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Another Puzzle...What am I?

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Skyes_crew
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Another Puzzle...What am I?

Post by Skyes_crew » Mon Jun 09, 2014 9:42 pm

Thoughts and opinions Please

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Skyes_crew
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Re: Another Puzzle...What am I?

Post by Skyes_crew » Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:51 am

Interesting Lee...But....can not be df violet based on the parents.

Does anyone else have any thoughts they'd like to share? :)
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Ring0Neck
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Re: Another Puzzle...What am I?

Post by Ring0Neck » Tue Jun 10, 2014 10:23 am

Sky

It's very purplish which would indicate the Cobalt-Violet combo however some breeders claim to have bred purple looking violets.

The turquoise phenotype is rather interesting here, i think it is going to be a heavy turquoise, nice one.


If there is another mutation in there, i'm thinking Slatey, seems to be a few Slaty in US.
(never seen a Turq Violet Cobalt Slaty)

what were the parents? (pics?)
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Skyes_crew
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Re: Another Puzzle...What am I?

Post by Skyes_crew » Tue Jun 10, 2014 11:20 am

Not ready to show the parents just yet...but here is one of the clutch mates

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Skyes_crew
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Re: Another Puzzle...What am I?

Post by Skyes_crew » Tue Jun 10, 2014 1:42 pm

Interesting thing about this bird...the base of the feather, near the rachis, and only where there are psittacin deposits, is cream colored instead of white. What would cause that?

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Last edited by Skyes_crew on Tue Jun 10, 2014 10:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Skyes_crew
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Re: Another Puzzle...What am I?

Post by Skyes_crew » Tue Jun 10, 2014 10:17 pm

Wow...nobody brave enough to offer an opinion? I will reveal the parents in time. I've given all the clues necessary for an educated guess at least.

Thank you Ben for your response. Cobalt is a factor, but not slaty.
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Farzz1
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Re: Another Puzzle...What am I?

Post by Farzz1 » Wed Jun 11, 2014 12:17 am

Hi
A rational guess dark violet sf turq emerald ?
Or a dark deep violet turq or indigo
I can only linger on those thoughts
Regards
S

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Re: Another Puzzle...What am I?

Post by Farzz1 » Wed Jun 11, 2014 12:18 am

violet deep emerald

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Re: Another Puzzle...What am I?

Post by John Shannon » Wed Jun 11, 2014 1:32 am

Violet Cobalt double factor Turquiose

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Re: Another Puzzle...What am I?

Post by Skyes_crew » Wed Jun 11, 2014 2:38 am

John, I would have agreed with you a couple of weeks ago, but I have my doubts now.

Farzz1...I think you're close.

Here is the mom w/ the clutch mate I already showed you guys.

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Re: Another Puzzle...What am I?

Post by Ring0Neck » Wed Jun 11, 2014 6:43 am

Sky,

A Violet EmeraldBlue young

http://parakeet.me/irn/m/PA255755.JPG

http://parakeet.me/irn/m/PA255747.JPG

Emeralds do not have patches like Turquoise
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Re: Another Puzzle...What am I?

Post by Johan S » Wed Jun 11, 2014 9:46 am

Cobalt violet turquoise. :)

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Skyes_crew
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Re: Another Puzzle...What am I?

Post by Skyes_crew » Wed Jun 11, 2014 10:46 am

Ben...I'm not going down the yellow brick road to emerald city just yet. :wink:

But I am curious to know why the general consensus is violet cobalt turquoise. Not arguing that it isn't, but just want to know why. I have both a violet and a violet cobalt and neither of them have ever been this dark or had this much yellow. Is the turquoise affecting the overall color, or is something else at play here. Here is the dad on left in pic one. And mom with two other clutch mates in pic 2.

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Last edited by Skyes_crew on Wed Jun 11, 2014 11:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Recio
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Re: Another Puzzle...What am I?

Post by Recio » Wed Jun 11, 2014 11:22 am

Hi Skyes_crew,

Could you confirm mother's phenotype? To me she looks like an Emerald TurquoiseBlue (or EmeraldTurquoise if you prefere). Emerald ... is evident. Turquoise because of her greener head and wing patches.

Regards

Recio

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Re: Another Puzzle...What am I?

Post by Skyes_crew » Wed Jun 11, 2014 11:58 am

Hi Recio,

I unfortunately can not confirm her phenotype. I can't even find a breeder with emerald in the states to compare this bird to. I only know what I see in a few of my parblues and the family tree from them. I also have two brothers of this hen and they too have similar markers. I have read through countless threads on Emerald TurquoiseBlue and I can't see where the standard has been set on this particular phenotype. I have done a little playing around with a UV torch, but not real sure how to interpret the results. Can you enlighten me please?

Thank you

Melissa
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Recio
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Re: Another Puzzle...What am I?

