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freaky
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dairy free

Post by freaky » Thu Oct 04, 2007 1:55 am

i know irn's are not allowed dairy and things like chocolate are to be avoided, but my question is this.

my son is on a dairy free diet and has been for years, he uses soya milk, soya butter and a soya alternative to cheese, and most(90%) of the food we buy is dairy free. could we use his milk and butter in small amounts in Sky's food with out causing any problems?

Sky also like chocolate bourbon biscuits, so far he has only had a tiny amount of the biscuit and none of the creamy bit in the middle. i know it says chocolate but they are dairy free other then the usual biscuit mix it has a small amount of coco powder in it. would they be safe to give to him or would it be best not to.

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nil
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Post by nil » Thu Oct 04, 2007 3:35 am

hi freaky
has your son milk allergy or he couldnt digest lactose?
parrots cant digest lactose (the carbohydrate of milk) and milk proteins, so they mustnt eat milk and milk products.
Soya is ok for parrots,the problem will be from cocoa, i think you must avoid give parrots cocoa and chocolate biscuits, or at least give him tiny amounts.
you may find useful the forum<no animal food>,there are many different opinions there...

Fah
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Post by Fah » Thu Oct 04, 2007 3:50 am

Nil where did you find that soy products are fine?

http://www.theparrotsocietyuk.org/genarticle22.shtml

Soy products are quite possibly one of the nastiest things you can feed your parrot. As the effects act like a product called DDT, an infamous pesticide that completly disrupted many situations in the wild.

The effects of soy will not only damage the health of your bird... but also the health of its young if it has any.

Soy products can completly re-wire parts of the hormone system in parrots...

Fah
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Post by Fah » Thu Oct 04, 2007 3:56 am

Note:

New Zealand consultant toxicologist Dr. Mike Fitzpatrick was approached in 1991 by an American rare bird breeder to confirm his suspicion his parrots were dying from their soy bean feed.

After examining soy every which way, the doctor and his team discovered “that soy contains toxins and plant oestrogens" that seriously harm the thyroid.

Hormones play the most vital role in a creatures well being.

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nil
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Post by nil » Thu Oct 04, 2007 4:20 am

ZuPreem Embrace Baby Bird Hand-Feeding Formula Ingredients;
corn meal, wheat flour, oat groats, corn gluten meal, wheat middlings, soy oil, beet pulp, soy protein concentrate, wheat germ meal, soy protien concentrate, dicalcium phosphate, soy flour (heat processed), calcium carbonate, brewers dried yeast, L-lysine, vitamin A supplement, salt, choline chloride, L-arginine, potassium chloride, DL-methionine, ascorbic acid (source of vitamin C), propionic acid (a preservative), mixed natural tocopherols, rosemary extract, citric acid, vitamin D3 supplement, --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kaytee Exact Hand Feeding Formula for All Baby Birds
Size: 18 oz.

Ground corn, ground wheat, corn gluten meal, ground oat groats, wheat middlings, soy oil, dried whole egg, soy protein isolate, dried beet pulp, dicalcium phosphate, calcium carbonate, l-lysine, wheat germ meal, brewers dried yeast, vitamin A supplement, salt, l-arginine, choline chloride, dl-methionine, potassium chloride, propionic acid (a preservative), yeast extract, vitamin E supplement, vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin supplement, ferrous carbonate, zinc oxide, l-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), manganous oxide, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of vitamin K activity), mixed tocopherols (a preservative), rosemary extract, citric acid, niacin, ethoxyquin (a preservative), calcium pantothenate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, thiamine mononitrate, copper oxide, cholecalciferol (source of vitamin D3), folic acid, beta carotene, calcium iodate, biotin, cobalt carbonate, sodium selenite, dried A oryzae fermentation extract, dried bacillus subtilis fermentation extract, dried bacillus coagulans fermentation product, dried bacillus lichenformis fermentation product, dried bacillus subtilis fermentation product.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.petcaretips.net/bird-food.html, http://landofvos.com/articles/sprouts.html
and others

As you seen above all of our handfeeding babies have eat many of soy protein....
soy proteins is ok for birds feeding, i think problem is the whole soybeam not the proteins. And for human consuption used elaborated soy not the soybeam straidht from plant.
Last edited by nil on Thu Oct 04, 2007 7:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

Fah
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Post by Fah » Thu Oct 04, 2007 4:39 am

Unfortunately we were not talking about hand rearing formula, as it was in general perspective to freaky's post about human soy products.

