Deep green revisited.

Kappa · Post by **Kappa** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 2:23 am

Hi everyone,
This might ruffle some feathers, pardon the pun.

Firstly, I must state that this is not an exercise to prove who is right or who is wrong. Both Ron and Willy have vast experience in mutation breeding and are very knowledgeable in what they do. However, we all know that the photo of Ron's deep green raised some eyebrows. It caught everyone by surprise, and personally I thought that it was possibly a deep dark green instead of a deep green.

All of us who have experimented with different structural combinations know that a point is reached where identification becomes complex and very difficult. What complicates matters further is the variations we have in phenotypes of any given mutation. Is it at all possible then that Ron some how misidentified one of his birds, and therefore lead him to incorrectly classify his bird as a deep green? I assume that Ron keeps detailed breeding records, but any records are only as good as the accuracy of the information being recorded. A misidentification of past results will produce future surprises.

This post is merely offering another alternative possibility as to what the phenotype of a deep green might be.

I know I'm going over old ground, however since Willy's article on deeps in Bird Keeper Magazine, I decided to revisit and revise all the information I collected in-regard to my deep greens. I took comparison photos over time with my deep green and a wildtype of the same age, and even took uv photos of them to try an identify any differences. I shared my findings with a fellow breeder of deeps and he also doubted that Ron's deep green was an accurate representation of a deep green.

Things changed very quickly for me when he confidently and without hesitation took one look at my juvenile deep green and identified it as such. Furthermore, he went on to state that it looks exactly like his mature deep green hen. I asked him how he could be so confident in his decision and he pointed out that it has the blue green sheen/shine over its wings which is typical of a deep green. Something that is very difficult to make show in photos.

So here are some of my photos

Deep on right. Fledgling photos

.
Deep on left

Juvenile moult . 7-8 months.
Deep in foreground.

Under uv. Deep much brighter.

Any thoughts?
Regards,
Kappa.

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 8:30 pm

Hi Kappa,

I must admit, I too was surprised by Ron's Deep Green phenotype being rather dark.
However a couple of weeks ago i have spoken to John Friske, he has had the Deeps many years ago and amongst other things he said
(paraphrasing here): "and they bred these really dark greens darker than the dark greens" .

I have a few theories on this but i'd rather wait till after this breeding season as i have about 7 pairs of Deeps and the results of these pairs will tell us more.
(Most of my Deeps were bred from Martin's Deep he sold to Mark years back)
** One thing i don't have and hope Willy and or Ron can help.
DF Deep Blue that parents came from 2 diff. sources (breeders) 1 from QLD & 1 from VIC
DF Deep Blue X Blue a few of these to be paired up. What we could see is some unexpected results like deeps of 2 diff. colors & blues being bred & if that would be so it'd prove my suspicion that we have 2 types of Deeps. <= Suspicion not fact!

or pairing DF Deep Blue X DF Deep Blue is another good pairing for this test

More work is needed to be done before we can conclude anything concrete IMO.

Kappa · Post by **Kappa** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 11:58 pm

Hi Ben,

Your information from JF about producing birds that darker than dark green, could plausibly mean that it would be possible to produce darker than dark blue from the genes such birds. Now that would be nice, and imagine that in df.

I can see whee you're coming from. I have personally seen variations in the deep blue phenotype that goes from birds that are very light, almost normal blue, to birds that are nearly as dark as an EU cobalt.

On top of that I have seen birds in df deep that are what you would expect, a darker blue, and some df deep, that without any reference birds could be easily mistaken for a violetblue.

What makes matters worse is that some of this extreme variation occurs in clutches of the same breeding pair over time.

Also what I find interesting is that some of the deeps have a characteristic shine about them and others don't.

So I guess there is no reason then that the same can't be true in the green series birds. We could have a wider range of phenotypes going from light (like mine) to dark (like Ron's).

I can't wait to see what your season brings, and what questions can be answered.

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Sat Mar 29, 2014 12:02 am

Ring0Neck wrote:(paraphrasing here): "and they bred these really dark greens darker than the dark greens" .

