All registrations must be approved by an admin. Having problems with registration? E-mail us at indianringnecks@gmail.com

A new Mutation?

Moderator: Mods

Post Reply
User avatar
madas
Posts: 973
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:12 am
Contact:

A new Mutation?

Post by madas » Sun Dec 21, 2008 2:31 pm

Hi all,

today i have found a very interesting post in a german board.

Look here: http://www.azvogelzucht.de/board/showtopic.php3?threadid=78884

As you can see on the pictures the bird looks like some kind of purple or pink. The bird is the spring off of the following breeding pair:

1,0 cobalt violet / lutino(ino) x 0,1 Lutino/blue

Is it possible that the ino gen can't mask the violet respectively the coblat gen completly like the blue gen?

Thx.

PS: The picture arn't fake pictures. This is the color of this bird. The is of an approved breeder. i know him personally.

Fah
Posts: 685
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2007 7:00 am
Location: Adelaide, Australia

Post by Fah » Sun Dec 21, 2008 4:53 pm

There are a few breeders in Australia with ino birds masking violet (some on thie forum) so ino does mask it, just as it masks blue and grey etc.

They just appear as albino birds, or creamino's if the turquoise gene is present.

I think Ring0neck here has a Creamino masking violet that he can vouch for.

Now... it could be a freak of nature... but I cant see anything in what the parents could produce as being able to produce that colour.

Now... with all things with just one simple series of photo's like this, with no photo's showing development, no pics of the parents, and not being able to proove without someone just 'saying they are legitimate' you are always going to have alot of people saying 'its fake'.

Since you know the guy, can you get pics of the parents? (in nice lighting) and the 100% formal genetic listing that goes with them?

Cobalt Violet split ino can be two different things... because from pure genetics... cobalt violet split ino, is a dark green violet split ino. If its not green, it means its also carrying blue, ie; dark blue violet split ino.

Cobalt is effectively a darkening, not a specific colour itself.

Can you let us know what other colours came from the nest? Get some pics of the parents?

I honestly have never seen a dark blue violet ino bird (cobalt violet ino)... however... that colour combination certainly doesnt lend itself to 'pink or red'.

I had a young creamino with pink feet just like that, and the same colour pink on its belly and chest... here is a pic of it before it went really pink.

Image

The colouring was caused by a red calcium perch... walking on it and rubbing up to it etc... so its quite easy to fake this sort of thing with albino birds, hence why alot will jump to fake in the breeding world.

Just as a note, there is no real 'cobalt' gene. The name cobalt refers to the 'dark' gene with blue... making blue appear cobalt in colour. Single factor dark blue birds are cobalts, double factor dark blue birds are mauve.

The dark gene will set next to any other mutation and act accordingly with the base colour and ino. If the bird is a dark green ino.. its a yellow bird... same with dark blue ino's appear albino.

If you want to check out the effect of ino on cobalts and violets and see that they can / are masked, is to check out the pallid violets, and pallid cobalts that are around, no pink tinge to the heads etc.

Similar to the effect with the clearheaded, and cleartailed mutations, they appear as white or coloured to the blue hues where appropriate.

In the end, im curious to see what comes of this. However... its the feet above anything else that make me disbelieve this as being a natural 'mutation'.

Edit: curious how the shafts of the feathers remain white... yet the vanes show colour (feathery part of the.... feather....)

Fah
Posts: 685
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2007 7:00 am
Location: Adelaide, Australia

Post by Fah » Sun Dec 21, 2008 11:46 pm

Either that or as someone says its a freak change of behaviour in the Psittacine in a lutino.

Any other pics of this bird? Or just a one off series of photos, since this thing has apparently been alive for 10 or so months... surely there are other pics around?

Because using the beak / damage to the top beak area, these are all from the same time period.