Soy protein is just that.. a unique extractable form from a product. Not the product itself. Though there are "perspectives" that even that is not good enough of a clearance from the product itself.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/food/Story/0,,1828158,00.html

Above is another larger post by the UK Guardian about Soy and parrots.

You have to be very careful of what you read into regarding ingredients of a product over what the dirivitive of the product does. One of the ingredients in one of the products you listed contains potassium chloride... which can be as simple a substitute for table salt... but its also what is used in metal production and part of the judicial execution system in lethal injections :P (stops the heart basicly)

Potassium chloride as much as just a simple product is harmless for a human to intake but so much as being a person.. approximately 70something kilograms in weight... having anywhere from 150g of it in daily consumption is highly toxic.

Everything has to be taken into context of course... but I just dont want this to become an argument where human soya product is good. As it just isnt for birds.

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BigChicken
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Thanks all

Post by BigChicken » Thu Oct 04, 2007 5:10 am

Thanks all, never even thought to check on the health benefits or dangers of soy beans I don’t even recall seeing them on any no-no bird food lists. It doesn’t surprise me that there are processed bird foods that still contain soy. As an avid label reader, I guess I never even thought about it as I have noticed the use of soy in almost every bird product. I know that there is a huge time laps in the pet food industry. The reason soy is in there is that of pure economics rather than an attempt at making a healthy food. Corn is another ingredient that I am concerned about. It is in almost every bird food and treat as well. At a recent P.E.A.C. parrot care seminar, the reduction of corn in parrot diets was discussed. There are some avian vets that have reported an alarming rise in the incidence of birds, mostly parrots that have developed an allergy to corn. I think that Zoo Preem (?) now makes a pellet that dose not contain corn, it uses rice as its main filler grain. Can"t remember if it contains soy though. I gave it a try… unfortunately my flock all hated it! Tried for weeks, but no luck. I now have resorted to reducing their pellet diet to less than approximately 10%. I get up before the sun every day for work and give them their veggies and fruit foods, which they attack as soon as the sun comes up! My wife gives them their grain, seed, nut, and pellet foods a few hours later before she leaves for work.

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Post by Fah » Thu Oct 04, 2007 5:33 am

Freaky I am sorry for how your thread was semi hijacked lol.

Cocoa as nil stated is toxic for IRN's. There are listings of what is good and bad for parrots but I must advise you give them a touch of caution.

What is edible for a quaker parrot may not be for an indian ringneck for example. Parrots are very diverse and their diets even more so.

For example I think its the orange crested parrot (something like that) that actually destroys cocoa crops... yet cocoa in essence is highly toxic to your average parrot.

Thats why I am so glad people come to boards like this. We may not always have the perfect answer... and like this topic has brought up.. a tiny touch of confusion... but never the less. We strive to help. And we do come to an answer eventually lol

freaky
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Post by freaky » Thu Oct 04, 2007 6:19 am

no its not hijacked at all.

i didn't reliase soya was deadly to parrots. i was just thinking my son is not allowed any milk product, lactose, whey, etc and is on a soya products as the alternative, that it was worth asking about for the parrot.

as to the cocoa, i didn't know that either, so far he has had about 3 bits the size of my little finger nail as a special treat, but not no more.

I'm just trying to find things he will eat. his seed/nut/parrot food mix, apple (lots of apple), plum, raisins, and a small bit of toast/bread are about the only things he will eat. he wont touch banana, kiwi, cabbage, carrot, or any other fruit/veg we have given him. porridge oats(with water) etc just gets chucked out the cage. none of the local pet shops do the pellet mix, and with his fussy eating i doubt he would eat them any way.

swanwillow
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Post by swanwillow » Thu Oct 04, 2007 6:39 am

as a reminder, that I like to bring up.. calorie intake.

Parrots only need, depending upon species, 50-500 calories a day.. I'm guessing ringnecks are in the 150 cal/day range... where the largest of the macaws MIGHT hit 500 a day, Budgies and lovvies around 50, some less even.

lets say that one chip has 20 calories.. french fries? yeah, they eat one and thats half their intake!!! fruits and veggies are naturally VERY low fat.

The reason I'm saying this is.. that thumbnail sized portion is probably the caloric intake of your baby for half the day.

Just a word of warning.

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nil
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Post by nil » Thu Oct 04, 2007 8:10 am

soy bean and lupin bean need treatment before eated by any animal or human. All soy products, like soy protein are ok .
Big chicken , you concern about soy and corn, i dont understand why, maybe for the genetic modiffied?

