So my new little one has arrived home...

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Niffarious
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So my new little one has arrived home...

Post by Niffarious »

... and she is an absolute unpredictable demon. Unfortunately, I think there are several factors involved.

In my previous post, I'd mentioned I was taking on a young ringneck from a friend of a friend. She breeds them, and this one had severely splayed legs. One most mostly corrected, the other is not. I am glad I went with my original cage plan, as she has far less mobility than I was led to believe. Her flying skills seem alright, but she was clipped rather heavily before being handed over. I am not sure why as I suspect this was her primary means to get around.

This means she is not very mobile, VERY clumsy. I have arranged her cage in such a way that she can get to everything safely, and as the cage is a short but long flight she can not fall far.

My two concerns are that for a bird that is at least 4 months old, she is still making handfeeding/begging noises constantly. She is fully weaned, so this behavior seems to be primarily for attention (I think?).
Her bites are horrible. We are not talking nipping, and she gives absolutely no body language signals to indicate a bite is coming. She will be sitting on my hand or arm making content noises, then reach down and bite hard enough to draw blood, leaving a wound that will take days to heal. There do not seem to be any noise/visual cues to instigate this, and as I said - there is absolutely no warning given.

I imagine that the sudden change coupled with the loss of her primary means of mobility have left her scared and insecure. At the same time, she begs to be with me constantly - and this is simply not possible when she bites constantly, unpredictably, and with such force.

Distracting her with toys isn't possible yet. I don't think she was really provided many, and so far reacts more with fear than curiosity to toys.

Any thoughts on achieving a happy medium?
Skyes_crew
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Re: So my new little one has arrived home...

Post by Skyes_crew »

I am so sorry you are going through this. Here is an article on flight and why it is so important in early stages in a birds life. With your friend clipping your bird, she may very well have caused some issues that will dominoe as the bird grows. Some can be addressed and fixed, while others will just have to be handled in the best ways possible.

http://theparrotuniversity.com/flight.php

Read this first so you have an understanding of where we are starting from, and the whys of what your bird does. :)
I am owned by my birds...and I wouldn't have it any other way :D

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Niffarious
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Re: So my new little one has arrived home...

Post by Niffarious »

I was shocked that she did so, given how imperative it seemed to her especially (having mobility issues). I have always kept my birds fully flighted, I appreciate the article and agree with the author (I think I have read this before) - this is why I suspected a lot of the behavior is resulting directly from the wings being clipped.

My parrotlet is fully flighted and always has been. Even his breeder, who was so great about everything else, initially wanted to give his wings a trim before sending him home with me.

The difficult thing right now in attempting any training and confidence building is that she does not seem to respond to toys or treats in any way. All she wants is to be with me...and of course she then mangles my fingers!
Skyes_crew
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Re: So my new little one has arrived home...

Post by Skyes_crew »

I think first we need to get her off of you and on to a training perch where she can look at you head on. Lets get her visual cue and reaction fixed first. Try this. Hold a treat about 6 inches from her beak. Then draw it down between her legs slowly and get her to follow it. When she starts to follow it treat her. When she has that one, start the same spot but move off to the side and down. Same on the other side.
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Niffarious
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Re: So my new little one has arrived home...

Post by Niffarious »

The thing is that she isn't actually scared of my fingers/hands, unless I am misinterpreting.

She initiates a step up (putting a foot out) and will happily step up. She tries to get scratches on her head and neck, and will also gently nibble/play with my fingers.

This is the confusing part - because she seems content otherwise. The bites happen suddenly, when she seems happy and not scared. When scared her first reaction is still to fly, even though she can't go far.

Unless of course, your exercise is not about losing fear of hands... :)
Skyes_crew
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Re: So my new little one has arrived home...

Post by Skyes_crew »

Nope :) not about fear of hands. I'm thinking trouble with peripheral vision.

I've sent you a PM
I am owned by my birds...and I wouldn't have it any other way :D

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InTheAir
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Re: So my new little one has arrived home...

Post by InTheAir »

Heyo,
Poor wee bird.
It really may be worth talking to your avian vet about imping?

Regards,
Claire
Redzone
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Re: So my new little one has arrived home...

Post by Redzone »

This is exactly how Nila would have been if he had've been clipped.. Whoever clipped your bird should be reported to the rspca.. Clipping a bird who cannot get around any other way is animal cruelty plain & simple!

Our avian vet mentioned that birds in this situation should probably be put down, as it will cause them so much pain, and by the time their wings grow in they are already so mentally damaged you will be lucky to have a nice bird at the end of it all..

