what's the difference between a blue and a turquoise?

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donna/wisconsin
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what's the difference between a blue and a turquoise?

Post by donna/wisconsin »

my bird is beautiful sky blue all over but his wings are kind of like turquoise.

just asking 'cause i took the color poll and noticed a lot of turquoise on there.
birdman5000
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Post by birdman5000 »

genetics and mutations are not my strong point

but i believe the turquoise is a green with a single dark factor in the coloration gene

and the blue is a normal green that lacks the yellow pigment so just like mixing blue+yellow =green, green-yellow=blue

at least thats the way my budgie book sums up the coloration of budgies im not sure its the same for irns
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Jeremy
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Post by Jeremy »

I have never seen a Turquoise Ringneck but i have seen, and breed TurquoiseBlue.

Turquoise is an allele of the Blue mutation. The Blue mutation removes psittacin by 100%, whereas, the Turquoise only removes psittacin by 50%.
The Turquoise is a Parblue mutation. There is another Parblue mutation in Ringnecks but it seems to be a bit rarer, it is an Aqua.

So a Blue will be Blue in colour, with grey feet, dark toenails, and black flight
A TurquoiseBlue will be green and blue in colour, with grey feet, dark toenails, and black flights. However, i have noticed with my young TurquoiseBlues, they have pink feet and light nails :?

Basically, the TurquoiseBlue's will be primarily Blue, but will have a green wash, particularly on the mantle and head regions.
Dani03
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Post by Dani03 »

Ok so here it goes...

Lisa's TIKI is a blue...

Jen's BYNDI is a turq...

Look them up!

Dani, Prinny and Bodi
birdman5000
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Post by birdman5000 »

hey jeremy i have some irns i think might be a slightly different mutation than a normal green? i saw a pic of a cinemon on outbackaveries that looked just like them
they are a really light green with almost yellow heads and pink feet and nails

i posted some pics in the photo forum but it was at night and the flash was either to high on some or to low on others so they dont look quite like they do in real light in the sun the heads look like an off-yellow more than green
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Jeremy
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Post by Jeremy »

Dani03 wrote:Ok so here it goes...

Lisa's TIKI is a blue...

Jen's BYNDI is a turq...

Look them up!

Dani, Prinny and Bodi


Byndi is a TurquoiseBlue
bonjoram
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Post by bonjoram »

In the US, the single-factored Turquoiseblues are commonly referred to as just plain Turquoise.

Most American breeders that I've spoken to never refer them as Turquoiseblue. Homozygotic Turquoise birds are called Double-Factor Turquoise (DF). Elsewhere, I guess a Turquoise bird would be a double-factor.

I suppose it's the same reason why some prefer Lacewings rather than Pallids, or Silver as opposed to Grey Cinnamon, or Golden Olive and not Cinnamon Greygreen. People have their preferences in calling the different mutations. Albeit some colorful, such as Rainbow Ringneck. One of these days we may even have a Golden Sunrise Eruption ringneck :roll:
Jeremy
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Post by Jeremy »

I think you have misunderstood the Turquoise gene.

Turquoise is an allele of the Blue mutation. It is recessive but becomes dominant when combined with Blue.
Therefore, you cannot get SF or DF mutants.
Turquoise is a primary mutation, TurquoiseBlue is a secondary mutation

This is not a case of country naming rights, this is about proper naming rights for mutations.
Turquoise = 50% psittacin reduction
TurquoiseBlue = 25% psittacin reduction
bonjoram
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Re: what's the difference between a blue and a turquoise?

Post by bonjoram »

donna/wisconsin wrote:my bird is beautiful sky blue all over but his wings are kind of like turquoise.

just asking 'cause i took the color poll and noticed a lot of turquoise on there.



Blue IRNs have two blue genes (one on each chromosome pair). Turquoise Single-Factor would have one blue gene and one turquoise gene. Turquoise Double-Factor birds will have two turquoise genes. Since Turquoise is an allele of Blue (allele means a different mutated form of the same gene), it is possible to breed Blue birds from Turquoise birds but not the other way around. Turquoise birds are sometime referred to as Parblues or Partial Blues.

