SL Edged and Cinnamon: alleles or mutations?

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Recio
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SL Edged and Cinnamon: alleles or mutations?

Post by Recio »

Hi everybody,

Let's think about the possibility that SL-Edged and Cinnamon were different alleles of the same locus. I am absolutelly sure that this possibility has already pup up in somebody's mind :wink: . I propose you all to list the reasons for and against this hypothesis.

The first and more important reason against this idea comes from the inheritance pattern: SL Edged is dominant, and when years ago it was described, people thougth that it was an autosomal mutation. It was only recently that it was described as a dominant SL mutation.

In our usual way of thinking every mutated allele behaves always the same way respective to the wild allele. Ex: SL-Ino and Pallid are both recessive respectiv to the wild allele. So in our minds we do not automatically accept the possibility that a dominant mutation and a recessive mutation could be different alleles of the same gene (locus). But this is not true and I will try to prove it:

Let's imagine 3 different alleles of the same locus showing the following order of dominance: A > B > C. Now let's imagine their behaviour depending which one becomes the most prevalent in different environements:
1. A is the most prevalent ... it means that A is the wild gene. The behaviour of B and C respective to A would be recessive.
2. B is the most prevalent ... it means that B is the wild gene, and , thus, A will behave as dominant and C will behave as recessive.
3. C is the most prevalent ... it means that C is the wild gene, and both A and B will behave as dominant.

In the present situation, the second possibility would explain that SL-Edged (A) behaves as dominant respective to the wild gene (B), and that Cinnamon (C) behaves as recessive respective to the wild gene (B).

As Deon likes to say: Comments, please.

Recio
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Re: SL Edged and Cinnamon: alleles or mutations?

Post by Ring0Neck »

Recio,

This is a tough nut to crack . My brain keeps resetting half way through :lol:


I like the challenge though & i'm sure others will have a real crack at it, i guess anyone attempting this better have some free time & a bit of Yoga might also help :D
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Re: SL Edged and Cinnamon: alleles or mutations?

Post by Recio »

Ring0Neck wrote:Recio,

This is a tough nut to crack . My brain keeps resetting half way through :lol:


I like the challenge though & i'm sure others will have a real crack at it, i guess anyone attempting this better have some free time & a bit of Yoga might also help :D
It is not so hard. We just should change our way of thinking to get a wider vision. Come on Ben, tell me what is hard to understand before going further. My english is not good and sometimes I feel being misunderstood.

Recio
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Re: SL Edged and Cinnamon: alleles or mutations?

Post by Ring0Neck »

Hard to think at this hour :lol:
(had a long day)
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Re: SL Edged and Cinnamon: alleles or mutations?

Post by Recio »

Let's analyse other facts:

1. Where the cinnamon and the SL-Edged locus are located: they are so closely located that we are speaking about the SL-Edged-Cinnamon-SL Ino/Pallid complex. So it could be that, in fact, both Cinnamon and SL-Edged locus could be the same. For further analysis of the distance between both loci see here: http://www.indianringneck.com/forum/vie ... 26&t=24468
As you can see the possibility of both loci being one and the same is in the intervalle of confidence of our data.

2. The Edged females are similar (equal?) to cinnamon edged females (Tienie's report. See here: http://www.indianringneck.com/forum/vie ... hp?p=91271). Maybe the Edges females and the Cinnamon Edges females are so similar because they are both just Edges females. If SL-Edged and Cinnamon were different alleles of the same locus it would not be possible to get SL-EdgedCinnamon females. We will just get SL-Edged females or Cinnamon females, which is according with the phenotypic results of Tienie.
Please, Tienie, could you input data?

Come on, people. Play the game: which are the reasons for and which are the reasons against this hypothesis?

Regards

Recio
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Re: SL Edged and Cinnamon: alleles or mutations?

Post by madas »

Please let us think about it some days. Isn't a thinking of 5 mins or so.

madas
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Re: SL Edged and Cinnamon: alleles or mutations?

Post by Johan S »

Recio, considering only females, there are three phenotypes, a) a hen with red to plum coloured eyes when young (cinnamon), and two distinct edged phenotypes, b) a dark eyed hen with diluted, but smooth appearance of melanin in the wing coverts, and c) a dark eyed hen with diluted and irregular (patched) appearance of melanin in the wing coverts. c) being a third phenotype, suggests a combination of mutations at different loci. And the strange thing being, Tienie reports that a cinnamon SL Edged combo has dark eyes. It suggests a very interesting process involved in the melanocytes, but I'm not clued up enough to speculate.

Also, the combination of cinnamon x SL edged would produce 100% cinnamon SL Edged male offspring. If that was the case, my believe is that the sex linked part of the inheritance would have been established more than a decade ago. This is an opinion and not a fact. I haven't done the test breeding, but maybe someone else has.

But I do agree that different alleles of a locus can exhibit both dominant and recessive inheritance compared to the wildtype. It took me a while to find a good example (in an effort to convince madas that this is indeed possible; it was another of those emerald inheritance discussions), and the best I could do was the different blood type alleles.
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Re: SL Edged and Cinnamon: alleles or mutations?

Post by Recio »

Thanks Johan for your input.