Sorry to sound so negative but DAMN some people can be stupid! Why the hell would you clip a bird that can't walk properly!!!
Niffarious
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Re: So my new little one has arrived home...

Post by Niffarious »

I was floored that it was done - but vitriol in her direction won't help, and the bird will not be put down.

I am finding that when she is frustrated, if I give her 'fun' things like corn on the cob it helps a great deal. I've rearranged her cage so that she can easily get from point a to b with little trouble. Everything is just sort of one leg up to get to, she can't fall far and there is a towel on the bottom. I think with actual things to climb on (the aviary she was in didn't really have anything) her co-ordination is improving.

She sings a duet with my parrotlet and, aside from the unusually unpredictable and hard biting, she seems to be settling. So, I will keep working on that.
MissK
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Re: So my new little one has arrived home...

Post by MissK »

I'm really sorry to hear about this situation. I cannot imagine what they thought they were doing when they clipped that bird!!

I think the vision test is a very good idea. I'm hoping you will also experiment and see if there is a trigger situation/position you can identify.

I agree that you should explore imping. If needed, I am certain you will find no shortage of feather donors here. Honestly, in your position I would be hopping mad, and I might even "strongly suggest" that the person who clipped the bird foot the bill for imping. If you had fully paid for the animal prior to clipping you might even have some kind of entitlement to compensation - ask somebody who actually knows about that.

Is it at all possible that she bites when she thinks she is slipping and is actually just hanging on in fear? Since she bites but wants to be with you, can you arrange her a nice-sized basket and keep her close by you, yet at a safe distance? You can line a basket with a towel for traction, comfort, and hygiene, and you can hang anything from the handle. I'm sure you could even attach food and water dishes. Her loose toys would be contained unless she threw them out, and you'd be right there to fetch. It could be like a portable play pen, safe for both of you.

I'm terribly sorry that this is all I could think of at the moment to help you!

-MissK
-MissK
ellieelectrons
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Re: So my new little one has arrived home...

Post by ellieelectrons »

Young birds can also bite to explore their surroundings and these bites can be quite hard. When Janey was little, I'd be sitting with her on the couch on our veranda and out of nowhere she'd suddenly bite my finger that had been sitting there, not bothering her, for quite sometime. It'd almost be like, "what's that thing doing there? Let's bite it and see." I think sometimes it also happens when they are feeling bored. If you think it's for the first reason (exploring), I suspect introducing a way to show your pain tolerance could work (e.g. Slight rotation of the hand, followed by a "no").

Janey will also bite if she's over-stimulated. I've found the best thing to do in this case is to sit still and calmly, ensuring sensitive areas (e.g. Face and ears) are as far away from her as possible. Eventually, she will calm down and crawl down onto my hand (when she's excited she normally runs to my shoulder) or fly somewhere else. I haven't (touch wood) received a bite since implementing this.

Ellie.
Niffarious
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Re: So my new little one has arrived home...

Post by Niffarious »

Hi Ellie, it's interesting that you mention that -

I'd started to notice that she was perhaps biting for reasons she couldn't communicate: being bored, and being hungry. She still wants to be with me at the same time, though, and clearly I need to be a mind reader. ;)

If I start out by offering a toy to explore with her beak, she will occupy herself with that. If it gets worse she usually seems to want to eat something.

I need to find to make a cripple-bird-proof bird gym
InTheAir
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Re: So my new little one has arrived home...

Post by InTheAir »

hey there,

I found a couple articles for you on birds that have undergone imping
http://www.avianveterinaryservices.co.uk/news34.html
I don't know what country you are in, but I'm sure there are donor services all over the place. here's Greg Glendell's web page too http://www.greg-parrots.co.uk/essential.php
http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/br ... 6274718639

It's not a major procedure.
MissK wrote:
If needed, I am certain you will find no shortage of feather donors here. Honestly, in your position I would be hopping mad, and I might even "strongly suggest" that the person who clipped the bird foot the bill for imping.

-MissK
I whole heartedly agree there!
Skyes_crew
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Re: So my new little one has arrived home...

Post by Skyes_crew »

My daughter has saved just about every tail and flight my birds have ever dropped. If you need any, let me know.

