How could a parblue behave as recessive to Blue?

Moderator: Mods

Post Reply
Recio
Posts: 966
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:09 am
Location: France

How could a parblue behave as recessive to Blue?

Post by Recio »

Hi everybody,

It has been raised the question of a parblue behaving as recessive to Blue, as follows:

BlueBlue .... Blue phenotype
BlueParblue .... Blue phenotype
ParblueParblue .... Parblue phenotype

Who could try to explain this? Could this be the reason explaining the strange outcomes of Chris' SB?

Regards

Recio
Recio
Posts: 966
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:09 am
Location: France

Re: How could a parblue behave as recessive to Blue?

Post by Recio »

Hi,

IRN patched parblues (at least Indigo and Turquoise morphotypes) act through an activactory mechanism of psittacin production (partial psittacin producers) so that the homozygous parblues show more psittacin than their heterozygous (ParblueBlue) counterparts.

Whenever the amount of psittacin produced by a ParblueBlue is so low that our eyes can not detect it, and the amount of psittacin produced by the homozygous parblue is higher enough to be detected by our eyes, we will find that the apparent behaviour of the Parblue respective to Blue is recessive, as follows:

BlueBlue ... not psittacin at all ... Blue phenotype
ParblueBlue ... a very low amount of psittacin, under our eye threshold of detection ... Blue phenotype.
ParblueParblue ... a higher amount of psittacin, detectable by our eye .... Parblue phenotype.

How to uncover whether a Blue bird is a BlueBlue or a ParblueBlue? We know that very low quantities of psittacin, under our eye detection in normal lighting conditions, can become apparent under uv. Thus, as a first step, looking at our birds under uv should help in detecting those with a very low density of psittacin. Since we know that the expression of patched psittacins increases with age, this uv study should be performed at maturity.

Nevertheless we could always argue that even lower amounts could not be detected by uv, or that the "true" Blue (null mutation) does not exist and it is just a Parblue with a minimal expression far away from our methods of detection,... but those are theoretical situations with no sense in a practical approach.

Regards

Recio
Recio
Posts: 966
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:09 am
Location: France

Re: How could a parblue behave as recessive to Blue?

Post by Recio »

Hi,

The above considerations allow to explain an apparent recessive behaviour of Parblues respective to Blue in ligth patched parblues as a ligth Saphire morphotype.

It has been argued by Chris that SB do not produce parblue offspring when paired to a Blue bird and the possibility of a recessive parblue present in SB has also been evoqued. SB is a morphotype that can be achieved by mixing a Pied morphotype (it can be any of the dom pied types in SF or it can be a DF recessive pied) with a special Parblue morphotype. The Parblue morphotype characteristics are its psittacin distribution (restricted to the saddle, even in adults) and its higher intensity, which are different of the characteristics of the other patched parblues (Saphire, Indigo and Turquoise). A mix of a pied morphotype and a Turquoise allele can produce similar phenotytpes to SB before the adult molting, with psittacins spreading away thereafter.
If SB parblue, with its high psittacin production in the saddle, behaves as recessive to Blue, it will explain why Chris did not get any parblue offspring after mating SB to Blues, but the mechanism of this apparent recessive behaviour would be different than for the light Saphire that we have previously developped. In this case the SB parblue (let's call it saddle parblue) could be a partial blue mutation of a different second Blue locus (Blue2), thus behaving as recessive respective to Blue1, but very probably acting as dominant on Blue 2. A nice experiment to do would be pairing SB x SB. It would allow us to conclude if the Saddle parblue is a ParblueBlue(2?) or a ParblueParblue(2?) as follows:

1. If ParblueBlue:
SB X SB = Dom Pied ParblueBlue x Dom Pied ParblueBlue :
12.5% blue dom.pied(sf)
6.25% blue dom.pied(df)
6.25% blue
25% parblueBlue dom.pied(sf)
12.5% parblueBlue dom.pied(df)
12.5% parblueBlue
12.5% parblue dom.pied(sf)
6.25% parblue dom.pied(df)
6.25% parblue

2. If ParblueParblue:
SB X SB = Dom Pied ParblueParblue x Dom Pied ParblueParblue :
50.0% parblue dom.pied(sf)
25.0% parblue dom.pied(df)
25.0% parblue

The problem is that very probably, in the case the saddle Parblue was a Parblue2, there could also be Blue1 or Parblue1 alleles as split in the parents, and the analyse of the offspring would be far more complicated. In any way we would know, at least, what an homozygous saddle parblue looks like.

