Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

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Ring0Neck
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck »

What i'm I ?

This young ringneck is out of a Blue X Violet pair
in the nest there was a very dark violet also (see pic with a few chicks in the bucket)
these are birds of a local breeder and was kind enough to let me take pics of these gorgeous birds.

i honestly don't know what to call this bird !

I know at least another breeder has a bird like this in the nest this year, but what is it?

Note the nails, they are very dark black



http://parakeet.me/irn/trico1.jpg
http://parakeet.me/irn/trico.jpg
http://parakeet.me/irn/trico3.jpg
http://parakeet.me/irn/trico4.jpg

These ringnecks are not from the same parents, they are mixed.
http://parakeet.me/irn/trico2a.jpg
Johan S
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Johan S »

Ben, at first glance to me it seems as if the chick a SF violet blue (what I call strain 2). The colour is still very blue, but I have notice from some of the pictures of ours that they tend to become more violet as the feathers grow. Have a look again in two weeks. One photo does suggest some violet feathers developing on the rump.
Ring0Neck
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck »

Ben, at first glance to me it seems as if the chick a SF violet blue (what I call strain 2).
Hi Johan,
How would you pair up this bird in order to keep breeding strain 2, would it work in similar fashon as Dark Factor? T1 & T2?
Paired to a Blue would the violet strain 1 be showing in offspring or just strain 2?
Could it be translated into s-thing along these lines:? Strain 1 violet has both alleles violet but strain 2 is a mixture of say one blue allele and one violet?
not sure if terminology is acurate.

Ben
Johan S
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Johan S »

Ring0Neck wrote:
Ben, at first glance to me it seems as if the chick a SF violet blue (what I call strain 2).
Hi Johan,
How would you pair up this bird in order to keep breeding strain 2, would it work in similar fashon as Dark Factor? T1 & T2?
Paired to a Blue would the violet strain 1 be showing in offspring or just strain 2?
Could it be translated into s-thing along these lines:? Strain 1 violet has both alleles violet but strain 2 is a mixture of say one blue allele and one violet?
not sure if terminology is acurate.

Ben
Hi Ben,

in short, no. It doesn't seem as if I'm communicating my thoughts regarding strain 1 and 2 effectively. It has nothing to do with T1 or T2. It is simply two varieties that can give DF birds with a violet appearance. Think of it as a light violet mutation, and a dark violet mutation. The major difference is in the SF, with the light violet looking very much like a cobalt (the pictures you posted), and a dark violet in SF already looking violet. In the other posts I have shown you examples with pictures. Time for some revision. :)

Therefore, if you pair a blue x violet (1) you get blue and violet (1). If you pair blue x violet (2), you get blue and violet (2) offspring. Violet (1) x violet (1) will give you blue, SF violet (1) and DF violet (1). Violet (2) x violet (2) will give you blue, SF violet (2) and DF violet (2). We are currently testing SF violet (1) x SF violet (2) to see what happens, but from what I've heard the phenotype is remarkable.
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck »

Johan,

You are explaining just fine.
It is clear and strightforward explanation. Cheers!
I'll try to aquire this bird, if the breeder wants to part with it.
Ben

What do you think of these 2 violets from same nest? sf & df? violets?

http://parakeet.me/irn/BRviolets1.jpg
http://parakeet.me/irn/BRviolets2.jpg
http://parakeet.me/irn/BRviolets3.jpg
Ring0Neck
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck »

I have aquired this bird
http://parakeet.me/irn/trico1.jpg

Johan made me curious and i want to experiment with the 2 strains of violets.
Johan S
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Johan S »

Ring0Neck wrote:What do you think of these 2 violets from same nest? sf & df? violets?

http://parakeet.me/irn/BRviolets1.jpg
http://parakeet.me/irn/BRviolets2.jpg
http://parakeet.me/irn/BRviolets3.jpg
Yip, I'd go with violet in SF and DF of the lighter violet variety.