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BigChicken
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corn & soy?.......

Post by BigChicken » Thu Oct 04, 2007 8:24 am

Corn has been added to the list of possible causes of feather plucking and self mutilation, at least in those birds that develop an allergy to it. As for the soy, the articles linked above seem to indicate a potential serious problem when feeding any soy products. Worth at least seriously limiting, or even eliminating the amount of soy in their diets.

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nil
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Post by nil » Thu Oct 04, 2007 12:51 pm

but corn, fresh corn is one of the more basically foods for parrots (a guide to asiatic parrots,abk publication,by syd & jack smith two famous australian breeders for many years ago)and soy is the most widespread food for mammals and birds and fish , worlwide succefully.
There is a misapprehension here, i think. The problems that mettion the others repliers concern only raw soybean, not soy products, but in the market can find only soy products not raw soy bean, and there isnt reason to speak for soy bean.
i dont say before that give to my parrots soy, not at all and there isnt reason to do that, i have say before that i feed my parrots with seeds,vegetables and fruits,(including corn in the summer )only.
the conversation begin with freaks answer for the soy products in small amount in irn food, and i am sure that is safe for the bird, if freaky wants to give it. And i think that it is much more safe than chicken bone, meat, milk , cakes, sweats and pizzas etc.
Except articles for soy dou you know others for meat consuption and cancers and many other ills.
google find 1810000 articles,like the first 2:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=el&ie=U ... consuption
http://www.newstarget.com/007024.html
for soy how many are?
1240000 but these articles says that soy reduce the canser

freaky
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Post by freaky » Thu Oct 04, 2007 2:20 pm

this is getting confusing http://www.skipio.com/Soyamus1.htm say soya is good

but http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz/04yourpets.htm says its not so good.

think i will give soya a miss.

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Post by Elizabeth » Thu Oct 04, 2007 7:38 pm

Syd and Jack Smith are the Author of 'Asiatic parrots- their housing, breeding and mutations'

Its published by 'ABK Publications' - Australian Bird Keeper.

Its a major magazine here.

However I do have disagreemenets with this book, as it suggests IRN's don't make good pets and we have them as pets obviously. Also they only feed a limited type of food and dog food instead of parrot pellets.

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nil
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Post by nil » Thu Oct 04, 2007 11:42 pm

they means that the ringnecks are very demanding and difficult bird than other parrots, this is true.
i dont remember somethink about dog food.
i think they feeding their birds with corn ,seeds and only few vegetables, a poor diet but succeful than they said

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Post by Fah » Fri Oct 05, 2007 12:25 am

OK... I am semi offended that you compare the importance of an issue off a google result count. Not to mention a search of completely unrelated issues at hand in this topic... "canser meat consuption" was your search string... two of which words were even spelt incorrectly.

You searched for three seperate strings in one... which came up with so many hits... compared to another search for one single string of text... and think that due to the lesser amount of found results... its less important.

Also... nowhere did it state that it was "raw soya" that was under the microscope here. But infact.. soya produce.

You will find many ingredients in items that actually serve no nutritional value at all.. but exist completely to aid in the production of the item in question.

Nil... I feel you are trying to tackle the worlds bird health issue instead of determining the issue at hand... soya is good for birds or no?

At this current time... according to breeders reaction to soya related produce... as well as from scientists.. soya is a highly unrecommended item in your parrots diet. Until proven otherwise.. I would suggest you aviod the produce containing it.

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nil
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Post by nil » Fri Oct 05, 2007 2:16 am

Nil... I feel you are trying to tackle the worlds bird health issue instead of determining the issue at hand... soya is good for birds or no?

the soy is not a choice food for parrots but it can be used safe as part of their died as enriched protein supplement.

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Post by kyria » Fri Oct 05, 2007 4:08 am

I too do not feed anything with soya products to my birds, I have heard how bad it can be.

No chocolate or cocoa products.
Nothing with added salt or refined sugar.
No avacado, no apple seeds, no onions, no high fat products.
And of course no coffee, tea, or alcohol.

These are all my basic no no's for my birds.

