Are Clearhead fallow and Violet linked?

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Recio
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Are Clearhead fallow and Violet linked?

Post by Recio »

Hi everybody:

Breeding results from 1.0 Green/SL-Ino-Cinnamon (type 2 linkage) /Clearhead Fallow x 0.1 Blue Violet/Clearhead Fallow. Two clutches of 4 + 2 babies. Offspring results:
2 Green males
2 Green Cinnamon females
1 Green Cinnamon Violet Clearhead Fallow female
1 Cinnamon-Sl Ino (type 1 linkage) Violet Clearhead Fallow female.

The odds to get the last female were 1.5% x 50% x 25% = 0.19% ..... very close to a miracle !!!

My question: from this pairing results it seems that Violet and Clearhead Fallow could be linked. Has anybody else found similar results?

Regards

Recio
Ring0Neck
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Re: Are Clearhead fallow and Violet linked?

Post by Ring0Neck »

Recio,

I didn't notice anything unusual, could be just luck.

Green Cinnamon Violet Clearhead Fallow female
any chance you can share a pic please?
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Johan S
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Re: Are Clearhead fallow and Violet linked?

Post by Johan S »

Recio, how does the SLIno-cinnamon CHF violet look? Do you have a picture? I'm curious, when working from SLIno-cinnamon, how one can positively identify CHF in that combo (is the eye affected and CHF like?), as well as how violet is identified? :?: The odds of breeding such a bird is low as you rightly point out. Ino leaves less than 5% melanin, and on that the identification of cinnamon, CHF and violet was made? Or is it an older bird that have produced offspring to make that conclusion?
Recio
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Re: Are Clearhead fallow and Violet linked?

Post by Recio »

Hi Johan and Ben,

Violet enhances optically the residual melanin and the bird appears with marked primary wing feathers. Body colour is ligth green yellow. I know that clearhead fallow is at work because of the eye. I knew that the male was split clearhead fallow but I knew nothing about possible splits in the Violet female. It was a surprise when I remarked that the eye colour/white ring evolution was not the same in those birds than in their siblings. I have taken some new pics of both birds. I will try to post them later.

Regards

Recio
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Re: Are Clearhead fallow and Violet linked?

Post by Ring0Neck »

Recio,

You can email them to me if easier. happy to upload them if a hassle for you.

from this pairing results it seems that Violet and Clearhead Fallow could be linked.
I found it to be the opposite in the last few years.
Been trying to breed a Turq. Violet CHF for a few years, maybe this year....
Last edited by Ring0Neck on Sun Sep 07, 2014 10:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Are Clearhead fallow and Violet linked?

Post by Johan S »

Recio wrote:Hi Johan and Ben,

Violet enhances optically the residual melanin and the bird appears with marked primary wing feathers. Body colour is ligth green yellow. I know that clearhead fallow is at work because of the eye. I knew that the male was split clearhead fallow but I knew nothing about possible splits in the Violet female. It was a surprise when I remarked that the eye colour/white ring evolution was not the same in those birds than in their siblings. I have taken some new pics of both birds. I will try to post them later.

Regards

Recio
Recio, looking forward to the pic. Have always been curious about the interaction of the CHF eye compared to other fallows and inos.
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Re: Are Clearhead fallow and Violet linked?

Post by Recio »

The pics:

Cin-SL-Ino Violet Clearhead Fallow besides a Green Cinnamon
Image


Cin-SL-Ino Violet Clearhead Fallow besides a normal Green
Image


Cin-SL-Ino Violet Clearhead Fallow, IndigoBlue SL-Ino and a Green Cinnamon Violet Clearhead Fallow
Image


The overall yellow colour of Cin-SL-Ino Violet Clearhead Fallow is easier to detect under direct sun ligth. Not high quality pics but you can see what they look like.


Regards

Recio
Last edited by Recio on Fri Sep 05, 2014 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Are Clearhead fallow and Violet linked?

Post by Ring0Neck »

Thanks Recio for the pics.

I was expecting a much lighter phenotype, more like my pic below.
Interesting.
Attachments
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Recio
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Re: Are Clearhead fallow and Violet linked?

Post by Recio »

Hi Ben,

I think that the remaining melanin is enhanced by the presence of Violet. I have never seen any other pic of SL-Ino-Cinnamon but descriptions say that it is a light green yellowish bird. What about the more marked primary wing feathers? Would it be the result of Cinnamon + Violet or could also Clearhead Fallow be involved?