In fact Tienie words were as follows:
Carr.birds wrote:Stefan

I understand your opinion and agree with it. The only SL mutation it was tested is cinnamon. (SL edged/cinnamon & green). The problem you are sitting with is that it is very difficult to distinguish between cinnamon edged and edged females. I have noticed that in this combination the ruby cinnamon eye darkens and doesn’t assist you in identifying the cinnamon edged females.
Tienie
From his words I understand that he can not make the difference between SL Edged and "SL Edged-Cinnamon" females, because both are showing the same phenotype. Far more, he says that the typical ruby cinnamon eye is not present, but what is present is the dark eye (like for SL Edged females), which, thus, does not allow to make differences between both possibilities. So, from his words (equal phenotype and equal dark eye) I would assume that there are only two phenotypes for females: either Cinnamon or SL-Edged. This sticks to the hypothesis of both mutations being different alleles of the same mutation. Farmore: the allelic hypothesis would explain the unexpected dark eye in the "combo".

1.0 Cinnamon x 0.1 SL-Edged would produce (in the allelic hypothesis) 100% SL-EdgedCinnamon males and 100% Cinnamon females. In the two different mutations hypothesis it would yield 100% SF SL-Edged/Cinnamon males and 100% Cinnamon females. So we must analyse the differences in males phenotype: should SF SL-Edged/Cinnamon males look different that SL-EdgedCinnamon males?
It seems that those males (either SF SL-Edged/Cin or SL-EdgedCin) are different that SF SL-Edged males. I have never seens those birds, but I deduce it from Madas' words:
madas wrote:
Recio wrote: In the past budgi breeders said that Cinnamon should be avoided in their breeding programs because even split birds were one step ligther than pure birds.
And this is my assumption too. So i am saying that mostly 95% of the so called SL Edged(df)-Cinnamons or SL Edged(sf)-Cinnamons are in real only split for cinnamon and the hetereozyguos cinnamon gen is already expressed in the phenotype because of the linkage to SL Edged at the sex chromosome. The true SL Edged(df)-Cinnamon could be the birds of Antonio (Fusi) or the bird in question of Coastal-Birds.
madas
Is it easier to accept that the presence of Cinnamon as split could change the phenotype of SL-Edged birds or accept that the different phenotype is due to a SL-EdgedCinnamon allelic combination? I am not saying that the first idea is wrong. We have long time speculated about it, but only on a theoretical basis (isn't it Johan?). Anyway the odds seem higher for the hypothesis of different alleles of the same locus (just looking et this specific feature).

If the allelic hypothesis was true we could get the following SL-Edged combinations for males:
SL-EdgedWild ... SF SL-Edged
SL-EdgedSL-Edged ... DF SL-Edged
SL-EdgedCinnamon

Those are 3 different phenotypes.

If the allelic hypothesis was not true, with our classic genetics, we could get the following SL-Edged combinations for males:
1. SL-EdgedWild ... SF SL-Edged
2. SL-EdgedSL-Edged ... DF SL-Edged
3. SL-EdgedWild + Wild-Cinnamon ... that is SF SL-Edged / Cinnamon
4. SL-EdgedWild + Cinnamon-Cinnamon ... that is SF SL-Edged Cinnamon
5. SL-EdgedSL-Edged + WildCinnamon ... DF SL-Edged / Cinnamon
6. SL-EdgedSL-Edged + CinnamonCinnamon ... DF SL-Edged Cinnamon

With our classic genetics, numbers 1 and 3 should show the same phenotype, similar for numbers 2 and 5. So with these classic genetics we can get 4 different possible phenotypes for males.

My question: how many different phenotypes showing SL-Edged have been described for males when combining with Cinnamon?

Regards

Recio
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Re: SL Edged and Cinnamon: alleles or mutations?

Post by Ring0Neck »

That's some excelent work Recio!
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Re: SL Edged and Cinnamon: alleles or mutations?

Post by Johan S »

Recio, Tienie does mention a phenotypic difference in younger birds. You just need to read a little further in that topic where Tienie writes:
Carr.birds wrote:It isn’t easy to distinguish between Cinnamon-edged and edged females although it is easier between sf cinnamon-edged and sf edged males. Cinnamon-edged females are very patchy when they are juveniles. It is a dull greyish blue colour bird in the blue series. As they mature the body colour change to a somewhat brighter colour.

Tienie
And in another topic:
Carr.birds wrote:Anthony

Why do you say it is cinnamon, have you seen a grey SL Edged female. We all know SL Edged females are lighter compared to sf SL Edged males, but most people will say it is also cinnamon. All the dom edged females in SB book is referred to as dom edged cinnamon. There is very little difference in phenotype between SL Edged-cinnamon females and SL Edged females but SL Edged-cinnamon females are very patchy when they are young.

Tienie
He doesn't state "equal phenotype". He states that there is a difference in young birds, but not that easily detected. That means, if we extend on his reports by adding cinnamon, that we are looking at 3 different phenotypes (for juveniles). That is a very strong case against allelic interaction. On one of my visits to him, he took the time to show me a young cinnamon SL Edged blue hen and explained the 'patchiness' concept to me. After that, it became very apparent what he meant. It looks very much like a cinnamon bird in moult, with some bright new and some old faded feathers causing these patches of blue on white (i.e. old faded feathers look like regions without melanin, they are a fawn type colour, brownish white).
Recio wrote:Is it easier to accept that the presence of Cinnamon as split could change the phenotype of SL-Edged birds or accept that the different phenotype is due to a SL-EdgedCinnamon allelic combination? I am not saying that the first idea is wrong. We have long time speculated about it, but only on a theoretical basis (isn't it Johan?). Anyway the odds seem higher for the hypothesis of different alleles of the same locus (just looking et this specific feature).

Recio
For me, that's an easy question. It is much easier to accept the first option to the second. :D And I also think the odds of option 1 are higher. Two reasons for that: 1) I know for sure that one can see certain classic recessive traits in heterozygous birds. ADM pied, opaline, fallow, you mention cinnamon in the budgie, etc. There have been many such reports all over the globe. 2) I have a hard time accepting that the specialist SL Edged / cinnamon / misty combo European breeders would have missed allelic interaction over the 10+ years they've been at it.