Regards

Recio
Ring0Neck
Posts: 1714
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 2:24 am
Location: Brisbane QLD AUS

Re: How could a parblue behave as recessive to Blue?

Post by Ring0Neck »

Hi Recio,

Interesting thoughts.
I got stuck here though:
" In this case the SB parblue (let's call it saddle parblue) could be a partial blue mutation of a different second Blue locus (Blue2), thus behaving as recessive respective to Blue1, but very probably acting as dominant on Blue 2."

If recessive respective to each other, What is SB's gen makeup?
I would have thought you assume SB= Parblue2Blue1 since most have been bred to at least 1 parent being Blue1Blue1, therfore Parblue2 gene would not have been visible being recessive to Blue1Blue1. What i'm i missing?
I'm an Explorer
10% luck, 20% skill, 15% concentrated power of will, 50% pleasure, 5% pain$ and a 100% reason ..I just gotta know
Recio
Posts: 966
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:09 am
Location: France

Re: How could a parblue behave as recessive to Blue?

Post by Recio »

Hi Ringo,

I am assuming SB parblue as Parblue2Blue2 or Parblue2Parblue2, but you are rigth: most of SB have been paired to Blue series birds and thus they are very probably also split to Blue1, but not Parblue2Blue1, since we are talking about different genes. That's why I wrote: "The problem is that very probably, in the case the saddle Parblue was a Parblue2, there could also be Blue1 or Parblue1 alleles as split in the parents, and the analyse of the offspring would be far more complicated."

The interaction between Blue1 and Blue2 genes remains a possibility (non allelic non complementation) and thus we can not be sure of the offspring, but what is sure is that pairing SB X SB will allow to get the homozygous Saddle parblue in any of the hypothesis (parents as Parblue2Parblue2 or Parblue2Blue2, split or not to Blue1 or Parblue1).

Regards

Recio
Ring0Neck
Posts: 1714
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 2:24 am
Location: Brisbane QLD AUS

Re: How could a parblue behave as recessive to Blue?

Post by Ring0Neck »

Thanks Recio,
I am assuming SB parblue as Parblue2Blue2 or Parblue2Parblue2, but you are rigth: most of SB have been paired to Blue series birds and thus they are very probably also split to Blue1, but not Parblue2Blue1, since we are talking about different genes.
Then we are assuming this formula?:
B2B2 X B1B1= B2B2/B1 (a Blue2 Homoz. X Blue1 Homozygous= B2 split Blue1)
that would make B2 dominant over wildtype

If recessive: SB is a Homozygous B2 even if /blue1 pairing it to a Homozygous Blue1 would also breed Green/b1/b2
I'm an Explorer
10% luck, 20% skill, 15% concentrated power of will, 50% pleasure, 5% pain$ and a 100% reason ..I just gotta know
Mikesringnecks
Posts: 218
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2013 11:45 pm

Re: How could a parblue behave as recessive to Blue?

Post by Mikesringnecks »

Hi Recio
I have a problem re understanding the precise function of a second blue locus and how mutations at that second locus might or might not interact with either mutations or a lack of them at the first blue locus.
Are you assuming that both blue loci are sites for the production and distribution of psitticin? If so, if genes at one locus are producing psitticin (fully functional wild type) how or why can we detect mutations at the second locus?
Kind regards
Mike
Recio
Posts: 966
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:09 am
Location: France

Re: How could a parblue behave as recessive to Blue?

Post by Recio »

Hi,

Let's consider two different possibilities concerning the existence of 2 blue loci:

1. Both loci are very closely located (higly linked), share the same origin and similar régulations, are involved in a similar task (Ex: synthesis of two different psittacins). In this case we can expect some kind of interaction between both genes so that they behave as if they were just one gene. This has been previously discussed for Emerald and Blue. In this situation Blue1Blue1 x Blue2Blue2 could produce a Blue bird (genetics: Blue1Wild1, Blue2Wild2, non allelic non complementation). Maybe this is the case of budgies although the two heteroalleles hypothesis also "behaves" true.

