Choosing a New Cage

Donovan · Post by **Donovan** » Tue Feb 25, 2014 7:15 pm

In the somewhat near future (8 weeks maybe pending certain variables) I will be getting my second bird.

I would like to go cage shopping soon.

Now the local pet store doesn't have a great selection for cages. My current IRN has a cage that's big enough but admittedly a tad too small for him. That local pet store has a variety of budgie/finch cages, but nothing for larger birds, with one exception, the same exact cage i already have for my current bird.

Since I'm always feeling like the current cage is a bit too small i'm doubting whether I should purchase another one. The upside to it is that it's easy to transport. I have a large walk-in cage outside and when the weather is good I will take my bird out there.

If I get a larger cage for the new bird I may find it more difficult to transport it outside. If I get the duplicate cage I will find it easy to move around but I'll always feel like the cage is a bit too small.

Not sure what to do.

MissK · Post by **MissK** » Tue Feb 25, 2014 9:14 pm

Hi Donovan,

Can you provide a link to the cage you are using now, the one you feel is on the small side? As you know, I'm always shilling for the HQ Double Flight I use, but in truth I think the single one they make might be sufficient for a Ringneck. Not for, you know, *MY* Ringneck, but maybe for somebody else's....

Donovan · Post by **Donovan** » Wed Feb 26, 2014 3:10 am

http://petsmart.com/mt/www.petsmart.com ... lInUS%2FNo

Again, the cage is too small, but it can be carried easily out to the big cage.

MissK · Post by **MissK** » Wed Feb 26, 2014 9:43 am

Donovan, the link only brought up PetSmarts's main site. I've run into that internet problem before. It's annoying. What are the inside dimensions of your cage?

Also, if you can transfer the birds from cage to cage, a little travel cage might do well for getting them out to the aviary.

AJPeter · Post by **AJPeter** » Thu Feb 27, 2014 2:21 pm

Have you tried Amazon?

tasha87 · Post by **tasha87** » Fri Feb 28, 2014 11:19 am

Yes! Try amazon they have very nice cages for a great price....im getting ready to order all my birds new cages and play stands

Donovan · Post by **Donovan** » Fri Feb 28, 2014 4:32 pm

I am a bit leery of buying a bird cage online. I really want to see the cage.. hold it.. examine it. Yes that's a little weird i suppose.

I am about to buy a cage tomorrow and I have decided the cage will be small enough to carry but large enough for an Indian Ringneck to live in at least 12-15 hours a day.

The biggest problem with my current cage is that it's narrow. Yes it's nice and tall, but it's narrow. Put in a couple of toys and perches and the ability to move around becomes complicated.

So the cage I find tomorrow will be fatter. I don't care so much about how tall it is. Ultimately the bird will spend enough time out of the cage that having a good tall cage won't really matter. I even found a nice expensive cage that I realize i don't want because it is tall and skinny. I'm looking more at short and fat. When I get the cage tomorrow I'll post up the specs.

MissK · Post by **MissK** » Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:02 pm

I believe in general that it's more important that a cage be wide than tall. Don't forget to accommodate the tail. Don't go under 22 inches, PLEEEEEZE.

I am on board with wanting to touch the cage before buying. I get it. A lot of it has to do with wire gauge.

I'm still going to advocate getting a decent sized cage (or two) and using the one you have now or a smaller one as a transport cage to get to the aviary. C'mon, humor the MissK!

You could get a pair of these: http://www.petco.com/product/114149/Pet ... OgodeVIAZQ

At that price, two is doable. They come with a stand on wheels. Certainly not as big as I would prefer, but I think possibly big enough, for a bird who comes out at lot. Rocky has this cage for when he's coming with me in different rooms of the house and I don't want to lock the dogs up. Ranechild's bird Fats Waller stayed in it for a few days, and he had no complaints. The "landing platform" at the upper front is a really great feature. The door is simple and easy to use. Food cups swing out of their own doors, so handy. The wire is very thick. I like this cage. That said, the footprint is 22" x 22" and the interior height at the apex is 36".

Of course, I'd really like to sell you on a pair of these: http://www.petco.com/product/112008/Pre ... age-112008 but I can't vouch for the wire since I haven't seen them in person. My cage wire is 3mm, if you can Google a comparison to AMERICAN wire gauge. You should not go any thinner than 3mm.

InTheAir · Post by **InTheAir** » Sat Mar 01, 2014 3:13 am

I second the flight cage suggestion. I think that is similar to sapphires cage, though I find it a bit small, it is adequate. A double flight with no devided would be better.

The first cage missk posted is the same as Nilas cage at work, it's ok for a couple hours, but really too small for an every day cage. . There just isn't the room for all his foraging toys and bath tub as well.

MissK · Post by **MissK** » Sat Mar 01, 2014 6:31 am

It is true I put Rocky in that first cage for four consecutive days while I broke down his normal cage for cleaning and redecorating. He was not amused, and after a day or two he started complaining. I think I complained about that, myself, on a different thread.

He quieted down once he got back home.

I think a bird used to smaller would be happy there. It's true quarters are tight, and I would never condone a cage any smaller. It does sound like Donovan's bird (and bird to be) will come out a lot, and if they are visiting an aviary outside most days, I could bless the dome top cage.

But yeah. I would like to see everybody using the HQ Double Flight. Is that so wrong????

Face it, InTheAir, not everybody is going to install a cage that is measured in meters or yards. Moment of silence.

Donovan · Post by **Donovan** » Sat Mar 01, 2014 7:31 pm

Well, it's done. I spent all day and a tank of gas visiting pet shops across 3 cities. It is amazing how few bird cages are out there.. real cages... apparently pet shops think "bird" means finch and budgie. Every cage everywhere was tiny.

I found a couple of medium size cages that were close but i couldn't bring myself to buy. Anyway towards the end of the day I finally found one in the place I was avoiding (heavy commercial traffic area).

They had several medium and large cages still in the box. I decided on a 30x30x43 cage.... then I changed my mind when I remembered that the opening to the walk-in cage outside is only 24" .. so I went with a 22x22x34.... that's considerably smaller than my first pick but it's easier to handle physically.

It was suggested to get a travel cage to transfer the bird(s) outside to the walk-in cage, but here is the scenario. I move the bird(s) outside before work. I don't have time to convince them to get into a travel cage to go outside. I'd rather pick up the cage and carry it outside... turn them loose, and be done with it. Though, I should still get a travel cage for vet visits. I've never taken Mr. Bell to the vet. (no lectures

) Eventually I Will take him and I'll be better off carrying him in a small cage obviously.

So .. what about a small pet carrier?.. do people use those for birds? Ya know, the thing you carry your cat in. And if so, would a little perch need to be rigged up or would a bird be well enough to sit on a couple of towels inside??

Anyway, here's the cage, I'm sure someone was going to ask

... it's nothing special... the top doesn't even open. I'm sure i'll figure out a method for opening it up for the bird to come in and out as he pleases. http://www.petco.com/product/114149/Pet ... rdFC_Cages ... I just realized this is the exact cage Miss K suggested as a bare minimum haha. ... neat.... I would have gone larger but again i need to be able to carry it in and out of the walk-in cage... so..

I really wish I were rich so that I could dedicate a large section of my rich house to being an indoor aviary. Unless you have an aviary that's about 1 acre in size you'll always feel like your bird's space is too small.

MissK · Post by **MissK** » Sat Mar 01, 2014 9:02 pm

Soooooooooooooo, how does it stack up to the cage Mr. Bell is in? And does Bell get a new one too?

