hey guys.
i have been doing a bit of research online about parrots being doninant.
the problem i have run into is, there are a few sites that give suggestions of how to bring a dominant parrot down a few notches, but then there are just as many sites that say there is no such behavior as dominance present in parrots at all.
so i put the question to everyone here, do you believe that a IRN can be dominant, top bird of the flock?
the reason i have been searching about this is be cause Fidgit has been doing, what i call his "Macho man" dance all the time the last couple of weeks, and he seems to be doing to more and more often.
so i have been trying to determine, if it is dominance how to deal with it, and if its not, then what is it and how to understand why exactly he is doing it. because he doesnt just do it, he is doing it to things, his toys, my hands, my computer, my feet and so on.
so any experiences would be great to hear about.
P.S. just i i wrote this post Fidgit decided to do his dance so i tried to get a video of it, i dont know how great the quality will be because its from my phone.
but here it is anyway.
http://youtu.be/3POKsi5yIY4
and this was him doing it to his toy, but im not sure you can see it very well.
http://youtu.be/dem35-MVwCg
Cheers
Paul
can IRNs be dominant?
Moderator: Mods
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Fidgit_Green
- Posts: 85
- Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:35 am
- Location: North Brisbane, QLD Australia
Re: can IRNs be dominant?
Hee hee hee - just wait till that dance matures a bit and you get the song as well! Rocky does this, and has been since I got him. I consider it the giant bonus of having a male, find it endearing, and love to watch it. I guess not everyone would, because it does get a little noisy. This dance has to do with being glad to be a boy, if you catch my drift.
If it comes hand in hand with dominant behaviour, then Rocky must have not got that memo. I do not see dominant behaviour in Rocky, and I've had him, doing the dance a lot, just over a year. I do a lot of things that the "dominant behaviour theory" people say not to do. When I have opened the door, he can come in and out of the cage on his own accord, unless I have a schedule to keep, at which point I move him. Most (but not all) of Rocky's areas and perches are over my head, some of them just because I would be sitting down. I do often give him treats just to give treats, not as rewards for anything, and I do use bribery (food lure) to get him to do things. I leave him alone when he's not in the mood (generally if he's sleepy or looking for breakfast). Basically, unless we are working on a behaviour, I treat him like a well-loved and indulged child. In fact, he is more indulged than I would allow a human child to be because, in my experience, human children turn bratty on less indulgence than that!
Still, he is a joy to have around. He doesn't bite unless I have pushed him past his fear level, and then it is usually not really a bite, but a warning. He flies to me when invited, generally goes where I indicate I want him without a bribe, and steps onto my arm if I am gentle. He allows himself to be graciously shooed off the Budgie cage, and is content to play wherever I place him. He is highly interactive, attentive, and interested in me when I approach him. He takes food from strangers, and will allow himself to be transferred (briefly) to the arm of a stranger. He is still afraid of petting, but he allows me to ruffle his feathers with my breath- a preliminary step on the way to petting, and is increasingly more inclined to let me touch his toes. His reaction to something unsettling is always flight over fight, unless he has no choice. I make sure he has the choice.
My *personal opinion* is that people see a lot more "dominance" in animals than is actually there because humans are the species that is always thinking about dominance. If you want to see a lot of dominance play in action, take a look at the humans around you.
-MissK
If it comes hand in hand with dominant behaviour, then Rocky must have not got that memo. I do not see dominant behaviour in Rocky, and I've had him, doing the dance a lot, just over a year. I do a lot of things that the "dominant behaviour theory" people say not to do. When I have opened the door, he can come in and out of the cage on his own accord, unless I have a schedule to keep, at which point I move him. Most (but not all) of Rocky's areas and perches are over my head, some of them just because I would be sitting down. I do often give him treats just to give treats, not as rewards for anything, and I do use bribery (food lure) to get him to do things. I leave him alone when he's not in the mood (generally if he's sleepy or looking for breakfast). Basically, unless we are working on a behaviour, I treat him like a well-loved and indulged child. In fact, he is more indulged than I would allow a human child to be because, in my experience, human children turn bratty on less indulgence than that!
