Giving a treat in spite of bluffing....

Moderator: Mods

Post Reply
pattiB
Posts: 139
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 11:10 am

Giving a treat in spite of bluffing....

Post by pattiB »

I have a question. And thank you in advance for responding :D
My Gracie is going thru a NOT SO BAD at all bluffing phase. I've had her about 5 days now. She is 13 weeks old. She seems to do the lunge thing in the morning when I start to work with her, getting her to come out of her cage. She does it only once or so. Then she's good for pretty much the rest of the day. My question is, I know I'm supposed to ignore this bluffing stuff. But when I have a treat and offer it to her, and she does the bluffing lunge, I should ignore it. But then I wonder, I ignore it but still give her the treat. Am I reinforcing the bluff? Giving her a treat even though she acted that way? Ready for some input.
I don't think this is a major thing with her. She's doing so awesome with us! The only "bluff" she does is when I first begin the process of letting her out.
What I do is first sit and talk to her, while she's still in the her cage. Then I show her I have some good treats. She's VERY curious about them. She might lunge just once when I offer thru the cage. I dont respond at all. Then I open her door and put her stand right outside her cage. She comes out very willingly, no problem, and then takes the treat I have. Then the rest of the day is just fine. Normal getting used to her new home stuff. Thanks!
Skyes_crew
Posts: 1946
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:49 pm
Location: Hawaii

Re: Giving a treat in spite of bluffing....

Post by Skyes_crew »

I'm assuming you have a DNA'd female. If that is the case...welcome to the world of cage territoriality. :wink: the term bluffing is thrown around too much in my opinion. What Gracie is doing sounds like normal female behavior. But you are correct in ignoring it. Instead of putting the stand at the door to the cage, offer your arm with the treat just behind your arm and see if she will step up on to your arm. If she goes to beak you, do not pull away. It will just reinforce the behavior. I read your other thread and I tried to find a minute to respond today...busy day lol. I wanted to tell you that you are doing just fine and to relax. Do what feels natural. We all make mistakes. thankfully ringnecks are pretty forgiving. At least mine are :D
I am owned by my birds...and I wouldn't have it any other way :D

Image
MissK
Posts: 3011
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2012 3:46 pm
Location: Baltimore, Maryland, U.S.A.

Re: Giving a treat in spite of bluffing....

Post by MissK »

Mine too, if you have a relaxed time frame. I thought that behaviour sounded unlike what I've read about bluffing - bird so nasty other birds stay away. Honestly, it sounded like just testing to me, and it would make sense. New bird, new people, new place. Why wouldn't she be a little defensive?

If Rocky does that (and he sometimes does, if I have surprised him, shorted him on sleep, etc) I simply move or block, speak nicely, and come back with a treat. It hasn't turned him into an attacker. Sometimes I lose my head and try to offer him a treat while he's on his sleep perch, the one spot I vow never to bother him. He may threaten or strike at me, but more often just moves away. And then I tell myself, "well, that's what you get for bothering him there. Cut it out!"

Of course Gracie is a wee new girlie baby, and Rocky is a big ole guy. I consider him to be in school, though, always learning how to do what he does, getting tests, making mistakes, moving on. Excuse me, I feel some proud gushing coming on.
-MissK
TimVioletIRN
Posts: 24
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 4:53 pm

Re: Giving a treat in spite of bluffing....

Post by TimVioletIRN »

I have a question to piggy back what was asked earlier. My IRN is exhibiting the same cage territorial behavior. This happens most often when she's on her sleeping soft perch at the top of her cage. My question is, should I reach for her anyway, even though I know she will bite me and endure it and keep doing it to show her I should be able to reach for her at any time? Or should I not reach for when I know she will bite me. This would contribute to the cage territorial behavior though, right? If she bites me and I make her step up anyway, that should help? I also am not sure what I should do to not reinforce her biting. I know some mentioned not even letting them bite you, but is that what the majority thinks or can you offer different or same advice?

Here is a picture of her on her sleeping perch. She hasn't been DNA'd but I'm thinking more and more everyday that she's female. She does not bite when she's not on her cage, when she's on hand or on other places, unless there's a toy she's lunging at viciously and is still puffed up and eyes pinned.