This, along with the blueish tint on the coverts close to the flights and the lighter blue than a dark green main tail feather, for me, are trademarks of the NT violet. The one remarkable thing for me is that, in the green series, they are darker than a dark green, yet in the blue series, they appear the opposite and are lighter than a cobalt.

And I agree, there is still a lot to be learnt from them.

Ring0Neck wrote:my suspicion that we have 2 types of Deeps. <= Suspicion not fact!

And one of those will most probably be the NT violet.

Kappa wrote:On top of that I have seen birds in df deep that are what you would expect, a darker blue, and some df deep, that without any reference birds could be easily mistaken for a violetblue.

Kappa, I'd love to see those two next to one another.

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Sat Mar 29, 2014 12:34 am

Johan S wrote:
Ring0Neck wrote:my suspicion that we have 2 types of Deeps. <= Suspicion not fact!
And one of those will most probably be the NT violet.

Kappa wrote:On top of that I have seen birds in df deep that are what you would expect, a darker blue, and some df deep, that without any reference birds could be easily mistaken for a violetblue.
Kappa, I'd love to see those two next to one another.

I think we are making progress.

That's one thing that is probably most frustrating, the fact that some look like violet .
I think the Deeps from Jack & Martin are such birds but Willy's most deeps are of the other type which i think is more consistent, Ron has both types as well (Assumption based on where they acquired the Deeps from and breeding results).

Perhaps we would need Green Deeps be bred to establish the type (if indeed there's 2 types)

Here's the pic from Martin or Jack (can't remember as i got the pic from Willy) and the DF Deep looks rather violet like IMO.

DF Violet, Deep, DF Dark, DF Deep Blues

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Sat Mar 29, 2014 5:13 am

Willy said in email:
"... have yet to breed a Deep Green but hope to this year. I will confirm that there are varying shades of Deep Blue in my flock. Some could even be darker than Cobalts. I will be imaging as many comparisons as I can over the coming month. Interestingly Martin says the original Deep Greens are not as dark as what Ron has imaged either. He sent me a pic attached of what he says is a Deep Green which does look like Kappa’s. If we do in fact have multiple Deep Blue look a-likes we still have only one Deep and need to separate them out as Ben says and hopefully identify by different DF phenotypes a different new mutation. ..."

Kappa · Post by **Kappa** » Sat Mar 29, 2014 3:01 pm

Hi Ben,
Thanks for that info from Willy. It substantiates what I have seen in the flocks of others, and yes I agree that these different variants need to be matched together and see if any df offspring are produced form such pairings. This would help narrow down the true deeps, and possibly identify anything else at play.

I must say that I had some blues bred from parings of blue and deep, and IMO the deep had some influence on them by producing a better coloured blue. They weren't deep, but a nicer blue. There was a slight, but definite darker shade of blue in the flights and the tail. I wonder if some of these could be out there mistakenly labelled as deep.

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Sun Mar 30, 2014 12:55 am

Kappa, there is a bit of talk of these nicer, slightly darker blues over here too. What I'd like to see is what two of these birds produce together. Would a double factor emerge? What would it look like?

Kappa · Post by **Kappa** » Sun Mar 30, 2014 6:39 pm

Johan,

I had two such blues. They were brothers, but I have moved them on, so I won't be able to answer your question.

Lushen1600 · Post by **Lushen1600** » Sun Mar 30, 2014 10:53 pm

Hi Kappa, with the pic of your 2 chicks, deep green and green respectively, does a green bird show flourescence under uv light and if so, how much compared to a deep green?

Thanks
Lushen

Kappa · Post by **Kappa** » Sun Mar 30, 2014 11:07 pm

Hi Lushen,
If you go to the start of the thread you will see a uv photo of the deep and wildtype. The deep is much brighter.

Lushen1600 · Post by **Lushen1600** » Sun Mar 30, 2014 11:16 pm

Hi Kappa, thanks for the reply, I have a green hen, that I'm still trying to figure out what she is cos she doesn't look like a normal green, here is a pic of her right wing under UV light, tell me what you think

Thanks
Lushen

Kappa · Post by **Kappa** » Mon Mar 31, 2014 1:42 am

Hi Lushen,
I can't really comment because I only have looked at juveniles under uv. So I don't know the extent of the fluoresence of an adult green hen. Do you have another adult green hen to compare with? I don't have an adult green hen. I will however, take some photos of the deep green cock under uv this weekend and see what happens.