Still, he is a joy to have around. He doesn't bite unless I have pushed him past his fear level, and then it is usually not really a bite, but a warning. He flies to me when invited, generally goes where I indicate I want him without a bribe, and steps onto my arm if I am gentle. He allows himself to be graciously shooed off the Budgie cage, and is content to play wherever I place him. He is highly interactive, attentive, and interested in me when I approach him. He takes food from strangers, and will allow himself to be transferred (briefly) to the arm of a stranger. He is still afraid of petting, but he allows me to ruffle his feathers with my breath- a preliminary step on the way to petting, and is increasingly more inclined to let me touch his toes. His reaction to something unsettling is always flight over fight, unless he has no choice. I make sure he has the choice.
My *personal opinion* is that people see a lot more "dominance" in animals than is actually there because humans are the species that is always thinking about dominance. If you want to see a lot of dominance play in action, take a look at the humans around you.
-MissK
-MissK
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Fidgit_Green
- Posts: 85
- Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:35 am
- Location: North Brisbane, QLD Australia
Re: can IRNs be dominant?
if this is just part of who he is and it is something that he just does, then im more than happy with that.
the reason i was thinking that it was a dominance thing is because of they way he does it an focuses it toward something, it comes across as though it is supposed to be intimidation, also he mostly seems to do it when he doesnt get his way, like if he tries to chew on my feet and i shoo him away (i usually have to shoo him several times as he keeps trying) he comes back to my feet doing his little dance, of if hes trying to climb all over my hand when i dont want him to, he does his dance focused at my hand, or the same goes for trying to chew my computer or phone or something else.
if its not a dominance thing, and you say its more a "proud to be a boy" dance, then i wonder if its just him saying, "im a boy, so you have to let me do what i want to".
but then if that is it, wouldnt that be classed as a form of dominance?
otherwise the other theory i have been thinking of is,
me and him are technically a couple, and his instincts tell him that if he is coupled with another, that other has to be a female, so when he doesnt get his own way, his instincts tell him to tell me that he is the man of the house so i should be letting him do what he wants.
so not really a show of dominance, just him playing the role of the man of the house, or i supposed man of his mate.
well i have no idea if that is it or not, but any comments on my possible theory would be welcomed.
thanks for you post Missk.
Cheers
Paul.
the reason i was thinking that it was a dominance thing is because of they way he does it an focuses it toward something, it comes across as though it is supposed to be intimidation, also he mostly seems to do it when he doesnt get his way, like if he tries to chew on my feet and i shoo him away (i usually have to shoo him several times as he keeps trying) he comes back to my feet doing his little dance, of if hes trying to climb all over my hand when i dont want him to, he does his dance focused at my hand, or the same goes for trying to chew my computer or phone or something else.
if its not a dominance thing, and you say its more a "proud to be a boy" dance, then i wonder if its just him saying, "im a boy, so you have to let me do what i want to".
but then if that is it, wouldnt that be classed as a form of dominance?
otherwise the other theory i have been thinking of is,
me and him are technically a couple, and his instincts tell him that if he is coupled with another, that other has to be a female, so when he doesnt get his own way, his instincts tell him to tell me that he is the man of the house so i should be letting him do what he wants.
so not really a show of dominance, just him playing the role of the man of the house, or i supposed man of his mate.
well i have no idea if that is it or not, but any comments on my possible theory would be welcomed.
thanks for you post Missk.
Cheers
Paul.
Re: can IRNs be dominant?
Hi Paul,
Our birds have been really placed out of Nature, especially those who've been hand reared by people. They may mistakenly focus on inappropriate creatures and objects as recipients of their affections. You may have heard the classic story of someone who had a pet bird who fell in love with its toy, or even its reflection, and guarded and doted on that thing as if it were a living bird. Somebody here on the forum once mentioned their IRN had regurgitated for their *ear*!!! Somebody else has an IRN who feeds their foot. My own Rocky is currently still feeding his toys, his vegetables, and even his floor grate - a drastic situation!
All that, as well as the courtship dance performed for non-bird entities, is normal behaviour that has been displaced due, perhaps, to misidentification with non-birds and, perhaps, due to lack of a proper recipient.
