Deep green revisited.

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Johan S
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by Johan S »

Kappa wrote:Hi Ben,
What do you reckon, anything in this?
For those who aren't aware theses are photos of Ron's deep green juvenile and a NT violet green from SA, Johan's bird.
Hi Kappa, not my bird. I only took the picture. :)

The 2 clear traits in the green series birds in SA is 1) the bird's body colour looks darker than a dark green, yet the tail is significantly lighter and between normal blue and dark blue, and 2) the row of blue feathers in the wing coverts just above the flights (esp. evident in the picture Ben uploaded).
gattman
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by gattman »

Hi everyone,

A few days ago I was urged to check out this site as it would make some interesting reading, so I did and must admit it was entertaining. I thought I would take the time to clarify some things about Deeps and share some information that hopefully everyone can use to benefit their breeding programs. I have been breeding Deeps for over 10 years now, and have been ridiculed by fellow aviculturalists since I purchased them. I was constantly told that they weren't real cobalts, no different to normal Blues, would never double factor, and couldn't be anything worth breeding as they were originally bred from Green birds. Luckily, I didn't listen to uneducated opinionated aviculturalists and continued to do my own thing.

Over the years I have bred many Deeps, admittedly not as many as what I would have liked. Majority of my Deeps in the first 5 years were paired to straight Blue birds, producing on average 3 or 4 Blues to every Deep bird bred, much to my frustration. Each season I changed the matings of each pair in order to improve the genetics of the offspring. Over the years, I have bred varying shades of blue in the Deep birds. Some have been a shade or two lighter than my original Deeps, and some darker, even darker than the typical European Cobalt (Dark). I have been unable to figure out a reasonable explanation for this colour variation.

There has been much discussion about whether or not there are 2 types/variants of Deeps here in Australia, based on where or who they were purchased from. I can say with 100% confidence that there is NOT 2 types of Deeps in Australia as they all came from the 1 source. The first Deep bred came from Green birds that looked "a little different" by an old aviculturalist in far western Victoria many years ago. That first bird, a cock, is pictured in a photo I sent Willy, which Ben subsequently posted on this site on 29th March (2nd bird from left). That breeder obtained a colony of green birds which contained what we now know as Deep Greens from the Smith brothers, who had received them from a deceased estate and not knowing their history. The Smith brothers thought they may be different, but were not fully convinced as the birds looked virtually like normal Green ringnecks with only a subtle difference. When they sold the entire colony, the new owner agreed that if he bred something special from the Greens, he would give the Smiths 1. Several years later, the first Deep cock was bred. To my knowledge, no other Deeps were produced from the colony of Green looking birds. When that Deep cock matured, he was paired to a Blue hen and produced 3 Deep hens in the nest, 1 with a leg deformity. The following season, the pair produced 2 Deep cocks and 2 Deep hens. True to his word, the breeder gave 1 of the young cocks to the Smith brothers, and sold its siblings, a cock and 2 hens along with the 2 x 1 year old hens to a breeder in Melbourne, whilst keeping the hen with the leg deformity. Within a year, the breeder with the 5 Deeps decided to sell them off. I purchased the 2 younger hens, and the young cock and 2 hens that were rising 2 year old were sold to Ron. I saw these 5 birds on many occasions as I purchased many birds off this breeder, and he wanted me to purchase all 5 but it exceeded my finances at the time. The history of the Deeps was confirmed by the original breeder from far western Victoria, when I contacted him and went to visit him. I expressed my intent to learn more about this colour and the desire to put 2 Deeps together in the hope of breeding a double factor. This excited him as he felt he was too old to experiment, so he was happy to supply me with birds, both young and reaching maturity which I purchased. We formed a friendship, and I visited him several times a year for the next few years until his sudden death. It was after his death that his widow contacted me and offered me his collection of birds which I happily purchased.