Has anyone got photos of an adult green hen under uv? I wouldn't mind seeing the results myself, but they also may help Lushen with his question. Thanks.

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Mon Mar 31, 2014 1:57 am

Kappa,

Can you give us info on your Deep Green's history?
parents? and did you get the deep parent/s from Martin directly?
I know you have told us this info in the past but i don't remember which thread etc.

Thanks
Ben

Kappa · Post by **Kappa** » Mon Mar 31, 2014 2:45 am

Hi Ben,

The history behind my birds is as follows:
The original sire(df deep green) of these birds was purchased from JS by a breeder in Victoria called Ross Nickoli. He paired him to a turquoise blue hen and they had 3 chicks. 2 cocks and a hen.

Martin purchased the cock and three juveniles. Martin never got to breed with the df deep green cock as he was killed by a hen he was to be paired with. Martin did breed with the 2 young cocks for one season, but they proved to be split ino so he moved them on. In the mean time Martin moved on to deep blues and sold the deep green hen to another breeder I know. This other breeder bred my deep green cock from her and the following year paired her to a blue split pallid cock which produce my deep green pallid hen. So purchased indirectly from Martin.

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Mon Mar 31, 2014 3:03 am

Great stuff Kappa.

It is best to know what bloodlines breed what type of Deep greens, so your info is valuable.

I have most of my birds paired up.
I have a Deep Blue hen paired to a Violet Green /poss Opaline and she comes from Martin's Deep Blue birds.
The other Deeps are all paired to Blue/Parblue series partners.
We'll see what they throw this season.

I'm sure that Willy is onboard to breed a few Deep Greens this season perhaps Ron as well and hopefully after this season we can answer
some of the Qs in relation to the differences in phenotype.

I personally think the darker deeps come from a diff. bloodline not JS's /Martin but bred by someone here in QLD as Friske said that they were darker than Dark Green.

As Johan says, one type could well be the same as their NT birds. wouldn't surprise me.

Lushen1600 · Post by **Lushen1600** » Mon Mar 31, 2014 5:49 am

Hi Kappa, sorry, I don't have another green hen to put under UV light as I recently sold 4 pairs of greens that I had to make way for better mutations, I kept this green hen with a plain green cock cos she looked different from other green hens, would like to see from others what an adult normal green hen looks like under UV light

Thanks
Lushen

John Shannon · Post by **John Shannon** » Mon Mar 31, 2014 6:12 am

Hi Lushen,
I can't really comment because I only have looked at juveniles under uv. So I don't know the extent of the fluoresence of an adult green hen. Do you have another adult green hen to compare with? I don't have an adult green hen. I will however, take some photos of the deep green cock under uv this weekend and see what happens.

Has anyone got photos of an adult green hen under uv? I wouldn't mind seeing the results myself, but they also may help Lushen with his question. Thanks.

Hi I have a photo of a Violet green under UV lighting

John Shannon · Post by **John Shannon** » Mon Mar 31, 2014 6:21 am

This is the same hen 2006 Violet green

Kappa · Post by **Kappa** » Mon Mar 31, 2014 11:19 am

Ben,
That's good to hear. I think going back to basics and starting from scratch will prove to be the best option here. I hope that there is more to this than we expect.

I have split up my deeps this season. The deep cock is with a df violet hen and the deep hen is with a blue cock. No df deep green this season

. I needed to expand my range of colours

Kappa · Post by **Kappa** » Sat Apr 05, 2014 8:45 pm

Hi Lushen,
Here are some photos of my deep green cock under uv.

Hi John Shannon,
I was just wondering what kind of uv light you have used in your photos? I just can't get that intensity of flouresence from the one I have been using.
Thanks.

John Shannon · Post by **John Shannon** » Sat Apr 05, 2014 10:19 pm

Hi Kappa
It is just a 240 volt UV black tube light I bought from a local computer shop.