Another note... why are the backgrounds so awfully dark? There seems to be a flash in use.. that isnt capturing anything in the background... which is... well.. weird no?

clear
Posts: 43
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2008 3:56 am
Location: sydney australia

Post by clear » Mon Dec 22, 2008 2:42 am

i just love this forum.Fah the way you explain some of the posts that are posted well you amaze me. i wish i could just remember half of the stuff you know about ringnecks and most of the birds that people put up in.here. but being a bit colour blind i cant work out what colour your talking about. i can work out bold colours but this bit of this and bit of that i am lost but keep it going ill work it out
we try

User avatar
kyria
Site Admin
Posts: 3028
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2005 5:42 pm
Location: Live in Australia - Have a home in Florida - Citizenship in Heaven
Contact:

Post by kyria » Mon Dec 22, 2008 3:28 am

I wonder if its something like what happens in the red factor canary. There are many sites stating the breeding in Germany of these birds, also brought on in particular breeds of canary by food colouring in the water, obtained at petstores see link;

http://www.petcraft.com/docs/redcan.shtml

Also noting that the pink flamingo gets it colouring from the substances in its surroundings particularly in the muds of their area. In zoo's these substances must be added to the muds to keep the pink colour otherwise the flamingo's lose their pink colouring.

I wonder if this is what they have done here ?? Just a thought
Angie
---------
Hatred stirs up strife, But love covers all sins. {Pro 10:12}
-----------
God Bless


Image

Fah
Posts: 685
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2007 7:00 am
Location: Adelaide, Australia

Post by Fah » Mon Dec 22, 2008 5:29 am

yeah... regardless of who says this is legitimate, sorta needs more than one set of photos from the same point in its life, and some really good background info / pics on parents etc

It isnt the first ground breaking new crazy colour to come into the world of birds... though wondering if it will go out like most of them as either 1) fake or 2) human intervention.

Just a few things with the look of the bird dont quite match up with how mutations in indian ringnecks behave.

User avatar
Lauren
Site Admin
Posts: 2828
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 2:12 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia.

Post by Lauren » Mon Dec 22, 2008 8:16 am

That is very sad indeed if the owner had 'dyed' the birds feathers to look like that. I say FAKE. Just looks like red/pink dye. I just hope its safe enough for the poor bird. :?
"Jibby aka Gilbert" Indian Ringneck 13 years "Charlie" Rex Rabbit 1 year

Fah
Posts: 685
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2007 7:00 am
Location: Adelaide, Australia

Post by Fah » Mon Dec 22, 2008 5:11 pm

Food dye is completely harmless, they actually inject baby chicks egg shells with coloured food dye a few days before hatching, and it takes to the down, out hatches vibrantly coloured balls of fluff.

In the past, some of the food dye techniques killed the young, but now, just harmless fun for kids. They lose the colouring as they lose the down.

I cant see that its been dunk dyed, unless it was done rediculously well, but it was like the whole 'blue caique' fiasco... there were alot of fakes, then someone came out with a legitimate series of pictures from hatch etc, so it took the community some time to give the honest photo's some credability.

I just cant see how the genetics can produce a bird that colour. If it IS legitimate, there are and have been many many strange and wonderful colours in birds... that dont end up living past a couple of years due to it actually being a result of some deficiency etc.

Edit: apparently you can do this with almost any albino bird, and it seems to be a thing amongst pet owners in europe and getting a little more common... feeding it this Rotfutter stuff... ie; the special canary colour reinforcing food etc...

User avatar
kyria
Site Admin
Posts: 3028
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2005 5:42 pm
Location: Live in Australia - Have a home in Florida - Citizenship in Heaven
Contact:

Post by kyria » Tue Dec 23, 2008 4:03 am

Well thats what I think it is Fah
Angie
---------
Hatred stirs up strife, But love covers all sins. {Pro 10:12}
-----------
God Bless


Image

User avatar
ryelle
Posts: 367
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2008 7:25 am
Location: N.E England

Post by ryelle » Tue Dec 23, 2008 6:54 am

Hehe it looks like its just been dunked in a tub of pink Dye. You know like when they dye Poodles pink? or any other white toy dog for that matter.

I know that it has pink feathering - and my fid has green feathers - but why are the birds feet so unnaturaly pink? My fids feet arent green just because he has green feathers :? He had purple feet one time because of a toy he had. I probably sound stupid, and someone will say their bird has green feet with photographic evidence or something lol.