As I started with hens and only bred Deep hens for the first 3 seasons it took me many years to breed my first double factor bird, which unfortunately died in the nest. It was then another 2 seasons later until I bred my next one. They have since matured and bred true to a DF, so I am able to prove to the sceptics that they will double factor. On the topic of colour variation from before, I have bred a typical Deep DF which is an intense dark blue bird, and from the same parents in the second clutch of the same year bred a Deep DF that was a Violet looking bird (will post some comparison pics soon). The parents of these 2 DFs were a Turquoise Deep cock that I bought off Jack Smith and a Deep hen that I bred myself. It is interesting to note that the following year I bred 3 Blues and 4 Turquoise Blues from the same pair.

As you can see from the pics that Snake posted on my behalf of my Deep Green hen, the subtle blue haze on the wing can be easily overlooked to the unsuspecting eye, and is indicative of the phenotype of the birds that produced the original Deep Blue cock, which is now in my possession. I have also found in every occasion that I have produced a Deep Violet from mating a Deep to a Violet, the Deep Violets have always been visibly darker birds with stronger colour depth than European Violet Cobalt birds.

Hopefully, I have clarified some myths and previously unanswered questions for you guys to enable you to make educated decisions on your future pairings and breeding programs. Breeding Deeps over the years has been both exciting and frustrating in my experience, but well worth it in the long run as we venture into colour combinations different to Cobalt and not seen in Australia before.

Cheers,
Martin
Johan S
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by Johan S »

Hi Martin, welcome to the forum. I hope you will enjoy the interaction and discussions. :D Thanks for the very informative post. I'll have to read it again to allow everything to sink in.

While I do that, what are your thoughts on the birds commonly known in SA as Nico Theunissen violets, which many think may be the same mutation as the Oz deep?
Snake
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by Snake »

Thanks for coming on and sharing your information Martin
It's always much better when it comes straight from the source

Cheers :D
Ring0Neck
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by Ring0Neck »

Hi Martin,

Welcome to the forum & Thanks for taking the time to unvail the history behind the deeps. Much appreciated.

It is always good to know how a new mutation came about and a good example how other mutations can appear and be lost just as quick if breeders do not observe and work with the new mutation rigurously.

Being a new member here you will not be able to post pics for a while but you can send them via email to anyone
If you have high res pics you can email them to me & i can upload them here, do not resize them.
green@
techemail.com


Ben
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Kappa
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by Kappa »

Hi Martin,
Welcome aboard. Thanks for explaining to everyone the background, the discovery and development of the deeps. Like Snake said its best said coming from the horses mouth.

There was so much we disscused in private conversations, which I never knew how much you would feel comfortable being made public. This way at least you can answer everyone's questions individually, and I'm sure there will be many. :D

I hope we don't scare you off :lol:
gattman
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by gattman »

Hi all,

Thanks for the warm welcome. I must admit my email inbox and mobile took a beating (in a good way) yesterday after my first post. I apologise if anyone suffered from information overload. I must say that it has been confirmed to me by relevant people that my account on the history was correct, as I knew it was anyway.

On the Deep Green topic, I have bred 3 over the years from 2 different pairs. They have all looked exactly the same as the pictures already posted on my behalf. I have never been keen in breeding green series birds in any of my breeding programs so I never really put much emphasis on breeding Deep Greens. The pictured Deep Green is now a rising 3 yr old hen and has naturally paired up with a Deep cock of the same age in a colony aviary so I've got my fingers crossed for some DFs this coming season. The grandfather of this bird was supposedly a DF Deep Green that came from the Smith's aviaries. I bought him years ago but never got to breed with him as he was killed by a hen a few months after I got him. He was the grandfather of Kappa's Deep Green that he has posted pics of. I say he is a supposed DF Deep Green, as he only bred for 1 season with a Turquoise Blue hen and produced 3 Green series birds. As there was no Blue series bred, I couldn't confirm that he had bred a Deep Blue which is much easier to distinguish in the nest. He was a different coloured bird, admittedly a colour that I didn't expect a DF Deep Green to be. I never took a pick of him, but the best way to describe him would be that he was a dirty, mustard/green looking colour.

