Deep green revisited.

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Kappa
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by Kappa »

Hi Mike et al,

Here are some photos of deeps I'm posting on Martin's behalf.

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parents of the df deep cocks that have the colour variation.
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cheers,
Kappa
Mikesringnecks
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Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2013 11:45 pm

Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by Mikesringnecks »

Hi Martin
Thank you so much for the response, pity it wasn't the "dusty" issue but very interesting nonetheless. Like you, I haven't retained a Dark TurquoiseBlue but I did breed some and I have attached a couple of photos. However, this site doesn't like posting my photos, so they may not be attached. I think the problem relates to my resolution being too high but I don't really know why.
My focus is almost exclusively on cleartails but I do have a couple of pairs this season that are capable of producing Dark TurquoiseBlue Cleartails so, if it happens, I will keep one to compare with the Deep equivalent and with the Violet TurquoiseBlue Cleartails that I have been trying to get good tails into.
Thanks again and also for the photos that Kappa posted successfully.
Kind regards
Mike
Skyes_crew
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by Skyes_crew »

Lushen1600 wrote:Hi Kappa, thanks for the reply, I have a green hen, that I'm still trying to figure out what she is cos she doesn't look like a normal green, here is a pic of her right wing under UV light, tell me what you think

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Thanks
Lushen

Lushen,

Just catching up on some threads and came across this one. I too have a green, a hen, that I can't figure out just yet. Here is her UV pic. She is 2 years old.

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I am owned by my birds...and I wouldn't have it any other way :D

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ErnieisAwesome
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by ErnieisAwesome »

My green baby . Not sure what type of green if any , just plain ole green ! I think he's gorgeous <3
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Mikesringnecks
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by Mikesringnecks »

Hi ErnieisAwsome
It guess it could be camera, computer or lighting but that lovely green chick looks too dark to me to be a simple green bird. What were the parents?Kind regards
Mike
ErnieisAwesome
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Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2014 6:16 pm

Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by ErnieisAwesome »

Mikesringnecks wrote:Hi ErnieisAwsome
It guess it could be camera, computer or lighting but that lovely green chick looks too dark to me to be a simple green bird. What were the parents?Kind regards
Mike
Nope , he's really that dark . I have zero information on the parents unfortunately . This bird was pretty much dumped on someone else when I rescued him. He's shades of green go from that dark dark green to a bright almost lime green near the head. So your guess is I'm sure much better than mine. I would like to figure out what type of bird he is is and more about his flock etc. So any and all help would be great ! Ill take a a new photo of him tonight for you so you can see his wings as of today . I just knew he was special !! =) You just made my day !
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ErnieisAwesome
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by ErnieisAwesome »

molossus wrote:looking at the overall shades from head to tail...I'd say you have a normal green irn, Ernie...special all the same.
Thank you ! He's pretty special to me ! It's funny I hardly ever see the just regular greens ones anymore !
Mikesringnecks
Posts: 218
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2013 11:45 pm

Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by Mikesringnecks »

Hi ErnieisAwsome
Molossus knows what he is talking about and is therefore probably correct looking at the photo above . I only have one green, a rising one year old split opaline but the single opaline gene should not affect the colour. I have tried to attach library photos of him but if it doesn't work you will have to E-mail me direct and I will send them direct to you.
Kind regards
Mike
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Johan S
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by Johan S »

Mikesringnecks wrote:Hi ErnieisAwsome
Molossus knows what he is talking about and is therefore probably correct looking at the photo above . I only have one green, a rising one year old split opaline but the single opaline gene should not affect the colour. I have tried to attach library photos of him but if it doesn't work you will have to E-mail me direct and I will send them direct to you.
Kind regards
Mike
Hi Mike, I have found the underlined above not to be 100% true for split males out of very well marked opaline lines, and I'm fairly sure your bird will qualify too.
Mikesringnecks
Posts: 218
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by Mikesringnecks »

Hi Johan
Is that what the very dark beak is about? I did ask the breeder (Paul COURT) about that and a couple of dark feathers on each shoulder but he couldn't shed any light on it other than to tell me that both parents came from JS.
Kind regards
Mike
Indian Ringneck Vic
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by Indian Ringneck Vic »