As already mentioned above, the Blue mutation results in a total loss of psittacines (yellow and pink pigmentation) in the outer layers of the feather structure. With the Turquoise mutation however, some of the psitaccines are retained, hence the inter-mingled green coloration usually in the wing and head area.

There is much variation of Blue, Green or Turquoise on any given Turquoise bird. This is brought about by the action of separate modifying or color controlling genes also inherited by the birds. Therefore some Turquoise birds may look almost blue and some may look almost green and every hue combination in between.

Turquoise is one of my favorite mutation because you can pretty much combine it with any other mutation and come up with beautiful specimens such as the Turquoise Grey, Turquoise Pallids, Creamino (from crossover with Lutino?), Cinnamon Turquoise, Turquoise Violet, etc.
bonjoram
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Post by bonjoram »

Jeremy wrote:Turquoise is an allele of the Blue mutation. It is recessive but becomes dominant when combined with Blue.
I agree on this one.


But not on this..

Therefore, you cannot get SF or DF mutants.
Turquoise is a primary mutation, TurquoiseBlue is a secondary mutation


Try mating two Turquoiseblues. 25% of the offsprings will be DF. The rest will be 25% Blue and 50% Turquoiseblue (SF). You can either do it on the Punnet or the Genetic Calculator. Its dominancy over Blue is the reason why SF and DF is even relevant. Try mating it with a Green series bird and you will only get Green visuals.

This website considers Turquoiseblue (Pastelblue or Turquoise) as a primary mutation.

http://outbackaviaries.com/ringneckgene ... etics.html


This is not a case of country naming rights, this is about proper naming rights for mutations.
Turquoise = 50% psittacin reduction
TurquoiseBlue = 25% psittacin reduction


I'd be interested on what your source is, specifically the genetic code of the above birds you mentioned. I've read this great internet article among others re: Turquoise mutation.

http://www.sunbird1.co.za/new_page_2.htm
Last edited by bonjoram on Sat May 13, 2006 8:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
Jeremy
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Post by Jeremy »

Ok, so i suppose you can get SF and DF mutants, but with all Dominant mutations, there will be no clear difference between each mutant.
There is only a clear difference between SF and DF if the gene is incomplete dominant.

TurquoiseBlue is definitely not a primary mutation. Primary mutations are just one single gene, whereas, TurquoiseBlue is made up of 2 genes - Turquoise and Blue, therefore making it a secondary mutation.

With most mutations, we always refer back to the Budgie, because all the mutations were bred in them first.
In the Budgie, the Blue is Blue in colour, the Turquoise is Green-Blue in colour, and the TurquoiseBlue is VERY close to Green in colour.
So that is why i say TurquoiseBlue has around about 25% Psittacin reduction. Obviously, each bird will be different, so these are just rough percentages, but it gives an idea.
bonjoram
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Post by bonjoram »

My understanding of a Primary Mutation is it cannot be created by selective breeding in one's aviary. The mutation happens as a "freak" of nature such as Lutino, Dark Green, Cleartails, etc. The Turquoise or Turquoiseblue mutation therefore falls under this category, although it possesses two different genes (Blue and Turquoise).

I may be wrong but conversely, my understanding of Secondary Mutations is that they can be created by interbreeding the primary mutations. Examples would be Blue Pallids, Grey Cinnamons, etc.

In Bastiaan's book (page 49), there is no mention of a Turquoiseblue mutation. Just a plain Turquoise mutation having one blue gene and one turquoise allele and it is considered a primary mutation. It can also occur as a heterozygote (SF) or homozygote (DF).
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Post by Tintin_Montreal »

birdman5000 wrote:genetics and mutations are not my strong point

but i believe the turquoise is a green with a single dark factor in the coloration gene

and the blue is a normal green that lacks the yellow pigment so just like mixing blue+yellow =green, green-yellow=blue

at least thats the way my budgie book sums up the coloration of budgies im not sure its the same for irns


Hey birdman & Every Birdie,
Turquoise is not a secondary mutation (combined primaries) ! It is a genuine (pure) primary mutation and allele of the Bl-Locus (Blue gene) ;

Therefore ;

Wild-Type (Green) + singleDark = Dark-Green
Wild-Type (Green) + doubleDark = Olive-Green

Blue + singleDark = singleDark_Blue aka Cobalt
Blue + doubleDark = doubleDark_Blue aka Mauve

Turquoise + singleDark = singleDark_Turquoise
Turquoise + doubleDark = doubleDark_Turquoise

Aqua + singleDark = singleDark_Aqua
Aqua + doubleDark = doubleDark_Aqua

...