Use http://parakeet.me/irn/BRviolets1.jpg and compare the SF with this SF violet hen. This hopefully shows why I distinguish between the two varieties of violet.
Image
Recio
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Recio »

Johan S wrote: Hi Ben,

in short, no. It doesn't seem as if I'm communicating my thoughts regarding strain 1 and 2 effectively. It has nothing to do with T1 or T2. It is simply two varieties that can give DF birds with a violet appearance. Think of it as a light violet mutation, and a dark violet mutation. The major difference is in the SF, with the light violet looking very much like a cobalt (the pictures you posted), and a dark violet in SF already looking violet. In the other posts I have shown you examples with pictures. Time for some revision. :)

Therefore, if you pair a blue x violet (1) you get blue and violet (1). If you pair blue x violet (2), you get blue and violet (2) offspring. Violet (1) x violet (1) will give you blue, SF violet (1) and DF violet (1). Violet (2) x violet (2) will give you blue, SF violet (2) and DF violet (2). We are currently testing SF violet (1) x SF violet (2) to see what happens, but from what I've heard the phenotype is remarkable.
Hi Johan,

I guess you are giving names to a well known feature with violet strains : there are some birds in which we can make the difference between SF and DF birds because they behave as incomplete dominant (strain 1) and there are others in which both SF and DF birds are identical, behaving as dominants (strain 2). That's great and I agree with you : we should name them to know what we are speaking about. We were supossing that both strains were different alleles of the same gene but, after reading your post, I have a problem with this idea : ... you have heard , that "the phenotype (of the combo) is remarkable" .... In this case I would think that both mutations are not the same. This is the only way to explain that the combo strain1strain2 is different than any of the homozygous DF for any of the strains: if the phenotype of the DF strain1 is like the phenotype of DF strain 2 ... why the combo of both strains would be different ??? This fact and the different inheritance pattern point to two different mutations.... which will be confirmed or not with your next generation birds.

I am really expecting your results.

This reminds me the history of the european cobalt and the australian cobalt ... which finally were shown to be different mutations (Dark and Deep) even if we do not yet know if they are alleles of the same locus or not.

Regards

Recio
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck »

Intresting that Aus. breeders say same thing as Johan "the phenotype (of the combo) is remarkable"
the difference is the birds they are refering to : Deep B X Violet.

I think we have to be very open minded with this subject.
Since the Deep Blue introduction and more so, adding it to violet, having violet deep blues breeders are having trouble identifying birds and perhaps labelling the offspring wrong or incomplete.
Deep, Cobalt, Violet are Incomlete Dominant, breeding results are the same which is not helping.
Add DF violets or Deep blues and things will only be more hectic.
No longer will we be able to easily identify visually not even genetically.

It is likely that we have what Johan calls violets of at least 2 strains. however..
If one breeder decides that a bird is deep blue instead of violet strain or vice versa, no one can say otherwise because unlike the European cobalts where DF is a clear Mauve and therefore all doubts removed, both these birds phenotype behave exactly the same in SF & DF.

* Why do we have some DF violets that can be identified visually but others will be exactly the same phenotype as SF?
Silly Question to open more possibilites: what if all violets genepool that visually can be identified as darker "activates" a dark allele? somehow?or something else?

Why i think is important to set in stone the following combination: deeb blue x cobalt = ?mauve
is simply to identify weather they are different alleles of the same gene & if they are, giving us a phenotype mauve then we can test breed any bird and label it correctly and confirm that deep blue is a dark factor and not related to violet.


I am sure that many breeders here have Deep Blues, more so Violet Deep Blues and they are not aware of it, they simply call it a darker shade violet. Pairing a DB or Cobolt X Violet the offpsring violet looking although it is in fact violet cobolt it can be passed on as simply a violet. No wonder the next breeder is scratching his head why he has 3-4 different blue based birds in the nest.

The really black nails from Johan's pics and my bird i acquired, the black nails are a marker. What is it telling us?