PS: I have not ventured into the territory of male birds. I feel the females already tell the story. :)
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Re: SL Edged and Cinnamon: alleles or mutations?

Post by Recio »

Johan S wrote: PS: I have not ventured into the territory of male birds. I feel the females already tell the story. :)
... but Johan, do you still believe in females stories? :lol: Let's see:

1. It has been detected a little transitory difference in juvéniles between SL-Edged females and SL-Edged-Cinnamon combos. Does it mean that this difference comes from the cinnamon gene? We should prove that the cinnamon gene is present in such female by pairing her to a Cinnamon cock. This little transitory difference could be due to minor genes coming from the Cinnamon parent, and not necesserelly by the presence of the Cinnamon gene in that female. Has it been proved with other females from other strains?

2. The dark eye of such possible combo is not explained by the 2 mutations hypothesis.

3. It is hard to believe that we can get the same final phenotype with a SL-Edged female than with a SL-Edged Cinnamon female, because the first mutation would be acting on black eumealnin and in SL-Edged Cinnamon combo the pigment at work would be Brown melanin. How could we get the same final phenotype in birds owing different pigments which are known to be expressed phenotypically different?
Some data from Inte: he has never found both black and Brown eumelanin in the same bird. Something else: yesterday he wrote to me saying that he has never analyzed any Feather from SL-Edged IRN.

Possibilities:
3.1: SL Edged would act on the deposition of melanin in the Feather (classic non proven idea). In this case the addition of Cinnamon would lead to the same deposition of a different pigment (Brown melanine) and the différences should be easy to identify.
3.2: SL-Edged produces brown melanin ( :o ) and when Cinnamon is added we can not see any difference. The edged pattern could be a "side effect". It would be similar to adding SL-Ino and NSL-Ino (the "side effect" here being at the eyes level).
If you go to psittacula world (http://www.psittacula-world.com/EN/Psit ... rld-EN.htm) and you have a look at a Blue Cinnamon male and a Blue SL-Edged male you will remark how they are similar. We can not discard this possibility since Inte has not performed any study in this mutation.
Anyway if both mutations were acting to finally produce the same effect (Brown melanine) I would think in two possibilities:
a) They are two mutations very closely located in the same chromossome, and one of them would have been produced by a duplication of the other (tween genes).
b) They are two different allèles of the same mutation.

As you can see we are in the same situation that with Emerald but I am proning the possibility that they are different allèles instead of different mutations (unlike with Emerald). This is my nasty side :twisted:

I think that an analyse of Feather microstructure by Inte would be highly valuable, and I would like to have the input from Tienie respective to his breeding results for males and females to analyze them under both hypothesis.

Regards

Recio
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Re: SL Edged and Cinnamon: alleles or mutations?

Post by Recio »

Me again,
In the post about the fusi mutation:
Carr.birds wrote:Stefan

Crossover rate of SL Edged and Cinnamon is a lot higher I would say 25%.

That's the hen. I paired her father a Cobalt SL Edged-cinnamon to a cinnamon-ino/blue hen last season. Unfortunately the pair only produced 1 baby, a cinnamon - will have it sexed on Friday. If the crossover rate is as low as 2% SL Edged-cinnamon males would have been very rare (scares) and it isn't the case.

Tienie
Tiene gets around 25% of SL-EdgedCinnamon combo when mixing both "mutations". This is exactly the same odds ratio that we would expect if SL-Edged and Cinnamon were different allèles of the same mutation.
1.0 SF SL-Edged x 0.1 Cinnamon would yield:

Males:
25.0% 1.0 SL-EdgedCinnamon
25.0% 1.0 WildCinnamon (green split cinnamon)

Females:
25.0% 0.1 green
25.0% 0.1 SL-Edged


Now we know from crossing over studies (already explained) that SL-Edged and Cinnamon are very, very closed together (just 1 locus?) and this 25% of offspring ratio (I really think that he is refearing to offspring ratio and not to recombination rate, as we all usually do in "common" language) would not be possible if they were 2 very highly linked different mutations (calculated 3.9% crossing over rate or 1.95% offspring ratio for that specific combo).

Regards

Recio
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Re: SL Edged and Cinnamon: alleles or mutations

Post by Ring0Neck »

Cinnamon were different allèles of the same mutation.
1.0 SF SL-Edged x 0.1 Cinnamon would yield:

Males:
25.0% 1.0 SL-EdgedCinnamon
25.0% 1.0 WildCinnamon (green split cinnamon)

Females:
25.0% 0.1 green
25.0% 0.1 SL-Edged
Recio, Would this be the expected results for below pair if different allèles of the same mutation?

=================================================
1,0 cinnamon Edged x 0,1 cinnamon
=================================================

1,0 50% cinnamonEdged
1,0 50% cinnamon cinnamon
-------------------------------------------------
0,1 25% SL-Edged
0,1 50% cinnamonEdged
0,1 25% cinnamon
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Re: SL Edged and Cinnamon: alleles or mutations

Post by madas »

Ring0Neck wrote: Recio, Would this be the expected results for below pair if different allèles of the same mutation?

=================================================
1,0 cinnamon Edged x 0,1 cinnamon
=================================================

1,0 50% cinnamonEdged
1,0 50% cinnamon cinnamon
-------------------------------------------------
0,1 25% SL-Edged
0,1 50% cinnamonEdged
0,1 25% cinnamon
No. Females are owning only one sex-chromosome which is responsible for expressing mutations in the phenotype. If allelic then a combo as 0,1 cinnamonEdged isn't possible because only one of these two alleles could be expressed. ;)

madas
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Re: SL Edged and Cinnamon: alleles or mutations?