Thanks in advance for any help.
Attachments
photo copy 4.JPG
photo copy 4.JPG (85.85 KiB) Viewed 3100 times
Skyes_crew
Posts: 1946
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:49 pm
Location: Hawaii

Re: Giving a treat in spite of bluffing....

Post by Skyes_crew »

Please do not Disturb...Sleeping

That should be a rule you should always follow. The sleep perch is a no no spot for you. Whether she's actually sleeping or not. It's her safe place. You also would benefit more by coaxing her to step up, rather than forcing her to do so. Negative reinforcement can have some lasting bad side effects on birds. I also must point out....get that bird some toys lol. Make her cage look like Disney world and rotate often. It will minimize the territory problems. :D
I am owned by my birds...and I wouldn't have it any other way :D

Image
TimVioletIRN
Posts: 24
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 4:53 pm

Re: Giving a treat in spite of bluffing....

Post by TimVioletIRN »

Ok. Thanks for the advice. I do have some more toys for her but they're in a different place. She likes to play on my coffee table with her playstand and she has several toys there that she is in the process of shredding. I just rotated in the toys that are in her cage right now. I'll get more soon.
I will try not to reach for her then when she's on her sleeping perch. When I walk over to her cage, she'll often run over to the perch. It's kind of funny.
Skyes_crew
Posts: 1946
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:49 pm
Location: Hawaii

Re: Giving a treat in spite of bluffing....

Post by Skyes_crew »

I'm sorry if I seemed judgmental. That wasn't my intention. I completely understand that she plays elsewhere. The point of filling the cage with toys and forage items is so that she doesn't have the opportunity to become territorial over one specific thing. With so few choices, she's going to protect what little she has in there. That's all I was trying to say :D
I am owned by my birds...and I wouldn't have it any other way :D

Image
InTheAir
Posts: 2040
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:24 pm

Re: Giving a treat in spite of bluffing....

Post by InTheAir »

Some nice bark covered branches are great favourites with our bird.

I find another strategy to combat grumpy bird syndrome is to provide a distraction before you get an aggressive response. If you really need birdy to move or step up from somewhere you know she doesn't want your hand target her to a different perch before you ask her to step up. Stuff like that....
TimVioletIRN
Posts: 24
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 4:53 pm

Re: Giving a treat in spite of bluffing....

Post by TimVioletIRN »

hey Skyes_crew,
Thanks for your response. I didn't view it as judgmental. I just didn't want you to think that's all she has. I'm going to try putting more things in there and see how she does. I haven't bothered her while she's on her sleeping perch and I'll try to leave her be or coax her off of it before trying to get her. My room mate who doesn't spend much time with her, can pet her on her neck while she's there on her sleeping perch and she seems to like it, but she's not so fond of it when I try to do it, there or other locations (coffee table, bed etc) but if he has just done it, then she'll let me do it.
I got her ok off the top of her cage today with no problem and she was great while she was with me, but I let her play on my coffee table and she was chewing on the wooden side of her stand for awhile and i came over to her and she wasn't chewing and I reached for her and she nailed me and didn't let go right away, so I reached over with the other hand and made her step up. I'm not really sure why she nailed me there, but it must be the same territorial behavior, since that's where she often plays.

Patti,

Thanks! I'll try that, as well. I did a version of that earlier this morning to get her off the cage.
Skyes_crew
Posts: 1946
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:49 pm
Location: Hawaii

Re: Giving a treat in spite of bluffing....

Post by Skyes_crew »

Again...not being judgmental here. But is it possible you are being too forward and domineering towards her? Birds, especially IRN's, like to believe that they are making the choices. They don't like to be handled all of the time. They are not an overly affectionate type of bird either. My suggestion would be to maybe back off for a few days and let her do her own thing. You may have to start at square one again and rebuild a trusting bond with her. Start with treating good behaviors and coaxing her in to stepping up on her own. Forcing a bird to bend to your will is most likely what is causing the negative bite response.
I am owned by my birds...and I wouldn't have it any other way :D

Image
TimVioletIRN
Posts: 24
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 4:53 pm

Re: Giving a treat in spite of bluffing....

