What is this dark Violet?

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Deon Smith
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What is this dark Violet?

Post by Deon Smith » Fri May 16, 2014 1:13 pm

Hi guys

I want to share this image with you and invite opinions on the genotype of the 3 year old. She cannot be DF Violet. Does Violet Deep (Cobalt) really produce such as rich, intense colour


Please view the image below. On the right is a 2013 Cobalt Violet hen, and the left shows her aunt of 3 years. The hen on the left is a product of my selection breeding. Note the colour of the upper bill of the juvenile.

Opinions please.

Deon

Right is a juvenile Violet Cobalt. Note the blackness in bill. Left is her aunt..jpg

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madas
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Re: What is this dark Violet?

Post by madas » Fri May 16, 2014 2:11 pm

Hi Deon,

the one on the right doesn't look like a "cobalt violet". Could be a "deep" df.
Attached pic of a "cobalt violet" breed by a friend. Parents cobalt x indigo violet.

Image

I think this bird is resembling the same phenotype as your bird in question.

madas

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Re: What is this dark Violet?

Post by Mad Max » Fri May 16, 2014 11:26 pm

Deon

A stunning bird
To me the aunt looks like a deep violet

Regards
Robert

Deon Smith
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Re: What is this dark Violet?

Post by Deon Smith » Fri May 16, 2014 11:47 pm

Thanks Stefan.

In a pairing to a Green DP/blue, she mothered a magnificent clutch of youngsters. Would the Blue be suggestive of a Deep Blue DP?
2013-11-17 16.23.46 Nest from very bright dark Violet.jpg

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Re: What is this dark Violet?

Post by Deon Smith » Fri May 16, 2014 11:56 pm

Guys


Especially the Green juvenile hen has evolved spectacularly with an uncanny bright yellow, much more than I have ever seen in a green series DP, she is only 6 mnths old now. I cannot find a scientific explanation amongst the structural colours.

This is a cellphone photo.

Deon

Violetgreen DP.jpg
Violetgreen DP.jpg (75.65KiB)Viewed 2698 times

Johan S
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Re: What is this dark Violet?

Post by Johan S » Sat May 17, 2014 3:57 am

Deon Smith wrote:Hi guys

I want to share this image with you and invite opinions on the genotype of the 3 year old. She cannot be DF Violet. Does Violet Deep (Cobalt) really produce such as rich, intense colour


Please view the image below. On the right is a 2013 Cobalt Violet hen, and the left shows her aunt of 3 years. The hen on the left is a product of my selection breeding. Note the colour of the upper bill of the juvenile.

Opinions please.

Deon

Right is a juvenile Violet Cobalt. Note the blackness in bill. Left is her aunt..jpg
Hi Doc, was the bird on the right bred from your imported violet line? I would be surprised, because the bird is much bluer than the typical cobalt violets that we have bred from some of your violets. It may be a NT violet ("deep") combined with cobalt. I have bred one of those last year and it reminds me of the bird on the right. As for the bird on the left, what a stunning bird! Does it carry two or three structural mutations? I'd guess a violet "deep" combo. I reckon that will produce the best looking purple bird. The violet(df) cobalt has already shown to be over saturated towards mauve, unless one likes a very very dark looking bird.

Another important thing to consider, the violet phenotype changes and improves over the first few years. That could also play a role here (why the youngster looks blueish).

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Re: What is this dark Violet?

Post by Ring0Neck » Sat May 17, 2014 7:15 am

It may be a NT violet ("deep") combined with cobalt.
I'll go with Johan on the young one (Madas i think said the same)
It's missing the purplish tinge of US Violet EU Cobalt. and color seems "cloudy" unlike normal violet would.
However if a Melanistic mutation exists (as suggested) in this bloodline, we could have totally new phenotypes for diff. combos.
Keep us updated.
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Deon Smith
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Re: What is this dark Violet?

Post by Deon Smith » Sat May 17, 2014 7:29 am

Johan

The youngster is a new acquisition from Hans Meyer's collection, I acquired it to try and strengthen my own gene pool's melanistic factor and deep gene. On close observation, she appears to have a violet sheen to the body but with cobalt-like wings, I cannot capture this.

Lee

Here is a recent cellphone image of the Blue Dom Pied youngster.

Deon

photo 5.jpg
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Re: What is this dark Violet?

Post by Johan S » Sat May 17, 2014 7:53 am

Deon Smith wrote:Johan

The youngster is a new acquisition from Hans Meyer's collection, I acquired it to try and strengthen my own gene pool's melanistic factor and deep gene. On close observation, she appears to have a violet sheen to the body but with cobalt-like wings, I cannot capture this.
Doc, my Ntviolet cobalt does exactly the same. Before his three month moult, he was even more violet, but more blueish now after his end of summer moult. I recall a conversation with Tienie round about December last year where I told him that the NT violet can not be deep, since the combination is clearly a purplish bird. Now I'm seeing more blue than violet, though, esp. with a proper cobalt violet in the same aviary.