If you open up that door with the latch at the top center front, you will most likely find a groovy drop-down platform. That's your spot for the bird to come and go as he pleases, as well as hang out, get treats from you, etc. Don't put any breakable dishes up there, though. I learned that the hard way.

Pet carrier - I paid about $40 for a nice travel size cage, sight unseen, online. I feel this was perhaps a mistake. http://www.mysafebirdstore.com/CARRIERS ... er_18.html My complaints are many, but it all boils down to the way I feel this cage is just too cheap to be $40. Plus shipping? My word! First, the parts were wedged under the grate for shipping and there was no way to get them out (that I could find) without bending parts of the cage and the pan was already warped from this treatment. I'm not happy with the cheesy latch. I don't like whatever that stuff is that's coating the wires. It's not very graceful about accommodating the long tail. Of course the perch is the wrong size. I don't even like the food cups, and there's nothing wrong with them. Maybe I'm just too picky. We generally use an 18" cube cage that originally entered my life 20 years ago with some finches in it. That cage has got around, I can tell you!

Moral of my story? Just use whatever works. Go down to Goodwill before you shop anywhere else. Critical points in the travel cage are: has a place to attach perch and food cups, secure latching, will maintain hull integrity in face of an assault from a dog (or whatever), doorway will accommodate your pet, carry handle. If it doesn't have a pan (which is just one more thing to slide out and make trouble) you can use a towel. Towels do get dirty quick, though. You will have two, so try for something you can carry both at once or stack to carry. I have a little dolly with bungee cords for my stack of cages, but you may not need to go so far.

InTheAir · Post by **InTheAir** » Sun Mar 02, 2014 3:45 am

Missk, parrot keeping culture is evolving. 20 years ago it was the norm to keep a cockatoo in a cage that I'd consider small for a ringneck, and tame and train them by chopping off its wing (deliberately not plural) and give it one toy. Today a lot of people find this unacceptable. I think we can make cages that are measured in metres the norm one day! Nilas is a little cramped... But he doesn't spend much awake time in it. ..

Donovan, if you ever want tips for travel cage training my bf or I are here. Dave takes both birds to work a couple days a week and still arrives on time! It takes about 10 seconds per bird, including latching the cages. It was also dead easy to train them. We use budgie/cockateil cages as they are easy to carry and the birds like to see out the windows in the car.

MissK · Post by **MissK** » Sun Mar 02, 2014 7:40 am

I agree that things are progressing, and we are rightly shocked to see old fashioned practices when they surface from time to time. I do hope one day people are all willing to keep their birds in very large cages. I just don't have that much faith in humanity. It's part of what leads me to feel we have no right to keep them at all. What a cheery thought for first thing in the morning!!!

A happier thought- I'm watching Rocky chewing the braided jute perch he's standing on. He's gonna get a *surprise* any second now.....

AJPeter · Post by **AJPeter** » Sun Mar 02, 2014 1:41 pm

i bought a small cat travelling plastic box for £10 and have used it twice to take Bille to the vets. Small cages can be quite expensive, Northen Parrots sell a travelling cage with perch for £229! More than l paid for Billie's cage. Towels are quite acceptable to protect your bird sliding about and can be put in the wash after use.
Your post time MissK was 2.40 pm is that early in the morning for you?

MissK · Post by **MissK** » Sun Mar 02, 2014 10:53 pm

AJ, my post directly above yours lists (for me) as 10:40 am. So morning, but not early morning even by my standards.

InTheAir · Post by **InTheAir** » Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:27 pm

MissK wrote:AJ, my post directly above yours lists (for me) as 10:40 am. So morning, but not early morning even by my standards.

Sorry if I am stating the obvious:
It says 1:40 am my time. This is because it is set to the time of the place you say you live in when you signed up. ...

Back on topic:
The thing to watch for in carriers is that the bird cannot get its head stuck in the bars.

AJPeter · Post by **AJPeter** » Mon Mar 03, 2014 2:50 pm

How strange the top right corner of your post says Posted Mar 2 2014 6.27 am, and for MissK 5.52 am very confusing but back to the topic.

I have been warned that the plastic cat box has a door that a bird could easily get its head caught in the grid but when my Billie was in it l was talking to her all the time.

Have you bought the new cage hime yet Donovan? In the catalogue the photo shows a top landing platform, Mr Bell will be very jealous, either you will have to give him the new cage or buy one with a landing paltform just for himself.

MissK · Post by **MissK** » Mon Mar 03, 2014 4:55 pm

Hi AJ,

This forum has a nifty feature. I think it helps us understand each other better.

We make a post and the time of our posting is displayed as you have noted.
Each of us sees that time displayed in our own equivalent local time.
In this way, for my post that says:

I agree that things are progressing, and we are rightly shocked to see old fashioned practices

each of us will read what time it was for ourselves when I made that post.

Thus, the same post is listed for you as 2:40, for InTheAir as 1:40, and for me as 10:40, since we are all in different time zones.

I like this feature because I can easily figure out how long it's been since the post I am reading was made. I don't have to consult a map and do any math to figure out how many minutes or hours ago somebody said something.
Neat, huh?

Donovan · Post by **Donovan** » Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:16 pm

.
.
Alright, here's Mr. Bell's cage

The measurements on this cage are something like 30"H .. 22-24"W .. and 19"L .. .. that 19"L is the problem. It's tall enough, and wide enough, but still a bit narrow. The top opens at least. This is the cage he was in at the pet shop that I bought him from and I decided to buy the cage too, which actually seemed to surprise the shop owner. I didn't want him handled or freaked out too much so I wanted him to stay in the environment he was already accustomed to as much as possible.

And here is the cage for the new bird (whose name may be Neko.

It's 22.8" L X 22.8" W X 34" H with no open top...

Yes I have purchased this cage already. It's in a box. I'm dying to open it and put it together but I won't because I don't want Mr. Bell going to it and thinking it belongs to him.

So each cage has its merits. The first has an open top... the second is a little bigger. I have no doubt that it will still seem too small, but at the end of the day 22x22 is the max since the door to the walk-in cage outside is 24" wide.

And thanks for the head-caught-in-the-grid concept for pet carriers. I didn't think of that. I'm sure it's happened to some poor bird before...

oh.. and on a side note.. my bird feeder outside.. the local birds (rens, cardinals, sparrows).. one of them has figured out how to open the top of the feeder, and one of the little rens or sparrows (not sure what the bird is) has been going inside of the feeder and just hanging out. I thought that was neat.

here he is. Neat little bird. I like him. He doesn't fly away when I go near the feeder. He hangs out at the feeder all day every day. haha he's probably lost his survival skills because of my bird feeder. He gets out of the way but only a little. He's either brave because he knows he's faster than me, ... he's used to seeing me... or it's just in their nature to push the envelope a little more than the other birds do.

(this is not the actual bird, but seems to be the species)

MissK · Post by **MissK** » Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:52 pm

Awww, get Bell an identical new cage too!!

He deserves it! If my urging won't do it, I bet a week into using the easier front door and fed doors will convince you!

That landing platform will be fine instead of an opening top, and you'll be able to hang stuff inside without it then making trouble to open the top you won't have to open. If that makes sense. You'll probably be wanting one more stainless coop cup for fresh foods.

I fed the outside birds today, too. I usually don't, since they are willing to share with the outside MICE, but I had some time and it was a snow day. I ended up putting the plate of birdseed inside an old wire dog crate. This excluded everything bigger than a cardinal, so the songbirds were able to eat in peace without being chased off by starlings, grackles, and crows. Not to worry, I made those guys a plate of their own way far away.