Kappa · Post by **Kappa** » Sat Apr 05, 2014 11:42 pm

Hi John,
Thanks for that. I will have to chase one up. I've been using one I purchased off the shelf from Bunnings, but I don't think it filters out the light enough.

Mad Max · Post by **Mad Max** » Sun Apr 06, 2014 5:11 am

Hi Kappa

There are flashlights now availabe that go up to 150 nm of uv light intencity . I just googled uv flashlight and found a shop in the city , Peter was kind enough to collect it for me .
The flash light is handy cause I dont need extra hands when I inspect the birds or take photos

Regards
Robert

Kappa · Post by **Kappa** » Sun Apr 06, 2014 5:09 pm

Hi Robert,
Thanks for the info. I will check it out.
Cheers,
Kappa

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Sun Apr 13, 2014 8:58 am

Back on the Deep color variation, Willy has taken pics of 5 SF Deep Blues to portait the variance already exists.

Age abviously play a role in their final phenotype.

Willy said:

The 5 Deep Blues show the range of variance in my SF Deep Blues. The cocks generally appear slightly greyer on the back when mature however the not yet mature cock in the images doesn’t have it yet.

sheyd · Post by **sheyd** » Sun Apr 13, 2014 3:37 pm

Great set of pics- do you think Willy could throw sfDark and Euro sfViolet Blues into the mix?

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Mon Apr 14, 2014 2:49 am

That's a really nice pic. Ben, do you know whether all these birds were bred from a single source, or are they from more than one source?

The two darker males are dead ringers for the NT violets this side. The mature cock at the bottom (lighter phenotype) seems different to anything I've run across over here. That's a good "half cobalt", and perfectly explains the DF not being mauve (given the mechanism of reducing the width of the spongy zone was the same).

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Mon Apr 14, 2014 3:01 am

do you know whether all these birds were bred from a single source, or are they from more than one source?

Willy has told us that he sourced his Deeps from 3 breeders if i remember correctly.

Ron & Martin,
& a QLD breeder; which is the type of deeps i believe are darker in green. since Martin has told Willy that his deep greens are also lighter in color.
Ron pretty sure has from both sources also. that being the reason IMO why some DFs are darker while others are rather light colored but deep nice blue to them.

I guess it is now a matter of working out which birds are from which bloodine.

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Mon Apr 14, 2014 3:33 am

Ok, Ben, so when you say a picture showing 'variation in deep', we could also be looking at two different (but very close) mutations or alleles, and not necessarily variation (like juvenile turquoise expression).

The difference of course being, variation is the difference in expression in phenotype in the same bloodline, while different expressions in phenotype from different bloodlines could be caused by variation (same mutation from different sources), or by another allele of the locus or by a completely different mutation (different locus) with a very similar expression (take the two ino mutations, or edged and cinnamon). I believe this also links in to your observation that there might be more than one type of deep.

Has Willy et al. shown that the two phenotypes are alleles, or have they only recently started picking up on this difference?

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Mon Apr 14, 2014 3:40 am

I personally think we have 2 types but that's just me.

Only recently, since the green deeps were bred and the 2 types were clearly visible
Willy is working on this which is great as he has both types

Another allele of the locus or by a completely different mutation (different locus) with a very similar expression

time will tell
in saying that, what has been noticed is that the color seems to evolve somehow.
imagine if all are just 1 mutation but showing a huge range in expressivity, much more than opaline in birds do

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Mon Apr 14, 2014 3:58 am

here is a good example of mutation progress (opaline in this case) in Turquoisine Parrots & selective breeding at work

http://parakeet.me/irn/m/em/P4141256.JPG

madas · Post by **madas** » Mon Apr 14, 2014 5:10 am

Ring0Neck wrote:

Ben has interchanged one of Willy pics. So here is the correct second one. Now the three males look nearly the same beside small deviations which should be caused by the blue base color. Furthermore the bird in the background isn't exposed by sunlight:

Kappa · Post by **Kappa** » Mon Apr 14, 2014 5:24 pm

Interestingly enough, Martin's deeps come from only one source and he still gets variations in colour. He has told me that the colour can vary between clutches of chicks from the same pair.