Post by madas »

Johan S wrote: 2) I have a hard time accepting that the specialist SL Edged / cinnamon / misty combo European breeders would have missed allelic interaction over the 10+ years they've been at it.
Most of them even missed the SL incomplete dominante inheritance of Edged before the last 2-3 years. :)
Some of them introdued cinnamon to get more Edged female. ;)

http://www.vogelforen.de/edelsittiche/2 ... aeumt.html if you can read German. :P

madas
Last edited by madas on Fri Aug 29, 2014 12:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: SL Edged and Cinnamon: alleles or mutations

Post by Ring0Neck »

madas wrote:
Ring0Neck wrote: Recio, Would this be the expected results for below pair if different allèles of the same mutation?

=================================================
1,0 cinnamon Edged x 0,1 cinnamon
=================================================

1,0 50% cinnamonEdged
1,0 50% cinnamon cinnamon
-------------------------------------------------
0,1 25% SL-Edged
0,1 50% cinnamonEdged
0,1 25% cinnamon
No. Females are owning only one sex-chromosome which is responsible for expressing mutations in the phenotype. If allelic then a combo as 0,1 cinnamonEdged isn't possible because only one of these two alleles could be expressed. ;)

madas
Spot on Madas, i made a rookie mistake.

but we have cinnamon edged hens (or are they?) which would void this hypothesis ?
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Re: SL Edged and Cinnamon: alleles or mutations

Post by madas »

Ring0Neck wrote: but we have cinnamon edged hens (or are they?)
That's the billion dollar question. :)
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Re: SL Edged and Cinnamon: alleles or mutations?

Post by Johan S »

Recio wrote:
Johan S wrote: PS: I have not ventured into the territory of male birds. I feel the females already tell the story. :)
... but Johan, do you still believe in females stories? :lol: Let's see:
Hi Recio, pressed for time so will go into your response later. For now, consider this (since you want to talk about males). Tienie mentioned to me that he has produced a cinnamon hen from a SF SL Edged / opaline / cinnamon cock. I assume he is talking about a red eyed bird, since I doubt he will call an edged a cinnamon. What would such a male bird look like if cinnamon and SL Edged were alleles? We know what a cinnamon cock looks like, and we know what a DF SL Edged cock looks like. I'm not expecting an allelic cinnamon SL Edged/opaline to look significantly different from that. Over to your thoughts.
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Re: SL Edged and Cinnamon: alleles or mutations?

Post by Recio »

Johan S wrote:Hi Recio, pressed for time so will go into your response later. For now, consider this (since you want to talk about males). Tienie mentioned to me that he has produced a cinnamon hen from a SF SL Edged / opaline / cinnamon cock. I assume he is talking about a red eyed bird, since I doubt he will call an edged a cinnamon. What would such a male bird look like if cinnamon and SL Edged were alleles? We know what a cinnamon cock looks like, and we know what a DF SL Edged cock looks like. I'm not expecting an allelic cinnamon SL Edged/opaline to look significantly different from that. Over to your thoughts.
Hi Johan,

I will analyze Tienie's results following the allelic hypothesis. Such male would be SL-EdgedCinnamon/Opaline, and it could produce normal Cinnamon females, as he has done.
What that cock could look like? It Depends:
1. If SL-Edged is dominant over Cinnamon he will show a normal SL-Edged phenotype. This is the most likely possibility.
2. If SL-Edged is co-dominant with Cinnamon, he should show some intermediary phenotype. This is a less likely possibility because if SL-Edged is dominant over the Wild allele, and the Wild allele is dominant over Cinnamon, I would expect SL-Edged to be also dominant over Cinammon, following this order of dominancy: SL-Edged > Wild > Cinnamon.

Now I am going to "smoke the carpet" as Willy used to say: A particular feature of Cinnamon Blue males is that the same pigment (brown melanin) produces different colours in the body/wings (grey colour) than in the head (brigth blue). This seems to be specific of the brown melanine (I have not found a similar exemple with the black eumelanin). This different colour due to brown melanin in Cinnamon birds is also found in SL-Edged and Fusi. Could all 3 mutations (SL-Edged, Fusi and Cinnamon) be 3 different alleles of the same locus, all of them acting through the production of brown melanin? It would explain the behaviour of Fusi, which has not produced Cinnamon, SL-Edged or Opaline for the last 10 years, despite research to detect crossing overs of these mutations. I agree with Madas: research on Fusi genetics can last for years without any conclusion if the departure hypothesis is not good.
Antonio says that Fusi feathers do not bleach (personal communication) ... but I will not be completelly sure that there is not brown melanin at work, without performing ultrastructural studies of the feathers.
On the other hand there are reports on the web about a bleaching effect on SL-Edged feathers. People use to think that there is Cinnamon in the bird when this bleaching effect appear ... but it could just be that SL-Edged also produces brown melanin, and, thus, the bleaching effect, even without Cinnamon.

I feel that this week-end will be very rich: Probably Tienie will communicate about his results, Johan will go further in his explanations, Madas will finally deliver his deep thougth, ...

I'll "see" you later.

Recio
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Re: SL Edged and Cinnamon: alleles or mutations?

Post by Carr.birds »

Recio, Stefan, Johan and members

I need more time, my internet connection is giving me problems

Will draft a word document based on your question and copy and past it

I've cut down on my IRN aviaries from 65 to 45. I have placed some edged IRN at a friend, will visit him for progress on these pairs.