AJPeter · Post by **AJPeter** » Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:19 pm

I am afraid I still do not understand the time zone, but not to worry, "Let's call the whole thing off!"

Donovan, if you were a bird and sat on a perch in that cage it would not matter if the depth was was only 19" because it is wide enough to flap your wings. A top opening cage has advantages Billie cannot wait until her top is open, she flies to the top perch very easily and loves climbing up and down inside and outside her cage but best of all she loves to sit on top of the cage lording it over everyone. The cage l have the top opens out, blast! I cannot up load an attachment maybe the next shot

The bad news is that when she sits on the top she sometimes poops straight into her feed bowl unless l am quick and move her along.

AJPeter · Post by **AJPeter** » Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:23 pm

Is that it?

AJPeter · Post by **AJPeter** » Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:31 pm

Donovan when you come to assemble the new cage leave the bolts very slack just a turn or two of the nut, in that way the last bolts will slide into the remaining holes easily. Then when it is altogether then you can tighten all the nuts.

What was the cost of new cage? Billie's cage cost £139

Quite likely when Neko is settled she and Mr Bell will be in and out of each others cage and might even swop over.

InTheAir · Post by **InTheAir** » Tue Mar 04, 2014 3:05 pm

"Donovan, if you were a bird and sat on a perch in that cage it would not matter if the depth was was only 19" because it is wide enough to flap your wings."

Seriously? if you were a bird that Sat on a perch all day, your owner should take you to a vet. Parrots are meant to bounce around, play and explore.

AJPeter · Post by **AJPeter** » Tue Mar 04, 2014 3:15 pm

Did I say "All day?"

Is this bash AJ week?

InTheAir · Post by **InTheAir** » Tue Mar 04, 2014 3:43 pm

AJPeter wrote:Did I say "All day?"

Is this bash AJ week?

This forum is a very useful resource for many new owners. Lots of people read without posting. If information is grossly inaccurate, it is best corrected to ensure that companion parrot keeping continues to improve its standards of care. I'd hate to see it regress!

I don't think it is wise to justify an undersized cage. Donovans bird is in a different sitution and is lucky enough to have a lovely aviary to zoom around in all day during the warmer months, most birds don't.
Most pet birds are confined to small cages most of the week while their owners make a living. A lot of them don't even get time out of their cages! I will not contribute to encouraging these conditions.

AJPeter · Post by **AJPeter** » Tue Mar 04, 2014 4:54 pm

Fair enough!

Wht did you think of the cage l got for Billie, Claire?

Donovan · Post by **Donovan** » Tue Mar 04, 2014 6:17 pm

y'all have succeeded in confusing me haha..

what's this about cage depth and the like?...

mr bell spends a lot of time out of his cage and neko likely will also.. ... neko is a 'he' btw...

Donovan · Post by **Donovan** » Tue Mar 04, 2014 6:26 pm

InTheAir wrote: Donovans bird is in a different sitution and is lucky enough to have a lovely aviary to zoom around in all day during the warmer months, most birds don't.
Most pet birds are confined to small cages most of the week while their owners make a living.

Okay.. Yes Mr. Bell has a large walk-in cage outside, but it's funny how pitiful he acts when I make him go there. In the last couple of weeks it's been warm enough to put him outside twice. (on the weekend) .. He acted so sad.. he moped and pouted for 2 hours haha..

anyway, aside from that. I don't always put him in his little cage. Sometimes I leave him out while I'm at work but if i can (or feel like it) I'll put him in his cage.

I have come to realize that whether he is in his cage or out, or in the walk-in cage outside he pretty much just sleeps all day. He's set to my routine and seems to come to life around 7-10pm

On the weekends he wants to play in the morning. I guess he wants to play every morning but I'm busy getting ready for work. .. yada yada...

The point here is that Mr. Bell isn't always in his cage during the day.

pards007 · Post by **pards007** » Wed Mar 05, 2014 2:10 am

I became sssooo dizzy after reading all the posts about cages. Size looks like somewhere around Length 25-30 x 22-25 Width x 35 height for one bird is the smallest anyone will go (of course the caveat is "as big as you can go" goes in there). Bar spacing seems pretty squishy but I would feel safe with 3/4 inch more then anything. So does this sound like a good rule of thumb? Going to be buying a cage in a couple of months (my IR is only 19 days...oooo wait it's after midnight yay 20 days!!!.

MissK · Post by **MissK** » Wed Mar 05, 2014 6:50 am

Hi pards,

I would agree that is about the smallest a person should ever use for their Ringneck, provided the bird gets a lot of time out of the cage. It really isn't big enough for a bird that's jailed most of the time and only coming out for an hour or so a day.

Sorry your head is spinning, and congratulations on your birdie! Yay! Please look at a lot of cages so you can get an idea of what's out there. Also it would be smart to compare prices because different sellers put different prices on the same cage. I'm in USA, so I can give some opinions on cages available here. I always try to get people to buy the cage I use, although in my own opinion it would be better to use a bigger cage. Still, I am working with the "biggest cage you can manage" concept. I use the biggest one I, personally, could manage (read: Pay For) times two. One day I hope to go bigger. This is the cage I use: http://www.birdscomfort.com/doubleflight_bird_cage.html I like this seller as well, but they ship from Florida and the charge goes up depending on the further you are located from Florida. The bar spacing and thickness are fine for a Ringneck, but would not go any thinner on the wire. Thicker is better, of course, especially if you have a really dedicated bar chewer. For Alexandrine, for example, this bar would not be thick enough for a bird who liked to chew on it.

I keep meaning to put up a really simple post on cage sizes "one of these days" but I haven't got it up yet! If you care, you can see this cage in action in my photo thread, as well as a lot of other photos nobody is interested in.

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=18437

pards007 · Post by **pards007** » Wed Mar 05, 2014 9:56 am

I read your post on that cage and it became part of my long list of cage comparison. As you stated the chewing through issue may become a problem, Storm is 20 days today and the normal trying to get anything in his mouth phase is in effect so I have no idea if he/she will be chewing. Tough for me to believe they can do that but going through tons posts I can see it's true, I find that amazing! My breeder friend talked about the corners of a cage. She had a few IR's almost get through the corner of a slightly less quality cage (she said this was about 20 years ago when she was starting out). She also brought up any and all of the clasps issue in that IRs will figure out a way to open them, heck I watched the parakeets do it in their cage.

There is always someone home in the house so other then sleeping Storm will probably be outside the cage, we do the same thing with our two parakeets, they are trained.

Anywho, thanks so much for your post and you and your cage (more so your cage)

was on my list taken from your older post.

AJPeter · Post by **AJPeter** » Wed Mar 05, 2014 2:14 pm

Last night l was thinking of Mr Bell's cage depth of 19inches and realized that as soon as you put a perch in that only leaves 9 inches on either side and is not enough even for just night use maybe okay as a carrier.

I would suggest Donovan that you use the new cage for Mr Bell and his old one for the new girl because she will still be a baby and save up like mad for another cage like the new one for when Neko is older.

I seem to remember that you bought the cage that Mr Bell was in at the pet shop and they should have warned you he would need a bigger cage as an adult/

Donovan · Post by **Donovan** » Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:06 pm

Mr Bell was 6 months old when I got him and so fully grown other than flight feathers on his wings.

I thought about giving him the new cage just because he's put his time in with me and has technically earned an upgrade. But I don't want him claiming ownership of both cages. So Neko (is a MALE not a Female) will get the new larger cage and Mr Bell will have to wait until another day to get his.