In the Indian Ringneck, it is my understanding, the female is the dominant party in the pair. She decides if she will accept the male and, in some cases, even if she will allow him to live. So, if Fidget is really "saying" anything to you with his dance, it is more likely to be "Look how fine and attractive I am! Here's my number! Call me! Are you dialing yet? My phone's not ringing! Woah, it's OK; the phone's OK- are you dialing NOW? Don't call anybody else! Call ME!" Mating is a very strong drive, so you should expect Fidgit to be focussed and dedicated towards this behaviour.
I would urge you to simply enjoy Fidgit's display. It is unlikely you will be able to dissuade him from dancing and, since he is keeping busy and entertaining himself as well as getting great exercise, why would you? You may even, if you are so inclined, try to join him in the dance. Sometimes Rocky will start doing the wings and the ducking and leaning on a perch, or even the cage bars, when I come to talk to him. I found he will respond if I make goofy head gestures such as turning my head, slowly blinking, ducking back and zooming my head back in, generally imitating him. It gets him more into it. We have a great time. Maybe you're not the kind of guy who can make himself a fool to play with a bird but, then again, maybe you are.
-MissK
Our birds have been really placed out of Nature, especially those who've been hand reared by people. They may mistakenly focus on inappropriate creatures and objects as recipients of their affections. You may have heard the classic story of someone who had a pet bird who fell in love with its toy, or even its reflection, and guarded and doted on that thing as if it were a living bird. Somebody here on the forum once mentioned their IRN had regurgitated for their *ear*!!! Somebody else has an IRN who feeds their foot. My own Rocky is currently still feeding his toys, his vegetables, and even his floor grate - a drastic situation!
All that, as well as the courtship dance performed for non-bird entities, is normal behaviour that has been displaced due, perhaps, to misidentification with non-birds and, perhaps, due to lack of a proper recipient.
In the Indian Ringneck, it is my understanding, the female is the dominant party in the pair. She decides if she will accept the male and, in some cases, even if she will allow him to live. So, if Fidget is really "saying" anything to you with his dance, it is more likely to be "Look how fine and attractive I am! Here's my number! Call me! Are you dialing yet? My phone's not ringing! Woah, it's OK; the phone's OK- are you dialing NOW? Don't call anybody else! Call ME!" Mating is a very strong drive, so you should expect Fidgit to be focussed and dedicated towards this behaviour.
I would urge you to simply enjoy Fidgit's display. It is unlikely you will be able to dissuade him from dancing and, since he is keeping busy and entertaining himself as well as getting great exercise, why would you? You may even, if you are so inclined, try to join him in the dance. Sometimes Rocky will start doing the wings and the ducking and leaning on a perch, or even the cage bars, when I come to talk to him. I found he will respond if I make goofy head gestures such as turning my head, slowly blinking, ducking back and zooming my head back in, generally imitating him. It gets him more into it. We have a great time. Maybe you're not the kind of guy who can make himself a fool to play with a bird but, then again, maybe you are.
-MissK
-MissK
Re: can IRNs be dominant?
Hmmm... I still haven't seen any evidence of dominance in Neles interactions with us or with other birds.
Like Missk, we discard all the height dominance rules and indulge him in many ways.
But we have always expected certain behaviours (like step up) and he has always just done it (though if he knows you are going to do something horrible, like towel dry him, he will step up and then fly away). Luckily he has never flat out refused to step up or argued the point, so it is a non issue.
When we -occasionally- let him sleep in our bedroom he will no longer sleep on the curtain rail, he now tries to join us bed until we provide him a perch that's the same height and next to our bed. If there is anything to height dominance theories I guess this would put Nele on the opposite end of scale from a social climber!
"It is easy for some parrot owners to misinterpret aggression as a parrot’s desire to dominate. Aggression for the
purpose of establishing dominance is common in many mammal species, including humans, however, it does not
occur in parrots. Parrots have no natural inclination to form dominance-based hierarchies with other parrots in
the wild, or with humans in captivity. Parrots may be moved to show aggression for many different reasons when
they are higher than human eye level. However, the desire to dominate should not be considered as one of those
reasons." http://www.naturalencounters.com/images ... Martin.pdf
From my very limited experience and very extensive reading I haven't found any evidence that leads me to believe that dominance and hierarchy has anything to do with aggression.