Post by TimVioletIRN »

Thanks for the honest advice. I was trying to discern that. I was wondering if that might be the case. I have been trying to spend more time just sitting near her cage. I was afraid I wasn't handling her enough and that's the reason she was acting this way. The reason I've thought that is because I don't spend much time handling her. She plays most of the time in/on her cage or on the playstand and I pick her up here every now and then when I'm home but probably isn't 15 minutes total time that I'm holding her because she seems to get bored just sitting on my hand or on my shoulder, so I let her go to her playstand or her cage when she seems to want to, which is anytime we're near it. So that's why I was thinking I wasn't spending enough time actually handling her.
So maybe I need to just stop picking her up and wait for her to want to be picked up? And just spend more time near her cage talking to her. I knew going into this that ringnecks don't like to be handled all the time and aren't very affectionate, and I appreciate the reminder. :) I'm just going to try to look at things differently and not be so intent on getting her to step up if/when she doesn't want to.
Does any of that help? I really appreciate your communicating with me about this. She hasn't been with me even a month yet, and I would like to do this right.

Thanks!
InTheAir
Posts: 2040
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:24 pm

Re: Giving a treat in spite of bluffing....

Post by InTheAir »

Getting your bird too used to spending time on you can be a double edged sword... it is very nice to have a bird that is capable of independence.

To get her to want to spend more time with you, you can try giving her toys and treats when she is hanging out with you. For example, have her favourite foot toys on hand while she is near you. Or set yourself down next to her play stand with a plate of carrot sticks to eat and share pieces with her when she takes an interest.

I live with a flighted irn, so the only way to do stuff with him is to make myself the most attractive and fun proposition in the world at that moment. I like to use trick training as a way of doing that.
Admittedly, the first few weeks we had our irn we stepped him out of the cage and let him do what ever he liked once he was loose. Because we are the only social stimulus available it didn't take long for him to start flying over to us for amusement. We would reward him with treats and toys every time.
Definitely don't force her to do anything, if she feels cornered she will probably defend herself by biting.

I don't know if you have tried any trick training with your bird, if you want any tips or links let me know.


Regards,

Claire

edit: auto correct
Last edited by InTheAir on Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
TimVioletIRN
Posts: 24
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 4:53 pm

Re: Giving a treat in spite of bluffing....

Post by TimVioletIRN »

Thanks Claire!

I haven't tried any trick training yet, but I do plan on starting on that at some point. She spends the majority of her time on/in her cage playing with her toys and preening herself. We had a really good day yesterday. I did some errands and I just let her come over to me either on her own or by coaxing her with a treat and I praised her and gave her treats regularly. She was very well behaved. I think that was the trick, to not try to force her to step up.

Thanks for the helpful info. And sure, if you have some links that would be great. I don't want to bother you with asking too much, but if there are some tips you have right off hand, that would be great as well.


Thank you also to skyes_crew, Missk and Pattib. :D
InTheAir
Posts: 2040
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:24 pm

Re: Giving a treat in spite of bluffing....

Post by InTheAir »

Np. Does your bird have any favourite treats? I find sunflower seeds are a winner, but each bird has it's own taste.

I started with the turn around trick, but I think target training is possibly a better starting point.
http://m.youtube.com/#/user/GoodBirdInc ... oodBirdInc <-- I really like Barbara Heidenreichs work. I can't load the video on target training from my phone at the moment, I'll just recommend it and trust it is as good as her other videos!

Regards,
Claire
Skyes_crew
Posts: 1946
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:49 pm
Location: Hawaii

Re: Giving a treat in spite of bluffing....

Post by Skyes_crew »

Good job Tim! You're off to a great start :D
I am owned by my birds...and I wouldn't have it any other way :D

Image
TimVioletIRN
Posts: 24
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 4:53 pm

Re: Giving a treat in spite of bluffing....