In the Blue mutation ; psittacin (yellow &/or red pigments) are virtually completely (abt. 99%) suppressed and so the remaining 1% psittacin produced explains the very slight greenish tones displayed by all genuine Blue specimens. Mature cocks display pure white nape bands.

In the Aqua mutation (extremelly rare in IRNs) ; psittacin (yellow &/or red pigments) are EVENLY reduced to precisely about 50% from that of Wild-Type and so producing EVEN blue-green specimens. Mature cocks display pinkish-orange nape bands.

In the Turquoise mutation; psittacin (yellow &/or red pigments) are VARIABLY (UNevenly) reduced to about 75% from that of Wild-Type and so producing UNevenly greenish-blue specimens. Mature cocks display whitish-pink nape bands.

Aqua, Blue & Turquoise are all alelles of the Bl-Locus and because of that bare a multiple-allelic relationship given rise to multiple-allelomorph varieties (combined alleles) Therefore ;

Blue + Turquoise = psittacin (yellow &/or red pigments) are VARIABLY (UNevenly) reduced to about 25% from that of Wild-Type and so producing UNevenly blueish-green (near green colour with a very slight blueish tone) specimens. Mature cocks display orangish-pink nape bands.
Tintin_Montreal
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Post by Tintin_Montreal »

Jeremy wrote:Basically, the TurquoiseBlue's will be primarily Blue, but will have a green wash, particularly on the mantle and head regions.


Hey Jeremy & Every Birdie,
it is actually the opposite phenomenon where Turquoise specimens display a greenish-blue (near blue colour with slight greenish tones) and where TurquoiseBlue display a bluish-green (near green with slight blueish tones)
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Post by Tintin_Montreal »

birdman5000 wrote:hey jeremy i have some irns i think might be a slightly different mutation than a normal green? i saw a pic of a cinemon on outbackaveries that looked just like them
they are a really light green with almost yellow heads and pink feet and nails

i posted some pics in the photo forum but it was at night and the flash was either to high on some or to low on others so they dont look quite like they do in real light in the sun the heads look like an off-yellow more than green


Hey birdman & Every Birdie,
the yellow head and pale green body combined to the pink skin (feets) & I presume white-tipped transluscent (pink) toe nails reveals the Pallid mutation. This is a mutation which is also known as Lime in Australia and totally erraneously called LaceWings in the common hobby.

Genuine Pallid specimens display WINE-RED eyes & GREY flights as well as the pink skin (feets) & white-tipped transluscent (pink) toe nails.

PallidIno specimens (ONLY cocks can ever be PallidInos) ; display RED eyes & silver (light-grey) flights as well as the pink skin (feets) & white-tipped transluscent (pink) toe nails.

IF your 'yellowheaded pale-green bodied' IRN displays WINE-RED eyes but the flights are pale-brown (free of any grey tone) as well as pink skin (feets) & white-tipped transluscent (pink) toe nails ; then this is a green series' Cinnamon-Ino aka Cinnamon-Lutino (THE genuine LaceWings) and these can be of either genders.
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Post by Tintin_Montreal »

bonjoram wrote:In the US, the single-factored Turquoiseblues are commonly referred to as just plain Turquoise.

Most American breeders that I've spoken to never refer them as Turquoiseblue. Homozygotic Turquoise birds are called Double-Factor Turquoise (DF). Elsewhere, I guess a Turquoise bird would be a double-factor.

I suppose it's the same reason why some prefer Lacewings rather than Pallids, or Silver as opposed to Grey Cinnamon, or Golden Olive and not Cinnamon Greygreen. People have their preferences in calling the different mutations. Albeit some colorful, such as Rainbow Ringneck. One of these days we may even have a Golden Sunrise Eruption ringneck :roll:


Hey bonjoram & Every Birdie,

SF & DF denominations ONLY applies to mutations which ALWAYS inherits in a Dominant manner (either completely aka Complete_Dominance &/or Incompletely aka Incomplete-Dominance)

i.e.