We have done nothing to establish a pecking order, we allow him to take food from us, land on our heads or shoulders and, to date, we have had no trouble with him. If dominance is a reason one finds bad behaviour and aggression in ones bird, then our bird should be a right little monster.
I think that a lot of what people class as dominant behaviour from a parrot is the human simply not reading the birds body language or understanding what triggers the behaviour.
I really think this sums up whole the issue very well:
"We may never know what mental processes underlie our parrots’ observable behaviors. From the human perspective, any resistance is easily misinterpreted as a struggle for dominance. Depending on our understanding about what motivates birds to behave in particular ways, one naturally chooses some strategies and ignores others. We believe that the quest for dominance is rarely an accurate description of what motivates a companion parrot’s negative behavior. Regardless, the intervention strategies typically associated with this interpretation are themselves so domineering as to be senselessly
damaging to the relationship you wish to have with your bird. Too often, the processes thought to underlie behavior are
solely in the eye of the beholder. When this is the case, we move farther away from facilitating our parrots’ companionability when we should be moving closer to a bird’s eye view."
http://www.behaviorworks.org/files/arti ... 202001.pdf <-- well worth reading the whole article!!!
Also just for some food for thought http://www.brisbanebirdvet.com.au/LinkC ... &mid=13254
http://www.rationalparrot.com/tease.html
also the parrot society in brisbane is holding a seminar next month http://www.parrotsociety.org.au/index.p ... mic&id=108 It looks great.
Claire
Like Missk, we discard all the height dominance rules and indulge him in many ways.
But we have always expected certain behaviours (like step up) and he has always just done it (though if he knows you are going to do something horrible, like towel dry him, he will step up and then fly away). Luckily he has never flat out refused to step up or argued the point, so it is a non issue.
When we -occasionally- let him sleep in our bedroom he will no longer sleep on the curtain rail, he now tries to join us bed until we provide him a perch that's the same height and next to our bed. If there is anything to height dominance theories I guess this would put Nele on the opposite end of scale from a social climber!
"It is easy for some parrot owners to misinterpret aggression as a parrot’s desire to dominate. Aggression for the
purpose of establishing dominance is common in many mammal species, including humans, however, it does not
occur in parrots. Parrots have no natural inclination to form dominance-based hierarchies with other parrots in
the wild, or with humans in captivity. Parrots may be moved to show aggression for many different reasons when
they are higher than human eye level. However, the desire to dominate should not be considered as one of those
reasons." http://www.naturalencounters.com/images ... Martin.pdf
From my very limited experience and very extensive reading I haven't found any evidence that leads me to believe that dominance and hierarchy has anything to do with aggression.
We have done nothing to establish a pecking order, we allow him to take food from us, land on our heads or shoulders and, to date, we have had no trouble with him. If dominance is a reason one finds bad behaviour and aggression in ones bird, then our bird should be a right little monster.
I think that a lot of what people class as dominant behaviour from a parrot is the human simply not reading the birds body language or understanding what triggers the behaviour.
I really think this sums up whole the issue very well:
"We may never know what mental processes underlie our parrots’ observable behaviors. From the human perspective, any resistance is easily misinterpreted as a struggle for dominance. Depending on our understanding about what motivates birds to behave in particular ways, one naturally chooses some strategies and ignores others. We believe that the quest for dominance is rarely an accurate description of what motivates a companion parrot’s negative behavior. Regardless, the intervention strategies typically associated with this interpretation are themselves so domineering as to be senselessly
damaging to the relationship you wish to have with your bird. Too often, the processes thought to underlie behavior are
solely in the eye of the beholder. When this is the case, we move farther away from facilitating our parrots’ companionability when we should be moving closer to a bird’s eye view."
http://www.behaviorworks.org/files/arti ... 202001.pdf <-- well worth reading the whole article!!!