Post by TimVioletIRN »

Thanks Claire! I will look at those and get started here soon. So far, I've only ever given her one peanut but she loved it. I regularly give her pieces of walnut as a treat and that seems to work well. My favorite nut is pecan, but she doesn't like it as much as I do, lol.
I introduced her to peanut butter yesterday. She thought it icky at first and shook it all over the place and then subsequently loved it.

Yesterday I added a couple of other toys I had for rotation into her cage so she has 4 in their now and went and bought 4 more to rotate out. And I'm gonna go buy some more soon for backup. $50 goes quick in toy money :lol:
Skyes_crew
Posts: 1946
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:49 pm
Location: Hawaii

Re: Giving a treat in spite of bluffing....

Post by Skyes_crew »

Yes it does lol. For $50 you can go on ebay and buy toy making parts and make twice as many bird toys yourself. I get tired of spending $30 on a toy only to watch it be destroyed in 15 min by my alexandrine :D
I am owned by my birds...and I wouldn't have it any other way :D

Image
InTheAir
Posts: 2040
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:24 pm

Re: Giving a treat in spite of bluffing....

Post by InTheAir »

Oh yeah, those bird toys are expensive, especially the ones that are easily destroyed!
Alexanderines are like chainsaws! I'm sticking to little beaked birds.
I made a pom pom out of some natural fibre, I can't remember the name of it, yesterday and our munchkin really likes it. My other home made faves are unprinted newspaper wrapped over a treat and hung from a string. I love watching him reeling it in! And unscented toilet paper rolls stuffed with paper and treats.
Check out this thread for cool ideas http://www.indianringneck.com/forum/vie ... 01&p=69400
And this one for cool toys
Also http://www.indianringneck.com/forum/vie ... oys#p98668

As far as other treats go, I've heard passion fruit seeds can be successful, but I don't like getting covered in passion fruit slime. Coloured pellets were recommended to me also, as long as they are not the normal food the bird gets in its cage.
Our bird is a little pig with wings, so he trains for almost anything: sprouts, carrot pieces, oat groats, pieces of most nuts, fruit, red pepper/capsicum, peas and corn... he just likes being handed any kind of food, I think. :lol:
I haven't tried peanut butter, I wonder what Nila would think of it...
Mel, what do your birds like best?
MissK
Posts: 3011
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2012 3:46 pm
Location: Baltimore, Maryland, U.S.A.

Re: Giving a treat in spite of bluffing....

Post by MissK »

Talking about toys -

I suggest use the search function to locate the toymaking thread. I bought big, official, expensive Parrot Toys for Rocky early in the first year, but as we both got more experienced I began making his toys and I never looked back. Sure, I get seduced by the shiny marketing once in a while, but generally he gets home-made.

I recently got some stuff from Drs Foster and Smith website, leather bits and wood chunks I was too lazy to make myself :oops: . Don't underestimate chinks of wood, though those alphabet blocks from the rodent section seem extra popular for some reason. I also have cut up some hard plastic bead ring style human baby teething toys for the beads. Plastic shower curtain rings from the Dollar Store are a big win, but you have to solve your inner conflict over if they are safe enough. I always suspect everything from there...... a bias, maybe. Ranechild uses clean wooden popsicle sticks. I absolutely rely on clean jute cord. Something in me wants to use organic hemp twine, but, ah, $$$ the way Rocky goes through it. Little textured seashells are a big win, as well as hand torn chunks of cardboard, I kid you not! Be creative - the toy bits are everywhere. GOOGLE for safe woods, though.

Don't forget food can be a toy as well - search "foraging" here. Rocky likes his big, green leaves tied to the perch like Nell to the railroad tracks. http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_fgNunUORMWA/T ... dudley.jpg Also check out Jungle Garden Kabob. http://www.amazon.com/Jungle-Talk-Garde ... B000F1YK0A DO NOT buy this sort for your IRN http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/p ... catid=8797 because the bottom nut unscrews off the stick. It quickly becomes just an unscrew-the-nut toy. For actual foraging use the jungle kebob because the stick itself unscrews from the apple on top- bird proof (well, as much as possible....)