In response to Johan's question regarding comparisons with SA/TN birds, I must say that unfortunately I'm ignorant on the birds and colour variotions overseas. I have not paid much attention to developments outside of Aus, so I'm not sure if I can be much help on this. I have looked at the posted pics and there does look to be similarities in the Green series birds, particularly in the blue hazing in the wings, although it looks darker in the SA birds. I understand this can vary greatly in pics due to lighting, as I see examples of this in my own Deep Green bird pics.

As explained, in my experience there have been variations in depth of colour with Deeps, usually only slight differences rather than major ones. I am by no means a photographer, but will endeavor to get you some comparison shots soon.

Cheers
Martin :)
Kappa
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by Kappa »

Hi everyone,
I've been mulling over an idea for a little while now. It's been at the back of my mind ever since Ben posted the first photo of my deep green cock with flash. The fact that our SA friends were so sure it was a misty, made me wonder if,( you're going to like this Ben) misty birds :D were with deep ones in the flock of birds that was imported (I use the term loosely :D ). Both mutations are very difficult to identify from wildtype. So the unexplained variation we see might just well be the influence of misty. Just a thought.
For those who haven't seen it

Image
What would be great is that if breeders who own misty in violet and EU cobalt could post some photos so that we can see the effect misty has on them. Preferably birds with out turquiose. I am very curious to see the phenotype it produces and how they might compare to our deep blue.

The other thing that puzzled me was the photo of the mauve in the Bastiaan book which looks very much like a df deep blue, and not the grey colour we are used to identifying as df dark.
Kappa
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by Kappa »

Hi everyone,
A puzzle from Martin. Which are the deeps and which are the cobalts?

Image

Image
Snake
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by Snake »

Middle 1 a deep ?
Snake
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by Snake »

Thinking the 1 with the long tail is a deep aswell ?
Ring0Neck
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Re: Deep green revisited..

Post by Ring0Neck »

( you're going to like this Ben) misty birds
:lol:
Love it
I will post something on this later

Re: Puzzle

2nd pic L2R

Orange peel on a hook :D Dark, Deep, Deep
Based on what?
The dark/black flights of Cobalt & Deep's dark green&blue
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Ring0Neck
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Re: Deep green revisited..

Post by Ring0Neck »

Kappa,


It can happen for sure. an unsuspected blue misty paired to a deep blue would throw everyone off.
Is it likely??
Firstly we need to pin down Blue Misty in Oz.

I have acquired a "Violet Misty" cobaltish looking bird. I paired him to a Blue series hen if indeed is carrying Misty i should breed
this season blue misty as well as violet blues without misty if i'm lucky, that will prove misty.
Then we have 100% proven Misty Blue to work with and learn in IDing misty.
ATM i think we have anywhere from 0% to 30% misty in OZ IRNs
Misty Cobalt or Violet would be very close in phenotype to Deeps and easily mistaken i think, this is where record keeping is paramount.

However, Deeps can not be Misty !
Why?
Based on Martin's explanation how the first Deeps were bred from a Green series Deep paired to a Blue
If Deeps were Misty the offspring would not have been 3 Deeps but 3 Blue Misty which we all know they are "shade lighter" than blue itself , yet the Deep Blues are close to Eu Cobalt's color proximity.

You already have a Green Deep, pairing it to a Blue will give you the confirmation of above.
I'm an Explorer
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Kappa
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by Kappa »

Sorry Ben and Snake,
Both wrong, but don't worry it took me a while. :D I think Martin's got sore cheeks from laughing :lol:
Must let you know both of you have got 1 deep right.
Kappa
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by Kappa »

Ben,
I was thinking more along the lines that there may have been some deep misty's produced from those original green birds. So some bloodlines may be just deep while others may carry both deep and misty thereby producing the variation. I could be clutching at straws.