It all started in ?2009 when I mentioned to Stefan that by I am disappointed that I can't produce a edged opaline from my blueturq dilute/opaline & cobalt edged/dilute pair. All edged birds proofed to be cocks. (since 2007)

Over the past 10 years I produced many edged birds in combo with other mutations.

I will check my records but I am sure there should be results from cinnamon & edged and edged & cinnamon. Recio please feel free to send an email direct to my me, I don't always login on this forum during the day.

Regards

Tienie
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Re: SL Edged and Cinnamon: alleles or mutations?

Post by Carr.birds »

Recio wrote

2. The Edged females are similar (equal?) to cinnamon edged females (Tienie's report. See here: http://www.indianringneck.com/forum/vie ... hp?p=91271). Maybe the Edges females and the Cinnamon Edges females are so similar because they are both just Edges females. If SL-Edged and Cinnamon were different alleles of the same locus it would not be possible to get SL-EdgedCinnamon females. We will just get SL-Edged females or Cinnamon females, which is according with the phenotypic results of Tienie.
Please, Tienie, could you input data?

My reults
Recio I have tested an "edged" hen with a cinnamon cock and it proofed to be cinnamon-edged. edged-cinnamon cocks are lighter in phenotype compared to sf sl egded cocks.

Image

Tienie
Last edited by Carr.birds on Sun Aug 31, 2014 1:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: SL Edged and Cinnamon: alleles or mutations?

Post by Recio »

Hi everybody,

I have just come from visiting the aviaries of Sandrine Tremplin and passing a wonderfull time with her and her husband. They have been breeding SL-Edged Cinnamon combo and confirm Tienie's report about a patched pattern in juveniles. It means that this patching is not due to minor genes or strain specificities, but to the presence of Cinnamon.
Besides, Tienie has just confirmed that those "edged" females really own the Cinnamon gene, since it passes to the next generation.
All this means that Cinnamon and Edged are not alleles of the same gene, without any further doubt.

Next question: how could they be very highly linked and produce so easily SL-Edged Cinnamon combos?

Tienie reported that "Crossover rate of SL Edged and Cinnamon is a lot higher I would say 25%.

That's the hen. I paired her father a Cobalt SL Edged-cinnamon to a cinnamon-ino/blue hen last season. Unfortunately the pair only produced 1 baby, a cinnamon - will have it sexed on Friday. If the crossover rate is as low as 2% SL Edged-cinnamon males would have been very rare (scares) and it isn't the case".


I wander if he was meaning that he can get around 25% of SL-Edged Cinnamon combo when pairing a SF SL Edged cock to a cinnamon female. If this was the case it would mean that both mutations behave as if they were in different cromssomes, without apparent linkage .... and it would mean that we were wrong when we assumed that the SL-Edged locus was near the Cinnamon SL-Ino area. If this is true the SL-Edged locus is at the opposite part of the chromossome, further than Opaline.
I wrote :"If we have got an OR of 35% for a linkage between SL-Edge and Opaline, the corresponding P (crossing over rate) is 0.50. P for Opaline-SL Ino is 0.428 (OR 30%). P for SL-Ino - Cinnamon is 0.031 (OR 3%). If we calculate the distance beween Cin and Opaline we get 0.428 + 0.031 = 0.459. If the distance between Edge and Opaline is 0.50 and the distance between Cin and Opaline is 0.459 then we can calculate the distance between Edge and Cinnamon:
2 possibilities depending on which side of the DNA strand we consider:
Very highly linked ... P = 0.50 - 0.459 = 0.041 ..... OR = 0.039 = 3.9%
Very softly linked ... P = 0.50 + 0.459 = 0.959 ..... OR = 0.489 = 48.9%

The most likely possibility is the first one (and thus the probability of getting a bird with both mutations would be around 3.9/2 = 1.95% as explained by Madas). The second one with an OR of 48.9% is unlike since it joins the general inheritance of mutations on different chromossomes (OR = 50%, P = 1)".


So with the present results it seems that what was unlike could be "the truth", and the order of the mutations in the sexual chromossomes would be Slate (budgies, no in IRN), Cin SL-Ino complex, Opaline and SL-Edged really at the tip of the chromossome.

Sandrine will have a Blue SF SL-Edged male x Green Cinnamon/Blue female for next season. If somebody else could do a similar pairing we will have enough data to conclude.

Anyway I always have the feeling that SL-Edge and Fussi produce brown melanin. Could somebody owing these mutations send some feathers to Inte? Making the differences between black and brown melanin is quite easy, since the size and type of granules are very different, and it could help knowing this for sure, to understand the interactions of these mutations with Cinnamon.

Regards

Recio
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Re: SL Edged and Cinnamon: alleles or mutations?

Post by Carr.birds »

Recio

As mentioned I will check my combinations and the pairs setup at my friend. I am sure most of them involved edged and cinnamon and dilute as it was a requested previously by you or Stefan.

More info to follow tomorrow night

Tienie
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Re: SL Edged and Cinnamon: alleles or mutations?

Post by Carr.birds »

Recio wrote:Hi everybody,

That's the hen. I paired her father a Cobalt SL Edged-cinnamon to a cinnamon-ino/blue hen last season. Unfortunately the pair only produced 1 baby, a cinnamon - will have it sexed on Friday. If the crossover rate is as low as 2% SL Edged-cinnamon males would have been very rare (scares) and it isn't the case".[/color]

Recio
The cinnamon baby sexed a hen and of now value for further breeding. She was sold to an exporter.

Image

Notice the light feet of the cobalt sf sl edged-cinnamon

Tienie
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Re: SL Edged and Cinnamon: alleles or mutations?

