Emerald, einmal

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Recio
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Emerald, einmal

Post by Recio »

Hi everybody,

Just some ideas and one question:

1. Emerald is readily visible at fledging.
2. Emerald can be easily recognized by the underwing patch in blue series birds
3. It seems that green birds owing Emerald (split to Emerald for ones or a dominant mutation for others, me too) are easier to detect by looking at the undertail (Todd Helies reports in Lee's FB page).

All those observations point to the possibility that Emerald could be specifically expressed on "soft" feathers (underwing, around cloac) which would be more "résistent" to the expression of other yellow psittacofulvines, allowing for an easier detection. Since Emerald is also expressed from fledging I was wandering if the down of young Emeralds could also be different than the down expressed by the classic parblues. Has any Emerald breeder verified? If so ... did you also have a look to this down under uv?

Regards

Recio
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Re: Emerald, einmal

Post by Ring0Neck »

Since Emerald is also expressed from fledging I was wandering if the down of young Emeralds could also be different than the down expressed by the classic parblues.
I can have a look in a few days Recio, I have 5 young in the nest just hatched a couple of days ago.
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Recio
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Re: Emerald, einmal

Post by Recio »

Ring0Neck wrote:
Since Emerald is also expressed from fledging I was wandering if the down of young Emeralds could also be different than the down expressed by the classic parblues.
I can have a look in a few days Recio, I have 5 young in the nest just hatched a couple of days ago.
Congratulations.

Do you own a parblue offspring of similar age to compare with? Do you own a uv lamp? which is its wavelength?

Regards

Recio
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Re: Emerald, einmal

Post by Ring0Neck »

Recio wrote:
Ring0Neck wrote:
Since Emerald is also expressed from fledging I was wandering if the down of young Emeralds could also be different than the down expressed by the classic parblues.
I can have a look in a few days Recio, I have 5 young in the nest just hatched a couple of days ago.
Congratulations.

Do you own a parblue offspring of similar age to compare with? Do you own a uv lamp? which is its wavelength?

Regards

Recio
Recio,
Yes, should have the same age in IndigoBlues & TurquoiseBlue but i won't know which is Parblue for a few weeks.
UV? yea, never used it though and not sure how good it is or wavlenghts.
it would be funny if the Emerald down would glow :shock: :lol:
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Re: Emerald, einmal

Post by Recio »

Hi Ben,

First have a look at the parents to detect the difference between Emerald and other green series birds. Then you will know what you should look for on the babies down.

Recio
Mikesringnecks
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Re: Emerald, einmal

Post by Mikesringnecks »

Hi Recio
I have blue series Emerald Cleartail chicks so I will have a look. I'm afraid I don't have any Green series Emeralds this season so for me the hunt for green splits will have to wait. Having said that, my EmeraldTurquoise Cleartail hen has 5 chicks under fosters and another clutch on the way so, including 2 Turquoise and 5 Emerald from last season, I will have an awful lot of offspring to test the par blue proposition.
Kind regards
Mike
Johan S
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Re: Emerald, einmal

Post by Johan S »

Mikesringnecks wrote:Having said that, my EmeraldTurquoise Cleartail hen has 5 chicks under fosters and another clutch on the way so, including 2 Turquoise and 5 Emerald from last season, I will have an awful lot of offspring to test the par blue proposition.
Kind regards
Mike
Fantastic news! Congrats Mike. :D
Recio
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Re: Emerald, einmal

Post by Recio »

Ben & Mike,

Please, have also a look at a possible fluorescence of the skin and the beak. I do not yet completelly give up the possibility of a structural yellow in Emeralds. In this case it could be a different keratin at work, and even the skin and /or the beak and/or the nails (owing also keratin) could be fluorescent.