Sky's the limit on home made toys. Ringnecks also don't care if it's pretty, though fancy pants like myself prefer to make visually attractive toys as well.
-MissK
TimVioletIRN
Posts: 24
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 4:53 pm

Re: Giving a treat in spite of bluffing....

Post by TimVioletIRN »

Thanks everyone! I'm going to check those things out! :) I really appreciate it.
Skyes_crew
Posts: 1946
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:49 pm
Location: Hawaii

Re: Giving a treat in spite of bluffing....

Post by Skyes_crew »

InTheAir wrote:Oh yeah, those bird toys are expensive, especially the ones that are easily destroyed!
Alexanderines are like chainsaws! I'm sticking to little beaked birds.
I made a pom pom out of some natural fibre, I can't remember the name of it, yesterday and our munchkin really likes it. My other home made faves are unprinted newspaper wrapped over a treat and hung from a string. I love watching him reeling it in! And unscented toilet paper rolls stuffed with paper and treats.
Check out this thread for cool ideas http://www.indianringneck.com/forum/vie ... 01&p=69400
And this one for cool toys
Also http://www.indianringneck.com/forum/vie ... oys#p98668

As far as other treats go, I've heard passion fruit seeds can be successful, but I don't like getting covered in passion fruit slime. Coloured pellets were recommended to me also, as long as they are not the normal food the bird gets in its cage.
Our bird is a little pig with wings, so he trains for almost anything: sprouts, carrot pieces, oat groats, pieces of most nuts, fruit, red pepper/capsicum, peas and corn... he just likes being handed any kind of food, I think. :lol:
I haven't tried peanut butter, I wonder what Nila would think of it...
Mel, what do your birds like best?
I can not stand passion fruit seeds...the slime is unbearable and to me they stink so bad. Yuck!!

Skye is just like Nila...she will train for anything. When it's not breeding season that is lol. But her favorites are pieces of fish, corn, pasta, oat groats, peanuts. Since I changed her diet she seems a lot happier. Hamlet follows whatever skye does. Cyrano, the way to his heart is through his stomach. That bird should have a sign around his neck that says "will work for food". I have never had to work hard to get him to try something new. His bowl is always literally licked clean. His skewer is empty. And his forage boxes are torn up.

For toys I use the abc blocks, the 1" and 2" round wood beads, cured guava wood, jute cord, and other misc wood block pieces I pick up in a bundle pack. I also get vine balls, apple wood sticks, and grass mats from the rodent section. I'm lucky enough to be able to get all the coconuts and coconut grass I could ever want. I also like to build hanging perches and swings for the birds. It's fun :D
I am owned by my birds...and I wouldn't have it any other way :D

Image
MissK
Posts: 3011
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2012 3:46 pm
Location: Baltimore, Maryland, U.S.A.

Re: Giving a treat in spite of bluffing....

Post by MissK »

What fish does she prefer?
-MissK
Skyes_crew
Posts: 1946
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:49 pm
Location: Hawaii

Re: Giving a treat in spite of bluffing....

Post by Skyes_crew »

I eat only white fish...so when I prepare it for me and hubby I make some plain for her and put it aside to eat when we eat. So to answer your question, Cod, flounder, and tilapia. :D
I am owned by my birds...and I wouldn't have it any other way :D

Image
TimVioletIRN
Posts: 24
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 4:53 pm

Re: Giving a treat in spite of bluffing....

Post by TimVioletIRN »

InTheAir wrote: I don't know if you have tried any trick training with your bird, if you want any tips or links let me know.
edit: auto correct
I started working with Celest tonight on her little perch and I taught her to turn around. It took her less than ten minutes and she was doing a 360 before I even told her to, so she could get a treat. I used pieces of peanut, pieces of walnut, pieces of pistachio, pumpkin seeds and safflower seeds. After she had that down pat, I worked with her to step up and back down a bunch of times to reinforce her doing that without biting. The whole session was probably less than 30 minutes, but it was great! I'm sure she'll want to do it again, soon.

What did you try next after the turn around?

Thanks a bunch!
Tim
Post Reply