Those females (Cin-SL-Ino Violet Clearhead Fallow and a Green Cinnamon Violet Clearhead fallow) seem to show a ligther head, as males do after reaching sexual maturity. I will follow how they evolve. Probably, in ligth birds, even females Clearhead Fallow can show the ligther head but less marked than males. Anyway the Cin-SL-Ino Violet Clearhead Fallow is a good candidate to develop a pure yellow head. We'll see.

Regards

Recio
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Re: Are Clearhead fallow and Violet linked?

Post by Johan S »

Recio, Cinnamon-SLIno birds are born as ino's. It is only as they mature that the light green shade starts coming through.
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Re: Are Clearhead fallow and Violet linked?

Post by Recio »

Johan S wrote:Recio, Cinnamon-SLIno birds are born as ino's. It is only as they mature that the light green shade starts coming through.
Hi Johan,

This is the classic description, but I could see my bird was a Cinnamon-SLIno from feathering in the nest. As I wrote, probably this is due to the presence of Violet enhancing the residual melanin.

Probably, as you say, Cin-SLIno appear like lutinos in the nest, but this bird show that melanin is already present in the bird although it could not be readily visible if structural mutations enhancing melanin are not present.

Regards

Recio
madas
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Re: Are Clearhead fallow and Violet linked?

Post by madas »

Recio wrote:
Johan S wrote:Recio, Cinnamon-SLIno birds are born as ino's. It is only as they mature that the light green shade starts coming through.
Hi Johan,

This is the classic description, but I could see my bird was a Cinnamon-SLIno from feathering in the nest. As I wrote, probably this is due to the presence of Violet enhancing the residual melanin.

Probably, as you say, Cin-SLIno appear like lutinos in the nest, but this bird show that melanin is already present in the bird although it could not be readily visible if structural mutations enhancing melanin are not present.

Regards

Recio
Hm i have my doubts too. Violet is structual so why should it change the melanin synthesis? It is truly not the case for a violet ino combo which is still looking like a ino. For most other species we know that a combo of ino and cinnamon look nearly ino except for small grey brown regions.

I think here is something different at work.

madas
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Re: Are Clearhead fallow and Violet linked?

Post by madas »

Recio wrote: Cin-SL-Ino Violet Clearhead Fallow, IndigoBlue SL-Ino and a Green Cinnamon Violet Clearhead Fallow
Image
Are you sure the bird on the right is a cinnamon chf violetgreen? Can't see any marker for chf beside the light head. But this could be a marker for cinnamon as well.

madas
Carr.birds
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Re: Are Clearhead fallow and Violet linked?

Post by Carr.birds »

Recio

I bred and own a cinnamon-ino/blue female and her change in phenotype from birth to maturity is spot on as decribed by Johan. I understand your point about the presence of the dark factor but my hen display a light head almost like a pallid.

How old is the cinn-ino chf hen and will her body colour get darker to end up with a darker body and lighter head (contrast clearly visible)

Can't upload pics from here but will send you an old pic of the hen

Tienie
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Re: Are Clearhead fallow and Violet linked?

Post by madas »

Carr.birds wrote:Recio

I bred and own a cinnamon-ino/blue female and her change in phenotype from birth to maturity is spot on as decribed by Johan. I understand your point about the presence of the dark factor but my hen display a light head almost like a pallid.

How old is the cinn-ino chf hen and will her body colour get darker to end up with a darker body and lighter head (contrast clearly visible)

Can't upload pics from here but will send you an old pic of the hen

Tienie
Pic of Tienies bird:

Image

highres:

http://img5.fotos-hochladen.net/uploads ... u3sx90.jpg
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Re: Are Clearhead fallow and Violet linked?

Post by madas »

Thx for the pic Tienie but this bird still looks to dark for being a cinnamon-ino in my eyes. Do you have a side by side pic with a pallid green to compare both?

madas
Johan S
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Re: Are Clearhead fallow and Violet linked?

Post by Johan S »

Madas, if I recall, this bird of Tienie was test bred to confirm genotype. I don't recall the details, but Tienie can confirm.

PS: you beat me to uploading the picture. :lol:
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Re: Are Clearhead fallow and Violet linked?