The regular goods I feed ,amongst the daily fruit and vegi's are;
Hot chillie peppers (good as a natural wormer) and they love them.
A few drops of apple cider vinegar in the water every other day, for general feather and all round health.
Scrambled eggs with the shell ground up in to it, once or twice a week for extra calcium, even though they all have calcium perches.
Angie
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nil
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Post by nil » Fri Oct 05, 2007 4:25 am

A few drops of apple cider vinegar in the water every other day, for general feather and all round health.
Scrambled eggs with the shell ground up in to it, once or twice a week for extra calcium, even though they all have calcium perches.

hi kyria
please tell me more about it
how do you give the egg to the birds? Vinegar for wine is ok?

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Post by Melika » Mon Oct 08, 2007 1:12 am

Because I feel like butting in:

It's apple cider vinegar, not red wine vinegar. VERY different. :lol:

I believe it's Roudybush that has the rice based pellet.

The rest is mostly opinion, and I feel like sharing. :)

Soy: It's debatable whether the prevelance of soy in human diets is really healthy anyway. So I won't feed soy products to my bird. It used to be in moderation and now it's everywhere, like corn.

Which brings me to corn. Corn is a grain. It is not a vegetable. An excess of grains is not healthy. Too many amino 3 acids without the balance of the amino 6 acids.

Nearly all dog foods contain wheat, corn, or soy. And my dog is allergic to wheat and corn. If you add beef to the list you have the four most common food allergens for dogs. What do I get from this? Dog food has been around a long time now and has generally always had wheat or corn since it's a cheap filler. But after all this time, our dogs are becoming sensitive to it. Pellets for birds are relatively new in comparison and already are suspected of causing allergies from wheat.
Something interesting about allergies- you have to be exposed to something once before you can become allergic to it. And exposure over time can increase your chances of having a reaction as your body can no longer fight it.
So to my mind, this means we should be feeding our birds a variety of foods (coincidentally, they do this in the wild themselves) and everything in moderation. Too much of a good thing becomes bad.
My logic may be flawed, critically flawed even, but it all makes sense to me.


As more and more research comes out, I'm increasingly prone to believing pellets are NOT the end-all, be-all food like the companies want us to believe. What if the allergy actually begins with hand-feeding preparations? We just don't know. And so I continue feeding mostly veggies and fruits and snacking on his food while I'm at it. :o

I feed Hane eggs too but hard-boiled. They store well in the fridge and I just cut them up and serve (shell and all) one half for each IRN. ^_^
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Post by alana8819 » Wed Oct 10, 2007 12:21 am

i dont feed cookie soy but isnt unusual how people who become allergic to dairy eat soy and it doesnt appear to harm them my mum is allergic to basically everything from potato to most meat. i find it very interesting that birds can eat stuff that would poison us yet we can eat things that do the same to them it helps to have these sites with what they can and cant eat otherwise there would be alot of dead birdies

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Post by BigChicken » Fri Oct 12, 2007 5:14 am

Alana8819, being vegan, I have been eating soy for years, so when I read the links above, I really started to wonder about it’s safety for birds AND humans. This article http://www.missionislam.com/health/dangers_of_soy.htm , although found in a unlikely place, has convinced me to limit soy as much as possible in both my birds and my self. I have swithched to rice milk. It's quite tasty, and for a treat, my birds love it. But no more tofu....my fav on the grill!

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Post by nil » Fri Oct 12, 2007 6:29 am

Humans can produce 10 of the 20 amino acids. The others must be supplied in the food. Failure to obtain enough of even 1 of the 10 essential amino acids, those that we cannot make, results in degradation of the body's proteins—muscle and so forth—to obtain the one amino acid that is needed. Unlike fat and starch, the human body does not store excess amino acids for later use—the amino acids must be in the food every day.
The 10 amino acids that we can produce are alanine, asparagine, aspartic acid, cysteine, glutamic acid, glutamine, glycine, proline, serine and tyrosine. Tyrosine is produced from phenylalanine, so if the diet is deficient in phenylalanine, tyrosine will be required as well. The essential amino acids are arginine (required for the young, but not for adults), histidine, isoleucine, leucine, lysine, methionine, phenylalanine, threonine, tryptophan, and valine. These amino acids are required in the diet. Plants, of course, must be able to make all the amino acids. Humans, on the other hand, do not have all the the enzymes required for the biosynthesis of all of the amino acids.http://www.biology.arizona.edu/biochemi ... aa/aa.html

soy and lupin is the only plants that have all the essential amino acids, like animal products.
so, bigchicken soy milk and cheese is a complete protein food but rice is dont, rice has only few ammounts of protein and many starch. In japan give at children soy milk,not cows milk for many years without problem.
i am sure,that soy is safe for mammals including human and birds.