Mike what are you saying? is this a normal green or not if it is not what are you saying it is?
Johan S
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by Johan S »

Mikesringnecks wrote:Hi Johan
Is that what the very dark beak is about? I did ask the breeder (Paul COURT) about that and a couple of dark feathers on each shoulder but he couldn't shed any light on it other than to tell me that both parents came from JS.
Kind regards
Mike
Hi Mike, no not the dark beak. The heterozygous opaline male often shows the typical opaline features, but not as well as the homozygous bird. So, one can often see a slightly dilution in the region on the back of the bird below where the neck ring will form (which begins to create the typical opaline head/body contrast) , and a slightly diluted tail too.
bennjamin
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by bennjamin »

Would you Johan,....or anyone have an example pic of a visual split (heterozygous) cock opaline in any colour that shows where the single gene is expressing visual characteristics.
Johan S
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by Johan S »

Benjamin, not the easiest challenge you could set. It is not simple to capture with a camera. These are the two best examples I have. Tell me what you see, and I'll tell you what I see.

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Skyes_crew
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Location: Hawaii

Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by Skyes_crew »

Can I join in this one. I want to test myself.

In pic 1 I see a slight lightening if the tail and flights and a slight darkening of the head. Light feet?

Pic 2 is a bit more challenging, and the only thing I can pick out is the scalloping effect across the back.
I am owned by my birds...and I wouldn't have it any other way :D

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Coastal-Birds
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by Coastal-Birds »

Hello Strangers and Ring0neck :)
The topic on Deeps interests me and i have 1 question on my mind and that being,
What happens when deep and European cobalts are mixed together? The young would have to be both phenotypes?
If this is true this may be the cause of the different shades they are being produced in.
Ring0Neck
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by Ring0Neck »

Hi Todd WB , Long time...

I stand to be corrected but i've been told Martin did not pair Dark to Deep, therefore it should carry no Dark in its gen makeup.
I'm an Explorer
10% luck, 20% skill, 15% concentrated power of will, 50% pleasure, 5% pain$ and a 100% reason ..I just gotta know
Coastal-Birds
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by Coastal-Birds »

Hi Ben ,yes long long time since i have been here.
My question as to if european cobalt and deeps are combined together is then does the offspring then carry both mutations.
I think this is possible as i have seen some interesting photos from so called deeps and the young are all not that grey bird covered in the blue sheen as the DF deep looks. Some are alot greyer but also have the blue sheen but not as strong on them but alot darker than a european mauve bird.Im interested in whether anyone else has bred birds like this and if from 2 so called deeps with background knowledge they are the real deeps and not a mix of euro cobalt and oz cobalts.
Indian Ringneck Vic
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by Indian Ringneck Vic »

Coastal I don't have any Aussie Cobalts I do however have a family of European Cobalts from Bob Willis which I have been line breeding with Indigo for 8 years and have found these birds to produce the unexpected last year in a clutch of 3 there were 2 grey mauves and one very dark grey mauve that the digital camera see's a blue mauve that I would describe along the line of the bird in Bastiaan 's 2nd book page 69 only my bird is a lot darker a friend of mine from NSW produced a mauve from a brother to my line cock back to a Willis Cobalt and produced similar to Bastiaan's illustrated mauve on page 69 I have also aquired a European Mauve from a different line to Willis which is a grey bird I beleive these different families to be carrying modifier genes that may prove Terry Martins speculation all those years ago that homozygous Cobalt to be Grey to be incomplete as I beleive this Dark mutation is still evolving as to the question of Deep I'm not convinced it exists and are yet to reconize any difference between any Deep and Dark as the Aussie Cobalt does not produce these dark phenotypes when kept as an isolated mutation then once dark is introduced to the program you can only guess as to what is influenceing the outcomes
Johan S
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by Johan S »

Skyes_crew wrote:Can I join in this one. I want to test myself.

