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Pellet reccomendations

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Alan-P
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Pellet reccomendations

Post by Alan-P » Mon Jan 26, 2015 5:47 am

Hi guys, i was wanting to get your opinions on the best pellets. I am currently feeding Kaytee Rainbow Parrot Pellets but i feel unsure about the dyes etc in it and i feel that the pellets are too big for Eco, i have been looking at other brands of pellets, and so far i have found Higgins Intune Natural Parrot Pellets, Vetafarm pellets and Kaytee. Whats your opinions on these different brands? have you tried these? Should i be feeding a different Kaytee pellets that are smaller?

Thanks Guys :)

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Trinnity
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Re: Pellet reccomendations

Post by Trinnity » Mon Jan 26, 2015 8:24 am

I'm interested in finding some good pellets too. There's nothing around where I live and even the WalMarts are (several of them) at least 30 minutes drive. But I'm going to a Pet Mart about 40 minutes from here next week cuz I'll be in that city for a tooth extraction. Any recommendations on pellets?

I'm looking at the petsmart website and they have too many to list here. Here's the list:

http://www.petsmart.com/bird/food/cat-3 ... _Food_Type

Could you all look at the products at that link and make some recommendations? I'd sure appreciate it.

He gets a lot of fresh fruit and veggies so I'm also afraid he'll reject the pellets....advice?

AJPeter
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Re: Pellet reccomendations

Post by AJPeter » Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:22 pm

Miss K recomends you try out by eating your birds food, so it is down to you which pellets taste best? My bird spits pellets out she can hit a bull's eye at 50 paces!

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InTheAir
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Re: Pellet reccomendations

Post by InTheAir » Mon Jan 26, 2015 5:11 pm

I feed roudybush mostly. I have heard zupreem naturals are just as good. My birds love Harrisons too, but it is hard to get here.
No matter what brand it will still be better than feeding seed!

SkyeBerry
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Re: Pellet reccomendations

Post by SkyeBerry » Wed Jan 28, 2015 12:29 am

I feed Harrison's in part because it is also organic. Prior to that I fed Roudybush. I supplier friend informed me Roudybush is very well accepted by most birds. I fed it before the Harrison's. I also recommend you stay away from foods with lots of dyes.

Trinnity where are you? The location portion of your profile is blank.
Mary

clawnz
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Re: Pellet reccomendations

Post by clawnz » Wed Jan 28, 2015 1:50 am

I have been around this debate many times.
Love the comment "My bird spits them out and can hit a bulls eye.
Well they are pellets and sounds like the bird knows that.

Harrisons are meant to be the best, but like all of them they are not a natural diet for any animal or bird. And when they go off and they do, they get a very dangerous mold on them.
As for any with colour dyes,. Don't go there.
It is not very hard to feed Ringnecks and Alexandrine good quality natural diet, which includes seeds, grains, veges, and fruit.
And the best thing about going natural you can very it as the seasons change.
No bird should be on dry foods, and logics should tell you that.
If you feel forced or cannot be bothered feeding a decent diet, then pellets could be an option, even if it is in truth a poor option. but should never be more than 25% of daily diet.

I have pages and pages of reasons why pellets are not the answer to a birds longevity and good health. But will not repost my files here.
All I can do is ask you for your birds sake research and make you own mind up. And then try to keep it fresh and natural.
Sprouting is certainly one of the best foods you can give a bird. I put Mung Beans up there as one of the top foods for both them and us.