Post by Recio » Wed Jun 11, 2014 2:01 pm

Hi Melissa,

I do not own any Emerald bird and pics are often too different depending on lighting conditions. I would like to hear comments from breeders of Emerald on your female phenotype ... because if this girl is really an Emerald Turquoise all of her offspring must be Emerald or Turquoise and not one single Blue should appear. If there is any Blue in the offspring it would mean that Turquoise and Emerald are not allèles of the same gene. This is the reason of my question.

How to identify Emerald? Homogeneous distribution of psittacin (hard to say in an Emerald Turquoise), yellow underwing patch (but possibly also masked by Turquoise) and, mainly, special fluorescence under uv, with a different hue than the fluorescence you can see on the wing patches of any green, -ino or turquoise IRN. Maybe the best point to compare this fluorescence are the tail feathers.

Regards
Recio

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Re: Another Puzzle...What am I?

Post by Skyes_crew » Wed Jun 11, 2014 2:41 pm

Hi Recio,

There was not a single blue in the clutch...but the pair only gave one clutch this year, so IMO it's not conclusive.

Most of her body, exclusive of her head and wing patches, is an even color. Different to any other parblue I own. She has a light yellow strip in the underwing, and under the tail. More of a creamy very pale yellow in the ventral area. That being said...the male she is paired with as well as the original bird in question, show similar markers.

The offspring are the original bird in question in this thread, and the two on the perch to either side of the hen. Bird to the left of the hen shows some green on the tips of the secondaries, and IMO is not a blue. Bird to the right of the hen is a violet type, not sure if sf violet or violet cobalt. But interestingly, when the light hits this bird just right it shows a small amount of green in the head area. Will have to wait for the first moult to see if it progresses.

As for the UV, I have tested my lutino and a turquoise to get a baseline for what I'm looking for. I have two birds that share different results. This hen, and another I will reveal at a later time. They have an even, scalloped looking lighter color, sort of yellow blue if that makes sense, than my two baseline subjects...everywhere except where the patches on the wings are located. That has a brighter yellow.

That's all I have for now. I will continue to study this and hope to hear from some emerald breeders.

Thanks,

Melissa
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Re: Another Puzzle...What am I?

Post by Indian Ringneck Vic » Wed Jun 11, 2014 5:10 pm

Melissa

I don't have Emeralds though I do have a family of Indigo that I have been working with for some years. What I am confident of these birds appear in different colour morphs that is indicated in the colour of psittacine, one being Wild Green the other being Aqua Green now before the hysteric armchair experts go off on a witch hunt I am not trying to use Aqua as a name for these birds it is purely a descriptive term to describe the colour of psittacine. Now another observation with these birds including all the other members of the par blue family is they tend to play on colour altering phenotype of their offspring sometimes slightly, other times dramatically as I suspect is what has happend in your case my theory is the other factor your contending with there is likely to be Cobalt in the mix which is another wild card having worked with this mutation I am amazed at some of the results Cobalt is capable of achieving. Looking at your photo I would say the mother is an Indigo and the father belongs in the dark family both these are capable of producing some exciting results.

Cheers
Paul

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Re: Another Puzzle...What am I?

Post by Skyes_crew » Wed Jun 11, 2014 8:41 pm

Paul,

Thank you so much for your input. I've had many questions about indigo, but once again, not a mutation found easily in the US. Maybe you could answer some questions for me.

Do you find in your indigo birds a similar marker of the yellow underwing and under tail?

Do you find that indigo, maybe in conjunction with turquoise, can make a bird darker?

Until last year, my hen was paired to a df turquoise sf grey. He unfortunately died just prior to our last breeding season so that is why this hen was paired to the turquoise cobalt violet male. I kept back one of the offspring from last year who showed amazing color right out of pins. What is your opinion of this bird? And can this prove or disprove indigo?

This is the offspring

9 months old
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17 months
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Now...in heavy moult
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Re: Another Puzzle...What am I?

Post by Indian Ringneck Vic » Thu Jun 12, 2014 12:30 am

Melissa

Surprisingly neither of the two morphs of Indigo show yellow or lemon markers under the wing or tail which is surprising when you consider the Aqua morph to look so close to being identical to Emerald.(Emerald should be solid colour all over Indigo is always patchy)

Indigo certainly can in some instances enhance both Violet and Cobalt whereas Turquoise can have the same effect though the disadvantages Turquoise tends to blanket the bird in Green and when Turquoise is DF it tends to produce an almost entirely Green bird. Indigo on the other hand will not spread this psittacine further than approximately 30% on the birds body. Note here the chest and abdomen and approximately 20% of the wing coverts should be free from psittacine. This percentage should not alter no matter how many times Indigo are subjected to Homogeneous matings.

The bird in your photo is definitely a Turquoise and when you view the parents it will always turn out that way because when Turquoise and Indigo are bred together the Indigo is very rare. I believe this is due to Indigo being recessive to Turquoise.

Cheers
Paul

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Re: Another Puzzle...What am I?