Post by Johan S »

Hi Recio,
Recio wrote:All this means that Cinnamon and Edged are not alleles of the same gene, without any further doubt.
I can happily live with this conclusion... :D
Recio wrote:So with the present results it seems that what was unlike could be "the truth", and the order of the mutations in the sexual chromossomes would be Slate (budgies, no in IRN), Cin SL-Ino complex, Opaline and SL-Edged really at the tip of the chromossome.
but I'm more inclined to go with a cinnamon, SLIno and SL Edged as a complex, rather than SL Edged living on the end of the chromosome. Even though Tienie had successfully bred a pure cinnamon hen from a SL Edged and cinnamon combo, I think it is a rare event (doesn't mean it can't happen in the first few clutches). When Tienie gets the opportunity to report back on his breeding results, my suspicion is that he might confirm this.
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Re: SL Edged and Cinnamon: alleles or mutations?

Post by Johan S »

Carr.birds wrote: Notice the light feet of the cobalt sf sl edged-cinnamon

Tienie
@Shey, finally a quality picture that shows what we've often discussed. :D

@Tienie, I also suspect that we'll see a difference in the colour of the main tail feathers between the two birds, with the cinnamon one being slightly lighter. Is that the case with these birds? One can pick up a slight difference in colour in the entire plumage as well, but I'm hoping the tail shows it a bit better.
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Re: SL Edged and Cinnamon: alleles or mutations?

Post by Carr.birds »

Johan

the pic as requested
Image

Tienie
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Re: SL Edged and Cinnamon: alleles or mutations?

Post by Johan S »

Thanks Tienie.

From the above picture, to me the dominance looks like cinnamon > SL Edged.
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Re: SL Edged and Cinnamon: alleles or mutations?

Post by Recio »

Carr.birds wrote:Recio wrote

2. The Edged females are similar (equal?) to cinnamon edged females (Tienie's report. See here: http://www.indianringneck.com/forum/vie ... hp?p=91271). Maybe the Edges females and the Cinnamon Edges females are so similar because they are both just Edges females. If SL-Edged and Cinnamon were different alleles of the same locus it would not be possible to get SL-EdgedCinnamon females. We will just get SL-Edged females or Cinnamon females, which is according with the phenotypic results of Tienie.
Please, Tienie, could you input data?

My reults
Recio I have tested an "edged" hen with a cinnamon cock and it proofed to be cinnamon-edged. edged-cinnamon cocks are lighter in phenotype compared to sf sl egded cocks.

Image

Tienie
Hi Tienie,

I have been reading in the FB forum your answer to Ben about the results of your test to prove that the female is SL-EDged Cinnamon

You wrote: "Ben I used a Cinnamon cock to test if this hen was Edged or Edged Cinnamon and the results proofed that she is Edged Cinnamon as all males were Edged Cinnamon and all females were Cinnamon".

Tienie, I agree with you if I analyse your results from our usual concepts of SL-Edged and Cinnamon as different mutations.

Now, let's imagine that both SL-Edged and Cinnamon were alleles of the same locus: in this case all males would be SL-EdgedCinnamons if the female was Edged, or Cinnamons if the female was Cinnamon (we know for sure that the female is not Cinnamon). Your results show that the male offspring phenotype is SL-Edged-Cinnamon. So I could say that the female is SL-Edged, and that the male offspring would be SL-EdgedCinnamon, showing an intermediate phenotype between SL-Edged and Cinnamon.

Far more: in our classic genetics if the female was SL-Edged-Cinnamon, I would have expected some males being pure Cinnamon, but no one of such males has been produced. One single Cinnamon male offspring together with the phenotypic SL-Edged males would be enough to be sure that the female is SL-Edged-Cinnamon, but the probability for such pure phenotypic Cinnamon male would be much lower than 50% (depends on the crossing over rate between both mutations if they are not alleles of the same locus).

Please, let me know your comments. Maybe I am wrong in my reasoning.

Thanks

Recio
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Re: SL Edged and Cinnamon: alleles or mutations?

Post by Recio »

Carr.birds wrote: Image

Image


Notice the light feet of the cobalt sf sl edged-cinnamon

Tienie
Hi Tienie,

In both pics the bird with the ligther nails also shows a smaller pupil (miosis) meaning a higher photosensitivity. He also shows a narrower black ring and a wider white ring, pointing to a lower amount of melanin. Is he also carrying mutations acting on eye photosensitivity and the final amount of melanin (NSL-Ino? Clearhead fallow?....)? Maybe the yellowish nails and skin do not depend on the presence of Cinnamon but on the presence of a different mutation as split. Just an idea.

About the SL-Edged-Cinnamon female ... I have been looking for possible breeding stratégies with this female to make the difference between both hypothesis (SL-Edged and Cinnamon as different allèles or mutations) and I can not find a single one producing different phenotypic results depending on the hypothesis, that is any result appear to be explained by both hypothesis.

Regards

Recio
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Re: SL Edged and Cinnamon: alleles or mutations?

Post by Johan S »

Recio wrote:About the SL-Edged-Cinnamon female ... I have been looking for possible breeding stratégies with this female to make the difference between both hypothesis (SL-Edged and Cinnamon as different allèles or mutations) and I can not find a single one producing different phenotypic results depending on the hypothesis, that is any result appear to be explained by both hypothesis.

Regards

Recio
Hi Recio, such a breeding strategy won't be necessary, since if one assumes that such a female (SL Edged-Cinnamon) exists for two mutations on the z-chromosone, then they can not be alleles to begin with and must be at separate loci (a female can only carry one allele of a locus on the z-chromosone). The same isn't necessarily true for males, though. That's why I was focusing only on females initially and considered 2 vs 3 possible phenotypes to confirm 2 vs 3 genotypes. What am I missing? :?
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Re: SL Edged and Cinnamon: alleles or mutations?