Also just for some food for thought http://www.brisbanebirdvet.com.au/LinkC ... &mid=13254
http://www.rationalparrot.com/tease.html
also the parrot society in brisbane is holding a seminar next month http://www.parrotsociety.org.au/index.p ... mic&id=108 It looks great.
Claire
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Fidgit_Green
- Posts: 85
- Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:35 am
- Location: North Brisbane, QLD Australia
Re: can IRNs be dominant?
the only reason i was wanting to find out if it was dominance was so that i could figure out how avoid any negative behavior from it, but now that i know that it isnt, i am more than happy to sit back and enjoy it.
it never really bothered me apart from the possible negatives of it if it was dominance.
but knowing that it is more of an affection thing actually makes me feel really good.
and yes i am the type of person to act like a goof to interact with Fidgit, and now that i know it is something to encourage i will start doing that.
its good to know that there isnt any dominance with parrots, if there was then i would have had to change around a bunch of things to accommodate it.
now i can just sit back an know that anything he does is just purely part of who he is.
thanks for your help, it has out my mind at ease so i can now i can enjoy our time together even more.
Cheers
Paul
it never really bothered me apart from the possible negatives of it if it was dominance.
but knowing that it is more of an affection thing actually makes me feel really good.
and yes i am the type of person to act like a goof to interact with Fidgit, and now that i know it is something to encourage i will start doing that.
its good to know that there isnt any dominance with parrots, if there was then i would have had to change around a bunch of things to accommodate it.
now i can just sit back an know that anything he does is just purely part of who he is.
thanks for your help, it has out my mind at ease so i can now i can enjoy our time together even more.
Cheers
Paul
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Fidgit_Green
- Posts: 85
- Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:35 am
- Location: North Brisbane, QLD Australia
Re: can IRNs be dominant?
hey guys.
i just wanted to say that after the advice and no longer worrying whether the behavior was negative or dominant, i am now able to appreciate it for what it is and it is really interesting now to sit back and observe him doing his dance and its like you said Missk, its really cute and it is quite fun rewarding to actually interact with him while he is doing it.
i thank you so much for your help, because just in these couple of days being able to change the way i look at the that behavior it has already strengthened our relationship. (probably more for me than for him as i was the one with the problem)
now i cant wait for the point how you said that they add a song to their dance, at the moment its just a few clicks and squeaks, so im im really looking forward to that.
thank you so much.
Cheers
Paul
i just wanted to say that after the advice and no longer worrying whether the behavior was negative or dominant, i am now able to appreciate it for what it is and it is really interesting now to sit back and observe him doing his dance and its like you said Missk, its really cute and it is quite fun rewarding to actually interact with him while he is doing it.
i thank you so much for your help, because just in these couple of days being able to change the way i look at the that behavior it has already strengthened our relationship. (probably more for me than for him as i was the one with the problem)
now i cant wait for the point how you said that they add a song to their dance, at the moment its just a few clicks and squeaks, so im im really looking forward to that.
thank you so much.
Cheers
Paul
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ellieelectrons
- Posts: 2708
- Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 1:17 am
- Location: Sunshine Coast, Queensland, Australia
Re: can IRNs be dominant?
Just thought I'd share this link:
http://salaisuus.kapsi.fi/random/lol/Ma ... havior.pdf
On p.212 they talk about "conditioned aggression". The first paragraph says:
"This type of aggression is often called dominance aggression. Dominance aggression is a controver-sial classification. The term implies a social order maintained by subtle, species-typical cues that serve to minimize aggression. This communica-tion is not possible between birds and people. However, birds can easily be conditioned to be aggressive by a person backing off or in other ways rewarding the aggression. "
Ellie.
http://salaisuus.kapsi.fi/random/lol/Ma ... havior.pdf
On p.212 they talk about "conditioned aggression". The first paragraph says:
"This type of aggression is often called dominance aggression. Dominance aggression is a controver-sial classification. The term implies a social order maintained by subtle, species-typical cues that serve to minimize aggression. This communica-tion is not possible between birds and people. However, birds can easily be conditioned to be aggressive by a person backing off or in other ways rewarding the aggression. "
Ellie.