As an example it has taken over two years to what we think was a deficiency and it was done without any medications or pellets.
As always I am willing to put my Fids up as an example of what good condition they can be kept in without pellets in their diet.
Image

Budgie Blue when she came in.
Image

She is handicapped with bad locked up feet, but she does not care. This is what love and good diet can do for them.
Now
Image

Ricky has to be my best example of just what can be done without meds and pellets.
Before
Image

After
Image

AJPeter
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Re: Pellet reccomendations

Post by AJPeter » Wed Jan 28, 2015 1:42 pm

Thanks Clawnz, in Billie's cage today is a quarter of Pomegranite, some fresh sweet corn on the cob, seeded parsley, Mixed fruit bowl, apple pear, blackberries, fresh raspberries, 4 grapes red and white, a mixed veg bowl, sliced fresh carrot, Brocoli, three sweet pea pods,
slice of celery, quartered brussell sprout, a cabbage leaf, a bowl with Kaytee pellets and seeds with some vitamins, sometimes l mix in egg supplement, she gets a small piece of Shaws Egg biscuit every day, besides a small piece of bread for tea. She eats what she wants. She gets yesterday's pellets thrown on the floor of the cage for a snack at night.
I know some people do not have the time to prepare all that and if l take too long she complains like the dickens.

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InTheAir
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Re: Pellet reccomendations

Post by InTheAir » Wed Jan 28, 2015 7:02 pm

AJPeter wrote:Thanks Clawnz, in Billie's cage today is a quarter of Pomegranite, some fresh sweet corn on the cob, seeded parsley, Mixed fruit bowl, apple pear, blackberries, fresh raspberries, 4 grapes red and white, a mixed veg bowl, sliced fresh carrot, Brocoli, three sweet pea pods,
slice of celery, quartered brussell sprout, a cabbage leaf, a bowl with Kaytee pellets and seeds with some vitamins, sometimes l mix in egg supplement, she gets a small piece of Shaws Egg biscuit every day, besides a small piece of bread for tea. She eats what she wants. She gets yesterday's pellets thrown on the floor of the cage for a snack at night.
I know some people do not have the time to prepare all that and if l take too long she complains like the dickens.
And you wonder why your bird keeps laying eggs? *sigh* Do you understand the importance of getting the correct calcium to phosphorus ratio? Or what the energy maintenance requirements are for a bird that size in the environment it lives in?

The more I learn about nutrition, the more I can see how little I understand the relationship between the different nutrients that are essential for a parrots health.

My parrots fly a lot for indoor parrots, but they still don't fly for the miles that they would if they are wild living. They also are not out in the cold so they require a different diet from a wild living bird.

Clawns, can you back up your ideas with some references to scientic studies on why pellets are so bad?

clawnz
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Re: Pellet reccomendations

Post by clawnz » Wed Jan 28, 2015 9:55 pm

Quote: "Clawnz, can you back up your ideas with some references to scientific studies on why pellets are so bad?"

Well where would you like to start? research research research, do not take it that because your vet says you need to feed pellets it is a fact. They are not animal nutritionists. And are only advising as if they feel you are not capable of feeding decent foods. And pellets are meant to cover all bases.
There is not a bird in the wild that eats just dried foods, if it eats any at all.
It does depend on who's pellets we are talking about.
But lets start with what is in a lot of them.
Ground corn and ground soy. This can be as much as 80% and what goodness is there in them? Close to zero, they are there as fillers.
Then what about dyes? A lot of these are only there to keep the owners happy and may not be good for any animal.
Preservatives? Yes a huge number of pellets have these and I think you may be able to find enough evidence about how good these are.
Now what about a bird that would normally get most of it's moister needs from the food it eats. On a pellet diet it has to learn it's body needs to drink much more water due to the dry pellets.
This can lead to kidney and liver issues later in life. Toe Tapping and wing flipping has been quoted in ? sorry lost it, but with a high pellet diet and I do not know which pellet it was.
Quality? Well if you have had Harrisons go off you will know just how dangerous these can be. So while they are one of the best in good condition, they can also be bad when stale.
I will also say they do not have a lot of rubbish in them and that is why they are one of the top ones. Still very expensive and I can buy a huge amount of decent foods for a hell of a lot less.
Man made vitamins and other added ingredients. Well it is a know fact a lot of these do not work the same as natural ones. So I do not have to back this up.
I have a list of sites that I can post if you like and you can read any of these.