Post by Recio »

Johan S wrote: Hi Recio, such a breeding strategy won't be necessary, since if one assumes that such a female (SL Edged-Cinnamon) exists for two mutations on the z-chromosone, then they can not be alleles to begin with and must be at separate loci (a female can only carry one allele of a locus on the z-chromosone). The same isn't necessarily true for males, though. That's why I was focusing only on females initially and considered 2 vs 3 possible phenotypes to confirm 2 vs 3 genotypes. What am I missing? :?
Hi Johan,

The problem is to assume things according to pre-stablished theories. Try to do it in the other way: let's assume that both SL-Edged and Cinnamon were alleles of the same locus. In this situation you can not assume that the female is SL-Edged-Cinnamon but just SL-Edged. Let me know which pairings would you do to prove that she is indeed Cinnamon.

Regards

Recio
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Re: SL Edged and Cinnamon: alleles or mutations?

Post by Johan S »

Recio wrote:About the SL-Edged-Cinnamon female ...
Hi Recio, it wasn't my assumption, but yours a few posts back. So I went with that. But now I'm confused. Would you like us to assume allelic interaction, or not?

If we go with a SL Edged-Cinnamon female (crossed over, different mutations), I'd still pair her to a cinnamon cock. You will breed (2nd) crossed over cinnamon males, canceling the crossing over. Not many, but it can/will happen eventually. The male offspring should be homozygous cinnamon. If the female was only SL Edged, the male offspring will be heterozygous cinnamon (not crossed over). This male offspring bird, paired back to a cinnamon hen, has the potential of breeding wildtype hens and cocks (split cinnamon from the mother's side) in low percentage.

Isn't this what Tienie already showed?
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Re: SL Edged and Cinnamon: alleles or mutations?

Post by madas »

Johan S wrote: If we go with a SL Edged-Cinnamon female (crossed over, different mutations), I'd still pair her to a cinnamon cock. You will breed (2nd) crossed over cinnamon males, canceling the crossing over. Not many, but it can/will happen eventually. The male offspring should be homozygous cinnamon. If the female was only SL Edged, the male offspring will be heterozygous cinnamon (not crossed over). This male offspring bird, paired back to a cinnamon hen, has the potential of breeding wildtype hens and cocks (split cinnamon from the mother's side) in low percentage.

Isn't this what Tienie already showed?
Hi Johan,

when pairing a SL Edged-cinnamon female to a cinnamon male (or any other male) the both crossed over mutations remain coupled for the male offspring because the mother is only holding one sex-chromosome. For a crossover you need at least two same looking chromosomes. But this isn't the case for the sex-chromosomes of a female. So there is no chance to "cancel" the crossover from such a pairing. It could only happen in males. :)

madas
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Re: SL Edged and Cinnamon: alleles or mutations?

Post by Carr.birds »

Recio

My apology for the late response.

Will read all tonight and reply.

If cinnamon and edged are alleles why do we have edged/cinnamon cocks?

Regards

Tienie
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Re: SL Edged and Cinnamon: alleles or mutations?

Post by Johan S »

Madas, you are right. I didn't think that through properly. :oops:
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Re: SL Edged and Cinnamon: alleles or mutations?

Post by madas »

Johan S wrote:Madas, you are right. I didn't think that through properly. :oops:
No problem.
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Re: SL Edged and Cinnamon: alleles or mutations?

Post by Recio »

Carr.birds wrote:Recio

My apology for the late response.

Will read all tonight and reply.

If cinnamon and edged are alleles why do we have edged/cinnamon cocks?

Regards

Tienie
Hi Tienie,

We think that we have Edged/Cinnamon cocks because we evaluate mating results on the basis that Edged and Cinnamon are different mutations. I will answer your question with another question: which would be the phenotypic difference between a SL-Edged/Cinnamon cock (mutation hypothesis) and a SL-EdgedCinnamon cock (alleles hypothesis)? Would they be differents?

Another question: are phenotypically the same SF SL-Edged males and SF-SL Edged/Cinnamon males? They should if the mutation hypothesis holds true, but they shouldn't (?) in the allelic hypothesis is the rigth one.

Regards

Recio
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Re: SL Edged and Cinnamon: alleles or mutations?

Post by Carr.birds »

Recio

I can assure you there is a difference between sl edged/cinnamon and sl edged-cinnamon in phenotype. I still own a green sl edged/cinnamon/dilute cock but sold a green sl edged-cinnamon. Will contact the breeder to get the bird for comparison pics.

Tienie
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Re: SL Edged and Cinnamon: alleles or mutations?

Post by Recio »

Carr.birds wrote:Recio

I can assure you there is a difference between sl edged/cinnamon and sl edged-cinnamon in phenotype. I still own a green sl edged/cinnamon/dilute cock but sold a green sl edged-cinnamon. Will contact the breeder to get the bird for comparison pics.

Tienie
Hi Tienie,

You have misunderstood me and I understand your misunderstanding because sometimes I do not understand myself :|

Let's try again: as you say a SL-Edged/Cinnamon (genotype WildSL-Edged WildCinnamon and phenotype SL-Edged) is different than a SL-Edged-Cinnamon (genotype WildSL-Edged CinnamonCinnamon, phenotype SL-Edged Cinnamon). What I was asking is : does a SL-Edged/Cinnamon (genotype WildSL-Edged WildCinnamon) show the same phenotype than a SL-Edged non split for Cinnamon? If they both show the same phenotype it would point to both mutations being différents, but if the presence of cinnamon as split is able to change the phenotypic expression of SF SL-Edged (this was reported by Madas if I remember correctly), then we should consider other options (allelic hypothesis?, heteroallelic complementarity? ...).