Dark Factor which ALWAYS inherits autosomal-Incomplete-Dominant
Grey Factor which ALWAYS inherits autosomal-Complete-Dominant
Violet Factor which ALWAYS inherits autosomal-Incomplete-Dominant

Alleles of the Bl-Locus (Blue gene) such as Aqua (Bl*aq), Blue (Bl*bl) & Turquoise (bl*tq) ONLY ever behave Co-Dominant (Cooperative-Dominance) when mated between one another and ALWAYS autosomal-recessive with regards to any other mutations (including Wild-Type)

Whenever a Blue is mated to a Green partner ; 100% visual Green guarantied Split/Blue offsprings are produced.

Exact same phenomenon occurs whenever a Turquoise is mated to a Green partner ; 100% visual Green guarantied Split/Turquoise offsprings are produced.

Near exact same phenomenon occurs to whenever a TurquoiseBlue specimen is mated to a Green specimen and so where 100% visual Green offsprings are produced where 50% are Split/Blue & the other 50% is Split/Turquoise.

However whenever a Blue specimen is mated to a Turquoise patrner ; 100% visual TurquoiseBlue offsprings are produced displaying a greener colouration that their Turquoise parent but bluer than their Blue parent.

Near exact same phenomenon occurs to whenever a TurquoiseBlue specimen is mated to either a Blue &/or Turquoise specimen and so where 50% of the offsprings are TurquoiseBlue & the other 50% is either Blue OR Turquoise.
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Post by bonjoram »

Thanks for posting Tintin and welcome to the board. It's great to have someone of your knowledge to be posting here.

Ok. It is for the above reason that I said on an earlier post that "DF" and "SF" on Turquoise birds is only relevant when mating with Blue series birds. Turquoise is CD within its locus (Bl). Although the terms homozygotic and heterozygotic may be more appropriate rather, considering your explanation. In addition to the Grey, Violet, and Dark, the Fallows (Dom. Edged), Dom. Pied and Misty also fall on this category then.

Also, considering the way you use the term Turquoise and the resultant outcomes when mated to the wild-type, I take it to mean that when you use the term Turquoise, you are referring to the bird with a genotype Bl*tq/Bl*tq and when you refer to Turquoiseblue its genetic code would be Bl*bl/Bl*tq?

The way the multiple-alleles relate to within the Bl loci and the resulting phenotypes, would that be similar or the same as the phenomenon occuring in Palladinos between the Ino and its Pallid allele?
bonjoram
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Post by bonjoram »


SF & DF denominations ONLY applies to mutations which ALWAYS inherits in a Dominant manner (either completely aka Complete_Dominance &/or Incompletely aka Incomplete-Dominance)


By the way, Deon Smith also refers to SF and DF Turquoise birds.

http://www.sunbird1.co.za/new_page_2.htm
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Post by Tintin_Montreal »

bonjoram wrote:Thanks for posting Tintin and welcome to the board. It's great to have someone of your knowledge to be posting here.

Ok. It is for the above reason that I said on an earlier post that "DF" and "SF" on Turquoise birds is only relevant when mating with Blue series birds. Turquoise is CD within its locus (Bl). Although the terms homozygotic and heterozygotic may be more appropriate rather, considering your explanation. In addition to the Grey, Violet, and Dark, the Fallows (Dom. Edged), Dom. Pied and Misty also fall on this category then.

Also, considering the way you use the term Turquoise and the resultant outcomes when mated to the wild-type, I take it to mean that when you use the term Turquoise, you are referring to the bird with a genotype Bl*tq/Bl*tq and when you refer to Turquoiseblue its genetic code would be Bl*bl/Bl*tq?

The way the multiple-alleles relate to within the Bl loci and the resulting phenotypes, would that be similar or the same as the phenomenon occuring in Palladinos between the Ino and its Pallid allele?