I could put it another way.
One teaspoon of Mung Bean Sprouts will deliver a much better source of vitamins, minerals. and trace elements than the same amount of any pellets.
Much better for the digestive system and easy to digest.

clawnz
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Re: Pellet reccomendations

Post by clawnz » Wed Jan 28, 2015 9:57 pm

AJPeter wrote:Thanks Clawnz, in Billie's cage today is a quarter of Pomegranite, some fresh sweet corn on the cob, seeded parsley, Mixed fruit bowl, apple pear, blackberries, fresh raspberries, 4 grapes red and white, a mixed veg bowl, sliced fresh carrot, Brocoli, three sweet pea pods,
slice of celery, quartered brussell sprout, a cabbage leaf, a bowl with Kaytee pellets and seeds with some vitamins, sometimes l mix in egg supplement, she gets a small piece of Shaws Egg biscuit every day, besides a small piece of bread for tea. She eats what she wants. She gets yesterday's pellets thrown on the floor of the cage for a snack at night.
I know some people do not have the time to prepare all that and if l take too long she complains like the dickens.
You are the man. I think that is super. You do go out of your way for your Fids. I kneel before you.
And I thought I was doing good. You put me to shame.

MissK
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Re: Pellet reccomendations

Post by MissK » Wed Jan 28, 2015 11:45 pm

I read recently (online.... maybe at Psittacula World) that before breeding the wild IRNs feed up on fruit and after they go for grains. IF TRUE just that would encourage me to limit the fruits and sugars in a bird I don't want to be in breeding condition or mentality.

People whose minds I respect have differing opinions on what to feed. I've gone ten rounds or more with myself over what to feed and I've settled on "a little of everything, if you please". Ringnecks are greedy little opportunists, not super-selective Pandas. I think they, like us, should get a variety. This is my OPINION.

Mazuri pellets are offered to my birds, but certainly not preferred. I also liked Higgins "In Tune", but in truth, no pellets really rocked my world with their labels. My birds do like a warm human hot cereal mush of various grains, but I'm worried about it seeming too much like love in a bowl, so at this time of year, off the menu. This same product, uncooked, goes uneaten. Fresh organic kale is given every single day, no exceptions. Veggies are "fresh from the freezer", thawed, as well as berries (sorry, fids), with actually fresh veggies or fruits appearing coincidentally as they do with my own meals.

As far as choosing a pellet, if you go that way, I would suggest read the label and ask yourself some common sense questions about the ingredients. Sample questions might be "What are these fake colours going to do to my bird?" "What's in this that makes it good?" "What's in this that makes it bad?" "Are these nutritional supplements bioavailable?" "How long a self life does this have and is that actually a good thing?" "How come this one is so cheap?" "How come this one is so different from the others?" etc, etc.......

Unfortunately for you, once you ask a question you get to research for the answers!
-MissK

clawnz
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Re: Pellet reccomendations

Post by clawnz » Thu Jan 29, 2015 11:11 am

Thank you MissK.
You put it so much more tactfully than me.
You are so correct about diets.
With the Cockatiels at least you can think of it this way.
Seeds winter. Non breeding.
Flowers and veg. Summer breeding season, as the soft foods for feeding their babies are available.
And I think I could say with some confidence this applies to many other birds.

Over night I did think of asking the question.
What is the scientific evidence that says pellets are a necessity. Or beneficial.
Like most things it is so easy to over dose such small animals, And feel that is what you do if you feed a high pellet diet.
And some of the things in some pellets their bodies do not eliminate or have to use resources to get rid of them.

AJPeter
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Re: Pellet reccomendations

Post by AJPeter » Thu Jan 29, 2015 12:25 pm

What's that knife doing in your back? Claire...

I might load Billie's cage with great variety but she picks and chooses, for instance she has gone off pomegranite, but swooped on the corn. She hardly ever touches the cabbage leaf she prefers me to rip it into small pieces. Quite often she does not touch the veg bowl she likes Blackberries, but not raspberries. She prefers pears to apples, grapes hardly ever get touched.