Johan, I will see if I can organise some photos of the variation I have seen in his df deeps. I don't know if he will, I can only ask.

Snake · Post by **Snake** » Fri May 02, 2014 7:12 am

I have a picture of a deep green hen that I got the other day ,( pic not bird )
I could ask the owner if he doesn't mind me sharing the pic
If you's are interested.

Kappa · Post by **Kappa** » Fri May 02, 2014 9:21 am

Hi Snake,

Absolutely yes. The more info we can gather on deeps the better. Also see if your friend can provide some background history on the bird not only parentage, but any details they can trace back, of breeders this hen came from. If they don't mind of course.

willowisp71 · Post by **willowisp71** » Fri May 02, 2014 11:58 pm

Hi All, just a novice so hope you don't mind my input here, but I'm as intrigued as the rest of you regarding these Deeps and their variations.
Madas, even accounting for the variance in sunlight on that last pic, it still appears to me that (going from front to back) Bird 2 and Bird 5 are of similar shade, and then Bird 1 and Bird 3 are alike, but different to 2 & 5 - Bird 4 appears 'lighter', even slightly 'greenish?' maybe through the back/wings?

Thanks Ring0neck (and of course Willy), for showing these pics - it's great to have quality photo's to use as reference and as a comparison tool.

Bookmarking this thread

Snake · Post by **Snake** » Sat May 03, 2014 1:47 am

Hey Kappa ,
Forgot all about it , I will message him now ......
I think you might no the history on it , as its one of Martins .......

His green deeps have coloured the same as the originals ,
Looking like a normal green but with a blue sheen .....

Snake · Post by **Snake** » Sat May 03, 2014 3:05 am

Martin said it was fine for me to post his pic , but I can't upload it says it's to big and I have no idea how to make it smaller ......

If you message me your email will send them to that ..

Kappa · Post by **Kappa** » Sat May 03, 2014 5:09 am

Hi Snake,
I will send you my email in a pm. I can then post it for you.

Snake · Post by **Snake** » Sat May 03, 2014 5:47 am

No worries

Snake · Post by **Snake** » Sat May 03, 2014 6:26 am

Martin resized them for me

Same bird

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Sat May 03, 2014 6:55 am

Snake & Martin Thanks for the pics.

It seems at this stage that we do have 2 types of Deeps as suspected.

Could this Deep type be the same as the SA Deep ?
I can see the same features in both birds, color seems different but that could be lighting/camera etc

Tienie, your opinion is welcome also if you're reading this.

Kappa · Post by **Kappa** » Sat May 03, 2014 4:56 pm

Hi Ben,
What do you reckon, anything in this?
For those who aren't aware theses are photos of Ron's deep green juvenile and a NT violet green from SA, Johan's bird.

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Sat May 03, 2014 8:00 pm

Kappa,

It's a taugh call, young v mature there's room for error.

My deeps are the same bloodline as Martin's so i will need to get some of the darker ones.
Ron & Willy has both types if indeed there's two.
Perhaps Willy & Ron could look at the mature birds from J.S./Martin's V Qld line to pick if there's any difference in phenotype.

Snake · Post by **Snake** » Sat May 03, 2014 8:42 pm

Depends on the lighting , both pics I put up are of the same hen
One looks like the bird in the top of the post and the other similar to the sa deep..

I'm not sure about 2 types of deeps , some breeders have put deep with dark and this might be the second darker ones ....
Martin has never put his deeps over dark , for this reason I would go by his for colouring .

Snake · Post by **Snake** » Sat May 03, 2014 8:55 pm

But in saying that I believe Martin has produced the odd deep that is darker than a euro cobalt .
So might be possible of 2 types of deeps .... Lol

Correct me if I'm wrong Martin

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Sat May 03, 2014 9:01 pm

Snake wrote:But in saying that I believe Martin has produced the odd deep that is darker than a euro cobalt .
So might be possible of 2 types of deeps .... Lol

Correct me if I'm wrong Martin

If Martin bred a very dark Deep then it points back to 1 single Deep mutation with a large variation in phenotype because we know
Martin did not acquire Deep birds from QLD source.
Willy & Ron have also reported variation in Deeps including Ron in DFs.