I ask. If i have a deep blue and i label it a violet strain, or vice versa, can anyone prove me wrong?

Example of easily mis-identifying birds:
Bird in example: http://parakeet.me/irn/trico1.jpg ( we talked about it in this thread just above)
let's call this bird Trico
Trico's parents were Blue cock X Cobalt Violet hen which at the begining breeder thought it was just a violet hen
I have been told and have seen the parents of the mother hen were Violet Cobolt X Violet
Initial conclusion before the above were identified was that this young bird is ought to be a Violet strain 2 which i was happy to accept until more info came to light that in fact there is Cobolt in the genetic makeup of the hen, hence this bird is carrying/being a cobalt at least.

I am not trying to stir anything up, but rather.. question everything even if it is certain., as certainty is only certain till proven otherwise.


Johan S
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Johan S »

Hi Recio, Ben and others,

I'll respond to the SF/DF violet strains when I have the pictures to back them up. At this stage, however, we have not personally bred SF/DF birds in the same clutch in previous seasons from the dark violet strain, but hopefully that isn't the case this year. Unfortunately, the current pictures are of chicks that have shortish feathers and I'd like them to grow out some more. I (personally) haven't confirmed whether the inheritance for the dark strain is complete or incomplete dominant, but I'm getting a bit tired of having to rely on the varied/different reports of others. From pictures I have seen, it appears as if both the light and dark strains are actually incomplete, although much more apparent for the light violet strain. Because of the inconsistencies in the reports, we have decided to produce DF birds of all our mutations. So I will hopefully be able to report back soon on what we have bred and experienced. If it backs up what others have been saying, good! If not, then so be it.
Ring0Neck wrote:If one breeder decides that a bird is deep blue instead of violet strain or vice versa, no one can say otherwise because unlike the European cobalts where DF is a clear Mauve and therefore all doubts removed, both these birds phenotype behave exactly the same in SF & DF.
Willy has made the point that the DF deep is a dark blue bird. Both strains of violet show a DF violet in a violet/purple colour. One can distinguish between them as they are distinctly different (deep dark blue vs purple). Recio, can you confirm whether this is actually true or not, as you have direct contact with Willy Stobbart and he has not been reporting publicly in a long time. Wouldn't it be wonderful if he would join this forum and share his knowledge with us first hand? Maybe you can persuade him. The atmosphere here isn't as aggressive as in some others places. Perhaps you can get permission to upload a DF deep to show the colour.
Recio
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Recio »

Hi Johan, Ben and everybody,

I agree with you that the atmosphere in this forum is quite calm and allows for discussion putting "self proudness" away. I have already redirected Willy to some discussions in this forum but it only depends on him to participate or not.

Coming back to the present discussion:
The question: how could we explain that a combo of strain1strain2 violet mutation could be "different" than a DF strain1 or a DF strain2? It would be great to define what we are meaning by "different". Anyway there would be at least 2 possibilities:

1. Violet strain1 and violet strain 2 could act differently at the structural level (different mutations) so that a SF combo of both mutations could be "different". If both strains were slightly different alleles of the same mutation the combo strain1strain2 would dysplay an intermedial phenotype ... but it seems that this is not the case. Anyway I agree with Johan : it is hard to speak about birds that we do not bread and that we only know indirectly through others' reports.

2. As Ben reports it could also happen that there is only one violet mutation and that what we call strain2 (the darkest violet) is in fact Deep SF Violet bird. In this case when pairing this bird (Blue SF Deep SF Violet) to a normal blue we could get in the same nest Blue, Deep Blue, Violet Blue and Deep Violet Blue. If we are able to identify these phenotypes in the same nest of a strain2 violet .... I would bet that Ben explanation is the best. But if we only can detect Blues and strain2Violets ... it would mean that Deep is not in the mix and we should consider the existence of 2 different Violet mutations.

@Johan : could you tell us your present pairs with both Violet types to try to better understand outcomes?