My thoughts on peripheral vision and biting were this. If her vision at the edges is blurry, she could react to the slightest movement just out of clear vision range. Do you remember just prior to each bite if there was any movement at all around her? It could be light change, wind movement, curtain flickering. Aything. Unfortunately, one of the reasons birds like yours don't survive in the wild is that because of their injuries their cortex develops at a slower rate. The signal to their brains to fly, to eat, to survive, is damaged. And now because your friend clipped your bird, the signals are even further destroyed. Developmental stages in birds are crucial for a birds survival. Without strong flight during the growth period, sight is severely impaired. I truly fear this is the cause of her biting. It may ease as she becomes more familiar with the sounds around her to combat the loss of vision. I agree with MissK that maybe a basket lined with soft towels placed next to you where she has a clear line of vision of you is safer right now. I am so saddened by this. And so mad at your "friend".
I am owned by my birds...and I wouldn't have it any other way :D

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Niffarious
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Re: So my new little one has arrived home...

Post by Niffarious »

Hey guys,

Just to be clear - the woman I got this bird from really does love her flock. She's not a friend of mine, but a friend of a friend who heard so many stories about my birds and I that she wanted me to take this little one in the hopes of having a good home.
The wing-clipping was not done out of malice, and I have noticed that in my area this practice is still EXTREMELY common even with some of the best breeders. In the end, all she wanted was this bird to have a good home. Though this issue with the bird being clipped is sad, in her heart she really just wanted the best for this bird. I did not pay for Ankaa, it was an adoption.

In any case - yesterday was better. Distractions help. I think part of the issue is that she needs to learn to communicate with me, and wants to be with me, to be mobile, but also gets easily frustrated if I don't understand what she needs. My livingroom table is of Japanese design and low to the floor...I may set this up so she has access to food and things to play with, but can be near me at the same time.

I am looking into imping, and appreciate the offers for feathers. You guys are awesome. :)

I do not think anything is wrong with her sight - she has had full feathers up until now, as best as I can tell and is now 4+ months old. I assume this is still a developmental stage, but would the damage here be lessened?

MissK: sorry, I somehow missed your post. I shouldn't forum pre-coffee. ;)
The bites are definitely not from slipping, but from what I can tell definitely frustration. I'm trying to find ways for her to tell me what she wants, and hopefully setting up a safe station (a basket like you said, or on my low table while I work) where she can choose the things she needs will help.
Last edited by Niffarious on Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Skyes_crew
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Re: So my new little one has arrived home...

Post by Skyes_crew »

As a whole I can probably safely say that our anger towards the wing clipping is in defense of the bird. We mean no harm or malice towards the breeder. We just feel strongly towards your situation. I personally apologize if I've offended you.

I do not know what your birds flight habits were in the old aviary so I can not say for sure if the wing clipping aided in sight problems or caused some. A vision test is the only thing that could answer whether she sees clearly or not. But you are the birds mommy now. And if there's one thing I learned as a mom, its that mothers intuition is usually spot on. :D
I am owned by my birds...and I wouldn't have it any other way :D

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Niffarious
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Re: So my new little one has arrived home...

Post by Niffarious »

Oh I'm not offended at all, you guys are awesome! I just wanted to clarify, though I understand why everyone is upset of course. :)

I'm going to do some vision tests tonight
Redzone
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Re: So my new little one has arrived home...

Post by Redzone »

I'm glad you understand where we are coming from, and I'm super happy that you sound like a responsible bird owner/friend, this little one needs someone like you to help her :)

Imping should give a lot of her confidence back i'd say.
Skyes_crew
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Re: So my new little one has arrived home...

Post by Skyes_crew »

Redzone wrote:I'm glad you understand where we are coming from, and I'm super happy that you sound like a responsible bird owner/friend, this little one needs someone like you to help her :)

Imping should give a lot of her confidence back i'd say.

I agree 110%
I am owned by my birds...and I wouldn't have it any other way :D

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InTheAir
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Re: So my new little one has arrived home...

Post by InTheAir »

She would look awesome with skyes old flight feathers! yellow and Blue are very complimentary!
Skyes_crew
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Re: So my new little one has arrived home...

Post by Skyes_crew »

Oh yes...and they are a deep blue too. That would be so pretty. :D
I am owned by my birds...and I wouldn't have it any other way :D

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MissK
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Re: So my new little one has arrived home...

Post by MissK »

OK, I realize this is a serious issue and I'm a little out of line, but how cool would it be for the bird to be imped with Alllll the colours we collectively could send in? It would be like It's a Ringneck, no, it's Greenwing, no, it's a Rainbow Lory, no it's a............

-MissK
-MissK
Skyes_crew
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Re: So my new little one has arrived home...