Snake · Post by **Snake** » Sat May 03, 2014 11:27 pm

I'm looking forward to see what I get this year

DF , green , pastels

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Sun May 04, 2014 1:53 am

Willy Said :

For what its worth, I checked my records and the lighter of the Deep Blue cocks in front in the 1st image was the only Deep I have sourced from Martin. Unfortunately I find myself with no Green series bird to pair it with so that will have to wait. I do have a Deep Blue hen bred from the Qld birds with a Green Dom Pied set up for this year. I have the Martin Deep Blue cock set up with a DF Deep TurquoiseBlue (Qld) hen for this year. The two Deeps will be found in half the young, hopefully without Turquoise. If it turns out there are 2 mutations after the respective DF birds are bred, the name Deep will be ascribed to the darker type as that is all I have bred. Martin’s (Smith’s) lighter type will need a new name. I am excited however, if the mutations are compounding in their expression then I’ll have yet another structural colour to further darken these birds. I do believe, on Martin’s evidence of light and dark Deep Blues being bred, that there is just a variation in the Deep mutation. Obviously selection will play a role in selecting for the darkest.

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Sun May 04, 2014 4:17 am

Kappa wrote:Hi Ben,
What do you reckon, anything in this?
For those who aren't aware theses are photos of Ron's deep green juvenile and a NT violet green from SA, Johan's bird.

Hi Kappa, not my bird. I only took the picture.

The 2 clear traits in the green series birds in SA is 1) the bird's body colour looks darker than a dark green, yet the tail is significantly lighter and between normal blue and dark blue, and 2) the row of blue feathers in the wing coverts just above the flights (esp. evident in the picture Ben uploaded).

gattman · Post by **gattman** » Sun May 04, 2014 6:31 am

Hi everyone,

A few days ago I was urged to check out this site as it would make some interesting reading, so I did and must admit it was entertaining. I thought I would take the time to clarify some things about Deeps and share some information that hopefully everyone can use to benefit their breeding programs. I have been breeding Deeps for over 10 years now, and have been ridiculed by fellow aviculturalists since I purchased them. I was constantly told that they weren't real cobalts, no different to normal Blues, would never double factor, and couldn't be anything worth breeding as they were originally bred from Green birds. Luckily, I didn't listen to uneducated opinionated aviculturalists and continued to do my own thing.

Over the years I have bred many Deeps, admittedly not as many as what I would have liked. Majority of my Deeps in the first 5 years were paired to straight Blue birds, producing on average 3 or 4 Blues to every Deep bird bred, much to my frustration. Each season I changed the matings of each pair in order to improve the genetics of the offspring. Over the years, I have bred varying shades of blue in the Deep birds. Some have been a shade or two lighter than my original Deeps, and some darker, even darker than the typical European Cobalt (Dark). I have been unable to figure out a reasonable explanation for this colour variation.

There has been much discussion about whether or not there are 2 types/variants of Deeps here in Australia, based on where or who they were purchased from. I can say with 100% confidence that there is NOT 2 types of Deeps in Australia as they all came from the 1 source. The first Deep bred came from Green birds that looked "a little different" by an old aviculturalist in far western Victoria many years ago. That first bird, a cock, is pictured in a photo I sent Willy, which Ben subsequently posted on this site on 29th March (2nd bird from left). That breeder obtained a colony of green birds which contained what we now know as Deep Greens from the Smith brothers, who had received them from a deceased estate and not knowing their history. The Smith brothers thought they may be different, but were not fully convinced as the birds looked virtually like normal Green ringnecks with only a subtle difference. When they sold the entire colony, the new owner agreed that if he bred something special from the Greens, he would give the Smiths 1. Several years later, the first Deep cock was bred. To my knowledge, no other Deeps were produced from the colony of Green looking birds. When that Deep cock matured, he was paired to a Blue hen and produced 3 Deep hens in the nest, 1 with a leg deformity. The following season, the pair produced 2 Deep cocks and 2 Deep hens. True to his word, the breeder gave 1 of the young cocks to the Smith brothers, and sold its siblings, a cock and 2 hens along with the 2 x 1 year old hens to a breeder in Melbourne, whilst keeping the hen with the leg deformity. Within a year, the breeder with the 5 Deeps decided to sell them off. I purchased the 2 younger hens, and the young cock and 2 hens that were rising 2 year old were sold to Ron. I saw these 5 birds on many occasions as I purchased many birds off this breeder, and he wanted me to purchase all 5 but it exceeded my finances at the time. The history of the Deeps was confirmed by the original breeder from far western Victoria, when I contacted him and went to visit him. I expressed my intent to learn more about this colour and the desire to put 2 Deeps together in the hope of breeding a double factor. This excited him as he felt he was too old to experiment, so he was happy to supply me with birds, both young and reaching maturity which I purchased. We formed a friendship, and I visited him several times a year for the next few years until his sudden death. It was after his death that his widow contacted me and offered me his collection of birds which I happily purchased.

