a cleartail cock bird in 2011, they had 4 chicks 2 turned out to be Indigo blue split cleartails but you couldn't tell them apart when they fledged but you could tell there were 2 in the nest.
hope this helps
Gratz
Ring0Neck
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Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck »

Hi Gratz,

Great set of pics.
you said:
the pics I posted earlier in this thread show the indigo blue chicks in the nest , they look like a pale green like emerald no sign of turquoise whereas a turquoise show up on the tips of the pin feathers in the nest

I also agree with above, turquoise birds by the time they fledge would show visible signs of being turquoise.
Can we confirm the above !? does everyone agree? their turquoise by the time it fledged one can tell if turq. or not?

I ask this because if this is true (consistent) for everyone then it is only Indigo that would show patches later on, and this will be a marker we can use to identify birds being indigo or turquoise. Esp. young birds that come from parents we are not certain if turquoise or indigo.




Gratz
Posts: 146
Joined: Wed May 01, 2013 2:58 am

Re: white on white

Post by Gratz »

Hi Ben

Thanks for adding that , I forgot to mention that I also have bred many turquoise before the Indigo surfaced. Yes you are spot on when you say that you can tell if you have a turquoise as soon as the chicks fledge. From my experience you can tell them apart in the nest but if every chick in the nest is blue or if all the chicks are Indigo , it will be very difficult to know what you will end up with. In saying that I found that it is very rare to have a complete nest of Indigo blue , usually 1 or 2 out of 4 end up being Indigo , now if you have turquoise in the nest you will identify them very easily . Another thing I would like to add here is that you will not breed turquoise from an Indigo (unless you pair it up to a turquoise , which I would not recommend )
I hope everyone else that has bred Indigo blues shares the same view, looking forward to read some comments to Bens question

Gratz
sheyd
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Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2008 11:22 pm

Re: white on white

Post by sheyd »

Gratz wrote: Shey
the only way for you to know if the bird is indigo is by looking at the parents, if they look like the hen in the pic I posted or the cock bird in the very first pic or if you have a pic of the bird in the nest, if you don't have any of these then you just have to wait till the bird is around 15 months old. Just as point of interest one of the 2 hens in the pic was paired up to a cleartail cock bird in 2011, they had 4 chicks 2 turned out to be Indigo blue split cleartails but you couldn't tell them apart when they fledged but you could tell there were 2 in the nest.
hope this helps
Gratz
Hi Glen, I don't have pics of that particular clutch but do have some pics of a clutch from the same hen (and cock) that were pulled a month before - I also have a pic of the hen. These are not my pics to post so I'll pm them to you (and anyone else who maybe interested) to analyze if you want? I'll let you decide if she's a Indigo(df?) or a TurquoiseBlue- as I'm not sure.

Here are some more pics to get a 'feel' for my birds colour- (taken today with iPhone so quality isn't there- Blue cock in the last two can be used as a reference)
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Ring0Neck
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Location: Brisbane QLD AUS

Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck »

Shey

is she's Indigo(df?)
no
it is a blue bird how can it be df (homozygous) parblue??
i see no turquoiseblue either.


Use confirmed pictures of confirmed df indigo, df turq to compare.
sheyd
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Re: white on white

Post by sheyd »

Ben. I didn't post the pic of the dam of my bird on this thread so no, you wouldn't be able to tell if df Indigo or sf TurquoiseBlue :wink:

Yes, I agree she (my bird) does look blue, but not when paired with an actual Blue (please refer to my pics) though like I said the quality isn't good and obviously she looks "greener" or I like to say "tinted green" irl.
Ring0Neck
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Location: Brisbane QLD AUS

Re: white on white

Post by Ring0Neck »

Shey,
S-times i read posts too fast and miss out on info ;) the side effects of multi-tasking :d
I will re-read your post again later when i get some time.


Gratz
Posts: 146
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Re: white on white

Post by Gratz »

Shey

Would it be possible to post a pic of the bird in question towards the front of the cage with the blue cock bird in the background

Thanks
sheyd
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Re: white on white

Post by sheyd »

I will do my best.
trabots
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Re: white on white

Post by trabots »

I said "can" , you are correct most will be identified after the 1st moult. This df Indigo hen was thought to be a very lightly patched IndigoBlue after the 1st moult and now after the 2nd is obviously a df Indigo.


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sheyd
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Re: white on white

Post by sheyd »

sorry I tried but couldn't get him to go to the back- it's not his aviary (anymore), she is an aviary bird he is a h/r pet that lives in another cage, so she actually worries him flying about like a mad woman lol.

I'll just wait until the big molt at the end of this year- I'll know (and you'll know) by then.

One other thing- I was wrong about the hen's (in question) parents both being Turquoiseblue /Indigoblues/ Indigos- Only the dam hen is a Parblue- the sire cock is Blue. Apparently according to the breeder, the hen has only ever had "pastel" chicks all bar two (and mine apparently) is not one of the two.

Anyhow we will see how this pans out.
sheyd
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Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2008 11:22 pm

Re: white on white

Post by sheyd »

here are the best I could do- sorry the quality is worse in these as I used my iPhone which is older than the one I previously used- (I really miss my camera)

Reg Blue is on the outside of same wire as bird in question. they are on the same panel so is accurate of colour (difference).

Anyway, these show a clear difference in hue.

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sheyd
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Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2008 11:22 pm

Re: white on white

Post by sheyd »

Ring0Neck wrote:Shey,
S-times i read posts too fast and miss out on info ;) the side effects of multi-tasking :d
I will re-read your post again later when i get some time.


Yeah, I've been guilty of that at times too- all good 8)
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