Post by Skyes_crew »

You know MissK, I think that is a grand idea. A rainbow coat of colors to protect her. :D
I am owned by my birds...and I wouldn't have it any other way :D

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Niffarious
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Re: So my new little one has arrived home...

Post by Niffarious »

I've contacted the only decent Avian vet in my area to find out if they do this, and costs involved. It doesn't seem terribly invasive so I'm hoping it's something I can manage!

You guys are riot. Imagine with all those colours :D
MissK
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Re: So my new little one has arrived home...

Post by MissK »

For anyone who is not up to speed on this conversation, lurking maybe, here is a little vid I found on (where else?) You Tube giving a fine demo on imping. Incidentally, I think we can now all officially stop winge-ing about our hand shy birds, as you see this woman has a wild owl in her hands, and he doesn't seem to care at all. "We're not worthy! We're not worthy!" :lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAffufympy4

It does bring into light the use of anesthesia, something I would personally be shy of for my bird if there were other options. Everyone has their own thoughts on the risk and benefit of that. Personally, for a new friend in clear need, I would probably chance it. But! I cannot make that choice for anyone else.

-MissK
-MissK
Skyes_crew
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Re: So my new little one has arrived home...

Post by Skyes_crew »

Wow is all I can say. Sniff sniff.
I am owned by my birds...and I wouldn't have it any other way :D

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Skyes_crew
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Re: So my new little one has arrived home...

Post by Skyes_crew »

Hey :D

Just checking in to see how your little one is doing? I know you're probably busy with her. I hope she's still settling in nicely. Keep up the good work with her!!! :D

-Mel
I am owned by my birds...and I wouldn't have it any other way :D

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Niffarious
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Re: So my new little one has arrived home...

Post by Niffarious »

Checking in!

She is doing well...I would say better. She is getting around her cage better, and I am better able to read her body language. She does not seem to have any vision issues - she seems to be able to easily track stuff, isn't startled easily and these sorts of things.

What I've done is cleared my table in the living room and put a towel down. On there I have a few foot toys, some food and water, etc. So if she wants to be with me but starts getting nippy (which seems to be because she is bored, but wants to be near me) I put her down here to distract her. Quite often I'm also using the table to work on projects or on my laptop, so she can hang out with me but has safe access to other things to do. So far this is helping.
She only makes handfeeding cries now when I walk by and she wants to be pet. For such a young bird, she is already mimicking a lot. She copies my parrotlet, and copies me to a degree. If I cough ones, she will make one weird noise. If twice, she makes it twice, and so on.

The clinic I am trying to deal with (the only avian one I know of in my location) is being difficult. They did not respond to my email requests, and over the phone the vet tech/secretary/whoever didn't know if they did imping, wouldn't find out, and said I had to come in for an examination to determine it was even necessary (despite her not knowing what it even is...). :roll:
Skyes_crew
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Re: So my new little one has arrived home...

Post by Skyes_crew »

In the interest of not keeping anyone in the dark...in a pm between niffarious and myself we discussed the avian vet available to her. I also spoke to the receptionist and she advised that Ankaa be brought in for an evaluation to determine if her condition could be improved by such a "unique" procedure. Her words, not mine. I then pushed to see if they even did the procedure and was told that she had never even heard of the procedure and in all the years she had worked there the AV had never done one to her knowledge. She also told me I was doing my friend no favors by asking questions for her when the bird obviously needed to be seen. She was a bit touchy with me at that point so I thanked her for her help and said goodbye. Didn't want them to refuse to see Ankaa in the future.

I wish there was another AV up there. Is there a college nearby that offers veterinary medicine? Sometimes if you call the school they can refer you out somewhere. How about a local zoo?
I am owned by my birds...and I wouldn't have it any other way :D

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Niffarious
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Re: So my new little one has arrived home...

Post by Niffarious »

Unfortunately, the only local zoo I know of is a death trap (not really a zoo IMO).

There's a local rescue society, but they work with the same vet we are speaking of.

UBC does not have a veterinary school, unfortunately. I have another contact I can touch base with to see if she knows of anything. She runs the only bird-only supply store (amazing place) and we are on the same page about a lot of things, so she may have some ideas.
Skyes_crew
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Re: So my new little one has arrived home...

Post by Skyes_crew »

I found these lists of avian vets in BC but not sure how far they are from Vancouver. Just follow the links

http://dcoggles.wordpress.com/avian-vet ... ans-in-bc/

http://www.wctropicalbird.com/bird%20ed ... inarin.htm
I am owned by my birds...and I wouldn't have it any other way :D

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InTheAir
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Re: So my new little one has arrived home...