BTW do you happen to have a photo of the df deep green cock that was post a while back on Shey's thread on pictures of deep and dark greens. It was taken with flash an he was very bronze looking. Just wondering If Martin can comment on if its what his bird looked like.
Ring0Neck
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by Ring0Neck »

Kappa
This should be the pic you're after.

Image
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Chienderace
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by Chienderace »

2nd pic, Deep, Deep and dark.
Kappa
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by Kappa »

That's the one. Thanks Ben.
Chienderace nice try, but you're as bad as the rest of us :lol:
Not so easy folks is it. So who said deep is a poorer version of cobalt. :D
Ring0Neck
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by Ring0Neck »

molossus wrote:Kappa all three are Deeps.
that would not be a fair contest if we had no Cobalts :?

did Snake get it right in his 1st post :?: :D
I'm an Explorer
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samb05
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by samb05 »

2nd Pic Dark, Deep, Dark
willowisp71
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by willowisp71 »

2nd pic L2R - deep, deep, dark?
Regards Deb
willowisp71
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by willowisp71 »

Oops, already said that's incorrect! hmmm, tricky.....
Regards Deb
willowisp71
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by willowisp71 »

It does seem that the bird on the right is different to the other two though ... Seems 'darker' than the other two through the back, so perhaps Dark, Dark, Deep? Or maybe I'm clutching at straws :P
Regards Deb
Johan S
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by Johan S »

samb05 wrote:2nd Pic Dark, Deep, Dark
My guess too.
Carr.birds
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by Carr.birds »

2nd pic dark, deep and deep

Tienie
Traceyweller
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by Traceyweller »

2nd picture - dark deep dark
gattman
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by gattman »

Good guessing guys.
Hope you had a little fun in the process.

I must say that Ben got it right with his first guess with 2nd pic: Dark, Deep, Deep. Well Done.
And for those who couldn't get the 1st pic, they are Deep, Dark, Deep.

Cheers
Martin :D
Kappa
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by Kappa »

Definitely an eye opener.
Martin I think you have the two photos reversed. I posted them in the reverse order you sent them in. So photo 1 is dark, deep, deep. And photo 2 is deep, dark , deep. Correct me if I'm wrong, it happens a lot. Just ask the warden, I mean the wife :lol:
Last edited by Kappa on Wed May 07, 2014 1:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
samb05
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by samb05 »

I have seen the half of the 2nd pic before on someones photobucket with the middle and the right bird pic was marked as Deepblue and Cobalt
Kappa
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by Kappa »

Ben,
Do you know the history of this bird? Who originally bred this bird, and from what lines, and what is their take on it? Do they refer to it as a df deep or something else?

I also have a request to our SA counterparts, can anyone post some updated photos of their df Misty green. Thanks In advance.
Ring0Neck
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by Ring0Neck »

Kappa,

Not sure,
My guess is that it is a DF? Green Deep from Jack Smith, his aviaries had the chicken wire setup & he used flash on some other pics i seen from him. and on green birds flash/night time does seem to make them look "rustier" in color even for normal greens.

Regarding Phenotype

I think we have come to a time when phenotype alone will not suffice more & more often.
Many mutations or combos will look alike & without genetical history a bird could be mistakenly IDed


From what i have seen Misty Violets, Deeps SA & OZ , Eu Cobalts will look almost identical within 90% proximity.
Combine any of the above and things get even more interesting :lol:

Priority IMO is to nail down Misty here in Oz once a 100% IDed misty through breeding,& is in the aviary we can make comparisons with all birds in the same shot as well as looking for minor markers that will tell between the mutations as minuscule as they might be.

Molossus has all of them :shock: & Johan did show just how close their phenotype is, in another thread "SA perspective" i think.
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madas
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by madas »

Kappa wrote:Hi everyone,
A puzzle from Martin. Which are the deeps and which are the cobalts?

Image

Image
Easy one:

2nd pic
deep, dark, deep.