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BigChicken
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Post by BigChicken » Fri Oct 12, 2007 6:51 am

Thanks Nil. My goal isn’t to eliminate soy, I just want it cut down. I’m sure I eat way too much, much more than I need. It’s in everything, from the cereal I eat, to the pellet I feed my birds. I think it’s a case of a little is enough for me, and for my birds, since they don’t need it, it may be better to not give them any more than they get in the small amount of pellet I feed them. Freaky's son, being on a non-vegetarian diet, but trying to avoid dairy, might find the rice milk a good substitute that the birds can drink as well. I'm not sure of the truith concerning birds, but better to be safe since they don't need it for a good diet. I respect and enjoy your posts, I am no expert, this is just my opinion.

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Post by freaky » Fri Oct 12, 2007 6:58 am

hi Bigchicken, we tried the rice milk, he didnt like it, so thats why he is on soya. trying to avoid dairy i find is fairly easy, but then ive been doing it for the last 8 years. we just avoid cheap nasty c**p as much as possible, burger, sausages, nuggets etc are only an occasional thing. chops, chicken and fish tend to be the meaty things he has.

the soya question with the irn's was just an idea in trying to find things for ours to eat, other then seed and nuts he will eat toast, bread and apple. everything else gets chucked out the cage.

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Post by BigChicken » Fri Oct 12, 2007 7:05 am

Give this a try. I feed all of my birds early, before they are even active in the morning. I give them their veggies first. When they wake up, they go straight to their food dishes. Good stuff being their only choice, they eat at least a little of what is there. My wife gives them their seed and pellet later in the morning. After just a few weeks, they started to see the fresh as the main meal, and the seed their treet, as it should be!

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Post by freaky » Fri Oct 12, 2007 7:08 am

i will give that a try. i was going to take all seed bits out and just leave fruit and veg in with him, giving him no choice.

i think part of the problem is the people who had him before just left him in the cage and almost forgot about him.

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Post by BigChicken » Fri Oct 12, 2007 8:38 am

At least by giving veg then seed later, they arent going to starve. I wanted to say that I also reduced the amount of seed I put in their dish. By keeping track of how much they leave at the end of the avarage day, and giving them just a little more than I think the'll eat, They are less likely to have that late night snack! If I notice them eating seeds late in the day, I'll try offering a veggie treat in stead. (good advice for humans as well!)

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nil
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Post by nil » Fri Oct 12, 2007 12:35 pm

if at least he eats apple is poorly enough.
try with other fruits (appricot,pear,cherry,banana,orange,mango,grape,peach,etc)
and vegetables (lettuce,carot,fresh corn on cob,brocoli,peppers,cucumber etc)
put large pieces or whole like 1 carot or a half brocoli,few cherries, in his cage and leave them for hours.
i think he will begin to play with them, taste and eat them.
For better give him vitamins and mineral in his drinking water 1 per week

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Post by freaky » Fri Oct 12, 2007 1:55 pm

any food that is wet or soft gets chucked out the cage.
ive tried, banana, plum, orange, mango, grape, kiwi, cabbage, spring greens, broccoli, cauli, carrots, swede, spuds, peppers, tomatoes and boiled egg. he will pick it up and chuck it out the bowl. ive tried a skewer to make a kebab and hung it on the cage he climbed up licked it and ignored it, i left it there for 24hrs and it didnt get touched.

biscuits nuts, and anything crunchy he will eat.

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nil
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Post by nil » Mon Oct 15, 2007 6:12 am

never mind, at least he eats apple, it is enough for him but dont forget the multivitamins and mineral at drinking water one per week.
and continue to give him other fruits and vegetables, i think sometime he ll begin eat them.

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Post by Melika » Thu Oct 18, 2007 12:09 am

freaky wrote:any food that is wet or soft gets chucked out the cage.
ive tried, banana, plum, orange, mango, grape, kiwi, cabbage, spring greens, broccoli, cauli, carrots, swede, spuds, peppers, tomatoes and boiled egg. he will pick it up and chuck it out the bowl. ive tried a skewer to make a kebab and hung it on the cage he climbed up licked it and ignored it, i left it there for 24hrs and it didnt get touched.

biscuits nuts, and anything crunchy he will eat.


What about a bird cookie? BigChicken posted a recipe, here is the link: http://indianringneck.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=5031

Might be worth a try!
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