And yeah.. while 19" is technically big enough... it's like asking you to live in your bathroom or kitchen vs the whole house... you can fit inside but it's still too small for living.

pards007 · Post by **pards007** » Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:50 pm

So after looking at an ungodly amount of cages, I was wondering one thing. Some cages have a really deep area between the bottom grate and the pull out pan. I can see the reason for leaving some room for larger pieces of whatever that falls (don't want birdie eating spoiled food) but on some cages it seems excessive (serious waste of real estate space). Any thoughts on why that large of a gap would be needed? I still have quite a few months before a large cage (3 weeks old today!).

AJPeter · Post by **AJPeter** » Thu Mar 06, 2014 2:14 pm

If your bird is an Alexandrine they have very long tail feathers and it would be best to leave the grid out, but if your bird is IRN then likely will have a shorter tail and you could leave the grid in. If you leave the grid in then you can line the bottom with newspaper but if you take the grid out you stand the chance that your bird will get down there and rip the news paper up. Not a good idea in the breeding season.

I have a plastic base and can easily clean up poop with a tissue so keep the cage nice and clean, and l leave the grid out because Billie is an Alexandrine parrot with a long tail.

pards007 · Post by **pards007** » Thu Mar 06, 2014 3:02 pm

That would make sense, I just kept thinking why would you waste those inches, but I was not thinking of the bird standing on the bottom of the cage, I wouldn't.

AJPeter · Post by **AJPeter** » Thu Mar 06, 2014 4:13 pm

The first cage l had was very tall nearly 6 ' and most of the lower portion was not in use, in fact the previous owner tied 3 foot high plywood on all sides. Billie used that cage but the lower part was completely wasted. I was told IRN and Alex like to sit eye level with us.

MissK · Post by **MissK** » Thu Mar 06, 2014 9:29 pm

Pards, we're talking about the air space between the newspaper (or whatever) and the grate where the bird walks, yes?

In my fave cages this distance is 2 inches. In my other cages it's 2", 1.75", 1.5", and 1", with that dimension tending to decrease as the overall size of the cage decreases. Gee, I got a lot of cages, maybe should hold a yard sale!!

Anyway, MY THEORY is that the space needs to increase with the size of the bird, to keep the bird from sticking that wee (or giant) foot into the mess and dragging stuff up to play with. In theory, if not in practice, the bigger the cage, the bigger the bird, the longer the leg.

I suggest my theory should stand until disproven or supplanted by a better theory.

InTheAir · Post by **InTheAir** » Fri Mar 07, 2014 3:02 am

AJPeter wrote:Fair enough!

Wht did you think of the cage l got for Billie, Claire?

I consider Nilas 2 metre long cage too small for him to spend a whole day in. I won't comment on yours.

If an IRNs wingspan is 17-19 inches long (which it is) than keeping him in a 20 inch cage is equais comparable to keeping you in my bathroom. Yes, you can move in there, just make sure you stand in the middle of the room when you do star jumps!
But seriously, a double flight with devider removed should be the minimum standard for anyone who leaves their irn caged all day. The bird should be encouraged to move around and play in it's cage, by means of simulating toys. They like their midday siesta and occasional nanna naps, but they shouldn't be encouraged into a habit of being dormant until the owner is home. They need to have a large, comfortable environment.

If anyone is interested there is a fairly in depth study on psittacula krameri (neonate to fledging) biometrics, incase you want to justify the grate deapth.
It also notes the differences between male and female birds (most of which is within a mm).

Donovan · Post by **Donovan** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 1:17 pm

Would we say 1" bar spacing is safe for an indian ringneck?

Donovan · Post by **Donovan** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:03 pm

new cage for Mr. Bell coming in a few days.
23x22x67
3/4" spacing
This fits my 24" criteria for being able to transfer it into the walk-in cage outside. I think the guard at the bottom will be a problem but i'll come up with a way to not include it during transfer.
this is a 3"-4" upgrade for him. I'm sure he'll hate being sent to his cage as much with this one as he does with his current cage, but seeing him spin around without his tail touching everything will make me feel better.

And for anyone interested, here is an ebay link to a fairly sizable cage at 23x23x44 for just $40. It's not very attractive and I can't imagine a bird could do anything but slide off of the top, but still.. nice price for the dimensions.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/23x23x67-New-Bi ... 258b284c90

AJPeter · Post by **AJPeter** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:20 pm

The seed guard maybe detachable, but if you keep it on it also collects poops. But it is a lovely cage for Mr Bell, ask him if he will take a lodger, l could move in, in a couple of days.

Donovan · Post by **Donovan** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 7:10 pm

The so-called 22" cage won't fit through the door of my walk-in cage outside. I put it together finally today.. I'm a bit disappointed. It's so flimsy. I'm gonna have to find a way to tighten up the cage, plus i'm gonna have to modify the walk-in cage now... make the door wider.. which means rebuilding the frame and the door

MissK · Post by **MissK** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 9:35 pm

Woah, how did I miss those last few posts??

1) Glad you upgraded Mr. Bell a little. That's showing the love!

2) Sorry you are not happy with the new cage. Is return an option? Probably too $$ for shipping, huh?

3) Can it be swapped for one like the new bird's?

4) Instead of rebuild your aviary doorway, can you get Bell to accept traveling in his old cage or a smaller carrier?

5) Something I just thought of-- has the aviary got a foyer? A space between the inside and outside to catch/trap a bird if he tries to exit the cage door with you unauthorized? If the answer is no, then I just changed my opinion of rebuilding the door. When you get to the point of transferring bird #1 in/out when bird #2 is already there, you will need a buffer zone to positively prevent escapes.

Best wishes!

Donovan · Post by **Donovan** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 10:10 pm

Mr. Bell's cage was just ordered today.

New Bird's cage was bought in person and just assembled this evening. I am mainly disappointed in how it's wider than it claims.. by 2 inches.. ..

I'm not taking it back though. I'll just make it work. It's also flimsy but I can fix that too with some pliers I think.. do some bending to a few key points.

The walk-in cage does have a foyer.

Now, transferring the birds to another cage while getting ready for work in the morning just isn't an option. It's hard enough getting Mr. Bell into his cage as it is. He just needs to already be in the cage so i can pick it up and go outside with it.

I still have spare material from when the cage was built so rebuilding the doors should be free at least. I just hope it doesn't turn into having to completely rebuild 2 walls because of it haha..

Anyway, the doors are 24" wide which was fine until tonight when I got curious and tried to move the new cage outside... realized it wouldn't fit.. when I measured it i realized it was 24" wide.. not 22" like it claims........ This likely means that the new cage coming (23" wide) will actually come up to 25" or so..

So, I'm just gonna go for 30" doors... ugh..

MissK · Post by **MissK** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 10:29 pm

What a pain in the patootie! Sorry about that!

If it's that dome top we already saw for Neko, a couple of cable ties will set to rest any fears of it exploding. I bent a few spots, too. The stand is a bit flimsy, to be sure. Donovan, if you don't like it, TAKE IT BACK.

If you put the bird(s) to sleep overnight in a little sleep cage, how would that go?

InTheAir · Post by **InTheAir** » Sat Mar 15, 2014 2:26 am

Sleep cages can be a good idea. When sapphire grows up we will probably be using one to try to discourage breeding drive.
I made a video of putting Sapphire in a travel cage for you. http://youtu.be/RDNxCi-oQnc
Don't worry, it really wasn't much trouble as she had used her travel cage today to go to work with Dave and I hadn't put it away.
It's easier to get her in there on the mornings as she is expecting she may get an adventure and appears as soon as you put the cage on the bench. Our guys always have time out of cages before work.
It took very little trouble to teach her to use it too. I put it on the bench, chucked a couple of her favourite toys in there and some treats and called her to my hand to check it out. She saw the good stuff and went straight in to play. I left the door open and let her play in there a couple times. When she was happily entering and playing I'd close the door and give her a treat. After that we started using it to go to the shower. She loves showers, I imagine Bell would be as happy about using it to get to his aviary.