Regards

Recio
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Re: Emerald, einmal

Post by Mikesringnecks »

Hi Recio
The 2 relevant clutches I have both have Emerald and Turquoise in the parents. One is my EmeraldTurquoise Cleartail hen paired with a Violet Blue Cleartail cock and the other is an EmeraldBlue split cleartail hen paired with a Violet TurquoiseBlue Cleartail cock. I will let you know what the UV torch shows when they have rings and some down.
The light is from John Shannon, neither vendor nor packaging tells you what wave lengths it emits but it does work well with the birds. I tried 2 others and again no information on the wave length front, but neither of them were very effective so I guess the correct wave length is vital.
Kind regards
Mike
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Re: Emerald, einmal

Post by Ring0Neck »

This is the Indigo nest i can keep updated pics on, my bro is handfeeding this lot.

Parents of 3 chicks: DF Violet Green/Blue X (Poss Homozygous) Indigo Pallid hen
Based on what's known of the parents i assume the blue series of the 3 young will be Violet IndigoBlues

Fourth young is a split buttercup, assumed blue series, it could be: Blue, TurquoiseBlue, Violet or Turq.Vio.
we need/hope it to be carrying Turquoise .
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Re: Emerald, einmal

Post by Johan S »

I have a request: Would breeders with clutches from a parent carrying emerald please take and upload pictures of the offspring, esp. in the first few weeks before pinning? It will be much appreciated. Thanks! :)
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Re: Emerald, einmal

Post by Ring0Neck »

I will also do an emerald clutch of 5 young, they are about 5-9 days younger than the ones above.

pic of the young from Grey Emerald X Deep Violet
http://parakeet.me/irn/m/em/DSC_1615.jpg

The more volunteers the better, if anyone else is willing to do it, it'd be great.
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Re: Emerald, einmal

Post by Mikesringnecks »

Hi Johan
All mine are raised by parents or fosters so taking pics of very young chicks is difficult as I gain access via a door at nest height on the side of the box. I cannot take pics of a clutch from above without removing the clutch from the nest and I am not inclined to do that before they have pin feathers and the mother has stopped brooding them. Sorry.
I can't seem to post photos on this site anyway, any idea as to why? Do they have to be very low quality?
Kind regards
Mike
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Re: Emerald, einmal

Post by Mikesringnecks »

Hi Recio & Johan
I put a UV light in a nest box this evening with a clutch of 5 very young chicks from an EmeraldBlue split Cleartail hen and a Violet TurquoiseBlue Cleartail cock. The chicks are under tame fosters but too young to take out and photograph in a dark room in case they get cold. Obviously I have no idea which carry emerald yet, but the only thing I could detect being highlighted by the UV light was the tips of their beaks which showed up as white.
I have an older clutch under another foster mother that are all cleartails that might show the yellow better. When they have all been ringed I will take them indoors and look at them carefully in a dark room under UV and let you know what it reveals. I can't see much point in trying to photograph them because usually I can't post the pics on this site.
Kind regards
Mike
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Re: Emerald, einmal

Post by Johan S »

Mike, I'm more curious about the chicks under normal light than UV prior to feather growth. There is no psittacin in the skin, so I don't think we'll see anything special under UV.
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Re: Emerald, einmal

Post by Ring0Neck »

Emerald clutch.
In an effort to save the 5th chick I have pulled the young & a friend is now HR the chicks.
IRNs have 1 rule: Survival of the fittest! but i don't have time to play games with nature ;)

Image
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Re: Emerald, einmal

Post by Johan S »

Thanks Ben. Unfortunately, these ones are already too old for what I want to see.
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Re: Emerald, einmal

Post by madas »

Johan S wrote:Thanks Ben. Unfortunately, these ones are already too old for what I want to see.
May i ask: what do you wanted to see? ;)

madas
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Re: Emerald, einmal

Post by Ring0Neck »

Johan,

Here's the pic you wanted. 11 days old & younger ; Emerald clutch.