2. Both loci are independent, maybe even located in different chromossomes, with different régulations and different functions (Ex: one of them acting on psittacin synthesis and the other in psittacin transport into the Feather). Mutations of any of them, independently expressed, can produce a Blue bird, but in this situation Blue1Blue1 x Blue2Blue2 will produce a green bird (genetics Blue1Wild1, Blue2Wild2).
Let's imagine, in this case, that we have a phenotypic Parblue2. In this situation its genotype would be Parblue2Blue2, Blue1Blue1 or Parblue2Blue2, Blue1Wild1 since most of parblues have been paired to Blue1 series birds (it would be almost impossible to get a Parblue2Blue2, Wild1Wild1). If you pair any of those birds to a normal Blue (Blue1Blue1, Wild2Wild2) it will appear that the Parblue2 apparently acts as recessive to Blue since you will never get any Parblue offspring. Interestingly, in the case of Parblue2Blue2, Blue1Wild1 x Blue1Blue1, Wild2Wild2 we would also get some green offspring.

To make it shorter: if you pair a phenotypic Parblue to Blue and you never get Parblue offspring and/or you get green series offspring you should consider the possibility of dealing with a new Parblue belonging to another locus (Blue2).
Is this the situation of SB? Time will tell us.

Regards

Recio
Mikesringnecks
Posts: 218
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2013 11:45 pm

Re: How could a parblue behave as recessive to Blue?

Post by Mikesringnecks »

Hi Recio
Thanks for the response. At first reading I don't fully understand what you are saying but I will work on it over coming days.
Kind regards
Mike
madas
Posts: 973
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:12 am
Contact:

Re: How could a parblue behave as recessive to Blue?

Post by madas »

Recio wrote: To make it shorter: if you pair a phenotypic Parblue to Blue and you never get Parblue offspring and/or you get green series offspring you should consider the possibility of dealing with a new Parblue belonging to another locus (Blue2).
As said 1000 times in earlier posts Bob Irvine has breed two "parblue" violets from the first saddleback female breed in OZ by Gary Baldwin.
So your theory unfortunately fails.

madas
Recio
Posts: 966
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:09 am
Location: France

Re: How could a parblue behave as recessive to Blue?

Post by Recio »

Hi Madas,

This si a theoretic frame to generally explain an apparent recessive behaviour of a parblue respective to Blue, in two different situations: phenotypic Saphire like birds (very low concentration of psittacins) and high concentration of psittacins (which could match the SB debate).

In the particular case of Bob Irvine's parblues bred from a SB line I am still waiting for the pics of parblue offspring at maturity, to be sure that the psittacins are retained in the saddle area and do not spread away, thus pointing to the presence of Turquoise in the mix, which of course is an allele of Blue (1). Do you have exact information from other breeders of SB, or even from Irvine & Gary, to know if the offspring ratio of parblues in the offspring from SB x Blue series bird is matching the expected 50%?

I am not saying that SB is a new mutation. I think that it is a combo of a pied and a parblue. From the very first reports it seems that this parblue is not like the other patched parblues, and as far as I know, we only have one nest from Irvine suggesting that it is another Blue(1) allele. I think that it is not enough to conclude.

Regards

Recio
madas
Posts: 973
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:12 am
Contact:

Re: How could a parblue behave as recessive to Blue?

Post by madas »

Recio wrote: we only have one nest from Irvine suggesting that it is another Blue(1) allele. I think that it is not enough to conclude.
On the one hand you are excepting that a single unexpected offspring could prove resp. disprove a theory (for example: single green offspring from a pair bronze fallow x NSLino or a pair cleartail x bronze fallow is prove enough for be not allelic) and now you are claiming that exactly this one (here two) are not enough prove.

:evil: :twisted: :evil:
Mikesringnecks
Posts: 218
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2013 11:45 pm

Re: How could a parblue behave as recessive to Blue?

Post by Mikesringnecks »

Hi Recio
I am still working on understanding your last advice but I will get there in due course. In the interim, I am still not sure what you mean by the term "second blue locus".
Does the term refer to a locus that, in its wild type state, acts to facilitate/control/direct the production and distribution of psitticin. Or is it simply another locus which impacts on psitticin production/distribution, much like several different loci, other than the "ino"locus. act on the production/distribution of eumelanin?
If I understand this issue clearly it may help me with the other.
Kind regards
Mike
Mikesringnecks
Posts: 218
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2013 11:45 pm

Re: How could a parblue behave as recessive to Blue?

Post by Mikesringnecks »

Hi Recio
One very simple question, is madas Stefan (Ma Das) or Lee or someone else?
Kind regards
Mike
Recio
Posts: 966
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:09 am
Location: France

Re: How could a parblue behave as recessive to Blue?