The real trick is to never get into the situation where you need the bird to go in the cage in a certain time frame while you are training the trick. Any work you need to do with an animal/child/car is guaranteed to take forever if you are in a hurry!
When Dave gets to work he opens the door of her work cage and lines it up to the travel cage door so she can hop into the work cage. When I take her home, I get her to step up and let me restrain her with my other hand to transfer her - the workshop is not safe for birds to fly around in.
Training with positive reinforcement rocks!

Donovan · Post by **Donovan** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 8:39 pm

Putting Mr. Bell to bed at night is more of a negotiation than anything else. I turn out the lights and 20 minutes later he's willing to go to his cage.

Today I made him spend the day in his new cage. This morning before work i made him up a nice bowl of goodies that enticed him to go inside the new cage. He's been going inside to eat, but this time i shut the door on him and so he was in there all day.

But he doesn't seem to understand to go back to that cage at night. I'm trying to ween him off of his old cage, the one that's too small. Do I need to completely remove the old cage so it's not an option anymore? Or just keep gradually working him towards the new cage?... trapping him in it this morning might have been a form of flooding but it was that or let him roam free all day.

Mr. Bell isn't one of those birds that goes into his cage without doing everything he can to avoid it so it's just not as simple as putting him in there. I really have to convince him that the new cage is home. Does he need to spend a few days in that cage without getting out maybe? Surely not.

InTheAir · Post by **InTheAir** » Tue Mar 18, 2014 1:15 am

I very much doubt that leaving him in the cage for a few days will make him like it more. I very much disliked brussel sprouts when I was a child, but was made to eat them anyway. Now I absolutely hate them and haven't even tried them as an adult. I also disliked mushrooms as a child and was told I could pick them out of my meals so I didn't have to eat them. I love them now.

When Nila went through a little phase of not wanting to be in his cage, my boyfriend and I realised we had to make his cage a treat (our guys are out of their cages most of the day every day). He loves foraging, so we would set a heap of toys and puzzles up and show him they were there and he'd go straight in to play. We left the doors open, so he knew he could leave if he wanted to. His attitude to his cage changed quickly. It was never hard to get him into his cage, it was just that he wanted to come out immediately.

Sapphire was harder to get into her cage in the first place, if she didn't want to go there, so we employed the same method plus she gets a treat when she goes into the cage and a treat after the door is closed, plus fun foraging and whatever foot toy she is obsessing over to keep her occupied. She will go in her cage to play or nap now and chews foot toys or perches when she's stuck in there, though she prefers Nilas cage!

Btw I'm thinking of buying Sapphire a new cage, hers was meant to be temporary as we had hoped that she'd move in with Nila. That is not going to happen in the foreseeable future so I'm considering this http://m.ebay.com.au/itm/221357905186
That seems to be the biggest I can afford that has a suitable bar spacing. I thought she may enjoy the shape too. I hate the seed skirt, I'm hoping it's removable!

What do you guys think of it?

MissK · Post by **MissK** » Tue Mar 18, 2014 6:25 am

Donovan ~ If he is tied to the old cage you might try placing it inside the new cage and then take it apart over time.

Claire ~ That's a pretty exciting cage. Dave not up for more carpentry?
Better buy some shin guards if you can't get that seed skirt off!

AJPeter · Post by **AJPeter** » Tue Mar 18, 2014 2:21 pm

When l first got Billie the cage came too, it was big and awkward to move so when l got the new cage it was a lot smaller the bowls were very small but the cage was on wheels, after l asembled the new cage l asked Billie to look inside and quickly put the old one out into the hall.
I have no idea whether she missed it but there was no problem with the new cage she loved the openning top and of a night time she goes in at the right time, when she became hormonal last year and was looking for a nest site l kept her in when l went out of the house, but today l want shopping and left her out she stayed on the outside of the cage all the time l was out of the house about two hours.
So when choosing a new cage, considerations of space, locality, ease of use and cleaning must come high up on the list of what cage to buy.

InTheAir · Post by **InTheAir** » Tue Mar 18, 2014 2:41 pm

MissK wrote:
Claire ~ That's a pretty exciting cage. Dave not up for more carpentry?
Better buy some shin guards if you can't get that seed skirt off!

Dave did suggest the carpentry option, but I pointed out that he said he never wanted to do it again when we finished the last one.

Nilas cage did end up costing atleast as much as that one, possibly a bit more. Though I do find his cage so easy to clean, that's got to be worth the money and days spent building it.
If the seed skirt is not detachable, we have a hack saw or grinder that will modify it to suit us.

AJPeter · Post by **AJPeter** » Tue Mar 18, 2014 4:42 pm

I was thinking Claire that the seed catcher is also a poop catcher with a flat top would Nila stand on the top and poop over the edge? It is a remarkable low price, with wheels it will be easy to clean under and around the cage.

Donovan · Post by **Donovan** » Tue Mar 18, 2014 7:34 pm

Alright, so tonight instead of giving Mr. Bell his supper in a little plate on top of his old cage I put it in the food bowl of the new cage. After protesting a bit he went in and I shut the door on him. He immediately lost interest in the food and just wanted out. I messed up and didn't wait on him to actually start eating so there was no real reward factor.

So he paced around back and forth in the cage. So i figured out he was happy enough to take his favorite treat which is peanuts through the bars, so i gave him bite after bite of peanut through the bars, then I let him back out of the cage and moved the food bowl to a place he felt safe.

I think this is the right method for getting him into that cage. Just brief sessions full of all his favorite foods. And no I didn't deprive him of food before hand. He is just always anxious for his plate of real food every night.

I'll do it again tomorrow but next time i'll wait until he starts actually eating the food before shutting him in. Or should I not be shutting the door on him at all?

And btw, InTheAir, that's an awesome cage. Have you ordered it already or still considering?

MissK · Post by **MissK** » Tue Mar 18, 2014 8:10 pm

I think I would try this:
food in
bird in
high value treat in
door stays open

for a while, until he is ok to go in and out on his own. Then I would go:
food in
bird in
shut door
high value treat in
open door

for a while, and then I would go to
food in
bird in
shut door
high value treat in
open door
high value treat in
shut door
high value treat in
open door
etc

and then just increase the amount of time the door is shut as well as randomize if it opens right away or stays shut longer.
If the bird shows distress at the door being shut, then you went too fast. Of course, being used to a lot of freedom, as he is, Bell may not appreciate being shut in at all, but if you let him build up to it you might be able to head off immediately and firmly hating the cage. At least, I hope that's how it will go!!

InTheAir · Post by **InTheAir** » Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:35 pm

I think you should do what missk says.

I haven't decided on a cage yet, that was the best option so far. Why are bird cages all so small, unless they have massive gaps between bars? It's silly.

Donovan · Post by **Donovan** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 2:22 pm

conditioning mr bell to the new cage (new cage A) is going well enough..... so yesterday I received another cage (new cage B) FedEx.... Today while putting it together I had the little bag of nuts and bolts on the floor next to me.. Mr Bell was extremely interested in what I was doing. He flew down to the floor and attempted to steal the little bag of nuts and bolts. He managed to fly with it a little, just enough to dump out all the hardware much of which fell into an air vent in the floor... good times.. luckily i retrieved everything.
Was this sabotage?

MissK · Post by **MissK** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 4:09 pm

Hahaha!