Image
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Re: Emerald, einmal

Post by Mikesringnecks »

Hi Recio
My EmeraldTurquoise Cleartail hen has now finished laying. First 5 eggs are now all ringed chicks under a foster, the second 5 are all fertile and she will be raising them herself. It may be some time before I am certain what all 10 are genetically because Turquoise took quite a log time to show last year and may be difficult again. However, I should be better at picking it this time around with any luck.
Kind regards
Mike
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Re: Emerald, einmal

Post by Mikesringnecks »

Hi Johan
When/if the EmeraldTurquoise Cleartail hen's second clutch have all hatched, I will try photographing them from the side in the box presumably with a flash. If it works, I can send pics directly to you if this site doesn't work for me. They will all be cleartails and I don't know whether or not that effects whatever you are looking for.
Kind regards
Mike
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Re: Emerald, einmal

Post by Johan S »

madas wrote: May i ask: what do you wanted to see? ;)

madas
Patience Mr Eagle Eyes. :D
Ring0Neck wrote:Johan,

Here's the pic you wanted. 11 days old & younger ; Emerald clutch.
Image
Thanks Ben. Now let's wait and see how many emeralds there are.
Mikesringnecks wrote:Hi Johan
When/if the EmeraldTurquoise Cleartail hen's second clutch have all hatched, I will try photographing them from the side in the box presumably with a flash. If it works, I can send pics directly to you if this site doesn't work for me. They will all be cleartails and I don't know whether or not that effects whatever you are looking for.
Kind regards
Mike
Thanks Mike, I appreciate it.
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Re: Emerald, einmal

Post by Ring0Neck »

Emerald clutch starting to break a few pin-feathers.

2nd pic: grey & grey emerald by what we can see thus far

Image

At this stage we have 50% emeralds 2/4. One bird still to feather.
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Re: Emerald, einmal

Post by Ring0Neck »

update emeralds:
Image

Image
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Re: Emerald, einmal

Post by Ring0Neck »

Here is another update from Aaron :

Second year breeding Violet green/Emerald/CT X Violet Blue Cleartail hen:
ALL Blue series birds CARRY Emerald
This confirms Emerald mutation a Recessive mutation to Wildtype (Green)
and this supports Emerald being a Parblue !!!

Thoughts?
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Recio
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Re: Emerald, einmal

Post by Recio »

Ring0Neck wrote:Here is another update from Aaron :

Second year breeding Violet green/Emerald/CT X Violet Blue Cleartail hen:
ALL Blue series birds CARRY Emerald
This confirms Emerald mutation a Recessive mutation to Wildtype (Green)
and this supports Emerald being a Parblue !!!

Thoughts?
Hi Ben,

I will "copy and paste" from another post my deep "thougth":


If you can see Emerald in the green series bird, it would mean that Emerald is dominant, but Emerald being dominant is not enough to say that it is a mutation of a different locus than Blue (to say that it is not a parblue). Anyway this fact would highly point or suggest that Emerald is a different mutation (we can not identify splits to blue or parblue in green series birds).

To be sure that Emerald is a different mutation you should get a blue bird in the offspring after pairing your Green Emerald to a Blue, as Madas said. It would mean that the Green Emerald mother is also split Blue, and then, Emerald and Blue alleles would be together in a phenotypic green bird, proving that they are not alleles of the same gene.

This risk to be a major challenge if Emerald and Blue are highly linked. We need to get 20 offspring without Blue to say with a p<0.05 that the mother is not carrying Blue and Emerald in a non linked situation. If we accept a possible linkage rate of 3%, as for Cin-SL-Ino, we will need far higher numbers (around 0.05 x 0.03 = 0.0015 = 0.15% = 667 birds offspring without any Blue). But if we ever can get one single Blue in the offspring it would be enough to prove it


Best regards

Recio
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Re: Emerald, einmal

Post by Johan S »

Ring0Neck wrote:ALL Blue series birds CARRY Emerald
How many birds are we talking about, Ben?

Granted, I think we are looking at an allele of the blue locus. Is that sufficient to classify it as a parblue? I think the answer is no.
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Re: Emerald, einmal

Post by Recio »

Johan S wrote:
Ring0Neck wrote:ALL Blue series birds CARRY Emerald
How many birds are we talking about, Ben?