In pic 1 I see a slight lightening if the tail and flights and a slight darkening of the head. Light feet?

Pic 2 is a bit more challenging, and the only thing I can pick out is the scalloping effect across the back.
Pic 2 is more difficult. I have the advantage of having seen this bird next to a normal cobalt turqblue. The cobalt shade is a touch lighter on the back and coverts, but only a touch. Have a close look at the region where the chest meets the neck ring region.
Ring0Neck
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by Ring0Neck »

Johan S wrote:... Tell me what you see, and I'll tell you what I see.

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Any chance it could be Homoz. Opaline Misty/Slaty or khaki? :?:
Looks like a visual opaline but all markers reduced to only 30% or less visual manifestation
I'm an Explorer
10% luck, 20% skill, 15% concentrated power of will, 50% pleasure, 5% pain$ and a 100% reason ..I just gotta know
Skyes_crew
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by Skyes_crew »

Johan S wrote:
Skyes_crew wrote:Can I join in this one. I want to test myself.

In pic 1 I see a slight lightening if the tail and flights and a slight darkening of the head. Light feet?

Pic 2 is a bit more challenging, and the only thing I can pick out is the scalloping effect across the back.
Pic 2 is more difficult. I have the advantage of having seen this bird next to a normal cobalt turqblue. The cobalt shade is a touch lighter on the back and coverts, but only a touch. Have a close look at the region where the chest meets the neck ring region.
If you hadn't pointed it out, I would have never seen it. Slight separation of dark and light with a white band. It's a beautiful bird. Yours?
I am owned by my birds...and I wouldn't have it any other way :D

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bennjamin
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by bennjamin »

Johan S wrote:Benjamin, not the easiest challenge you could set. It is not simple to capture with a camera. These are the two best examples I have. Tell me what you see, and I'll tell you what I see.

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Johan, On the birds you posted, the first area I looked was the neck ring line to body colour difference. I also see a strong colour neckring line even on yearling cocks, which looks to be present in both birds you posted. The other is a slight dilation of body colour but with a flourecence that they show. I have no cobalt but have violet turq that show a very noticeable strong flourecence and lime highlights to the turq, In visual HT 2 year cocks there is no doubt they are opaline carriers right from their first moult imo.
Johan S
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by Johan S »

Ring0Neck wrote:Any chance it could be Homoz. Opaline Misty/Slaty or khaki? :?:
Looks like a visual opaline but all markers reduced to only 30% or less visual manifestation
Hi Ben, I'm 99% sure those factors don't come into play. The haziness is simply because I didn't set the camera settings properly. The bird was bred from a turqblue opaline male to a normal hen. No misty involved with him. My first reaction to this bird was much like what you say: all the markers are there, but very poorly defined. I didn't know at the time what the parentage were, so I made a statement that the bird is a very poor opaline. Of course I ended up with my foot in my mouth when the owner told me it isn't an opaline, but a split. The bird went from worst opaline to best split in the blink of an eye. :lol:

It was actually this very bird that made me start pay closer attention to split opalines.
Skyes_crew wrote:If you hadn't pointed it out, I would have never seen it. Slight separation of dark and light with a white band. It's a beautiful bird. Yours?
I don't believe you. You simply weren't sufficiently motivated. :P My bird? Not any more.
bennjamin wrote:Johan, On the birds you posted, the first area I looked was the neck ring line to body colour difference. I also see a strong colour neckring line even on yearling cocks, which looks to be present in both birds you posted. The other is a slight dilation of body colour but with a flourecence that they show. I have no cobalt but have violet turq that show a very noticeable strong flourecence and lime highlights to the turq, In visual HT 2 year cocks there is no doubt they are opaline carriers right from their first moult imo.
Benjamin, you are looking at all the right things in my opinion. You've noticed that difference in the neck ring line compared to a similar bird not carrying opaline, and the slight dilution, which are the things standing out for me too. Just one correction, the bottom bird is only 3 months old, busy with his first moult. The same characteristics, bar the light black feathers, are present the day they fledge. The top bird you have right, what you see there is the 15 month (second summer) moult.