Now you have to get him his own stainless steel bolt with nuts to play with!

AJPeter · Post by **AJPeter** » Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:01 pm

That's life! InTheAir l buy a shirt 18 collar size but the shirt arms are taliored for a gorilla. Big gaps big bird.

SkyeBerry · Post by **SkyeBerry** » Tue Mar 25, 2014 3:25 am

Hello...I have been very interested in this thread as I have been considering new cages for my birds. Their current homes are above MissK's recommendations & I am not rich but they are only 4yrs so any cage is going to last them a long time. MissK I have looked - on line - and your double flight is one I have almost ordered several times. Any cons? Is there any difference between this and the double wide A&E cage? I have read the HQ is made by King, any knowledge of this? Any problems with the powder coating over time? I sometimes think I should wait & buy the anodized aluminum. Do you think the added expense is worth it? Anybody have experience with this material?
If you could go bigger, what would you consider? I have the IRN & a sun conure. They are usually housed together but I am keeping a close out out for any change in interactions because of hormones/maturity etc.

IntheAir - Claire? - I like that cage but are corner cages of any concern? Anyone?

Also, not sure if I saw the recommended bar spacing???? I have read 3/4" is sometimes too big for some ringnecks. I have been trying to find 5/8". My current cages are 5/8", but I think the bars themselves are too thin/flimsy - and my sun conure is becoming a bar chewer. I do not care if it supposed to be non-toxic. I do not want him ingesting anything that is not proper food.

I have considered making cages but I cannot believe how many 'aviary panels' that are sold are made out of galvanized aluminum???? It seems to me this should be illegal. This is toxic right - hot dipped or not?

Mary

MissK · Post by **MissK** » Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:19 am

Mary, someplace I think I made a post about my cage for SkyesCrew, in which I mentioned the drawbacks I could imagine. They are not huge in my daily life, as you might imagine, or else I would be complaining. Only thing I can think of right now is 1) the place on the bottom where the divider would go gets messy and is a tad hard to clean and 2) only the main doors have locks. I saw fit to "lock" them with various devices.

I don't know the difference between makers of look-alikes. I think I would probably not notice much difference in person either. I don't know about the relationship of various cage makers, either. I can say my cages are looking 100% brand new, with regards to the finish. They are, what, like two years old? I can say I remain unfavourably impressed with Prevue-Hendryx products. Hendryx was top notch in my mother's day, not so much now.

ALSO, very important distinction, while I have stated my opinions on the smallest cage reasonable for IRN, I do not in any way truly recommend an IRN should be kept in a cage smaller than mine. I really don't. I just feel to go smaller than maybe 24" square is clear abuse, and 24" square is no prize either. It's just that when you tell a person they need to use a cage that is exponentially bigger than what they want to use, they frequently close their mind and decide to just go with what they have since they are not going to go with the biggest. Suggesting something more mainstream people will accept, in my opinion, upgrades birds literally to something they can live with. Compromise. A bird in a cage that small has got to come out a lot. Heck, a bird in a cage the size of mine has to come out a lot, too. Just, that's the biggest I could go at the time. At the same time, I feel it is essential that the bird be caged for a length of time each day - not just left to roam the house - so it can retain the skill of living in a cage. Ability to live in a cage is essential sometimes, as life throws us curves, and also in the event of us having to rehome the bird. I feel that I am *very* flexible in accommodating the needs of pets, and even I was shy to take on a bird who lived uncaged. If you really knew me, that would say a lot more to you.

If I were going to get a larger cage I might consider the version of this cage that is taller - and more than twice the price. Other than that, I would be looking into building something myself, or maybe hiring a better carpenter to do it for me. In general I am wanting a larger front-to-back size and I think this is where custom looks necessary. If I were going to ask a cage maker to build one with the smaller bar space just for me, might as well go whole hog and build my dream cage, you know?

The "dream cage" for me would be building in a space in my house ten feet long, four feet deep, and ceiling high. That's the space I have available. The other option would be just bird-proofing the spare bedroom and changing the door for a screen door, letting him roam or be in a living room cage when I'm home and putting in the bedroom there while I work. However, I don't see anything like that happening any time soon, especially since he *can't* be housed with my other birds.

I could express still more opinions, but gotta go to work now.

SkyeBerry · Post by **SkyeBerry** » Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:59 pm

MissK...work? You mean that other thing we do so we can spend money on the birds?

I'll look for the other post. I understood what you meant about size and where you are coming from. My hat's off to you moderators and your need for diplomacy etc especially when the written word, and an occasional picture, is all you have to relate an idea...which may not always be what someone wants to hear.

Your ideas for a cage sound like mine. I like the double side by side but my birds do like to climb so I feel it is not tall enough. As most of us have found out, large cages mean larger bar spacing. Still don't think anyone answered that yet - 5/8" or 3/4"? Likely best to use 'common' sense. I prefer to be safer than sorry and go for the 5/8" but with the thicker bars on the larger cages it seems to create such a wall between the birds and the rest of the room. The inside of the cage also appears darker and I do not like that . I would also prefer not to shine a light directly into the cage. I meant to get larger cages long ago, but my birds are out and supervised most of the day - well, I may have been sleeping but we were in the same room together. Luckily, my two have remained buddies and can happily explore inside and outside of each others cages. From what I can tell, and droppings are such a giveaway - hee,hee -they remained on/in the cages unless I was awake and then we interacted on my bed. And that is why I have a difficult time picturing them in a cage all day. At this point, the hope is I will get back to work some day. And although I have left them in the room with the door shut, while I have been away for short periods, I am not comfortable allowing that for an entire day.

I have a split level entry home which means the basement has regular windows and is submerged into the ground about 3.5'. I removed the floor in one room (~12'x15') and gave that to my 7 lovebirds. That space and the ability to fly has enabled some previously very unhappy, poorly socialized, ill tempered birds to become wonderful pets. Of course I removed a large portion of wall and created a window with coated wire so the birds were not isolated from the rest of the living area. I must confess, however, that I am tired of scrubbing the walls and floors. I have considered a steamer but am concerned about aerosolizing 'germs' versus killing them. Hospitals use machines that produce water vapour not steam. The vapour is much hotter. Of course, these machines are more $. So I have been looking at alternate wall coverings. Fiberglass sheets, laminate, tile, acrylic or other plastics. Oh and a floor drain, so of course a water source near by. How nice to be able to walk in and use a hose.

My mortgage is low enough that I could add money for renovations, but I have also considered moving in the next five years. So many decisions with so many things currently up in the air. If anyone has experience creating a room like I have discussed, or a large cage, I would like to hear about it - see picture? After this post I will look for threads regarding the same.

InTheAir - Claire - I tried to find your cage on a US or Canadian site - I am in British Columbia - but could not locate it. I did not see the manufacturer on your link. Would you please provide it?

MissK · Post by **MissK** » Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:35 pm

Hi Mary

First, I'm not a Mod - perish the thought!

I do strive for live and let live, though I have ruffled a few feathers only once or twice with expressing thoughts maybe some did not want to hear.

If you think your birds will appreciate the climbing space in the extra tall double wide, then by all means, pass the shorter one by. My bird is not the world's greatest fan of climbing, but I still feel he would enjoy the bigger. I wish I could have gotten it for him. Perhaps in a few years, when the money has grown back after my elderly dogs have gone. Elderly dogs do seem to cost a penny or two..... Or maybe I can build him into the side of the living room as I want to do. Unlike you, I don't really plan to sell the house if I can avoid it. YOU should not be customizing the house for birds if you plan to roll out in a few. It'll take some time to plan and execute the modifications, and then when everybody's getting good and settled, you'll move! Don't do that. Better to build something you can take apart and bring with you.