Granted, I think we are looking at an allele of the blue locus. Is that sufficient to classify it as a parblue? I think the answer is no.
Hi everybody;

First we must define what we are meaning with the word "parblue":
Is it just a partial blue = some psittacines are let?
Is it a partial allele of the Blue locus we all know?
Is it a partial allele of any Blue loci?
....

What's your definition of parblue?

Regards

Recio
Molossus2
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Re: Emerald, einmal

Post by Molossus2 »

Recio I calls it as i sees it...Parblue= partial blue.
if i am not mistaken that was the intention of the name in the first place...
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Re: Emerald, einmal

Post by Ring0Neck »

Johan S wrote:
Ring0Neck wrote:ALL Blue series birds CARRY Emerald
How many birds are we talking about, Ben?

Granted, I think we are looking at an allele of the blue locus. Is that sufficient to classify it as a parblue? I think the answer is no.
6 birds so far inc. 2 of last year. pair might go down again this year.
3 Emeralds
3 Green series.
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Re: Emerald, einmal

Post by Recio »

Molossus2 wrote:Recio I calls it as i sees it...Parblue= partial blue.
if i am not mistaken that was the intention of the name in the first place...
You are rigth ... and partial blue phenotype or partial blue genotype becomes similar whenever we are dealing with a single blue locus, but if we are thinking that, perhaps, there is a second Blue locus with its own allele(s) we should use some consensual definitions to know what we are speaking about.

For me parblue means partial blue and it is applied to both the phenotypic and the genotypic description. May be, when speaking of a possible second blue locus we should call it Blue² and to speak about parblue(s)² for both phenotype and genotype.

Regards

Recio
Mikesringnecks
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Re: Emerald, einmal

Post by Mikesringnecks »

Hi Recio
Now I have finally thought it through and you are as usual correct. If my TurquoiseEmerald hen is in fact Emerald TurquoiseBlue, and the Emerald gene is closely linked to the Blue gene, then nearly all the chicks will be either Emerald BlueBlue or TurquoiseBlue when she is paired to a BlueBlue cock. Still, on the rare occasion that a BlueBlue or an Emerald TurquoiseBlue chick appears, we have still managed to prove that emerald is not a par blue have we not?
So, is there a breeding combination that more readily identifies whether or not Emerald and Blue are linked?
Kind regards
Mike
Johan S
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Re: Emerald, einmal

Post by Johan S »

Recio wrote:
Johan S wrote:
Ring0Neck wrote:ALL Blue series birds CARRY Emerald
How many birds are we talking about, Ben?

Granted, I think we are looking at an allele of the blue locus. Is that sufficient to classify it as a parblue? I think the answer is no.
Hi everybody;

First we must define what we are meaning with the word "parblue":
Is it just a partial blue = some psittacines are let?
Is it a partial allele of the Blue locus we all know?
Is it a partial allele of any Blue loci?
....

What's your definition of parblue?

Regards

Recio
That, my friend, is the real question right there.

In my opinion, the current definition is vague at best and was formulated long ago prior to knowledge of things we know today. We have a nice definition for blue, being a mutation that stops the production of psittacin. So a parblue is supposed to partially stop the production of psittacin. This effect can be twofold, we could get areas with high concentration of psittacin, while others are completely devoid (so we have green feathers and blue feathers/regions - think indigo), or we could have an even reduction in concentration over the entire body (aqua as known in some species). The problem being, what type of psittacin are we talking about? At the time the definition was formulated, only psittacin present in the wildtype was known and considered, being our typical non-fluorescent psittacin and the psittacin with yellow fluorescence. What happens to mutated psittacin with a different colour fluorescence, as proven to exist? Do we include such a psittacin in the definition? Are we even sure it is actually a mutated psittacin? So many questions without answers.

Fact of the matter is, a mutation being an allele of the blue locus, does not prove that mutation is a parblue. And the blue mutation itself is proof of that statement. And so is blue2 in budgies.