And of course, this raises the age old question: how recessive is recessive enough to truly be recessive? :D And in general, make no mistake, the above isn't visible in every single /opaline cock. The good news for my Ozzie mates, however, is that, based on pics of Oz opalines I've seen, you have some pretty good opaline genes that side. And in my humble opinion, you have a decent chance of picking up these traits in splits.
Coastal-Birds
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by Coastal-Birds »

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Hi Johan S
Im interested in the Opaline split cocks you have posted.
I myself believe that a Opaline split does in fact look quiet different to the same coloured bird that is not split.
Many true splits i have seen in person show the bird to be lighter(brighter) and also some seem to have the scolloping effect on the shoulders.
What do you think of this cock bird as for being split to Opaline,hes rising 2yrs old so will be breeding with him soon here.
Molossus2
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by Molossus2 »

Benjamin post a pic of the bib(front).
Kappa
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by Kappa »

Hi everyone,
I have been reading some old threads and come across some which discussed a lighter strain of violet, which looks more like a cobalt. I also found some photos of an American violet in sf and df, and what stood out for me was how similar they were to sf and df deep. This got me thinking, and the questions that I asked myself was, could the deep actually be a violet variant? Could it be our version of a lighter strain of violet also?

I suppose what needs to be established is, genetically, is the deep more closely related to violet or cobalt. That same statement could also be put forward to the American violet or any other lighter strain of violet which looks cobalt. Thoughts?

Any photos of a sf American violet would be greatly appreciated, some have been deleted from the old threads.

df American violet.
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Johan S
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by Johan S »

Kappa, from an SA perspective, our light strain of violet, which we locally refer to as NT violet (Nico Theunissen) violet has, in the last few years, started going through a transformation where some consider it to be the same as the Aus deep mutation. As for the "American" violet, that bird is significantly darker than the NT violet (aka "SA deep"), but also darker than the Euro cobalt and also a local SA cobalt strain that seems to be a bit darker than the Euro cobalt. Both strains produce mauve as DF, even when mixed, so it is variation most likely. The SF/DF American violet looks very very very similar, which is what made a lot of people initially think that violet is a complete/fully dominant mutation like grey. However, we've also seen violets where there is a significant enough difference in SF/DF. The interesting thing is this: when asked which is darker, the cobalt or violet, you will find that the answer varies and depends on where you are. Willy, for example, at one stage stated that cobalt is darker than violet. That isn't the case with our birds. Violet is significantly darker over here than even the SA variation of cobalt. However, the NT violet/"SA deep" is slightly less dark and a cleaner colour than a cobalt. And now that it has come to the foreground that deep shows a lot of variation, the NT violet could most certainly turn out to be deep... Or not. Time will tell.

As far as I know, Willy has shown that violet and deep, at least, aren't alleles, and a friend of his (think it was Ron) has shown the same for dark and deep.

PS: Unfortunately, I don't see opaline features in the bird above. That doesn't mean anything though. It isn't always obvious and it is very hard to photograph what the eye really sees.
Mikesringnecks
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by Mikesringnecks »

Hi Kappa
As I recall the story, when Willy sent Deep feathers to Mutavi for microscopic analysis the response was "no different to Cobalt". If the feathers were actually analyzed, that result would mitigate against the violet variant theory. The breeding results also work against the violet variant proposition.
Of very recent interest in Australia, in the last few days, has been a couple of Deep owners stating that the the gene acts as a "colour enhancer" rather than as a simple darkening factor like Dark (European Cobalt). That was something I did ask Willy about when I got my one and only Deep TurquoiseBlue from him. However, at the time, he said that Deep was the same sort of "dusty" blue as European Cobalt not "brighter" like I thought it was in my single example.
Kind regards
mike
Indian Ringneck Vic
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by Indian Ringneck Vic »

Kappa I think your drawing closer to the answer of this recently proclaimed Deep than what you probably realise I own a light Violet hen similar to the cock in the photo you posted and have been breeding from it over the last 6 or 7 seasons and I have recently had contact with a Qld breeder whom has also been working with these birds and the overall results are encouraging. The birds we are working with are from American Violets and these birds date back to when these birds were fetching big money and were produced to the dismay of the breeders who viewed them at that time as a threat to their hefty investments.
Skyes_crew
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by Skyes_crew »