Hey again bonjoram & Every Birdie,
an Homozygous mutant specimen is an individual with a double copy of a single mutation (i.e. 2 copies of the Blue mutation) while an heterozygous mutant specimen is an individual with 1 Wild-Type copy of a gene and 1 mutated copy of the according gene (i.e Green/Blue)

In any circumstances the inheritance of the mutation involved does not matter. ALL living creatures are either heterozygous &/or Homozygous for each & every gene of their entire genetic make-up. Except for individuals carrying a mutation on their single complete Sex-Linked chromosome (X in Mammals &/or Z in Birds) and described as Hemizygous.

Indeed a Turquoise mutant specimen is symbolicaly described as Bl*tq/Bl*tq and a TurquoiseBlue mutant specimen is symbolicaly described as Bl*bl/Bl*tq The latter is indeed equivalent to PallidIno (Ino*ino/Ino*pd) cocks.

Mutant specimens displaying 1 copy of 1 allele of a Locus and a copy of another allele of the same Locus are called Hetero-allemorph specimens.
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Post by Tintin_Montreal »

bonjoram wrote:

SF & DF denominations ONLY applies to mutations which ALWAYS inherits in a Dominant manner (either completely aka Complete_Dominance &/or Incompletely aka Incomplete-Dominance)


By the way, Deon Smith also refers to SF and DF Turquoise birds.

http://www.sunbird1.co.za/new_page_2.htm


Hey again bonjoram & Every Birdie,
Deon should read &/or re-read Dr. Terry MARTIN's “A Guide to Colour Mutations and Genetics in Parrots” book.
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Post by kyria »

My head is spinning ... :shock: you guys are amazing, glad you know your stuff, glad I am leaving you to it.. lol
Angie
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Hatred stirs up strife, But love covers all sins. {Pro 10:12}
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God Bless


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bonjoram
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Post by bonjoram »

Tintin_Montreal wrote:Mutant specimens displaying 1 copy of 1 allele of a Locus and a copy of another allele of the same Locus are called Hetero-allemorph specimens.


So a Turquoiseblue would be a hetero-allelemorph and a Turquoise would be a homo-allelemorph?


Tintin_Montreal wrote:SF & DF denominations ONLY applies to mutations which ALWAYS inherits in a Dominant manner (either completely aka Complete_Dominance &/or Incompletely aka Incomplete-Dominance)

By the way, Deon Smith also refers to SF and DF Turquoise birds.

http://www.sunbird1.co.za/new_page_2.htm

Hey again bonjoram & Every Birdie,
Deon should read &/or re-read Dr. Terry MARTIN's “A Guide to Colour Mutations and Genetics in Parrots” book.



Nomenclature preference really is irrelevant as long as there is commonality in the understanding of the bird's genetic coding. It doesn't matter whether other people call my bird Turquoiseblue or Pastelblue or Single-Factor Turquoise. Heck, they can call it "Bob" for all I care. The bird's genetics is what it is. Calling it whatever will not alter any of its progeny. As a breeder, all I need to know it has one blue and one turquoise allele.

While I myself have purchased Dr. Terry Martin's book (it should arrive here anytime soon :D ), and will attempt to absorb its contents page by page. Still, I'll continue to read into and consolidate other sources' collective IRN knowledge until such time that someone actually has mapped the complete genome of the Indian Ringneck species and mastered its genetic characteristics.
Last edited by bonjoram on Sun May 14, 2006 5:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
bonjoram
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Post by bonjoram »

kyria wrote:My head is spinning ... :shock: you guys are amazing, glad you know your stuff, glad I am leaving you to it.. lol


LoL Kyria. :D I can't even spell Indian Ringneck a few months ago.
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Post by jen5239 »

That's too funny Angie, cuz last night I tried to post almost the same thing but for some reason when I hit submit it came up and said the page couldn't be displayed. So it didn't post. But it makes my eyes pop just reading the posts. Jeepers! Don't know how you guys do it.

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Post by Neokireina »

TECHNICALLY I dont believe that it IS a single and double factor, but it acts that way. Cos when you put it into the genetics calculator there is the
Turq x Blue = Blue Turq

There is NO option for single or double factor for Turquoise. However to Program a BlueTurq into the calculator you need to select Turq/blue which gives you the Blue Turq and the Blue..