PS: Mike, you are spot on in your assessment of the situation. Even though, personally, I think we are dealing with an allele, there is no denying that a close linkage could actually be the valid model.
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Re: Emerald, einmal

Post by Molossus2 »

Recio , Mike , I have an emerald green alex cock bred from emerald green to g/blue parents .. I am gonna pair him to a g/b or blue..depends on what I have available .. only next year..I have a similar hen only a year old this season..can only pair them together in 2016.. that will be emerald green to emerald green .. if blue emerald are produced that it can help the testing. I will also try to find something suitable for my 'emerald' green harlequin irn hen for next year..
since the emerald green alex was bred from two green birds then the idea behind my thoughts is that the emerald and blue may share a relationship auto interlinking blue to emerald. ie emerald green is visually a green bird carrying blue in its makeup.Am I making sense?
Recio this is on the basis of my intepretation of your theory.
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Re: Emerald, einmal

Post by Sherjil »

Molossus2 wrote:since the emerald green alex was bred from two green birds then the idea behind my thoughts is that the emerald and blue may share a relationship auto interlinking blue to emerald. ie emerald green is visually a green bird carrying blue in its makeup.Am I making sense?
Recio this is on the basis of my interpretation of your theory.
Hi Gents ;

Apart from emerald and blue (according to Recio's interpretation) can you please give another example of two mutations which qualify below criteria, may it be in other species of birds :-

1) Both are allele of each other.
2) One has dominant inheritance mode and other has recessive.
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Re: Emerald, einmal

Post by Recio »

Sherjil wrote:
Molossus2 wrote:since the emerald green alex was bred from two green birds then the idea behind my thoughts is that the emerald and blue may share a relationship auto interlinking blue to emerald. ie emerald green is visually a green bird carrying blue in its makeup.Am I making sense?
Recio this is on the basis of my interpretation of your theory.
Hi Gents ;

Apart from emerald and blue (according to Recio's interpretation) can you please give another example of two mutations which qualify below criteria, may it be in other species of birds :-

1) Both are allele of each other.
2) One has dominant inheritance mode and other has recessive.
Hi Sherjil,

You have misunderstood me since my position is just the oposite: to me Emerald and Blue are not alleles of the same locus, but very probably they are different mutations highly linked. It is easy to understand thinking that they have an evolutive comon ancestor and have been produced by duplication of this one, as tween genes, which have then evolved differently, but their loci remain very close (highly linked) in the same chromossome.

As far as I know nobody has ever described in birds two alleles of the same locus with different inheritance pattern respective to the wild allele, but very probably this is due to our usual way of thinking: "alleles of the same locus behave the same respective to the wild allele". So if this is our departure point we will never identify these mutations because we will never look for them. This is explained in the post about Cinnamon and SL-Edged as possible alleles of the same gene. A preliminar study looking for brown melanin in SL-Edged birds would support or discard this idea (if there is not brown melanin in SL-Edged birds, then we are not dealing with alleles of the same mutation), before going further with breeding studies.

Regards

Recio
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Re: Emerald, einmal

Post by Mikesringnecks »

Hi Recio
I think you have given me a long term breeding project. I will try for a DF Emerald Cleartail next season and then pair it to a Green Cleartail. That way I can at least get a very good look at both the green and yellow plumage in a Green bird split for Emerald
Kind regards
Mike
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Re: Emerald, einmal

Post by Sherjil »

Recio wrote:
Sherjil wrote:
Molossus2 wrote:since the emerald green alex was bred from two green birds then the idea behind my thoughts is that the emerald and blue may share a relationship auto interlinking blue to emerald. ie emerald green is visually a green bird carrying blue in its makeup.Am I making sense?
Recio this is on the basis of my interpretation of your theory.
Hi Gents ;

Apart from emerald and blue (according to Recio's interpretation) can you please give another example of two mutations which qualify below criteria, may it be in other species of birds :-

1) Both are allele of each other.
2) One has dominant inheritance mode and other has recessive.
Hi Sherjil,

You have misunderstood me since my position is just the oposite: to me Emerald and Blue are not alleles of the same locus, but very probably they are different mutations highly linked. It is easy to understand thinking that they have an evolutive comon ancestor and have been produced by duplication of this one, as tween genes, which have then evolved differently, but their loci remain very close (highly linked) in the same chromossome.