Post by Recio »

Mikesringnecks wrote:Hi Recio
One very simple question, is madas Stefan (Ma Das) or Lee or someone else?
Kind regards
Mike
Hi Mike,

Stefan Adams = Madas = Ma Das = naugthy german boy who should be punished when he hides his real understanding and makes questions already knowing the answers :)

Regards

Recio
madas
Posts: 973
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:12 am
Contact:

Re: How could a parblue behave as recessive to Blue?

Post by madas »

madas wrote:
Recio wrote: To make it shorter: if you pair a phenotypic Parblue to Blue and you never get Parblue offspring and/or you get green series offspring you should consider the possibility of dealing with a new Parblue belonging to another locus (Blue2).
As said 1000 times in earlier posts Bob Irvine has breed two "parblue" violets from the first saddleback female breed in OZ by Gary Baldwin.
So your theory unfortunately fails.

madas
Some updated pics of Bobs parblues from the org. "SB" female of OZ. Thx Bob for your contribution.

violet(sf) female:

Image


violet(sf) male:

Image
Image

bird without violet or dark (sex unknown yet):

Image

madas
Mikesringnecks
Posts: 218
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2013 11:45 pm

Re: How could a parblue behave as recessive to Blue?

Post by Mikesringnecks »

Hi Recio
Another simple question. I have been wrestling with the term you and Deon and others use, namely "second blue locus". To date I have been assuming it means a locus that houses a pair of genes responsible for the same tasks as those performed at the known blue locus. It has recently occurred to me that, it may be, that all the term is really meant to mean might be a locus where genes reside that have an impact of some sort on yellow pigment.
In other words, for example, is a "second blue locus" the psitticin equivalent of a eumelanin locus that controls the visual occurrence of eumelanin to give us, for example, a Cleartail. We might for instance call this say a "fifth yellow locus".
Kind regards
Mike
Ring0Neck
Posts: 1714
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 2:24 am
Location: Brisbane QLD AUS

Re: How could a parblue behave as recessive to Blue?

Post by Ring0Neck »

Madas, Recio, Johan

I bred this strange TurqBlue from my CHF pair that does not fit as a Dark or Turq.Blue.
It is strikingly similar to Bob's (see comparisson pic below).
I had a breeder visiting me a few months back and i showed him the bird in Q. and he asked: Where is the Turquoise?
He asked because bird had almost no Psittacin visible, just a darker Blue bird. after a closer inspection he could see the tiny bit of green on its forehead.

This phenotype explains why SB owners never saw Turquoise bred from SBs. They never kept the non pied long enough (3 months) for Psittacin to appear , hence believing no Turquoise at all.
Also, a 2013 green/chf from same pair, Todd owns it now has no pink in the neckring, not your ordinary Wildtype phenotype.

I am of the opinion that SBs carry the Khaki mutation or is it Oz Cobalt (aka Deep)?
This mutation enhances green color (yellow in pieds) and Psittacin's color is slightly diff to a normal Turq. a rustier color at maturity.


Image

Todd's bird below (reminds me of Kappa's Green "OZ Cobalt" cockbird)
Image

Opinions please.
I'm an Explorer
10% luck, 20% skill, 15% concentrated power of will, 50% pleasure, 5% pain$ and a 100% reason ..I just gotta know
Kappa
Posts: 195
Joined: Tue May 28, 2013 12:02 am

Re: How could a parblue behave as recessive to Blue?

Post by Kappa »

Hi Ben,
Good to hear from you.
Your thoughts on Khaki are very interesting. As you are aware I made made some comments in the past about the possibility of Deep and Misty combos existing in aviaries. Whether it's Misty or Khaki (are the same mutation?) I am in total support of your opinion. I have also mentioned this to Martin as a possibility for the variation that exists in the Deep blues.

Just recently, with the help of Martin, I was able to obtain the dam to my so call Oz Deep green cock.
Martin and I undertook some comparisons with his Deep green hen, my Deep? Green cock and the dam.

What surprised us both, was that as we compared the 3 birds, we were able to clearly see 3 different phenotypes. The Deep green hen was the darkest, the dam was a shade lighter, and my cock bird was lighter still. Furthermore they were all different to the wildtype.

The differences, while subtle, are clearly there and can be easily overlooked unless they are pointed out at which time they become obvious. Which is why I believe the green combos went unnoticed, and have been carried into the blue series birds.

We were puzzled by the variation, and while trying to work out what this might be, didn't even think of taking any photos. :)

In the end what we decided was that Martin's hen was a Deep green, the dam is a Deep Misty or Khaki combo, and my cock bird is just a Misty or Khaki. Hopefully breeding results this season will help confirm all this. Martin will continue to try and produce a df Deep green, and I have paired my cock back to his dam to see if i can produce a df Misty or what ever it is they carry.