I'd love some info on your gene pool's melanistic factor. :?:

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Re: What is this dark Violet?

Post by Johan S » Sat May 17, 2014 7:58 am

PS: one other thing - the green dom. pied is incredible! That's really a beauty with the almost perfectly clear body and unaffected head. :mrgreen:

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Re: What is this dark Violet?

Post by Deon Smith » Sat May 17, 2014 10:10 am

When I visited Hans in the early 2000's I was impressed with the extreme level of darkness his Darkgreens and Cobalts display. At the time the deep factor had not been identified but I guess it must have ridden along when he (unknowingly) imported the Dark Factor.

But some of these dark birds had another feature, black upper bills and/or dark nails. This represents a general increased deposition of melanin not only in the feather follicles but in the skin appendages as well. I don't know of the skin itself but I expect it. As you all know, no described structural mutation features this.

I am now in a position to work with all these darkening factors and this will require careful identification and inheritance modes.

Deon

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Re: What is this dark Violet?

Post by Deon Smith » Sat May 17, 2014 10:54 am

William Stobart reminded me of the image below, taken 2 years ago, of the same hen on the introductory image on the left, together with her sister and thus from the same gene-pool mix. There is a clear colour difference, with the one on the right darker, more matt, lacking the gloss of the one left, with a slight greyish overlay, is this Cobalt or Deep effects?


Deon

IMG_5943 (2).jpg

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Re: What is this dark Violet?

Post by Johan S » Sat May 17, 2014 12:22 pm

Deon Smith wrote:But some of these dark birds had another feature, black upper bills and/or dark nails. This represents a general increased deposition of melanin not only in the feather follicles but in the skin appendages as well. I don't know of the skin itself but I expect it. As you all know, no described structural mutation features this.
I haven't seen significant phenotype difference in the black beaks that would constitute a full melanistic mutation like in the lorikeets (where the difference is very observable even in the feathers), but it could potentially be developed further from selective breeding. I haven't seen many of the black beaks though, so there may be more to them than what I'm aware of.

The last picture features the cobalt violet in my view, i.e. a violet "deep" on the left and a violet cobalt on the right. It would be very interesting to see the three birds together, i.e. te cobalt "deep" included with those two. :)

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Re: What is this dark Violet?

Post by Deon Smith » Sun May 18, 2014 2:10 pm

molossus wrote: Concerning the richness of color in the offspring dp's... the blue isnt a Deep. the green bird reminds me of the statement made by Chris Whipps concerning the brightness of the saddleback ... prompting the suggestion that it is a 'different parblue'.
Is the richness of color manifested in dps a result of modification influence of the structural mutation ... in this case the purple mother?
.

This is a difficult question. I have a gut feeling that somehow, the mother is responsible for the richness of colour in the offspring.

I must ask, Johan, Stefan, is the mother a prototypical example of a Deep Violet? Concerning the richness of colour, and the overall brilliance, sheen? Have you found it's colour properties transmitted to the offspring?

The father is a normal Green DP /blue, bred from a Saddleback. In my view, a Saddleback is not the correct name for this colour type. Babu was the first to use this name, in the topic "Has the Saddleback code been cracked" is an image of the first ever so-called Saddleback, (the 3rd photo in the group of 4). In a personal conversation he insist the visual saddle distribution of psittacins to be an essential requisite. But we have no info on Babu's development of this colour morph. What we know is what is happening in Oz. Garry Baldwin emailed me that the name is incorrect, as well as Chris Whipps, and to me, it's striking property is it's overall brilliance, of especially the psittacins which has a vivid brightness and clarity to it, and I have yet to see a TurquoiseBlue Harlequin that match this closely.

Take a look at the following two images of Blue Saddlebacks.
BLUE SADDLEBACK aa.jpg
Blue Saddleback.jpg
My view on Saddleback is another topic. But take a look at the configuration of the pied areas on the back of the 2 siblings of the extraordinary Green DP youngster, remembering that the grandfather was a so-called Saddleback. I will use this as supporting evidence for my view on the Saddleback morph.
Blou DP 1.jpg
Violet DP.jpg
Deon

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Re: What is this dark Violet?

Post by prodigy » Sun May 18, 2014 10:23 pm

Hi Deon,

Herewith some of my examples with the SA DEEP.

Top bird is a normal blue and the bottom bird is a DF SA Deep(NOT a violet)
Image

DF SA Deep on the top and a Cobalt turquoise bird on the bottom
Image

This hen has SA Deep in and looks similar to yours
Image

I will take some pics of examples in the green series later today and post.

Peter

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Re: What is this dark Violet?

Post by madas » Mon May 19, 2014 5:20 am

Deon Smith wrote: I have yet to see a TurquoiseBlue Harlequin that match this closely.
I think Ben already breed such a bird and another breeder in your country too. :D

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Re: What is this dark Violet?