Regards

Recio
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Johan S »

Recio wrote:could you tell us your present pairs with both Violet types to try to better understand outcomes?
Here are the pairs and what we are trying to determine from the experiments related to the structural mutations for this season. Just to recap on terminology, violet1 will be the darker strain, and violet2 the lighter strain. Then we have pairs in:

violet1 x violet2 (initially started to test if the hen is actually a violet or cobalt, but we have tracked down the origins and confirmed violet2. Now we'll investigate the combination)
violet1 x violet1 (breed reference SF and DF violet1)
violet1 x violet1 cobalt (compare cobalt violet1 to DF violet1 from same nest or different nest above)
cobalt x cobalt ?violet2? (not sure what the hen is, but have confirmed non-allelic relationship to dark by two different mauve-like phenotypes, i.e. mauve and mauve ?violet2?)

Unfortunately, no DF violet2 candidates possible this season. :(
Recio
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Recio »

Johan S wrote: Here are the pairs and what we are trying to determine from the experiments related to the structural mutations for this season. Just to recap on terminology, violet1 will be the darker strain, and violet2 the lighter strain. Then we have pairs in:

violet1 x violet2 (initially started to test if the hen is actually a violet or cobalt, but we have tracked down the origins and confirmed violet2. Now we'll investigate the combination) :(
OK Johan,

So the question after correcting for terminology is : is violet1 a single different mutation than violet2, or is violet1 (the darkest) a mix of Violet and Deep?

In the pairing above I guess that the male is violet1 and the female is violet2. In this is the case the question of the origins is more important for the male (violet1, the darkest) than for the female. Could you track down its origins as you did for the female?

Regards

Recio
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck »

Hi All,

We should team! up a few breeders and do co-joint tests. It can save us years....
Depending on what birds we have or can acquire for the tests.

Anyone can join, since we all decide what birds/outcomes should be for these experimental pairs

The bird i acquired i am pretty sure it's cobalt not Strain 2 as i was hoping but i'll keep looking.
what i suggest Johan or anyone that has or can get an SF ( or DF to be sure)of stain 2 bird to put it to a green wildtype
We know it's quiet easy to identify a green violet to a dark green bird
doing this will prove (best evidence) if indeed strain 2 is of violet not dark

BTW, i have never seen / heard of deep green bird.
i am more then happy to strip a deep blue to green to see the phenotype so we can compare to the green out of the strain 2 Joahn has.


What are your thoughts?
Ben


Let's inject a purpose to our passion
Johan S
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Johan S »

Recio wrote:
Johan S wrote: Here are the pairs and what we are trying to determine from the experiments related to the structural mutations for this season. Just to recap on terminology, violet1 will be the darker strain, and violet2 the lighter strain. Then we have pairs in:

violet1 x violet2 (initially started to test if the hen is actually a violet or cobalt, but we have tracked down the origins and confirmed violet2. Now we'll investigate the combination) :(
OK Johan,

So the question after correcting for terminology is : is violet1 a single different mutation than violet2, or is violet1 (the darkest) a mix of Violet and Deep?

In the pairing above I guess that the male is violet1 and the female is violet2. In this is the case the question of the origins is more important for the male (violet1, the darkest) than for the female. Could you track down its origins as you did for the female?

Regards

Recio
I haven't checked, but will follow up with the breeder. He is a mutual friend (DS), so it shouldn't be hard. Pretty sure it is violet1, though.
Ring0Neck
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck »



In this thread it is referred to what is most likely the Violet 2
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Gene ... sage/13673
I know the breeder (Peter Russell) and i can ask if he still has any violets of strain 2 (light)
He was one of the first 5 breeders with Violets in Australia, so i can be sure that the violet2 bloodline was not mixed with Dark.
I would still like to test breed this bird to a green bird.
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck »

Hi Molossus,

I'm up for it.

Your Azure, how does it show under UV light?