As far as I know nobody has ever described in birds two alleles of the same locus with different inheritance pattern respective to the wild allele, but very probably this is due to our usual way of thinking: "alleles of the same locus behave the same respective to the wild allele". So if this is our departure point we will never identify these mutations because we will never look for them. This is explained in the post about Cinnamon and SL-Edged as possible alleles of the same gene. A preliminar study looking for brown melanin in SL-Edged birds would support or discard this idea (if there is not brown melanin in SL-Edged birds, then we are not dealing with alleles of the same mutation), before going further with breeding studies.

Regards

Recio

Hi Recio ;

Thanks for explaining and you are completely right. I overlooked the linkage theory b/w emerald and blue :)

I am rephrasing the theory below; please correct me if I am wrong as the questions further below are based on these points:-
1) Emerald and Blue are linked which means they should exist on the same chromosome.
2) As these two mutations are assumed to be linked it means they can't be allele.
3) Emerald has dominant inheritance.


Queries :

1) If emerald is linked with blue (assuming >50%) there is another high probability that emerald should be linked with the alleles of blue as well i.e. Emerald-Parblue linkage . If so should there be a phenotypical differences between two birds with genotypes:

* Emerald(not linked) Blue Parblue & Emerald-Blue (linked) Parblue [hetrozygous case]
* Similarly Emerald (not linked) Parblue Parblue & Emerald-Parblue (linked) Parblue [Homozygous case]

Assuming emerald is dominant on similar lines we can explore such scenarios with the wild type (although difficult to identify)

* Green Emerald(not linked) / Blue & Green Emerald-Blue (linked)
* Green Emerald(not linked) / Parblue & Green Emerald-Parblue (linked)

If there should be a difference; has such phenotype difference been reported ?

For analogy we can take example of two male birds with following genotype:

* SL D Edged (not linked) Cinnamon Cinnamon & SL D Edged-Cinnamon (linked) Cinnamon [Can be a green or blue series bird]. Assumption :SL D Eged and cinnamon are not allele.

2) Is there another way to prove that emerald and blue reside on the same chromosome apart from looking at the linkage characteristics ? It was easier to determine the loci of the sex-linked mutations to be present on the sex chromosome ; as in this case inheritance mode is because of a unique chromosome pairing i.e. XX in males and XY in females. All other chromosome pairs lack such uniqueness.

Regards;
Sherjil
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Re: Emerald, einmal

Post by Mikesringnecks »

Hi Recio
If Emerald is linked closely to blue then should we assume it is also closely linked to Turquoise which exists at the same locus as Blue?
kind regards
Mike
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Re: Emerald, einmal

Post by Mikesringnecks »

Hi Recio
Sorry silly question, of course it has to be if we are talking about an adjacent locus.
Kind regards
Mike
Mikesringnecks
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Re: Emerald, einmal

Post by Mikesringnecks »

Hi Ben
I forgot the details of the chick Aaron bred. Mother was a Violet Blue Cleartail and father was Violet Green/Emerald/Cleartail. What were the father's parents?
I am asking with a view to somehow being certain that the father can't be Violet Emerald Green/Blue/Cleartail which is what those who doubt the par blue hypothesis would believe. They would then argue that he could pass an Emerald and a Blue gene on to the chick to give it an Emerald BlueBlue phenotype.
Kind regards
Mike
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Re: Emerald, einmal

Post by Ring0Neck »

Hi Mike,

You can talk to Aaron directly he is on FB, he is a great guy to talk to.
I'm an Explorer
10% luck, 20% skill, 15% concentrated power of will, 50% pleasure, 5% pain$ and a 100% reason ..I just gotta know
Mikesringnecks
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Re: Emerald, einmal

Post by Mikesringnecks »

Hi Ben
Thanks for that, I'd love to but I'm fairly useless at navigating around face book, its all a bit hit and miss for me.
kind regards
Mike
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Re: Emerald, einmal