I do agree with Claire that diet plays an important clue for egg laying, Billie laid 14 eggs in January last year, she laid two in October and two in November which she sat on, one this year which she started to sit on but between us it got broken.

I think other factors control egg laying, the amount of daylight hours, the temperature indoors.

Arise Sir Clawnz! But the question remains wild birds in England lay in March/April but soft fruits are not available to them until Sepember/October So why link soft fruits to egg laying?

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InTheAir
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Re: Pellet reccomendations

Post by InTheAir » Thu Jan 29, 2015 12:47 pm


MissK
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Re: Pellet reccomendations

Post by MissK » Thu Jan 29, 2015 10:04 pm

Billie laid 14 eggs in January last year, she laid two in October and two in November which she sat on, one this year which she started to sit on but between us it got broken.
AJ, just one question: At what point did it start to seem like a good idea to help Billie sit on that egg??
-MissK

clawnz
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Re: Pellet reccomendations

Post by clawnz » Thu Jan 29, 2015 10:14 pm

Ok! I have re written this so many times. Trying to not offend any bird owners who believes Pellets are the answer to feeding their bird.
If you listen to some who make Pellets you will of heard that some claim pellets are all you need to feed your bird? Roudybush were the worst offenders with a claim. (100% all you need to feed) on the packet of at least one of their packets of pellets.
False Some people still think that 80% of the daily intake is good? This is not a good option, or even close to what now is thought to be an excepted percentage. Zero being a much better option, when it comes to feeding dried foods.
Myth. Manufactured supplements are the same as natural ones, and are just as good? Absolute Rubbish. Not all man made supplements are as good or work in the same way as natural ones do.
If you still feel the need to feed pellets. 20% to 30% is a more exceptable norm. And will not do any harm with short term use. I will even say short term use may help improve a birds condition! Mainly, but only if the diet was poor before hand. It is the long term use that concerns me and where the problems can surface. This can lead to over dosing. And long term cause health problems.
Other things to take into consideration is. Man made colours, added salt, added sugar. Fillers (Junk Food) like ground corn and soy.
I am going to post links to what others have to say below, outlining some of the dangers of feeding pellets. Please consider going to these links and reading as much of it as you can. Do not take my word for it.
I have done a fair amount to find facts to back up what I feel is right, that if you still find you need to feed pel-lets that amount should not exceed 20 to 30% pellets and the rest made up of good quality seeds and other foods. But as above now feel even this may not be ideal. With Pellets that is. Due to the build up of things in them and that the body will not be able to eliminate / excrete them. So can build to toxic levels.
Pelleted And Extruded Diets. There are a number of links on this page. http://scholar.google.co.nz/scholar?q=P ... CCcQgQMwAA
Then other links.
http://2ndchance.info/birdlover.htm
http://www.avianweb.com/birdnutrition.html
http://www.holisticbird.org/pages/dpelletdebates.htm
http://eclectusparrots.net/pellets.html
http://www.africangreys.com
http://www.healthaliciousness.com/ar...n-A-rich-foods
http://www.parrots.org/pdfs/all_about_p ... 0Diets.pdf
http://www.parrothouse.com/pamelaclark/ ... anion.html
http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=3mz7 ... ds&f=false
Go to Page 54..Where they talk about health issues seen in birds. They do say related to change over issue of diet. And parents feeding
I hope some of you have taken the time to read all of the information on the links I have posted? So where are we?
Some things to consider and research, if you are feeding or considering feeding pellets long term.
No bird anywhere that I know of naturally eats dry foods. This is a very important point when feeding dry foods and the damage they can do. I.E. kidney and or liver problems are very likely with long term use of pellets as a high percentage diet.
Wing Flipping, Toe tapping, Gout, Kidney, Dehydration, Liver, Fillers (lack of nutri-tional value), Iron overload, Malnutrition, moulds, over supply of supplements, some of which should not be fed to our captive birds in the first place, lack of forage interest, repetitive diet (think the same as MacDonald's day after day for up to 60yrs. And a few other things you will of found commented on in the links. One comment on A.A. was that pellets are a good option for someone who does not know what to feed their bird/birds. Should they even have a bird in that case?
Cancer and Vitamin A. Cancer Protection (*Food Sources Only) - Studies suggest beta-carotene and vitamin A lower risk of many types of cancer.
10 This effect could mainly be from a diet high in vegetables and not from supplements. Vitamin A supplements have been shown to increase risk of cancer.11-13
I have been pointed to this while researching a diet for a Eclectus border.
“Eclectus diets are different to that of any other parrot species. The Eclectus has a longer digestive tract and some can do poorly on seed or pellet diet. Diets high in pellets have been known to cause Eclectus parrots to have an overdose in vitamins which can result in feather destruction, toe tapping and unwanted behaviours such as screaming and aggression. Some Eclectus parrots are more sensitive to their diets than others. Coloured or artificial pellets can also have an impact on some Eclectus health later on in their life”.