Ben
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Johan S »

Hi Molossus,

I'd say it would be invaluable to see a picture of the blue 'azure' in the same aviary with a reference normal blue and hopefully some other structural mutations (dark would be a fabulous start). In terms of breeding programs, I'd go with trying to establish DF 'azure' in blue and green as a first step.

I know for a fact that you own a UV light, so I share Ben's curiosity on the result.
Recio
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Recio »

Johan S wrote:Hi Molossus,

I'd say it would be invaluable to see a picture of the blue 'azure' in the same aviary with a reference normal blue and hopefully some other structural mutations (dark would be a fabulous start). In terms of breeding programs, I'd go with trying to establish DF 'azure' in blue and green as a first step.

I know for a fact that you own a UV light, so I share Ben's curiosity on the result.
.... and please : it would be great if you could add your uv observations on your Alex.

Regards

Recio
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by prodigy »

SA "Deep Blue" vs Oz Deep Blue (Oz birds on top)

Image

Regards,

Peter
Ring0Neck
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck »

Picture from Willy S.
left to right: Deep Blue (Oz Cobalt) - Blue (lower) Dark Blue (Cobalt EU)

Trusted source, you can use it for reference when compairing


Image


Deep & Dark Blues
Image

Deep Turquoise Blue
Image

DF Deep Blue
Image
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Johan S »

Recio / Ben, do you know if Willy has reported on the low level of psittacin present in the deep blue chicks? Esp. in terms of a UV investigation? It reminds me a lot of emerald/aqua, and it would be interesting to see what colour (if any) the fluorescence study produces.

PS: Great pics, thanks everyone!

And for reference, a typical Dblue (cobalt) from SA
Image
Ring0Neck
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck »

I'll ask him
Recio
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Recio »

Hi Ben, Johan and everybody,

Willy reported on the psittacin present in Deep birds, but he did not go further : not uv studies, not description of the evolution of psittacin with age, not description of dependence/independence of sexual status, not study of the % of Deeps showing this psittacin and not production of a single Deep-Ino. As you can see ... a lot of work to do ... if you have Deep birds .... easy if you live in Oz.

.... some thoughts about this psittacin present in Deep : it is a very low amount of psittacin with a distribution similar to what can be expected in Saphire ... but in Saphire this psittacin appears several months after feathering, and in Deep it is present at feathering and, apparently, decreases/disappear with aging (opposite to Saphire or to other patched mutation in which psittacin increases with aging). So, this psittacin behaves/is regulated differently than the even psittacin we can see in Emeralds or than the patched psittacin present in patched mutations (Saphire-Indigo-Turquoise morphotypes). Could this be a new type of psittacin? ... and could Deep be the first mutation acting at the same time on feather structure and on psittacin production? I agrre with those thinking that the production of a Deep-Ino or a Deep in green series is a priority to understand how this mutation behaves.

... and one observation : it seems that the nails of european cobalts (Dark Blue) are darker than the nails of Oz cobalts (Deep Blue), at least on the pics you have just posted. Could you confirm if it is a general rule? Usually nails colour depends on melanin so it is quite inexpected that structural mutations could alter nails colour. Madas ... what's your feeling?

Regards

Recio
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck »

Hi Guys,
I agrre with those thinking that the production of a Deep-Ino or a Deep in green series is a priority to understand how this mutation behaves.

I am willing to go there.
I have arranged with Willy to get the male Turq. Deep/ino (nsl? SL?) in the pic i posted above, as well as an Albino Hen offspring.
See here how i want at this stage to pair them up, you'll realize that there's more then one reason for these pairings, however open to suggestions.
http://parakeet.me/irn/ino/nsl-sl-ino.htm

Ben
Recio
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Recio »

Hi Ben,

In your calculations you are assuming that Deep is an allele of Dark, and that, thus, it is linked to Blue/Parblue mutations ... this is still something to be proven. But I guess that you have done this because Dark and Deep are dominant mutations and that Deep is not yet implemented in the genetic calculator. Just to keep in mind that the % offspring expected could not be exactly what appears in your results.