1st pic
dark, deep, deep.
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by madas »

Ups. Sorry.

Already resolved. Haven't seen.

An extract of the 2nd pic was posted by Willy some months (years???) ago labeled left deep right dark.
So all you have to do for the first pic is compare the tail feathers (mostly color and length). :P

madas
Ring0Neck
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by Ring0Neck »

madas wrote:Ups. Sorry.

Already resolved. Haven't seen.

An extract of the 2nd pic was posted by Willy some months (years???) ago labeled left deep right dark.
So all you have to do for the first pic is compare the tail feathers (mostly color and length). :P

madas

I remember it.
Even if it was labeled so, i have hard time believing the first bird to be Deep Blue
I have not seen Deeps with black flights so maybe mislabeled!? at the time, which can easily happen when birds fly around :?
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samb05
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by samb05 »

It is the bird on the right that has been mislabeled. In this full pic it is a Deepblue and in willy crop pic its is a Cobalt
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by madas »

samb05 wrote:It is the bird on the right that has been mislabeled. In this full pic it is a Deepblue and in willy crop pic its is a Cobalt
Yeah that's how i remembered it. thx for clearing up.
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by madas »

Ring0Neck wrote: Deeps with black flights
Is your display broken? :D Can't see a bird with black flights in the pics. :?:
gattman
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by gattman »

Hi everyone,

Let me assure you all that the colours are definitely as I stated earlier:
Pic 1: Deep, Dark, Deep
Pic 2: Dark, Deep Deep.

I did send Willy these pics 1 or 2 years ago and what he did with them I do not know, he may have mistakenly incorrectly labelled them.

The darker bird on the right in pic 2 is the first Deep Blue ever bred from the original Dark Greens, and subsequently the origin of all of your Deeps. His son is to the left of him in Pic 2 (middle bird).

There has been much discussion on the small variations in colour in Deeps and it is evident regardless of what State they are from or have been bred in. I think our biggest challenge is determining with certainty what colours our offspring are, if deeps are mixed with colors such as Cobalt. I have been faced with many questions in the last year or 2 from breeders which I have sold Deeps to, who have the dilemma of not knowing what colour their chicks are. Many have paired Deeps up with Cobalt (Darks) and bred Cobalt looking birds and are not sure if they are Deeps or Darks. They have also produced Deep Darks, and think they have bred a DF Deep. This concerns me, as prospective buyers may be misled by what they are purchasing, whether it be by ignorance or mistake of the breeder. It is much easier when you are breeding from Df birds as you have a level of certainty with what is produced, but it's hit and miss with SF birds as a nice dark looking Deep can be mistaken for a Dark, and a light Dark can be mistaken for a Deep. My pictures are and example of that, and I understand that lighting in photos do play a major role, but I have breeders have just as much difficulty picking these colours with certainty in the feather as well.

Any thoughts?
Carr.birds
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by Carr.birds »

Carr.birds wrote:2nd pic dark, deep and deep

Tienie
Martin

I agree with you. It is easier in the 1st pic because I compare head colours. This is the same for the SA deep or Nico Theunissen violet. The brighter more luminous colour is deep.

1st pic deep, dark and deep

Tienie
Carr.birds
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by Carr.birds »

Dark Blue Opaline
Image

SA Deep Green Opaline
Image

SA Deep Blue Opaline
Image


Tienie
Kappa
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by Kappa »

Hi everyone,
despite our busy schedules, i was able to catch up with Martin and take some photos of his sf and df deep blues. Some of the photos of the df deeps clearly show the variation that can exist in the deep mutation, even in df.

group of sf deep blues.

Image

df deep blue compared to sf deep blue.

Image

group of df deep blues.
Image
Image
colour variation in df deep blue. These cock birds are full brothers bred in the same season in seperate clutches.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

turqoise df deep blue.

Image

Image

as you can see some of the df deep blues could almost be mistaken for violetblues.
Ring0Neck
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by Ring0Neck »

Great work Kappa & Martin, Thanks for taking the time to take these comparisson pics.
Indeed the variance in Deep's color is clearly visible in above pics.