Bars, thickness and spacing- my bars are 3mm. This is the thinnest you should even think of, and while I suspect it's Ringneck proof, there may be some overachievers out there waiting to prove me wrong. Spacing, I think 3/4 might be OK. My spacing is 1/2", and the cage is actually designed for smaller birds. My travel cage, which we have *never* used, has 3/4" bar spacing. Sigh. I guess I'm going to have to put him in there after all, so I can see how it goes. I paid 40 bucks for that thing, so we may as well use it. I've just been using an 18" square cage for travel, since he came home for the first time in it and he already knew it, and it was just easier for me. That travel cage is for emergency. I want everyone to note I am not saying I will train the bird to go in the travel cage. There was some talk of that and I am JUST too lazy, too got other things going on. We'll see if I can get it out of the closet for starters.......

SkyeBerry · Post by **SkyeBerry** » Wed Mar 26, 2014 8:06 am

Hello Miss K - I think I found the post you were referring to - the date is June 25/13 - in it you wrote "I was surprised to see the stand is actually part of the cage - cannot be removed without disassembling the cage - and part of the structural reinforcement." Really? That is surprising. So I guess you just clean it on the spot. Do you ever disassemble it to really clean those difficult areas and thoroughly disinfect it in the tub.

This is the cage I have been using. http://www.kingscages.com/ProductDetail ... FXL%203221 There are 2 doors but it is not divided.
It is half the size of your cage. 32" wide, 21"deep, Inside height is 35 inches ½ inch bar spacing, 3 mm bar thickness. The top can be lifted off however.

I have considered buying some more and putting them side by side but there would be a space were the stands meet because it extends past the cage edge. Another option would be to build a frame with a melamine back and then use the panels from two cages for sides and the front. The front would consist of the front and back panels. But it hardly seems worth the effort when for not much more I can buy the double wide and still have the original.

I am including a link to your cage for easy ref. http://www.birdscomfort.com/doubleflight_bird_cage.html
I looked for the double flight with extra height but only found Macaw cages with either 1" or 1.2" bare spacing. Would you be able to supply a link to the cage you were referring to?

Have you heard of this company? http://cornerslimited.com/flight.html If you look at the client list it is impressive. But what I do not understand is that all these cage panels are galvanized and therefore toxic. Why would all these places use this product?

MissK · Post by **MissK** » Wed Mar 26, 2014 10:00 am

Hi Mary,

Really quick - I break it down from time to time and wash all the parts in the shower. (Don't tell my mom!) I laughed when you said you read I was surprised and you were surprised to read that and surprised the thing is attached. Maybe someone else will read those previous and be surprised, too. Don't know why I think that's so funny, but I do.

I also have a vacuum that blows like an air compressor if you plug the hose in the other end. That helps, along with the long, skinny attachment for radiators. I read one time that somebody just put something over that space, some plastic or something, and it worked for them. I planned to try that, but, you guessed it, lazy again!

I also had the thought of removing the end panel of both my cages and customizing them into one long one. But, like you, I really want depth and height more , plus Budgies are using that other cage. I don't have a link to the high cage but I'll look over the weekend. My next two days are taken up with doctor stuff and mom stuff.

Don't get any of that galvanized stuff. I read that you could wash it to get the toxic powder off but someone, maybe Melika, advised me that more powder would happen, so it's not really an option. Maybe you could get it and have it powder coated, but I would (if it were me) just rather get the proper stuff to start with. Post in the breeders section for help on building supplies. I think some of them tend to get home brew with their aviaries.

I saw your cage. Once you upgrade you can either sell this cage, use it for a sleep cage, use it for outings to the patio, put it on a different floor of your house, box it for transition during the one-day move to new house, even place it somewhere off site that your bird might visit a lot. For instance, I used to keep a XL dog crate at my mom's house, for when I brought the dogs over. It was really helpful.

I did not chase the last link on the page. Great, now I have like ten minutes to get ready for work. Why do I *DO* this to myself!!

SkyeBerry · Post by **SkyeBerry** » Thu Mar 27, 2014 3:52 am

Hi Miss K...just to be clear...and this may not be...maybe you should make sure you have had some coffee first

I was not surprised that you were surprised, when you discovered the cage portion was attached to the stand. I was surprised, as you were, that the cage is attached to the stand

[Never noticed this guy before] . Regardless, of why we laugh, IMO, the more reasons you can find to laugh (as long as not at someone else's expense) the healthier you will probably be. Here's to laughing each and every day.

As much as I appreciate you responses, please, please do not feel you need to answer anything I post when you are pressed for time. If I am that concerned that I need an answer 'right now' or if it is an immediate health concern etc, I will call my vet. If I feel it needs immediate attention or they feel it is an emergency, they will allow me to just show up and appreciate the warning I am on my way. And regarding health concerns, I graduated as an Animal Health Technologist. I did the anesthetics, x-rays, minor surgeries at the clinics. I did get some experience with birds at work & combined with my lovebird experience (12yrs + I think) I am pretty comfortable dealing with that side of parrot care. Of course, if I write something that needs to be corrected as it is wrong/dangerous etc, I hope as soon as it is recognized, someone will respond or contact a mod to have it removed.

No worries. I won't buy galvanized. I like the way you can customize your own cages using their panels but what's the point if you are going to kill your bird???

I was so excited when someone recommended this company. What a disappointment.

I just find it bizarre to see a lot of their clients are zoos. Their are also some parrot rescues that use their cages although I am not sure they are listed. Things that make you go 'HUH??'

Melika · Post by **Melika** » Thu Mar 27, 2014 12:48 pm

MissK wrote:Don't get any of that galvanized stuff. I read that you could wash it to get the toxic powder off but someone, maybe Melika, advised me that more powder would happen...

Right. The powder is simply what happens as it oxidises. Basically it's rust, but in the form of zinc oxide. It isn't considered a danger unless ingested. So if you have birds like finches for example, which do not 'tongue' the bars of the cage, it shouldn't be harmful. If the aviary is such that the parrots rarely if ever feel the need to climb on the side of the cage, I can't see the harm in that either. But it would have to be a VERY large aviary (probably would not fit indoors) for that to happen with a larger parrot.

It's not exactly a common cause of death as far as we know, unless a piece of zinc metal is actually ingested. We just know it can be deadly over time if the toxicity level builds up enough.

Also, before we bash zoos for using them, remember that the cages aren't just for birds. And like I said, for a large enough cage the actual exposure would be limited.

Donovan · Post by **Donovan** » Thu Mar 27, 2014 6:31 pm

What are some examples of this potentially toxic bird cage material?

MissK · Post by **MissK** » Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:56 pm

Galvanized steel - it's common, actually, steel treated with zinc to prevent rusting. It's that metal with the light, bright, sort of textured finish used for, for example, outdoor feed pans and buckets for livestock. It loses the shiny over time and use. You can probably cruise your local Walmart and find some in the pet dish section. The zinc part is toxic to our birds, and if they ingest enough, they will get poisoned (just like us). I suspect all our pets would suffer from overexposure to zinc. I wish everybody would save their galvanized pans for changing the oil in their car and not for feed or water to pets.

Wikipedia entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanization
close-up image of texture of hot dip galvanized steel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot-dip_galvanization
more than you ever cared to know about zinc and humans: http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Zinc-H ... fessional/

My galvanized steel anecdote: Some may know I keep the world's most overindulged pair of mutts. I love them like I love my own blood. Once upon a time I was in the feed store looking for water buckets for these mutts. They only had galvanized buckets, and I knew nothing of galvanized steel. I picked one up and, as I touched it, something in my gut just said "Nope. Not this one. Not for *my* puppies," and so I put it down and shopped elsewhere till I found stainless. That felt right, so I bought two and over a decade later, they are in exactly the same brand new condition as when I got them.

