What is the exact mutation of this hen ?

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Sherjil
Posts: 141
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 4:11 am
Location: Faisalabad, Pakistan

What is the exact mutation of this hen ?

Post by Sherjil »

Dear All;

Need help to exactly id the mutation of this hen below ? Parents are Turquoise Blue split ino x Turquoise Blue ino. Sharing snaps of the hen and its parents.

The hen in question:

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Flights of hen

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Snaps of the Parents Father - Turquoise Blue split ino & Mother - Turquoise Blue ino

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head and ring of father

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Flights of father:

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Current Clutch mates of parent birds

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Sherjil
Posts: 141
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 4:11 am
Location: Faisalabad, Pakistan

Re: What is the exact mutation of this hen ?

Post by Sherjil »

Hi members; please do share your thoughts. Thanks
Recio
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Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:09 am
Location: France

Re: What is the exact mutation of this hen ?

Post by Recio »

Hi Sherjil,

Let's analyse one pigment each time:

1. For psittacins: both parents are, as you say, heterozygous ParblueBlue since they have been able to produce an albino bird (current clutch mates). Which is the parblue present in the parents? On my monitor it seems that the amount of psittacin present in the male is lower than in the female, and besides, the male ring does not show a red ring ... so I would think that the male is not a Turquoise parblue morphotype but probably an heterozygous IndigoBlue morphotype, owing less psittacin .... and I think that the parblue gene present in your female comes from her father, thus, explaining the lower amount of psittacin when compared to her mother.
From this pairing you should be able to get 3 different parblue morphotypes, regarding the psittacin amount, with the following genetic make up from less to higher psittacin content: IndigoBlue, TurquoiseBlue and TurquoiseIndigo.

2. For melanin: how to explain the residual melanin present in your bird?

2.1: We know for sure that the father is split SL-Ino since it has produced a creamino chick (Parblue SL-ino) among the current clutch mates. The father can not be at the same time split SL-ino and split Pallid because both are alleles of the same gene. So we can say that the father is not split Pallid, and that the amount of residual melanin present in your female does not depend on the partial expression of SL-Ino (Pallid) ... and that your female is not a rainbow combination (Pallid Parblue combo).

2.2: Since your bird is a female we should look for sex linked recessive mutations carried by the father. She is showing clear nails which has been described as a feature in Cinnamon birds (although there are some cinnamon birds owing grey nails). Which are the possible expressions of Cinnamon allowing to let some residual melanin? Two possibilities:
1. Cinnamon ParblueBlue ... phenotype does not really match.
2. Cinnamon SL-ino ParblueBlue
Let's suppose that your female is cinnamon. In this case the cinnamon gene would come from one of the sexual chromossomes of the father, and very probably (97%) from a different one that the chromossome carrying the SL-ino gene (otherwise SL-ino and Cinnamon would be inherited together, as a single gene, and it would have been very difficult, 3%, to produce the creamino chick in the current clutch). It would mean that both mutations (SL-Ino and Cinnamon) would be carried in a type II linkage configuration by the father and that it would be almost impossible to pass both mutations (Cinnamon and SL-ino) at the same time to the offspring. So, this latest option seems quite unlike to me.

2.3. Another sex linked mutation to consider is dom edge. This mutation would have been expressed by either the father (as heterozygous) or by the mother (as hemizygous), but, on my monitor, I can not see the edge markings in any of them. Besides, the edge mutation show dark nails and your female's nails are ligth. Something else: the edged pattern expressed in the female's wings is not the typical edge pattern. This pattern seems disrupted, specially on the open wing dorsal view ... could it be some kind of stress barring? Maybe people breeding edge birds will be able to develop further.

Regards

Recio
Sherjil
Posts: 141
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 4:11 am
Location: Faisalabad, Pakistan

Re: What is the exact mutation of this hen ?

Post by Sherjil »

Recio wrote:Hi Sherjil,

Let's analyse one pigment each time:

1. For psittacins: both parents are, as you say, heterozygous ParblueBlue since they have been able to produce an albino bird (current clutch mates). Which is the parblue present in the parents? On my monitor it seems that the amount of psittacin present in the male is lower than in the female, and besides, the male ring does not show a red ring ... so I would think that the male is not a Turquoise parblue morphotype but probably an heterozygous IndigoBlue morphotype, owing less psittacin .... and I think that the parblue gene present in your female comes from her father, thus, explaining the lower amount of psittacin when compared to her mother.
From this pairing you should be able to get 3 different parblue morphotypes, regarding the psittacin amount, with the following genetic make up from less to higher psittacin content: IndigoBlue, TurquoiseBlue and TurquoiseIndigo.