There is another catch, at least in America. You maybe finding it hard to find any bird foods that are not adulterated in one way or another. From some of the discussions I have had it sounds bad for the birds there. Grow your own vegs and even consider a patch where you can grow fresh grass and let it go to seed. Safe tree bark, leaf, seeds, and flowers are a very good option. To supplement bought foods. And sprouting is a fantastic way to get them onto good healthy food.
Before you go down the path of feeding dried foods. Please do a certain amount of re-search. It is your birds health and longevity at stake.

This is a short version. The long one is 10 pages long.

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Re: Pellet reccomendations

Post by MissK » Thu Jan 29, 2015 10:24 pm

Claire, I liked your chart. Particularly, I thought Watercress was looking like a nearly perfect source of calcium, because it instantly caught my eye as something almost anyone could grow at home and have fresh on hand. I was interested that the pellet chosen for compare was Mazuri, since that's in their bowls right this minute. I wish there were a comparison chart for pellets. Don't have one up your sleeve, do you?
-MissK

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ellieelectrons
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Re: Pellet reccomendations

Post by ellieelectrons » Thu Jan 29, 2015 10:29 pm

In answer to the original question, I feed my birds mostly roudybush pellets and low carb veges. They also get some treats for training purposes and tiny bits of table food. We do not have a great range of pellets available here and this is the best I've found for my birds in my area.

All avian vets I have spoken to recommend pellets supplemented with fruit and veges. My vet is quite hard core and tells me to also severely limit sugary fruits and sugary veges also. The reason they do not like a seed diet is that they believe it brings on fatty liver disease. They say that poor diet is the number one cause of health problems in birds. "A diet high in seed tends to result in obese birds, so sedentary seed eaters are more likely to end up with fatty livers. Seed diets tend to be high in fat and low in the nutrients biotin, choline and methionine. Over-eating (consuming more calories than are expended daily) can also cause fatty-liver." See http://brisbanebirdvet.com.au/LinkClick ... 3&mid=4644

I believe looking to diets of wild counterparts is helpful but not definitive. Until we can replicate the life of a wild bird in captivity (eg. flying long distances each day), there is no point replicating the diet of a wildbird for captive birds.

I've argued with a friend about the ingredients of pellets being predominantly soy and corn based. I was worried that they were just using "cheap rubbish" for our bird's pellets and his argument was that if the pellet has been Scientifically formulated for the "correct" balance in nutrients including vitamins and minerals that birds need, that is more important than the original ingredients. There are of course arguments about what that "correct" balance should be for each different bird species and not enough is really known to be sure this is perfectly right for each species of bird, which is why I also supplement with fresh food.

My vet has also been known to lecture me on the fact that just because a bird prefers a certain food and will eat it over others, it doesn't mean it's the best food for them. For example, if I went on taste value alone, I'd probably eat potato crisps all day every day.