Post by Deon Smith » Mon May 19, 2014 7:09 am

Stefan I am open-minded and gathering data, would like to see these subjects :?: :roll:

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Re: What is this dark Violet?

Post by madas » Sat May 24, 2014 2:58 pm

Deon Smith wrote: I have yet to see a TurquoiseBlue Harlequin that match this closely.
Not turqBlue Harlequin but Grey turqBlue Harlequin. two distinct birds as you can see.

Image
Image

Image
Image

Your thoughts???

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Re: What is this dark Violet?

Post by Ring0Neck » Sat May 24, 2014 8:19 pm

Madas,

Parents of the bird?
My initial thought was a grey green pied.

I have a Violet Turquoise (Blue or Homoz) Pied hen, back she is mostly strong yellow on back/wings but i have to say it is yellower than a SB but it is not the same and nowhere near as nice.
Front view in my case shows clearly the difference, this bird mentioned has a muddy chest coloring while the SB is a smooth sharp color
Turq. Vio Pied hen (older pic below)
http://parakeet.me/irn/m/em/P4141126.JPG

you've seen this pic before:
Ron's Turqoise Grey Pied & mine on the right
http://parakeet.me/irn/m/em/piedz.jpg
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Re: What is this dark Violet?

Post by Deon Smith » Sun May 25, 2014 1:37 am

These are awesome birds with crystal-clear, sharp colour definition.

If one looks a little closer, the two layers of yellow psittacin is visible, one incorporated in the base colour, and then the sharply delineated foreground layer of a very bright sunflower-yellow brilliance, warm and rich.

I would appreciate a UV image that I believe will confirm the two layers.

Congratulations to the owner, I would dearly love to have those, just to look at but also to study and work with.

Deon

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Re: What is this dark Violet?

Post by Deon Smith » Sun May 25, 2014 3:10 am

madas wrote: Not turqBlue Harlequin but Grey turqBlue Harlequin. two distinct birds as you can see.

Madas this must be a Greygreen TurqBlue Harlequin, given the wide, even distribution of psittacins in its base coloration.

Deon

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Re: What is this dark Violet?

Post by Deon Smith » Sun May 25, 2014 3:14 am

But this cannot be. Can this be a Grey TurqTurq Harlequin?


Deon

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Re: What is this dark Violet?

Post by madas » Sun May 25, 2014 3:19 am

Deon Smith wrote:
madas wrote: Not turqBlue Harlequin but Grey turqBlue Harlequin. two distinct birds as you can see.

Madas this must be a Greygreen TurqBlue Harlequin, given the wide, even distribution of psittacins in its base coloration.

Deon
Hi Deon,

it must be a "blue series" bird because the tail and main flights are white. This is not the case for a "greygreen". :D

madas

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Re: What is this dark Violet?

Post by madas » Sun May 25, 2014 3:27 am

Deon Smith wrote:But this cannot be. Can this be a Grey TurqTurq Harlequin?


Deon
Yeah could be Grey Turq(homozyguos) Harlequin. Unfortunately i have no infos on the parents. I only got the pics label grey turq dom. pied. So could be turq or turqBlue.

madas

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Re: What is this dark Violet?

Post by Deon Smith » Sun May 25, 2014 3:42 am

madas wrote:

it must be a "blue series" bird because the tail and main flights are white. This is not the case for a "greygreen". :D

madas

Could be the effect of the Harlequin mutation. :wink:


Deon

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Re: What is this dark Violet?

Post by madas » Sun May 25, 2014 7:17 am

Deon Smith wrote:
madas wrote:

it must be a "blue series" bird because the tail and main flights are white. This is not the case for a "greygreen". :D

madas

Could be the effect of the Harlequin mutation. :wink:


Deon
Oh come on Deon. Any region affected by a pied mutation changes green to yellow and blue to white. Only chance to see yellow feathers (exception: main flights and tail; exception to the exception: parblue = Emerald => main flights and tail become soft yellow) within a blue series bird is by adding a parblue to the make up.

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Re: What is this dark Violet?

Post by Recio » Mon May 26, 2014 11:44 am

Deon Smith wrote:William Stobart reminded me of the image below, taken 2 years ago, of the same hen on the introductory image on the left, together with her sister and thus from the same gene-pool mix. There is a clear colour difference, with the one on the right darker, more matt, lacking the gloss of the one left, with a slight greyish overlay, is this Cobalt or Deep effects?


Deon

IMG_5943 (2).jpg
Hi Deon;

Just trying to help in the identification of the possible melanistic factors. As you say we should look not only to the feathers colours but also to the nails, bills, skin ... and I would add tongue colour, since melanocytes are also present in the mucosae. In the above pic you can see a very dark bird with an almost black tongue, pointing to the presence of a melanistic factor in these birds, further complicating the interpretation of the structural mutations mix.

Have a look at your birds tongue and try to select the darker specimens to mix with the best of the structural mutations.

Best regards

Recio

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