Also, on the feet, the drier bits of skin are a darker colour, which is what happens if you get any type of dye on dry human skin.

It could all be proven to be a real discovery, and there will be pink IRNs flying around all over the place. But.. even if i knew as much about the genetic side breeding as Fah does (as far as im concerned - one male bird and one female bird make lots of birds), i think i'd still be as skeptical as i am now. It just looks too wrong to be right :?

Fah
Posts: 685
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2007 7:00 am
Location: Adelaide, Australia

Post by Fah » Tue Dec 23, 2008 12:22 pm

kyria wrote:Well thats what I think it is Fah


Yah, just been harassing a few friends over in Germany, apparently its not that uncommon to get someone feeding that stuff to albino birds, have heard from them that 'apparently' there was a faint orange one too, when fed to a lutino.... so yah... kinda sceptical.

I mean... I guess its perfectly finel, so long as 1) it doesnt impose on the birds health in the slightest 2) it doesnt impose in the birds mental welfare and 3) its not claimed as something it isnt.

Will have to wait and see as time goes on I guess. I look forward to any pictures of this thnig moulting, or when it was hatched...

I didnt think there would be a breeder dealing in violets and cobalts that would not notice the significance of a 'pink' bird when it was hatched... and document it... and need someone else to tell them 'ooh wow'. Especially of an 'approved breeder' or similar. I would have jumped out of the aviary going 'omg omg... a pink bird... wtf... omg..." and taking a million pics and done some heavy background on the genes of my parents.. :P

cairnsbirdlady
Posts: 28
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:11 pm
Location: Cairns F.N.Q

Post by cairnsbirdlady » Wed Feb 04, 2009 9:40 pm

looks like there may be a red light bulb around reflecting and makes it look pink?????????????
bb and buddy

User avatar
madas
Posts: 973
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:12 am
Contact:

Post by madas » Sat May 23, 2009 6:59 am

Hi,

there are some new pictures of this bird:

http://azvogelzucht.de/board/showtopic. ... 1243086924

Fah
Posts: 685
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2007 7:00 am
Location: Adelaide, Australia

Post by Fah » Sat May 23, 2009 4:53 pm

Still just looks like residual effects from the canary colouration. It doesnt look to behave like any other colouration mutation I know of either.

The first series of images just seem too much like a result of the colouration feeding (i mean seriously... it even coloured the feet tissue), and this just looks like a normal albino that has started getting rid of the colouration in moulting.

I dont know for certain, so I dont want to declare anything as truth, but it just seems like another example of feeding canary colouration.

Fah
Posts: 685
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2007 7:00 am
Location: Adelaide, Australia

Post by Fah » Tue May 26, 2009 4:45 am

I mean, as another note, a friend quite heavily into Canary breeding and colouration pointed me to a few good examples that seem to mimic how this 'mutation' has started to appear.

Research:

One product is canathaxin another is Bogena Intensif is one more known for spot colouration that looks incredibly similar to the IRN pictured.

Carophyl Red is another.

Beta Carotene enhances to my knowledge, not changes.


Image

Image

Image

Image

Colour feeding birds is hardly new, and its actually quite a 'fad' in some other species to alter colouration. Its not cruel but its a falsity to claim mutations etc and facing reality, many people lie about their birds for attention / money.

I showed him the pics and he wasnt suprised by the pink at all, he said there have been white canaries turned into fluro yellow, mellow yellow, pink, red, orange, creamy orange, orange/pink, yellow, deep yellow etc... and that such a situation could and very likely will happen in the albino IRN.

I am no expert in regards to this colour feed stuff, but I would place heavy bets that this is not a real colouration at all.
Last edited by Fah on Tue May 26, 2009 6:46 am, edited 2 times in total.

julie
Moderator
Posts: 2243
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 2:07 am
Location: nsw australia

Post by julie » Tue May 26, 2009 5:22 am

looking at the pics , the breeder seems to have a taste for pink things, they are lucky to get a bird in possibly their favorite color. I'm basing this on the pink lid and other pink things in the background of this pick.
Image

Post Reply