The dam is out of a Swales Olive, as they were called in the past, but these olives were actually df Deep greens. From these arose the Deep blues we all know of. I am confident that the Swales Olive the dam is out of, carried something else.

I feel this unidentified mutation has been isolated in my green cock bird. Proof of this is in the "cobalt" looking violet offspring he produced last season.

Ben, that green/CHF cock is similar to mine especially in the photo with flash, but my cock bird is a paler green, he lacks the shade of blue in his primary tail feathers that the wild type have, and his flights have bronze highlights and less depth in green. Sometimes he looks only marginally darker than a Cinnamon green.

The lack of a pink neck ring is definitely different, and not something I have ever seen before in a green series bird, and you're right he has a nice richness in the green that you don't see in wildtype.

Also From the photo, the TurquoiseBlue looks a lot like a Deep TurquioseBlue I have. Interesting results.
Cheers.
Ring0Neck
Posts: 1714
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 2:24 am
Location: Brisbane QLD AUS

Re: How could a parblue behave as recessive to Blue?

Post by Ring0Neck »

Hi Kappa,

That's some excelent ground work you guys did and I think you're on the right track.

I know it is too late to make you change your mind but here is the reason why you should.
Although your pairing is great i think pairing your Green "Khaki" X Mauve would be a better option here's why:

Green "Khaki"/Blue X Mauve
Now that you have isolated & proven this "Khaki" mutation;
You could be the one to prove how Deeps came into existance (Deep's Genotype)
Deep's relationship with Dark,

We will have proven Violet Khaki (from last season) & Dark Khaki ( in Green or & Blue series) from this pairing... Is it the same as the known Deep's phenotype?
If not it points to Deep as a unique mutation & Khaki being just another independent mutation unrelated to Deeps.

Khaki could be the "maker" of Deeps.
How is this possible?
"Khaki-Dark" could be linked
It has been proven that some linked genes are always passed on together.
In this case a "Khaki-Dark Blue"=Deep Blue and all its offspring paired to a Blue will be 50% Blues & 50% "Khaki-Dark"=Deeps
Compare the offspring to sf Deeps of the same age and if 100% identical you just found the key ;)
I'm an Explorer
10% luck, 20% skill, 15% concentrated power of will, 50% pleasure, 5% pain$ and a 100% reason ..I just gotta know
Kappa
Posts: 195
Joined: Tue May 28, 2013 12:02 am

Re: How could a parblue behave as recessive to Blue?

Post by Kappa »

Ben,

I have been planning a similar path to what you have proposed. I have purchased a young mavue hen with the intention of pairing her to my green cock, she is however a late season hatch, and I don't want to risk missing a season with him if she fails to go down. This pairing will happen in the 2106 season. Rightly or wrongly I avoided buying the mature hens that were available as they were split CT.

My aim was to simpliy establish the phenotype of DarkBlue or DarkGreen in the Misty(Khaki) mutation. However, what you are suggesting is plausible and I hope to be able to shed some more light on that with future breeding results.

I believe that all of this is connected to the variation in phenotypes that the Deeps possess. Speaking to Martin, he states that 75% of the Deeps he breeds are of the expected phenotype and the remaining 25% is made up of birds that are either lighter or darker than normal Deeps.

Ben you have come up with a very intriguing proposition in regards to the linked genes. I have only been working on the theory that the birds were combos and trying to isolate the different mutations. Having said that our two separate approaches may prove to have more in common than we expected.

Cheers.
Mikesringnecks
Posts: 218
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2013 11:45 pm

Re: How could a parblue behave as recessive to Blue?

Post by Mikesringnecks »

Hi Recio
I am still trying to get an answer regarding the meaning of the term "second blue locus". I am not trying to be smart or argumentative I simply want to understand what you and others mean when using the term. Is it simply a locus housing a pair of genes that have an impact on psitticin when a mutation occurs at the locus, or does it have some more complex relationship with the blue locus?
Kind regards
Mike
Ring0Neck
Posts: 1714
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 2:24 am
Location: Brisbane QLD AUS

Re: How could a parblue behave as recessive to Blue?