Regards

Recio
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Re: SL Edged and Cinnamon: alleles or mutations?

Post by Carr.birds »

Recio

Ok now i understand

I will have to check my aviaries. I don't know if I kept a green edged cock. Some breeding results of this season might confirm this.

Tienie
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Re: SL Edged and Cinnamon: alleles or mutations?

Post by sheyd »

The whole thread is beyond me... but I've been thinking....


If SL Edged and Cinnamon were alleles on the same locus, then could a bird that was carrying both (mutations) pass on both at once to its offspring?
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Re: SL Edged and Cinnamon: alleles or mutations?

Post by Johan S »

sheyd wrote:The whole thread is beyond me... but I've been thinking....


If SL Edged and Cinnamon were alleles on the same locus, then could a bird that was carrying both (mutations) pass on both at once to its offspring?
Shey, no. One parent can only pass one of the two alleles to a specific offspring. Of course, a second chick could get the second allele.
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Re: SL Edged and Cinnamon: alleles or mutations?

Post by sheyd »

Thank you Johan- and that is what I had thought.

I still think that SL Edged birds definitely split to Cinnamon and thought to be, as well as birds thought to be visual Cinnamon SL Edged need to be investigated closer- ie are split birds the same phenotypically as visuals?

Next year, I'll be pairing mother & son (assumed 0.1SL Edged Green Cinnamon and 1.0SL Edged(sf) Green/Cinnamon*) together- I should (hopefully) get all the possible phenotypes in the nest- over a course of a couple of clutches.

This year I have a Grey Cinnamon(?) SL Edged(sf?) cock (from the edged thread)set up to a Wildtype hen (sorry Ben had a possible Violet(df) TurquoiseBlue in with him, but he didn't like her too much :()
Will keep everyone updated on what happens with them.

So hopefully this year (and if not next) will yield some answers.

*My current thinking is that the cock is /Cinnamon from his dam and not from his sire
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Re: SL Edged and Cinnamon: alleles or mutations?

Post by sheyd »

awhile ago, Recio asked if the melanin on an edged bird was affected by sunlight- I have taken a pic of two feathers today each belonging to nest siblings, kept together in the same conditions- and I can say yes, the edged feather is affected- it has the typical fading outlines just like Cinnamon feathers would have.

Image

these two show the fading better

Image
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Re: SL Edged and Cinnamon: alleles or mutations?

Post by Recio »

This is a paste and copy of some mailing with Inte:

> Hi Inte,
>
> I have a 2 years old Blue SL-Edged male IRN. Would you be interested in
studying its type of melanin? I have some reasons to think
that it could be brown eumelanin (like for cinnamon) instead
of black eumelanin. I am not sking you for the total study
of the histology but just to look at the type of melanin. If
you are interested please feel free to tell me which
feathers you need.
>
>
Thanks
>
> Recio
>

Recio,

Breeders of other species asked me the same
question but unfortunately
it is not
possible to determine whether it is black or brown eumelanin

under a microscope. One has to determine it
on sight and by inheritance.
It is best
seen in the flightfeathers but it will be hard to tell.

--
Inte
Onsman
MUTAVI Research & Advice
Group


Hi Inte,

I thougth that determining eumelanin type was quite "easy" looking at the size and shape of the granules, as you have described for budgies.

As you know inheritance pattern in SL Edged is sex linked as for Cinnamon. Whether recessive or dominant is non sense because most of mutations behave in fact as incomplete dominant (or incomplete recessive), their apparent behaviour depending on the model we are studying. Ex: clearhead fallow in cinnamon series appears as incomplete dominant, since we can detect the clearhead even in "splits". The typical ruby eye with translucent iris appears only in the homozygous bird. But you already know this stuff.

As for sigth: it is really similar in SL-Edged, Cinnamon and "Fusi". They all show in blue series males a greyish colour on the back and wings feathers together with a blue head.

Should we conclude that SL-Edged and Cinnamon are both producing brown melanin? Further ... it has not yet been proved if Cinnamon and SL-Edged are different mutations or alleles of the same mutation. This question has not even arised considering that it was not possible because they have different inheritance patterns. Nevertheless some preliminar data from crossing over rates point to the possibility of an allelic relation ship. I was not aware that breeders of other species were also thinking that SL-Edge could produce Brown melanin, and this idea adds consistency to the hypothesis of an allelic relation. The first step, before going further, would be to prove or disprove if SL-Edged IRN produce Brown melanin. Please, if you want/can make the study, tell me where should I send the fligthfeathers.

Thanks

Recio


So, my friends, as you can see the question of SL-Edged as possibly producing brown melanin has also been made for others species. I am still waiting for a positif answer from Inte.

Regards

Recio
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Re: SL Edged and Cinnamon: alleles or mutations?

Post by sheyd »

Will be interesting in hearing their response- thanks for sharing
Recio
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Re: SL Edged and Cinnamon: alleles or mutations?

Post by Recio »

Positif answer :P . I will send the flightfeathers tomorrow.

Recio
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Re: SL Edged and Cinnamon: alleles or mutations?

Post by sheyd »

Recio wrote:Positif answer :P . I will send the flightfeathers tomorrow.

Recio
Great news! :D
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Re: SL Edged and Cinnamon: alleles or mutations?

Post by Johan S »

Nice one, Recio! :D
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