Post by madas »

Johan S wrote:Madas, if I recall, this bird of Tienie was test bred to confirm genotype. I don't recall the details, but Tienie can confirm.
Hm, but even a pallidIno is lighter in phenotype which is a combo of two alleles from the same locus and is expressing a blended phenotype of both mutations. So i would have assumed that a combo cinnamon and ino which aren't alleles of the same locus but closely linked would express the same color depth or an even lighter phenotype (having SLino as one part in mind).

So in my opinion something isn't fitting here. :(

madas
Recio
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Re: Are Clearhead fallow and Violet linked?

Post by Recio »

madas wrote:
Hm i have my doubts too. Violet is structual so why should it change the melanin synthesis? It is truly not the case for a violet ino combo which is still looking like a ino. For most other species we know that a combo of ino and cinnamon look nearly ino except for small grey brown regions.

I think here is something different at work.

madas
Hi Madas,

You are rigth: violet mutation does not increase melanine, and I have never written such a thing. I wrote that Violet enhances the optical perception of melanin, but certainly, as you say, it can not increase the amount of melanin.

I would be really happy if you were rigth and there was something different at work (a new mutation? :D )

Regards

Recio
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Re: Are Clearhead fallow and Violet linked?

Post by Recio »

Carr.birds wrote:Recio

I bred and own a cinnamon-ino/blue female and her change in phenotype from birth to maturity is spot on as decribed by Johan. I understand your point about the presence of the dark factor but my hen display a light head almost like a pallid.

How old is the cinn-ino chf hen and will her body colour get darker to end up with a darker body and lighter head (contrast clearly visible)

Can't upload pics from here but will send you an old pic of the hen

Tienie
Hi Tienie,

My hen also shows a pallid like head and I will follow how the phenotype evolves in the months to come. Now she is only 4-5 months old. Is the pallid like head due to the presence of clearhead fallow as her eye tells us? Is it due to the presence of Cinnamon? :(
The real colour is different under direct sun ligth (almost like a lutino) than under the shadow (like in the pic).

Regards

Recio
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Re: Are Clearhead fallow and Violet linked?

Post by Carr.birds »

Stefan

My hen was bred from a cinnamon/lutino cock and blue hen. Born as lutino and slowly progressed to this darker phenotype. I produced cinnamon-ino in Splendids and can assure your its darker in phenotype when matured compared to lutino (your thinking)

Recio

Your bird is very young and we will see a change with her next moult and another with her 27 month moult.

Tienie
Johan S
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Re: Are Clearhead fallow and Violet linked?

Post by Johan S »

madas wrote:Hm, but even a pallidIno is lighter in phenotype which is a combo of two alleles from the same locus and is expressing a blended phenotype of both mutations. So i would have assumed that a combo cinnamon and ino which aren't alleles of the same locus but closely linked would express the same color depth or an even lighter phenotype (having SLino as one part in mind).
Madas, the problem here is that your assumption is flawed. Just because two alleles of the same locus (say pallid and SLino) behave in one way, doesn't guarantee that two mutations at different loci (say cinnamon and SLino), but close to those two alleles, will behave in the same way too. We can't even assume that because two alleles behave in a certain way, that the introduction of a third allele will be guaranteed to behave in the same way too.
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Re: Are Clearhead fallow and Violet linked?

Post by madas »

Johan S wrote:
madas wrote:Hm, but even a pallidIno is lighter in phenotype which is a combo of two alleles from the same locus and is expressing a blended phenotype of both mutations. So i would have assumed that a combo cinnamon and ino which aren't alleles of the same locus but closely linked would express the same color depth or an even lighter phenotype (having SLino as one part in mind).
Madas, the problem here is that your assumption is flawed. Just because two alleles of the same locus (say pallid and SLino) behave in one way, doesn't guarantee that two mutations at different loci (say cinnamon and SLino), but close to those two alleles, will behave in the same way too. We can't even assume that because two alleles behave in a certain way, that the introduction of a third allele will be guaranteed to behave in the same way too.
Maybe my first description wasn't the best one. So here another try explained for the ino locus:

We have 3 distinct mutated phenotypes: pallid, pallidIno and ino. The heterozygous expression pallidIno is always displaying an intermediate phenotype between its two homozygous counter parts. So the Ino mutation is no longer able to fully prevent the production of the melanins. And this behavior could only be achieved then combining Ino with another mutated allele of the ino locus.
Combining Ino with another mutation which isn't an allele of the ino locus should result in a fully (nearly) prevention of melanin prodcution. Cinnamon isn't able to bring back any melanin which is gone by Ino because cinnamon isn't altering the quantity. It is altering the quality. Means if cinnamon is in a birds make up only brown melanins are build but the quantity isn't effected. So if ino is removing around 95-98% (remember green resp. blue sheen in sunlight) of the melanins then there are only 2-5% left on which cinnamon could act. But Tienies bird is showing an overall melanin level of around 40-50% which is 10-20% higher as for the case of a pallidIno. The linkage between Ino and Cinnamon could change this but not in such a big scale.

So Tienies bird isn't follwing the scientific findings for Ino and Cinnamon.

Attached some pics which are described as cinnamon-inos in OZ:

Image
Image
Image

For my eyes they are perfectly fitting the assumed phenotype of a cinnamon-ino crossover.

madas
Recio
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Re: Are Clearhead fallow and Violet linked?

Post by Recio »

madas wrote:Combining Ino with another mutation which isn't an allele of the ino locus should result in a fully (nearly) prevention of melanin prodcution. Cinnamon isn't able to bring back any melanin which is gone by Ino because cinnamon isn't altering the quantity. It is altering the quality. Means if cinnamon is in a birds make up only brown melanins are build but the quantity isn't effected.
Hi Madas,

I had the same idea that you have just developped... but it is not true. A Cinnamon-SL-Ino combo shows an increase in melanin (brown melanin) quantity respective to the amount of residual melanin (black melanin) present in a SL-Ino bird. This is due to a feedback effect on melanin synthesis. This was very well explained by Terry in the Yahoo forum.

Regards

Recio
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Re: Are Clearhead fallow and Violet linked?

Post by madas »

Recio wrote: I had the same idea that you have just developped... but it is not true. A Cinnamon-SL-Ino combo shows an increase in melanin (brown melanin) quantity respective to the amount of residual melanin (black melanin) present in a SL-Ino bird. This is due to a feedback effect on melanin synthesis. This was very well explained by Terry in the Yahoo forum.
Yeah a little "feedback effect" was already admitted by me.
madas wrote: The linkage between Ino and Cinnamon could change this but not in such a big scale.
But your and Tienies bird is showing a huge "feedback effect". The flights of your bird look more green then brown or white like for a lutino. So the "feedback effect" which is only bringing back brwon melanins is able to switch back the white color of the flights to a green color. :?: :?: :?: :?: :?:

So still not convinced because i have always the true lacewing budgie in mind.

Image
Image

I still like to learn and change my mind. So do have a concrete source (link) to the explanation in the yahoo group???

thx.
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Re: Are Clearhead fallow and Violet linked?

Post by Recio »

Hi Madas,

I will look for the link.
In fact in real life my hen colour is similar to the lacewing budgi you have just posted.

Regards

Recio
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Re: Are Clearhead fallow and Violet linked?

Post by Recio »

I have not found the file I was looking for but those here:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Gen ... /topics/10
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Gen ... ages/14630

Hope it helps

Recio
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Re: Are Clearhead fallow and Violet linked?

Post by madas »

Recio wrote:I have not found the file I was looking for but those here:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Gen ... /topics/10
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Gen ... ages/14630

Hope it helps

Recio
Hi Recio,

after reading through the whole discussion i only found one sentense which is mentioning the effect you talked about. But there was no concrete description of it. :(
The discussion is from 1999 and Inte and Terry had distinct views on the TRP1 resp. TRP2 locus. So not very up to date. So are there some new findings regarding this topic?

madas
Recio
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Re: Are Clearhead fallow and Violet linked?

Post by Recio »

... and here is the good post (2011): https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Gen ... ages/20358
The important part of Terry's answer:

Cinnamon and SL-ino mutations in IRN

Recio

These loci are not unique to parrots and their juxtaposition is no where near as close in other species of animals.

The cinnamon locus is the TRP1 locus, I think I read somewhere that evolutionarily it was a duplication of the Tyrosinase locus which in parrots is autosomal.

The sex-linked ino locus codes for MATP, a protein that transports tyrosinase, TRP1 and TRP2 into the forming melanosomes. This is the reason why it interacts with the TRP1 locus.