Regards

Recio
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck »

Willy said this in his last e-mail and perhaps some SA breeders can use this info or shade some light,.
I also invited Willy on the forum and i hope would join us but i think from previous forums he did not enjoy the athmosphere (not this forum)

I thought Azure was Deep and the Deeps in SA were the same as the Oz Deeps. I wonder who named the SA birds as it was me who named the Oz Cobalts, Deep Blue. According to Deon Smith there is a line of very dark Violets in SA and could be the bird with the dark nails. I would breed that bird to Blue to isolate and fix that trait. Mixing it with other Violets is just going to confuse, the darkness may be independent of the Violet mutation and you might get very dark Blue birds with black nails.


Regarding pictures, it would be great (not really possible) that we all breeders comparing pics to have same Camera using same settings, or at least to note the settings used.
I have brought home the "Cobalt" and here are pics i took with n without flash and different settings, check out the difference.


1 week ago: http://parakeet.me/irn/trico1.jpg
today with flash: http://parakeet.me/irn/trico19octa.jpg
http://parakeet.me/irn/trico19octb.jpg
today no flash: http://parakeet.me/irn/trico19octnoflasha.jpg

Comparing birds phenotype is going to be hard so the more we know about the way the pic was taken the better.

Recio, Good point regarding my previous post.

Ben
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by prodigy »

OK Guys,

We put the SA "deep blue" to a DK Green/Blue and this is what we got this year:

Please keep in mind both these birds are green and out the same nest.

Image


Image

The bird at the bottom of the dish is the bird above
Image

Thoughts ?

Regards,

Peter
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck »

Peter,
First thing i see is light nails and black nails?

How does the young green birds compare to parent Dark Green?

Hard to say, can you tell us your thoughts?

Image
prodigy
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by prodigy »

Hi Ben,

They are Clear Headed Fallows and the Olive one is split Clear Headed Fallow, hence the one bird with dark nails.

This picture was taken at noon with a flash

Image

The birds are completely different green to the parents and are way different to all our other DF's

Regards,

Peter
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck »

Peter .... Now it's official: I'm Jealous :D !!!!!
prodigy
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by prodigy »

Ok Jealous Ben ;-)

What you make of the color ?

regards

Peter
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck »

Hi Guys.
Willy said that he's gonna have a look at the birds in UV this weekend!

Peter, i will post these pics of Deep Green for comparison
These pics are from Willy.
Info: Ron is the breeder with the website of Deep Blue pics, Martin is a breeder in Victoria

He Said:
Deep x Dark does not produce Mauve. Ron M. has bred a couple and they are a blue bird. He will pair one to a Blue next year to determine if Deep and Dark are alleles. I have already proven Deep and Violets are not alleles. I hope my last clutches this year will produce a DF Deep Violet Blue and a DF Violet Cobalt. The holy grail is the DF Deep DF Violet Cobalt and that is without this dark nailed business ....


Image
Image


Added another pic below:
Deep Violet EmeraldBlue
Image
Last edited by Ring0Neck on Fri Oct 19, 2012 7:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ring0Neck
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Location: Brisbane QLD AUS

Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck »


The young bird i suspected of being something else i call it Trico. ( i bought this bird for being different to normal cobalts)
Willy reckons it is a Deep Blue and i agree.
That bird is a Deep Blue and Martin was the first I know to breed a DF Deep Blue


This young bird comes from Martin as a VioletDeep Hen thought by breeder as being a Violet Cobalt

Picture of the bird 1 week ago:
http://parakeet.me/irn/trico.jpg

Pic taken yesterday, with flash
http://parakeet.me/irn/trico19oct.jpg
No flash
http://parakeet.me/irn/trico19octnoflasha.jpg
same bird same camera diff settings and with n without flash what a huge difference


I need to get a UV lamp
Ben
prodigy
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by prodigy »

Thanks Ben !