Any way, that's my two cents worth.

I would also appreciate it if future posts would refrain from personal jibes at any party... there have been a number on both sides of this argument.

Ellie.

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ellieelectrons
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Re: Pellet reccomendations

Post by ellieelectrons » Fri Jan 30, 2015 1:55 am

Hi Clawnz

I was posting my previous post at exactly the same time you and Miss K posted your messages.

Thanks for the links you sent through. I've only looked at the first one so far (https://scholar.google.co.nz/scholar?q= ... CCcQgQMwAA) but I couldn't see anything on there relating to birds. Most links were for fish, one was for pigs and one was about poultry (I believe that one was saying pellets were better than an extruded diet, not that I know what an extruded diet means). Did I miss something?

I'll check out the other links too.


Ellie.

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Re: Pellet reccomendations

Post by MissK » Fri Jan 30, 2015 8:00 am

Hey, we three must be cosmically linked! Too cool!

I *believe* extrusion is simply the term for how some foods (for animals and for humans) are formed into those nifty shapes. I'm getting a visual of that Play Doh crank toy that lets you make Play Doh spaghetti............... Willing to stand corrected if need be.

Ellie, your point about replicating the natural diet versus our inability to replicate the natural life for our birds was a good one for me. I've been worked up for some time over not knowing what they are eating naturally out there and subsequently not being able to provide it. I've tried (unsuccessfully) to learn what's growing where they are living. Your point actually helped me relax (just a tiny bit) about that. Thanks!

**Note, to people living in the natural range of IRNs, I would still appreciate knowing what's growing there that they are eating. If you know, please share!
-MissK

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Re: Pellet reccomendations

Post by AJPeter » Fri Jan 30, 2015 11:45 am

MissK wrote:


AJ, just one question: At what point did it start to seem like a good idea to help Billie sit on that egg??
Eggs have two ends MissK a blunt end and a pointed end, it must have been the pointed end that Billie descided to sit on by herself. When there was just one egg it was rolling around the cage until l noticed she was trying to sit on it. But back in October (2) and Nevember (2) l gave her a nesting box with dummy eggs and she was quite content to sit those all day in fact she became very broody, after two months l got sick of it and l took her eggs away. We were bother relieved.

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Re: Pellet reccomendations

Post by AJPeter » Fri Jan 30, 2015 12:37 pm

Claire your table from the Sunshine coast Aviculture Society is so interestign l have printed it out for future reference. My Bird wont eat the high energy values, she hates peanuts, also l saw that the energy values between Mazury parrot maintenance and seed is different but not by a lot.
Thanks anyway

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ellieelectrons
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Re: Pellet reccomendations

Post by ellieelectrons » Tue Feb 03, 2015 3:07 am

Hi Clawnz

I only had time to read a couple of the articles you posted and I'm now wondering if I misunderstood your position on diet. If so, I'm terribly sorry. The articles I read were mostly anti-seed (whereas I had thought you were pro-seed)... most of them also weren't anti-pellets, perhaps anti-pellets in large quantities which may be what you have been trying to say. They are more pro-fresh food (eg. veges). Is that your take on things Clawnz or am I mixed up?

Ellie.

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Re: Pellet reccomendations

Post by ellieelectrons » Tue Feb 03, 2015 3:12 am

MissK wrote:I *believe* extrusion is simply the term for how some foods (for animals and for humans) are formed into those nifty shapes. I'm getting a visual of that Play Doh crank toy that lets you make Play Doh spaghetti............... Willing to stand corrected if need be.
Thank you!
MissK wrote:Ellie, your point about replicating the natural diet versus our inability to replicate the natural life for our birds was a good one for me. I've been worked up for some time over not knowing what they are eating naturally out there and subsequently not being able to provide it. I've tried (unsuccessfully) to learn what's growing where they are living. Your point actually helped me relax (just a tiny bit) about that. Thanks!
You're welcome.

Ellie.

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