It seems that null mutations of the MATP locus do not completely inhibit transport of the three melanogenesis proteins, with all three still being present in very small quantities in melanosomes. If we add a null mutation of the TRP1 locus (a Cinnamon gene) to the genotype, it seems a greater quantity of tyrosinase is able to be transported without the presence of TRP1 (reduced competition for transport?) and hence slightly more pigment is produced than is normally seen in a sex-linked ino phenotype.

It would be logical to theorise that mutants of the TRP2 locus might create similar interaction with the sex-linked ino. However to date we have not been able to identify what a mutation of the TRP2 locus would look like in Parrots to test the theory.

Both of these loci evolved a very long time in the past, as they are present not just in birds but also mammals and probably all vertebrates.

Terry


Regards

Recio
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Re: Are Clearhead fallow and Violet linked?

Post by Recio »

Ring0Neck wrote:Recio,

You can email them to me if easier. happy to upload them if a hassle for you.

from this pairing results it seems that Violet and Clearhead Fallow could be linked.
I found it to be the opposite in the last few years.
Been trying to breed a Turq. Violet CHF for a few years, maybe this year....
Sorry Ben, I did not see your post.

When two mutations are linked they will pass together to the offspring very easily (linkage type 1) or it would be almost impossible to pass both of them together to the offspring (linkage type 2). In fact your results and mines show the same thing : probable linkage between both mutations.

Regards

Recio
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Re: Are Clearhead fallow and Violet linked?

Post by Recio »

Recio wrote:Hi everybody:

Breeding results from 1.0 Green/SL-Ino-Cinnamon (type 2 linkage) /Clearhead Fallow x 0.1 Blue Violet/Clearhead Fallow. Two clutches of 4 + 2 babies. Offspring results:
2 Green males
2 Green Cinnamon females
1 Green Cinnamon Violet Clearhead Fallow female
1 Cinnamon-Sl Ino (type 1 linkage) Violet Clearhead Fallow female.

The odds to get the last female were 1.5% x 50% x 25% = 0.19% ..... very close to a miracle !!!

My question: from this pairing results it seems that Violet and Clearhead Fallow could be linked. Has anybody else found similar results?

Regards

Recio
Let's calculate probabilities. Which would be the probability of getting only birds with or without Violet-Clearhead fallow (I will not consider the other mutations and I will calculate not considering any linkage).
Probability for a bird to show both mutations = 25%
Probability for a bird of not showing any of those mutations = 25%
Probability for a bird to show one or the other mutation = 50%

Which would be the probability of getting all the birds (6) with both mutations or no one mutation?
It will be (25% + 25%) x (25% + 25%) x (25% + 25%) x (25% + 25%) x(25% + 25%) x (25% + 25%) = 1.56%
In fact all the birds (100%) are showing both mutations or no one mutation.

It can be done the other way: Probability to get one single bird in a clutch of six to show one or the other mutation = 50% + 25% + 12.5% + 6.25% + 3.12% + 1.56% = 98.44%. In fact no one single bird (0%) with one or the other mutation has been produced.

Those results highly point to such a linkage. It would be great to pull results from Ben to add consistency to this idea.

Regards

Recio
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Re: Are Clearhead fallow and Violet linked?

Post by madas »

Hi Recio,

here is a pic of a possible cinnamon-ino blue breed this season here in Germany. Unfortunately the bird died caused by a crash followed by a neck fracture. :(
Do you see the soft brownish overlay? This is the pheneotype i would expect for such a bird. Your cinnamon-lutino looks much more darker.

Image
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Re: Are Clearhead fallow and Violet linked?

Post by Recio »

Hi Madas,

My Cinnamon SL-Ino was ligther in the nest and get some steps darker later. It is also violet, which could explain the darker colour, since Violet is able to enhance any residual melanin (do you remember Deon's Violino, in fact Violet Blue NSL-Ino? He showed far more melanin related colour than expected). Maybe also the bird in the pic was too young to have completelly developed the phenotype. My female is doing fine and I will post some pics after her 15 month moult.

Regards

Recio
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Re: Are Clearhead fallow and Violet linked?

Post by Mikesringnecks »

Hi Recio
Just as a matter of passing/limited relevance there was discussion with Willy on another forum regarding the fact that Violet and Emerald seem to interact visibly quite differently (unexpectedly) as compared to Dark and Emerald.
Kind regards
Mike
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