Post by Skyes_crew » Thu Jun 12, 2014 10:09 am

Hi Paul,

Excellent information! Thank you so much. This girl will be paired up with a blue next year. Looking forward to the results.

Melissa
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Recio
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Re: Another Puzzle...What am I?

Post by Recio » Thu Jun 12, 2014 11:44 am

Hi Melissa,

Excellent idea to pair the female up to a Blue.
Do you remmeber if this female dysplayed already at fledging the same base colour ... or did it appear later progressively?

Regards

Recio
Last edited by Recio on Thu Jun 12, 2014 1:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Another Puzzle...What am I?

Post by Skyes_crew » Thu Jun 12, 2014 1:19 pm

Hi Recio,

Yes, she displayed that same, what I call, sea foam green, type color at fledging. She didn't develop any of the patches until her juvenile moult. I have another of her offspring from last year, a hen, that I'm going to catch up and take a closer look at this week. If I remember correctly she also displayed the same coloring as her mother at fledging. I'll let you know.

Thanks,
Melissa
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Re: Another Puzzle...What am I?

Post by Indian Ringneck Vic » Thu Jun 12, 2014 6:39 pm

Melissa

One last PS

Interestingly Turquoise and Indigo though look and act similar these two are vastly different when mixed with what I call a master gene whether it be recessive or sex linked eg: Pallid,Ino,Cinnamon,Bronz Fallow,CH Fallow,CHCT etc.

Turquoise produces yellow that is much deeper when a homogeneous Turquoise has been used these birds (both SF & DF) will always display vast amounts of green (excluding Ino of course here they are yellow SF & deep yellow DF) note DF Ino (creamino) display yellow under the wing which can be seen when the bird is in flight making these birds very pleasing to the eye

Indigo produces lemon that appeares the same when SF or DF birds have been used in the mating these always display vast amounts of blue and sometimes display a combination of lemon and blue on the back and wing coverts (excluding Ino here they are lemon and white)

The two morphs Wild Green and Aqua (sea green) I have very little data on the Aqua at this stage

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Re: Another Puzzle...What am I?

Post by Skyes_crew » Thu Jun 12, 2014 7:56 pm

Paul,

can you possibly provide me with an example, for my own visual reference, of a df and sf indigo? Because everyone's color perception is different, a visual would give me a much better concept of what you are describing.

Thanks
Melissa
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Kappa
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Re: Another Puzzle...What am I?

Post by Kappa » Sat Jun 14, 2014 8:16 pm

Hi Melissa,

Here are some photos i found on Ron's website http://fabulousparrots.com.au/galleries ... -ringnecks

sf indigo cock

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sf indigo hen and cock

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df indigo cock

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young df indigo cock

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I hope this helps you.
Cheers.

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Skyes_crew
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Re: Another Puzzle...What am I?

Post by Skyes_crew » Sat Jun 14, 2014 9:53 pm

Thank you Kappa...I truly appreciate your help :)

I am currently tracing the family tree back. Since I still have this hens parents and their parents, I'm working to get all my ducks in a row before I post all the info.

Thanks again to everyone who shared their thoughts and experience.
I am owned by my birds...and I wouldn't have it any other way :D

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Johan S
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Re: Another Puzzle...What am I?

Post by Johan S » Mon Jun 16, 2014 3:17 am

Indian Ringneck Vic wrote:Melissa

I don't have Emeralds though I do have a family of Indigo that I have been working with for some years. What I am confident of these birds appear in different colour morphs that is indicated in the colour of psittacine, one being Wild Green the other being Aqua Green now before the hysteric armchair experts go off on a witch hunt I am not trying to use Aqua as a name for these birds it is purely a descriptive term to describe the colour of psittacine. Now another observation with these birds including all the other members of the par blue family is they tend to play on colour altering phenotype of their offspring sometimes slightly, other times dramatically as I suspect is what has happend in your case my theory is the other factor your contending with there is likely to be Cobalt in the mix which is another wild card having worked with this mutation I am amazed at some of the results Cobalt is capable of achieving. Looking at your photo I would say the mother is an Indigo and the father belongs in the dark family both these are capable of producing some exciting results.

Cheers
Paul
Paul, I believe I have pictures illustrating exactly what you are talking about. The two birds in question are cobalt turquoiseblue, and the second cobalt indigoblue. The colour of the foreheads clearly illustrates the "different greens". I'd love to see these two birds in ino to compare the base yellow colour.

Image
Image

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Re: Another Puzzle...What am I?

Post by madas » Mon Jun 16, 2014 3:32 am

Johan S wrote: Paul, I believe I have pictures illustrating exactly what you are talking about. The two birds in question are cobalt turquoiseblue, and the second cobalt indigoblue. The colour of the foreheads clearly illustrates the "different greens". I'd love to see these two birds in ino to compare the base yellow colour.
So then breed them. :P

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