The Green series pics are great and a huge help as a comparison, i am going to my breeding partners this weekend to see chicks and will report back.

Please can you give me the colors in order of the first two pictures?

Thanks,

Peter
Ring0Neck
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck »

Peter,

Can you also do a UV test on the deep?.
then we can compare results
Waiting to see what Willy comes up with.

Ben
prodigy
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by prodigy »

Hi Ben,

Just a plain Deep ?

Take a look at this, the Cock is one of the "odd birds" and the hen is a normal DK Green/blue

Cock
Image

Baby 1 (Very florescent under the UV)
Image

Baby 2
Image

Image

Baby 2 UV
Image

What you make of that ???????

Peter
Ring0Neck
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck »

Peter,

I don't have a UV lamp gotta get one
but have a look at this pic my son took with dslr certain settings ..
If you look at the deep blue chick you'll notice high FP at the rump/tail
I think your deep green is showing that same thing

I will get a UV lamp and soon to confirm

http://parakeet.me/irn/w/taildb.jpg


Image


willowisp71
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by willowisp71 »

Ring0Neck wrote:
The young bird i suspected of being something else i call it Trico. ( i bought this bird for being different to normal cobalts)
Willy reckons it is a Deep Blue and i agree.
That bird is a Deep Blue and Martin was the first I know to breed a DF Deep Blue


This young bird comes from Martin as a VioletDeep Hen thought by breeder as being a Violet Cobalt

Picture of the bird 1 week ago:
http://parakeet.me/irn/trico.jpg

Pic taken yesterday, with flash
http://parakeet.me/irn/trico19oct.jpg
No flash
http://parakeet.me/irn/trico19octnoflasha.jpg
same bird same camera diff settings and with n without flash what a huge difference


I need to get a UV lamp
Ben

Ben, It's amazing isn't it, how different camera settings and flash or no flash affect the colour of the bird! The colours in the second pic (with flash) are almost surreal!! Of the 2 pics (with and without), which photo best represents the colour as you see it in normal daylight conditions? Or is it a colour somewhere in between the two :?:
Regards Deb
Johan S
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Location: Pretoria, South Africa

Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Johan S »

Hi Peter,

have you looked at a normal green chick under UV as well to compare? One needs to compare apples with apples, so a green chick of that same age would do very nicely.

I went to visit the same breeder that Peter visited, because he confirmed that he had bred a cobalt and cobalt violet specifically with the lighter variety violet. Here is another pick of the one bird, and then a mixed bag.
Image
Image

The two birds at the top (right) of the last picture are very similar in phenotype, with the cobalt violet only very slightly darker than the cobalt. Clearly, the phenotype is very different from the cobalt violets that are bred from the darker strain of violet.
Ring0Neck
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Ring0Neck »

Johan,

In the first picture limited to what can be seen, i say that the bird has only violet strain through it, no dark factor present.
Is that violet an SF or DF of the lighter strain?
prodigy
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by prodigy »

Hi Johan,

The short answer is yes I have compared to normal green birds under the UV and they look nothing like these.

Peter
Recio
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Recio »

Ring0Neck wrote:Willy said this in his last e-mail and perhaps some SA breeders can use this info or shade some light,.
I also invited Willy on the forum and i hope would join us but i think from previous forums he did not enjoy the athmosphere (not this forum)

I thought Azure was Deep and the Deeps in SA were the same as the Oz Deeps. I wonder who named the SA birds as it was me who named the Oz Cobalts, Deep Blue. According to Deon Smith there is a line of very dark Violets in SA and could be the bird with the dark nails. I would breed that bird to Blue to isolate and fix that trait. Mixing it with other Violets is just going to confuse, the darkness may be independent of the Violet mutation and you might get very dark Blue birds with black nails.


Regarding pictures, it would be great (not really possible) that we all breeders comparing pics to have same Camera using same settings, or at least to note the settings used.
I have brought home the "Cobalt" and here are pics i took with n without flash and different settings, check out the difference.