Post by Ring0Neck »

Kappa,

Your plan of breeding is good. The Mauve hen make sure she does not carry Violet.
I suggest we use the term Khaki for now to reference this mutation, there are a few things that does not fit Misty,
Speaking to Martin, he states that 75% of the Deeps he breeds are of the expected phenotype and the remaining 25% is made up of birds that are either lighter or darker than normal Deeps.
I concur with these %s from what i have seen, although these %s leaves the door open for single & double factoring of "Khaki" esp. if this ratio is found only when 2 Deeps are paired together hence your test breeding being of greater importance now that we have isolated the responsible mutation without the Blue, Dark or Violet in the mix.

Your first pairing could be a challange to ID offspring, the more chicks you breed the easier, if results as below you'll have 6 diff. genotypes in Green and 6 in Blue in hens and cocks .

===================================
Shown in Green only: 1,0 Khaki green x 0,1 Khaki D green
===================================


12.5% D green
12.5% green
25% Khaki D green
25% Khaki green
12.5% Khaki(DF) D green
12.5% Khaki(DF) green
-----------------------------------
Most likely after the 2nd pairing in 2016 you will have the final pieces of the puzzle and everything will fall into place.
I'm an Explorer
10% luck, 20% skill, 15% concentrated power of will, 50% pleasure, 5% pain$ and a 100% reason ..I just gotta know
Kappa
Posts: 195
Joined: Tue May 28, 2013 12:02 am

Re: How could a parblue behave as recessive to Blue?

Post by Kappa »

Ben,

The mauve hen doesn't carry violet. However, I forgot to mention the Deep Kahki hen is split for Turquoise, so no blue chicks unfortunately.

I agree with you 100% that the identification will be a task. :D. No selling off green chicks this season :lol:.

I am planning to do further tests under uv, the subtle difference that is evident visually under normal daylight conditions, becomes more pronounced under uv light. It may help in the identification process. I just don't know if it is the Deep or the Khaki producing the extra fluorescence.
Kappa
Posts: 195
Joined: Tue May 28, 2013 12:02 am

Re: How could a parblue behave as recessive to Blue?

Post by Kappa »

Ben,

Curious what makes you think that Misty is not the right fit?
Johan S
Posts: 1215
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:24 am
Location: Pretoria, South Africa

Re: How could a parblue behave as recessive to Blue?

Post by Johan S »

Ring0Neck wrote:This phenotype explains why SB owners never saw Turquoise bred from SBs. They never kept the non pied long enough (3 months) for Psittacin to appear , hence believing no Turquoise at all.
Very plausible. I have a DF misty hen bred by Dr Deon that we caught out and handled end of December when my wife and I visited him. We both agreed that the bird was a female and a DF misty. Yet, end of January the first green started appearing and it turned out to be a DF misty parblue. A stunning bird non the less, but there was absolutely no indication of parblue initially. To me it currently looks more like a saddle type parblue than turquoise, but we'll know better towards the next summer for the 15 month moult.
Recio
Posts: 966
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:09 am
Location: France

Re: How could a parblue behave as recessive to Blue?

Post by Recio »

Hi Mike,

What a "blue locus" means? It is a place in a chromossome holding a gene which acts on the metabolic pathway leading to the expression of psittacins (disrupting the production, the transport or the transfert of the pigment into the Feather). Whenever any of the steps is stop, we will get a blue bird.
We call Blue 1 the mutation we all know producing blue birds. We do not know where it really acts, but we usually are talking as if it acts on psittacin synthesis.
We call Blue 2 to a different mutation (hold in a different locus, in the same or in a different chromossome) able to finally produce a Blue bird acting at a different point than Blue 1 inf the metabolic pathway of psittacin expresion. ... and we could still argue for a third or fourth blue locus ...

It is exactly the same reasoning that for melanins: we have two different lutino birds (SL and NSL). We can make the difference between both mutations because they inherit differently, since one of the mutation is present in the autosomes (NSL-Ino) and the other in the sexual chromossomes (SL-Ino). Each mutation is hold in a different locus. Imagine now that both mutations were carried by different autosomes. In this case we would not be able to speak of SL-Ino and NSL-Ino but we would say Lutino 1 mutation (hold in the Lutino 1 locus), and Lutino 2 mutation (hold in the lutino 2 locus).

Regards

Recio
Mikesringnecks
Posts: 218
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2013 11:45 pm

Re: How could a parblue behave as recessive to Blue?

Post by Mikesringnecks »

Hi Recio
Understood, thank you very much. I would like to ask more but I will leave the issue for now because you enlightened my primary area of ignorance.
Kind regards
Mike
Post Reply