Post by Ring0Neck »

He posted on Willy's thread Yesterday & replied to your Questions as well.
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Re: Emerald, einmal

Post by Mikesringnecks »

Hi Recio
I have been thinking again. I agree with you that the possibility of a close linkage between Emerald and Blue would effectively negate the chance of proving EmeraldBlue by breeding my TurquoiseEmerald hen with a BlueBlue cock. However, as I have said before, surely anything other than EmeraldBlue or TurquoiseBlue chicks does prove the opposite IE that Emerald is not a par blue.
I am convinced that the Emerald BlueBlue proposition also has a simple fatal flaw. I now have a few EmeraldBlue Cleartails and they all carry a good amount of that pale yellow emerald psitticin underneath. As I understand it, BlueBlue is a null mutation shutting down the production of psitticin completely. If this is correct, they should surely be white underneath not pale yellow. Therefore Emerald BlueBlue is presumably impossible.
If I am wrong again please explain.
Kind regards
Mike
Recio
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Re: Emerald, einmal

Post by Recio »

Mikesringnecks wrote:Hi Recio
I have been thinking again. I agree with you that the possibility of a close linkage between Emerald and Blue would effectively negate the chance of proving EmeraldBlue by breeding my TurquoiseEmerald hen with a BlueBlue cock. However, as I have said before, surely anything other than EmeraldBlue or TurquoiseBlue chicks does prove the opposite IE that Emerald is not a par blue.
I am convinced that the Emerald BlueBlue proposition also has a simple fatal flaw. I now have a few EmeraldBlue Cleartails and they all carry a good amount of that pale yellow emerald psitticin underneath. As I understand it, BlueBlue is a null mutation shutting down the production of psitticin completely. If this is correct, they should surely be white underneath not pale yellow. Therefore Emerald BlueBlue is presumably impossible.
If I am wrong again please explain.
Kind regards
Mike
Hi Mike,

How could an Emerald BlueBlue show any psittacin if BlueBlue will block every psittacin synthesis?
I will anwer you with another question: how can Cinnamon SL-Ino show more melanin than SL-Ino, if SL-Ino will block most of melanin synthesis? This is a similar situation. The interaction could appear at the level of the enzymatic regulation as is the case for Cinnamon and SL-Ino respective to melanin, but it could also be due (most probably) to interaction between similar closely linked genes due to heteroallelic complementation or to non allelic non complementation. See topic: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Gen ... pics/20509.

Best regards

Recio
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Re: Emerald, einmal

Post by Recio »

Sherjil wrote: 1) If emerald is linked with blue (assuming >50%) there is another high probability that emerald should be linked with the alleles of blue as well i.e. Emerald-Parblue linkage
.
>50% linkage ... is not linkage and is not possible since free inheritance is already at 50%. The linkage between Emerald and Blue would be exactly the same than between Emerald and Parblues, since Blue and Parblues are alleles of the same locus.
If so should there be a phenotypical differences between two birds with genotypes:

* Emerald(not linked) Blue Parblue & Emerald-Blue (linked) Parblue [hetrozygous case]
* Similarly Emerald (not linked) Parblue Parblue & Emerald-Parblue (linked) Parblue [Homozygous case]
Emerald can not be not linked to either Blue or Parblue when both are present since Blue is in one chromossome and Parblue in the other; so Emerald must be linked to one or the other. The question is: is the same phenotype expressed when Emerald is linked to the parBlue than when it is linked to Blue in an heterozygous ParBlueBlue? I think that probably it is not the same because in highly linked similar genes there must be an interaction between Emerald and its neighbourg gene (non allelic non complementation or heteroallelic complementation) and this action would not be the same depending on which is the "neighbourg" gene: Blue or Parblue. Probably this could explain the strange patched Emerald birds that Willy got in the past.