2. For melanin: how to explain the residual melanin present in your bird?

2.1: We know for sure that the father is split SL-Ino since it has produced a creamino chick (Parblue SL-ino) among the current clutch mates. The father can not be at the same time split SL-ino and split Pallid because both are alleles of the same gene. So we can say that the father is not split Pallid, and that the amount of residual melanin present in your female does not depend on the partial expression of SL-Ino (Pallid) ... and that your female is not a rainbow combination (Pallid Parblue combo).

2.2: Since your bird is a female we should look for sex linked recessive mutations carried by the father. She is showing clear nails which has been described as a feature in Cinnamon birds (although there are some cinnamon birds owing grey nails). Which are the possible expressions of Cinnamon allowing to let some residual melanin? Two possibilities:
1. Cinnamon ParblueBlue ... phenotype does not really match.
2. Cinnamon SL-ino ParblueBlue
Let's suppose that your female is cinnamon. In this case the cinnamon gene would come from one of the sexual chromossomes of the father, and very probably (97%) from a different one that the chromossome carrying the SL-ino gene (otherwise SL-ino and Cinnamon would be inherited together, as a single gene, and it would have been very difficult, 3%, to produce the creamino chick in the current clutch). It would mean that both mutations (SL-Ino and Cinnamon) would be carried in a type II linkage configuration by the father and that it would be almost impossible to pass both mutations (Cinnamon and SL-ino) at the same time to the offspring. So, this latest option seems quite unlike to me.

2.3. Another sex linked mutation to consider is dom edge. This mutation would have been expressed by either the father (as heterozygous) or by the mother (as hemizygous), but, on my monitor, I can not see the edge markings in any of them. Besides, the edge mutation show dark nails and your female's nails are ligth. Something else: the edged pattern expressed in the female's wings is not the typical edge pattern. This pattern seems disrupted, specially on the open wing dorsal view ... could it be some kind of stress barring? Maybe people breeding edge birds will be able to develop further.

Regards

Recio
Hi Recio;

Many thanks for a detailed reply & appreciate your time taken to explain it in an easy to understand manner :) So what we can conclude is that this hen is a Cinnamon Hetrozygous Parblue ?SL D Edged provided the marks on the flights dont vanish by next molt ?
Actually this hen belongs to a friend and when the snaps were first shown, my first guess was SL D Edged cinnamon turquoise blue. However upon requesting to see the flights of father I was uncertain about SL edged as it didnt show on father. Want to ask few more questions to understand this bird :-

1) As the bird is visual cinnamon & it is kept in an outdoor aviary, is it possible that the dilution on the flights may be due to exposure to the sun ? If so then why this dilution is showing a specific pattern rather than giving a bleached effect of the exposed flight feather area ?

2) The visual attributes shows that the hen is active and healthy, in fact the owner has paired it with a violet male & they are working the nest in this hot summer of Pak, can they really be stress marks ? For the sake of questioning lets suppose it carries SL D Edged then this makes that the father has ino on X1 & Cinnamon-SL D Edged (crossed over) combo on X2. With this genotype is it possible that SL D Edged is not visible on the flights due to crossing over with cinnamon plus effect of ino ? Anyone has a snap of a bird with similar genotype i.e. Hetrozygous Parblue split ino split cinnamon-SL D Edged ?

3) Coming to the parblue does the indigo blue strictly has a "white" & not a "creamy white" neck ring ? What is the neck ring color of homozygous indigo birds ?

regards;
Sherjil
Johan S
Posts: 1215
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:24 am
Location: Pretoria, South Africa

Re: What is the exact mutation of this hen ?

Post by Johan S »

Sherjil, was the hen born with red or black eyes?
Sherjil
Posts: 141
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 4:11 am
Location: Faisalabad, Pakistan

Re: What is the exact mutation of this hen ?

Post by Sherjil »

Johan S wrote:Sherjil, was the hen born with red or black eyes?
Hi Johan my apologies the breeder didn't notice this. Are you thinking about pastel ?
Johan S
Posts: 1215
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:24 am
Location: Pretoria, South Africa

Re: What is the exact mutation of this hen ?

Post by Johan S »

Pastel birds are born with black eyes and the allele bronze fallow with red, but I don't think either of those apply here. My best guess is that it is a strange looking cinnamon, although the flight feathers certainly does look edged. The cock bird doesn't show sl dom. edged traits in my view, unless he is very very lightly marked. But that doesn't seem plausible either. It is a mystery, and a pity we don't know the eye colour of the first days. No offence meant, but are you sure there wasn't perhaps a bit of a mix up with eggs being swopped?
khalid
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:22 am

Re: What is the exact mutation of this hen ?