Paul...I would be interested to see your light violet hen. I have a first generation violet hen from the original violets produced here in America. But an interesting thing happened to the color of the offspring over the years when combined with a certain blue line we have in Hawaii.
I am owned by my birds...and I wouldn't have it any other way :D

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ErnieisAwesome
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by ErnieisAwesome »

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Mikesringnecks wrote:Hi ErnieisAwsome
Molossus knows what he is talking about and is therefore probably correct looking at the photo above . I only have one green, a rising one year old split opaline but the single opaline gene should not affect the colour. I have tried to attach library photos of him but if it doesn't work you will have to E-mail me direct and I will send them direct to you.
Kind regards
Mike
Thats cool . Ernie is getting bigger and hes the cutest little green bird ever !!
ErnieisAwesome
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by ErnieisAwesome »

Kappa wrote:Hi everyone,
I have been reading some old threads and come across some which discussed a lighter strain of violet, which looks more like a cobalt. I also found some photos of an American violet in sf and df, and what stood out for me was how similar they were to sf and df deep. This got me thinking, and the questions that I asked myself was, could the deep actually be a violet variant? Could it be our version of a lighter strain of violet also?

I suppose what needs to be established is, genetically, is the deep more closely related to violet or cobalt. That same statement could also be put forward to the American violet or any other lighter strain of violet which looks cobalt. Thoughts?

Any photos of a sf American violet would be greatly appreciated, some have been deleted from the old threads.

df American violet.
Image
Gorgeous bird ! I love that deep deep purple . I never see those here in NY . Alot of turquoise & lutino .
Kappa
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by Kappa »

Hi everyone,
Thanks for all your responses.
Johan, thanks for the additional details. I still feel that the deep still has a few surprises in-store for us. I also am of the opinion that violet is a darker mutation in comparison to dark. Not only visually, but also by the amount of influence/ expression it has over other mutations.

Mike , I can see how one would describe deep as a colour enhancer, it seems to take them to another level.
Paul, I agree, there is more to the deep than meets the eye, and much more to learn before we have an accurate picture of where it fits in the scheme of things. I feel that it fits in between violet and cobalt, but with the ability to shift either way of the violet to cobalt colour spectrum, depending on its relationship with the other mutation it is being combined with, thereby having the ability to express its self in many ways. I don't know if that makes sense, but it's what I have noticed.

Mel, would.it's be possible to post photos of these different blues and violets you speak of.
Cheers.
Indian Ringneck Vic
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by Indian Ringneck Vic »

Melissa here is my American Violet hen now rising 8 years old this hen produces good quality Violet blues when paired to Violet blue cocks , Blue cocks, she has also been mated to a Indigo Cobalt cock (dark) where 3 Indigo violets and 1 Indigo Cobalt were produced , she has also been mated to to Sf edged violet green cock where they produced very dark Violet Blue and edged Violet green that showed a lot of violet suffusion in the wing coverts.

The Indigo Cobalt produced from this hen is very grey looking and over 2 seasons of being mated back to Indigo Cobalt (7 young ) there has been Indigo Mauve ,Indigo Cobalt (same as mother) , Indigo Blue.
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Skyes_crew
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by Skyes_crew »

Paul, beautiful Hen. Looks a lot like mine. I keep thinking it may be the last season for my hen because she's just turned 14...and she keeps on surprising me :) I have plenty of her offspring, though none are the same as the original. I hope to pair one of her great grandsons to an indigo next year. I can't wait to see the results.

Kappa, birds are all in full moult. I'm collecting tail feathers, and I will get photos to compare the blues and violet very shortly. I've had a tough year identifying some stuff in my nests, but I think I'm getting closer to an answer. I don't want to post pics until I can get them all in a group photo. I will post photos though.
I am owned by my birds...and I wouldn't have it any other way :D

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