Assuming emerald is dominant on similar lines we can explore such scenarios with the wild type (although difficult to identify)

* Green Emerald(not linked) / Blue & Green Emerald-Blue (linked)
* Green Emerald(not linked) / Parblue & Green Emerald-Parblue (linked)

If there should be a difference; has such phenotype difference been reported ?
I understand what you are meaning and agree in your questioning. To my knowledge there are not specific reports on the subject.
For analogy we can take example of two male birds with following genotype:

* SL D Edged (not linked) Cinnamon Cinnamon & SL D Edged-Cinnamon (linked) Cinnamon [Can be a green or blue series bird]. Assumption :SL D Eged and cinnamon are not allele.
This example is not good because a "SL D Edged (not linked) Cinnamon Cinnamon " is impossible (SL-Edged will always be linked to one of the Cinnamon alleles).
2) Is there another way to prove that emerald and blue reside on the same chromosome apart from looking at the linkage characteristics ? It was easier to determine the loci of the sex-linked mutations to be present on the sex chromosome ; as in this case inheritance mode is because of a unique chromosome pairing i.e. XX in males and XY in females. All other chromosome pairs lack such uniqueness.
Hard to say. Perhaps studying the phenotypes we can get by looking at combinations with other types of parblues (have a look at the other post).

Best regards

Recio
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Re: Emerald, einmal

Post by Sherjil »

Hi Recio;

Thanks its a lot clear now, so the following genotypes are technically invalid :-

Emerald(not linked) Blue Parblue
Emerald(not linked) Parblue Parblue

Re-iterating your question abt phenotypical differences b/w Emerald-Blue (linked) Parblue Vs Emerald-Parblue (linked) Blue ?

I am trying to "guess" what would these birds look like : In comparing Emerald-Blue (linked) Parblue will show a patchy look while an Emerald-Parblue (linked) Blue will show a smooth Parblue-Emerald suffusion ? The reason can be interaction of emerald (even psittacine distribution & different psittacine type) with its linked gene. On same lines an Emerald-Parblue Parblue will also show patchiness since one independent parblue gene is still there contributing to its share of patchiness.
2) Is there another way to prove that emerald and blue reside on the same chromosome apart from looking at the linkage characteristics ? It was easier to determine the loci of the sex-linked mutations to be present on the sex chromosome ; as in this case inheritance mode is because of a unique chromosome pairing i.e. XX in males and XY in females. All other chromosome pairs lack such uniqueness.
Hard to say. Perhaps studying the phenotypes we can get by looking at combinations with other types of parblues (have a look at the other post).
Proving linkages through breeding results is a lengthy route, specially when we are "suspecting" a linkage to be there. It would be good if some one can identify a work around to prove or dis-proof this linkage. can you please share the link of the other thread. thanks

Br/Sherjil
Recio
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Re: Emerald, einmal

Post by Recio »

Sorry,
This is the topic: http://www.indianringneck.com/forum/vie ... 26&t=18957

Regards

Recio
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Re: Emerald, einmal

Post by Johan S »

Mikesringnecks wrote:Hi Recio
I have been thinking again. I agree with you that the possibility of a close linkage between Emerald and Blue would effectively negate the chance of proving EmeraldBlue by breeding my TurquoiseEmerald hen with a BlueBlue cock. However, as I have said before, surely anything other than EmeraldBlue or TurquoiseBlue chicks does prove the opposite IE that Emerald is not a par blue.
I am convinced that the Emerald BlueBlue proposition also has a simple fatal flaw. I now have a few EmeraldBlue Cleartails and they all carry a good amount of that pale yellow emerald psitticin underneath. As I understand it, BlueBlue is a null mutation shutting down the production of psitticin completely. If this is correct, they should surely be white underneath not pale yellow. Therefore Emerald BlueBlue is presumably impossible.
If I am wrong again please explain.
Kind regards
Mike
Mike, and an alternative to Recio's point of view, if blue1blue1 completely blocks the production of psittacin, and blue2blue2 completely blocks the production of psittacin, why does the blue1blue2 budgie have a yellow face? The reasoning of Recio regarding enzymatic regulation can also apply here.
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