Post by InTheAir »

Wow, I have read that it's not a common procedure on parrot, but it's certainly well known of in the parrot world. I thought most vets get excited and start pulling out their textbooks when they get to try something unusual.

I think it would be worth getting in touch with greg glendell, as he is a strong advocate of imping and runs a donor service. He may know of options close to you or be able to provide your av with support or information.

Or join the closest Falconry club :mrgreen:


I'm so glad your wee one is settling in!

Redzone's bird had jms and has pigeon toes and scoliosis as a result of fractures sustained in the nest. He's almost a year old now and is really good at climbing now. He used to fly everywhere at first, even if he just wanted to climb down a foot he would fly there. Now he is a big boy he does some really crazy climbs! I'm sure your baby will adapt in her own way too.
How old is she now?

Regards,
Claire
Niffarious
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Re: So my new little one has arrived home...

Post by Niffarious »

Skyes_crew: a couple of those might be manageable, most are a bit too far. WC Tropical Bird studio was the store I mentioned in my last post - I'm going to give her a call tomorrow for a recommendation on the vets in that list.

Claire: She is about 4 months, and my understanding is that she took longer than normal to wean. She has put on weight since I got her though, and every day she is exploring more new foods and toys, so she is overcoming a lot of her initial fears. Right now the issue is primarily the biting (for me) and of course I worry about her well being.

This morning I saw her running up and down her ropes like a monkey, so I have hope that she will adjust.

What I might try to do this weekend is get a video of our interactions so you guys can see some of what I am talking about. This may be a challenge as she LOVES my phone. Pro tip: parrot tongues work on touch screen devices, and they can send texts. :lol:
Skyes_crew
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Re: So my new little one has arrived home...

Post by Skyes_crew »

Oh that's awesome!!! Let me know what she says.

A video would be great so we can see her playing and interacting and how she gets around. And thanks for the tongue tip. I did not know that :D

A falconry club may not be such a bad idea. I hear they have a lot of experience at these things sadly enough.
I am owned by my birds...and I wouldn't have it any other way :D

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MissK
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Re: So my new little one has arrived home...

Post by MissK »

Chiming in late, I agree. Look for a falconry club.

Where is the location, exactly?

And stop speaking to the receptionist. She makes appointments. Speak to the vet. If you absolutely cannot get through, try going there and asking one of the patrons to speak to the vet for you, maybe pass on your number and mention you can't get past the desk. The vet might be completely unaware.

-MissK
-MissK
Skyes_crew
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Re: So my new little one has arrived home...

Post by Skyes_crew »

I found the BC Falconry club website. Maybe contact them directly.

http://www.falconry.ca/bcfalcon.htm
I am owned by my birds...and I wouldn't have it any other way :D

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InTheAir
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Re: So my new little one has arrived home...

Post by InTheAir »

Just don't bring the ringneck to the club meetings or the other birds will think you have brought lunch lol
Skyes_crew
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Re: So my new little one has arrived home...

Post by Skyes_crew »

Oh boy!!!! Very very true :lol:
I am owned by my birds...and I wouldn't have it any other way :D

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InTheAir
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Re: So my new little one has arrived home...

Post by InTheAir »

Nila weaned late too, he got coddled and treated like the prince he is by the breeder. He has always been gentle though.
ellieelectrons
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Re: So my new little one has arrived home...

Post by ellieelectrons »

I'm wondering if she might be due a moult soon? When do young birds have their first moult? Would she have already had it?

Ellie.
Niffarious
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Re: So my new little one has arrived home...

Post by Niffarious »

Hi all -

I kind of dropped off the face of the planet. When life gets busy...the forums always seem to be the first thing to go!

I wanted to update that she has been moulting, and is regaining her ability to fly. Unfortunately, her tail is a mess. Because she is so handicapped, she uses her tail like a third leg. It helps her get around, but her tail looks awful. I'm not sure their is anything I can do there.

Also, I was going through a very frustrating period with biting which I believe I posted about. She bit to draw blood, even though she wanted to be with me.
Every time she did this I would put her back in her cage, and one day this behaviour changed on a dime. Literally a 180 flip overnight. She has stopped biting completely, and actively seeks out my hands for attention. If I am laying down on the couch she will fly across the room, climb up the couch, and press her head into my face as hard as she can. She then tries to find my hands and forces herself underneath them. (Rumor has it this whole process is pretty amusing to watch).

The downside is that her new favourite hobby is screaming. I ignore the behavior and do not reinforce it, but this is certainly a challenge.
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