So can you explain why that is.
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Post by Tintin_Montreal »

bonjoram wrote:So a Turquoiseblue would be a hetero-allelemorph and a Turquoise would be a homo-allelemorph?


Hey again bonjoram & Every Birdie,
nope ;-)

All living creatures are either heterozygous OR Homozygous for every single genes of their genotypes.

Heterozygous means other or different zygotes which would translates into something like 'different gene state'.

i.e.
Wild-Type Split Blue = bl+/bl*bl
singleDark-Green aka Dark-Green = D+/D
Blue Split Bronze_Fallow = bl*bl/bl*bl a+/a*bz
Turquoise Split Cinnamon cock = bl*tq*/bl*tq Zcin Z
...

Homozygous means identical zygotes which would translates into something like 'identical gene state'. Homozygous specimens are pure mutations (always breeding true whenever bred to genuine same)

i.e.
Bronze_Fallow = a*bz/a*bz
doubleGrey Blue aka DF Grey = bl*bl/bl*bl G*/G*
Turquoise Cinnamon cock = bl*tq/bl*tq Zcin Zcin

Hemizygous means semi zygote which would translate into something like 'half same gene state'. This genetic term only applies to the gender of each species possessing the sex-determinant (aka incomplete-sex)chromosome which is described as the Y-chromosome in Mammals &/or W-chromosome in Birds. This genetic term was created in order to distinguish these types of mutants from heterozygous mutants for the simple reason the previous (Hemizygous) are ALWAYS visual while the later (heterozygous) are only ever visual with regards to Dominant mutations and NEVER with regards to recessive mutations.

i.e.
Cinnamon hen = Zcin W
Pallid hen = Zino*pd W
Opaline hen = Zop W
...

Hetero-allelomorph means hetero (different) expressed (visual) alleles and refers to VISUALLY expressing 2 different recessive alleles of a particular Locus which would normally be asymptomatic under genuine heterozygous (different gene state) form. Hetero-allelomorph varieties are always UNstable mutations (never breeds true whenever bred to genuine same)

i.e.
AquaBlue = bl*aq/bl*bl
AquaTurquoise = bl*aq/bl*tq
TurquoiseBlue = bl*tq/bl*bl
NSLinoBronze_Fallow = a*a/a*bz
PallidIno cock = Zino*ino Zino*pd
...
Last edited by Tintin_Montreal on Tue May 16, 2006 9:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
bonjoram
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Post by bonjoram »

Neokireina wrote:TECHNICALLY I dont believe that it IS a single and double factor, but it acts that way. Cos when you put it into the genetics calculator there is the
Turq x Blue = Blue Turq

There is NO option for single or double factor for Turquoise. However to Program a BlueTurq into the calculator you need to select Turq/blue which gives you the Blue Turq and the Blue..

So can you explain why that is.


I don't really get too caught up with the different naming conventions. There's too many namings but there was never a convention. Terminology is a matter of preference, very subjective and arbitrary. Unlike the laws of genetics, which is objective and definite.

Russians prefer the term cosmonaut, Westerners prefer astronaut. Both refer to the same profession, and neither is more correct than the other.

Regarding the Genetic Calculator, if you select the Show Genetic Code option on the bottom, a Turquoise would have a genetic code of bl*tq/bl*tq, same as what other people would term a Double-Factor Turquoise. Besides Deon Smith, this is another established IRN breeder who uses the term DF Turquoise.

http://outbackaviaries.com/ringneckgene ... chart.html

Technically speaking, as long as you are referring to the same genetically-coded bird, it's irrefutable. Call it DF Turquoise, Turquoise, Turquoise with two factors of bl*tq allele, makes no difference. I myself prefer that we all adopt a common naming system, which MUTAVI is doing a good job at, for the very reason Stephane explained on another thread.

By the way, to select a Turquoiseblue (bl*tq/bl*bl) on the Genetic Calculator, you also have to click on the Blue selection under the SPLIT column making it appear like you are choosing a Turquoise/Blue. Technically, that too is incorrect since Turquoiseblue is not Turquoise split Blue. No such bird exists. But then that was how Martin Rasek coded the program and it was his preference and I don't really care less since I always refer to the genotype of the bird as the basis.
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