SkyeBerry · Post by **SkyeBerry** » Mon Mar 31, 2014 11:42 pm

In my post above I included a link to cornerslimited.com. They use aluminum frames but galvanized aluminum wire. Galvanized aluminum is a dull grey and almost looks powdery. Think of the old metal mop bucket on wheels. They have 36" x 21" x 14" - small breeder cages - they show lovebird's in the cage and they will definitely be climbing. Part of the problem is galvanized zinc will form little globs where the wires intersect - not as bad with hot dipping. Sometimes these break off and are ingested. Other times a point is formed and these points can pierce the bird's skin.

I was not meaning to bash zoos. But I did look through a lot of the site and the zoos often used these cages for holding cages and they were not large cages. They also said they were used for birds. But as MissK mentioned, this stuff is toxic period, and not just to birds or people. It does however need to accumulate, so maybe the zoos use the cages because they are only temporarily used.

My point to MissK was that I loved the idea of these cages, customizing, and how they went together without screws. I was disappointed because they did not meet my needs.

Melika · Post by **Melika** » Tue Apr 01, 2014 7:13 am

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound as if I was censuring you.

Taking things out of context happens a lot on forums, and to people reading, they might think the galvinization industry is horrid and should be stopped- toxic to all! But perhaps they would be forgetting how much waste would be produced with metal rusting so quickly, and how much more pollution and damage to the Earth would occur from the need to produce more metals to replace the ones rusting away. It isn't as if we have an unlimited supply of stainless steel. It is a useful process.

My chicken coop utilises hardware cloth (aka rat-screen) to keep predators out at night. Fortunately I won't have to worry about it rusting away into nothing for a while. The majority of large parrot breeders also use galvanised metal for their rather sizable aviaries. If I built an aviary, I would likely use galvanised. Yes, zinc has been proven to be fatal/toxic. Zinc toxicity seems to be primarily from parts of toys or chips of paint causing a lethal zinc toxicity or the use of galvanised dishes. But from what I can find, galvanised wire has very little to no involvement in these instances- in fact it is more a supposition: "we know zinc can be toxic and can build up over time, so maybe this wire might contribute but we don't actually know because there is no evidence". It is more of a caution. Be informed and make your own decision based on that information.

I did have a thought that since they pride themselves on customisation, they might not be limited to galvanised metals if asked?

SkyeBerry · Post by **SkyeBerry** » Tue Apr 01, 2014 8:20 pm

Melika - Gosh no! I did not feel censored at all. I realized you were correct and it would be easy to think that I was possibly bashing zoos without further explanation on my part. And I agree, galvanized metals have a lot of benefits. The problems occur when they are used inappropriately or unknowingly. I considered mentioning zinc on metal chain and snaps etc but decided not to go there last night. Many finch people I know use the hardware cloth for their aviaries for years with no known problems. I have considered it for my finches but will likely use pvc coated wire for its aesthetics. Unless I can find someone who can sell be a few square feet of ss mesh and I would combine it with some plexiglass...all this for the cage I will likely never build.

And if I ever do get chickens, which is not entirely out of the question, I too will likley be using galvanized chicken wire for the coop.

You wrote "...from what I can find, galvanised wire has very little to no involvement in these instances- in fact it is more a supposition: "we know zinc can be toxic and can build up over time, so maybe this wire might contribute but we don't actually know because there is no evidence" " Do you have a link to such articles? I have been tempted to build a long narrow aviary - from GAW or even PVC coasted chain link fence - for some flighted exercise outside. Something that would be used for just a brief time and not necessarily everyday. With an assistant or a training stand or two the birds could fly a longer distance than in the house and get some sunshine.

My concern with parrots is they do live long enough for the zinc to accumulate from various sources so why add to that problem if you can avoid it. Or like you said, at least, 'be informed and make your own decision based on that information." .

MissK · Post by **MissK** » Tue Apr 01, 2014 8:38 pm

My two cents on this would be that birds like finches aren't going to be all over the wire, with beaks and feet, like parrots will. Secretly, it kills me that I bend over backwards to give the parakeets room to fly and every exciting natural branch and vine, so many places to be, and they still climb the walls of the cage. It hurts my feelings! It also makes me feel bad because I have this idea that if the bird is on the wall then the cage isn't big enough. My cages are as big as they can be, for me, and plenty bigger than many. Still. Birds on the wall.

SkyeBerry · Post by **SkyeBerry** » Tue Apr 01, 2014 8:56 pm

Ahhhh, MissK don't feel bad. What kills me is I give my lovebirds a 12' x 15' room with several windows, and all they do to repay my generosity is poop on the walls!

MissK · Post by **MissK** » Tue Apr 01, 2014 9:29 pm

At least I only have one bird pooping on walls - my Canary.

Do you think they're trying to send a message with this???????

Donovan · Post by **Donovan** » Wed Apr 02, 2014 7:24 am

They'll always climb the walls. In my big walk-in cage I keep a few perches around and always some large tree branch inside but ultimately my bird's favorite place seems to be a piece of board that makes up part of the wall. He can hardly even fit on it. His body is pressed up against the wire and he looks pretty awkward so don't worry about your budgies climbing the walls. It's just something they like to do.

AJPeter · Post by **AJPeter** » Wed Apr 02, 2014 1:01 pm

Bird on a wire,
if you want poop on the walls get a Mynah bird! If you do not want poop on the walls do not get a Mynah bird.

SkyeBerry · Post by **SkyeBerry** » Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:57 pm

MissK...if it is a message, I need to find an interpreter quickly because it is obviously something they think I really need to know!

Donovan - you can always trade that Mynah bird for a cage of finches. Then you can have poop on your walls, ceilings, counters...I swear they are having some sort of shooting contest.

I just read this post to a friend and her two cents - "so, it is a crap shoot where it is going to end up?"

Melika · Post by **Melika** » Thu Apr 03, 2014 6:50 am

"Be informed and make your own decision based on that information."

I thought this was a good suggestion for galvanized wire, thoroughly and carefully brushing with a stiff wire brush to remove any 'chunks':
http://europepmc.org/abstract/MED/16243 ... qOPNi4m.20

A common article I referenced many times over the years:
http://www.birdsnways.com/wisdom/ww14eiii.htm

A blend of study and anecdote:
http://www.windycityparrot.com/Zinc_Par ... icity.html

This is probably the most well-balanced article on zinc I have read:
https://companionparrotonline.com/zinc.html

And this is a good research paper:
http://www.thebirdschool.com/parrot-hea ... m-fiction/

I guess the way I feel about it, is that the zinc toxicity scare is overplayed. While it certainly can be toxic, with the right bird that likes to chew on its cage and chew/eat non-food items, it isn't nearly the rampant parrot killer presented in many articles on the web. Some vets have even leapt on the train, asking everyone to test for zinc, even though serum levels of zinc don't give an accurate indication of anything at this time- in fact the samples are likely tainted. However, the scare might save some birds if it makes the parront more cautious and observant than they would be otherwise.

*It should be noted the zinc is able to be eliminated from the body but constant ingestion of it would obviously not allow the homeostatic process of the body to work properly in getting rid of the extra.
** Suspected case of zinc toxicity from plain aviary wire (the rest I've found were from paint and powder coatings on cage wires): http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.1647/1 ... 2.0.CO%3B2