If you have more pics of the SF Deeps by all means upload them ;)
I'm an Explorer
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Kappa
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by Kappa »

Hi Ben,
What I did find interesting was how much the turquoise df deep blue hen reminded me of your avatar hen, with the deep electric blue flights and tail.
Kappa
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by Kappa »

Here are a couple more for you Ben :D

sf deep blue.

Image

Image
Ring0Neck
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by Ring0Neck »

Kappa wrote:Hi Ben,
What I did find interesting was how much the turquoise df deep blue hen reminded me of your avatar hen, with the deep electric blue flights and tail.
I know what you mean, she is s-thing special in my eyes and not yet certain of her full gen makeup esp from her mother's side (which i still have)


Kappa

Cheers ! for the extra pics.
I'm an Explorer
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Johan S
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by Johan S »

Kappa wrote:colour variation in df deep blue. These cock birds are full brothers bred in the same season in seperate clutches.

Image
Thanks for these, Kappa. What were the parents of these two birds? If there was a DF parent involved, did it share the phenotype of the top or bottom bird? My guess is the bottom bird.
Kappa
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by Kappa »

Johan,
The parents of the two df cocks were only sf deep blues. Martin is planning to set up a pairing for the first time where he will breed a df deep blue to a sf deep blue. It will be interesting to see what they produce, and wether or not there is colour variation in the offspring.

Another combination he wants to try down the track is breeding two df birds. I think it would be good if Martin can, in the future, match phenotypically similar looking df birds and see what the outcomes are.
Mikesringnecks
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Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by Mikesringnecks »

Hi Martin
Welcome belatedly to the forum and thank you so much for the excellently presented data on the Deeps. I only have the one that I got from Willy after he presented his proof in the Bird Keeper. I won't breed with her until 2015. She is a Deep TurquoiseBlue split Cleartail.
My interest was particularly sparked in this thread by the mention of a bright "avatar" bird. The Deep TurquoiseBlue split Cleartail Willy sent to me stands out in the aviary as a much brighter than other Turquoise mutations. I did mention this to Willy and, from memory, he was initially skeptical, but subsequently somewhat more inclined to think it might be so. Does your experience lead to a view that there is anything unusually bright about the Deep Turquoise combination?
Kind regards
Mike
Mikesringnecks
Posts: 218
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2013 11:45 pm

Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by Mikesringnecks »

Hi Martin
One additional point and/or question. I have always thought of Dark Blue or Cobalt, as we insist on calling it, as a "dusty" colour in comparison say with Violet Blue. Do you see Deep Blue as having the same "dusty" characteristics as Dark Blue?
If it is not a "dusty" colour, that would explain why I think the bird Willy sent to me is unusually bright.
Kind regards
Mike
gattman
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun May 04, 2014 12:00 am

Re: Deep green revisited.

Post by gattman »

Hi Mike,
In my experience the Turquoise Deeps have brighter green colouration than the Turquoise Cobalt. I have several hens and they show similar characteristics in colour. Unfortunately I don't have any Turquoise Cobalts at the moment so I can't compare the two with some pics. What I have noticed is that the Turquoise Deeps that I have bred over the years seem to almost always have a touch darker blue flights and tail than their straight Deep siblings. The reason for this I am unable to explain, but seems to be more noticeable after the birds' first and second moults.
I think the Deeps still have that 'dusty' look over the blue, similar to what you described the Cobalt as having. Many times I have put Deeps in an aviary with Cobalts to work on picking the differences, and sometimes the task is easy, but sometimes not. This is how I first noticed the slight varying colour shades between the Deeps, as before that I had never really looked at them that closely.

I have sent Kappa a few photos of some Deeps, mostly single factored birds and some of my Turquoise, that I have asked him to post on my behalf so I hope you can compare your one to mine and see if they look the same.

Cheers
Martin
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