1 week ago: http://parakeet.me/irn/trico1.jpg
today with flash: http://parakeet.me/irn/trico19octa.jpg
http://parakeet.me/irn/trico19octb.jpg
today no flash: http://parakeet.me/irn/trico19octnoflasha.jpg

Comparing birds phenotype is going to be hard so the more we know about the way the pic was taken the better.

Recio, Good point regarding my previous post.

Ben
Hi Ben,

What Willy is pointing here regarding the nails colour is very important : this "darkening factor" could be the first melanistic mutation ever described in IRN. His test to get a Blue with the "darkening factor" will tell us if this is the case and also how this factor inherits.
Does anybody know where to find a review about nails colouring in birds?

Regards

Recio
Recio
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Recio »

prodigy wrote:Hi Ben,

Just a plain Deep ?

Take a look at this, the Cock is one of the "odd birds" and the hen is a normal DK Green/blue

Cock
Image

Baby 1 (Very florescent under the UV)
Image

Baby 2
Image

Image

Baby 2 UV
Image

What you make of that ???????

Peter
Hi Peter,

You say that the first chick (green one) is very fluorescent but you only showed an uv pic of the second one.... is the fluorescence of the first chick the same type than the second one or their fluorescence is different, as between Emerald and normals?
... and could you remind me the genetic make up of the parents? I was out for some days ... and I need to update myself.

Regards

Recio
Johan S
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Johan S »

prodigy wrote:Hi Johan,
The short answer is yes I have compared to normal green birds under the UV and they look nothing like these.
Peter
Please elaborate. What are the differences? :)

Also, do you have a picture of the normal green at that age under UV? I would be very interested to see.
ZaneFindlay
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by ZaneFindlay »

Hi all,

A proper box is being built to photograph birds under normal light, Florescent light(white) & Ultra violet light.
I am sure that we will see some very interesting results from this exercise from babies through to the adult birds.

We have had a number of interesting babies relating to your discussion re the deep blues, cobalt's violets etc. there is an amazing difference in the various mutations that we have bred the gene's into I.E (Clear head fallow, Clear Head clear tail, Bronze fallow, Pied, Cinnamon, Pallid & Dilute with great result.

P.S - Is there anybody out there with mutation in either of the African Ringneck species (Krameri krameri or Krameri Pavirostris)

Not allowing me to add pic's at this point in time (Sorry)
regards
Zane
Johan S
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by Johan S »

Welcome Zane! Hope you enjoy the forum, and esp. participating in discussions. Your knowledge on structural mutations will greatly benefit everyone here. :D

The idea of a box for photographing birds is excellent. It will allow for repeatable conditions for the photographs (Ben has also mentioned the importance), making it essential to our study of UV. The only problem I can think of will be getting shots of "open wings" where some human intervention is necessary.
prodigy
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by prodigy »

Yes Welcome Zane, its about time !

Johan the differences is huge, in very non scientific terms these birds GLOW and a bog standard green bird shows nothing at all.

You want to see the pictures, the tequila and beer is on you this time my friend ;-)

Regards,

Peter
ZaneFindlay
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by ZaneFindlay »

Hi Johan,

Yes, that is going to be a challenge in its own. we will do the pic's of the birds (Adults) on a perch from hopefully 4 angles and the wing we will have to see what we can do! I have considered putting UV into a entire room! but pic's in flight are also a challenge.

We will have to experiment the different options! but like breeding birds it all can take time.

below in my email, we could share a few pic's and ideas. I am not able to upload pic's for some reason.

Regards
Zane
ZaneFindlay
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Re: Indigo? Turquoise? Violet Pallid with pics

Post by ZaneFindlay »

Hey Peter,

I hope that you have not shared all the pic's yet! lol we need some secrets!

And thanks for the welcome, have you told Johan or the others of the BEAUTIES you seen this weekend at my place?

Regards
Zane
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