Post by khalid »

Johan S wrote:Pastel birds are born with black eyes and the allele bronze fallow with red, but I don't think either of those apply here. My best guess is that it is a strange looking cinnamon, although the flight feathers certainly does look edged. The cock bird doesn't show sl dom. edged traits in my view, unless he is very very lightly marked. But that doesn't seem plausible either. It is a mystery, and a pity we don't know the eye colour of the first days. No offence meant, but are you sure there wasn't perhaps a bit of a mix up with eggs being swopped?
hi johan, assuming it was swapped what could be the parents of this bird?however, i am pretty certain there is no swapping involved as the pair is reputed to produce 'strange colours in blue'.
Johan S
Posts: 1215
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:24 am
Location: Pretoria, South Africa

Re: What is the exact mutation of this hen ?

Post by Johan S »

Hi Khalid, welcome to the forum. :D

In my humble opinion, the hen looks as if edged is involved. However, looking at the cock, that doesn't seem genetically possible, as the cock should be expressing it in single factor. It doesn't look as if he is edged, which means he is carrying a recessive gene, which most likely is cinnamon.

Nice mystery we have here.
Recio
Posts: 966
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:09 am
Location: France

Re: What is the exact mutation of this hen ?

Post by Recio »

Hi Sherjil,
Sherjil wrote: 1) As the bird is visual cinnamon & it is kept in an outdoor aviary, is it possible that the dilution on the flights may be due to exposure to the sun ? If so then why this dilution is showing a specific pattern rather than giving a bleached effect of the exposed flight feather area ?
I agree. It seems unlike that the feathers pattern is due to sun bleaching.
2) The visual attributes shows that the hen is active and healthy, in fact the owner has paired it with a violet male & they are working the nest in this hot summer of Pak, can they really be stress marks ? For the sake of questioning lets suppose it carries SL D Edged then this makes that the father has ino on X1 & Cinnamon-SL D Edged (crossed over) combo on X2. With this genotype is it possible that SL D Edged is not visible on the flights due to crossing over with cinnamon plus effect of ino ? Anyone has a snap of a bird with similar genotype i.e. Hetrozygous Parblue split ino split cinnamon-SL D Edged ?
Good analysis & I agree completelly. The question is: could the addition of cinnamon (and/or) SL-ino play a role in the expression of dom Edge? Tienie should be able to answer this question much better than any of us.
3) Coming to the parblue does the indigo blue strictly has a "white" & not a "creamy white" neck ring ? What is the neck ring color of homozygous indigo birds ?
The parblue puzzle was discussed in the past. For me the markers to consider the 3 different morphotypes of patched parblues are as follows, from more to less psittacin expressed:

Turquoise morphotype: Black, red and white ring in homozygous (TurquoiseTurquoise) and heterozygous birds (TurquoiseBlue)
Indigo morphotype: Black, red (ligth red) and white ring in homozygous birds (IndigoIndigo). Black and white ring in heterozygous birds (IndigoBlue)
Saphire morphotype: Black and white ring in both Homozygous (SaphireSaphire) and heterozygous birds (SaphireBlue).

You can get intermediate morphotypes by combining different alleles (TurquoiseIndigo, IndigoSaphire, ...) adding further confusion to the expected results. We can "class" the male according to its phenotype and genotype, but it is harder for the females (no ring). The best way to be sure that we are looking to an homozygous parblue mutation is to breed back an heterozygous chick to his heterozygous parent, as you have done with your Indigos. This should be done with any parblue allele looking a little different in intensity or distribution of psittacins if we want to know for sure the homozygous expression and how many different patched parblue alleles exist. Till then the best we can do is to adscribe the expressed morphotype as if it was due to a unique parblue allele type. That is something like "if the heterozygous and the homozygous parblue both express the red ring then it is a Turquoise allele which is at work". Why could not be two or more different "Turquoise" alleles, expressing different degrees of psittacins, but all of them in a high amount, enough to produce the red ring?

Regards

Recio
khalid
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:22 am

Re: What is the exact mutation of this hen ?

Post by khalid »

hi johan and others, thanks for the welcoming to the forum.i must admit i am not that new here, i have been reading the wonderfully informative passages from you and other experts(i would prefer calling you all aesthetes), as a guest reader.my fascination with irn is a year or so old, the affair should have started a long time ago since i am from a place which the irn would call home.i am pretty sure despite the many mutations the cupboard isnt empty..every time i see wild birds i wonder how many mutations they are masking...how i would love to find an answer to that but unfortunately, i cant tell a 'hawk from a handsaw'.so my first interest here is to learn that and get tips on what to look for and/or how to test them.in other words i desperately need a mentor.can we start with bird under discussion?what should be the better options for this hen.cock birds at hand are, violetblue, blue/ino(siblingof the hen),creamino,cobalt,pallids (blue, green and grey) and wildtype.
many thanks for reading.
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