As I started with hens and only bred Deep hens for the first 3 seasons it took me many years to breed my first double factor bird, which unfortunately died in the nest. It was then another 2 seasons later until I bred my next one. They have since matured and bred true to a DF, so I am able to prove to the sceptics that they will double factor. On the topic of colour variation from before, I have bred a typical Deep DF which is an intense dark blue bird, and from the same parents in the second clutch of the same year bred a Deep DF that was a Violet looking bird (will post some comparison pics soon). The parents of these 2 DFs were a Turquoise Deep cock that I bought off Jack Smith and a Deep hen that I bred myself. It is interesting to note that the following year I bred 3 Blues and 4 Turquoise Blues from the same pair.

As you can see from the pics that Snake posted on my behalf of my Deep Green hen, the subtle blue haze on the wing can be easily overlooked to the unsuspecting eye, and is indicative of the phenotype of the birds that produced the original Deep Blue cock, which is now in my possession. I have also found in every occasion that I have produced a Deep Violet from mating a Deep to a Violet, the Deep Violets have always been visibly darker birds with stronger colour depth than European Violet Cobalt birds.

Hopefully, I have clarified some myths and previously unanswered questions for you guys to enable you to make educated decisions on your future pairings and breeding programs. Breeding Deeps over the years has been both exciting and frustrating in my experience, but well worth it in the long run as we venture into colour combinations different to Cobalt and not seen in Australia before.

Cheers,
Martin

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Sun May 04, 2014 7:33 am

Hi Martin, welcome to the forum. I hope you will enjoy the interaction and discussions.

Thanks for the very informative post. I'll have to read it again to allow everything to sink in.

While I do that, what are your thoughts on the birds commonly known in SA as Nico Theunissen violets, which many think may be the same mutation as the Oz deep?

Snake · Post by **Snake** » Sun May 04, 2014 6:55 pm

Thanks for coming on and sharing your information Martin
It's always much better when it comes straight from the source

Cheers

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Mon May 05, 2014 4:12 am

Hi Martin,

Welcome to the forum & Thanks for taking the time to unvail the history behind the deeps. Much appreciated.

It is always good to know how a new mutation came about and a good example how other mutations can appear and be lost just as quick if breeders do not observe and work with the new mutation rigurously.

Being a new member here you will not be able to post pics for a while but you can send them via email to anyone
If you have high res pics you can email them to me & i can upload them here, do not resize them.
green@
techemail.com

Ben

Kappa · Post by **Kappa** » Mon May 05, 2014 4:27 am

Hi Martin,
Welcome aboard. Thanks for explaining to everyone the background, the discovery and development of the deeps. Like Snake said its best said coming from the horses mouth.

There was so much we disscused in private conversations, which I never knew how much you would feel comfortable being made public. This way at least you can answer everyone's questions individually, and I'm sure there will be many.

I hope we don't scare you off

gattman · Post by **gattman** » Mon May 05, 2014 5:40 pm

Hi all,

Thanks for the warm welcome. I must admit my email inbox and mobile took a beating (in a good way) yesterday after my first post. I apologise if anyone suffered from information overload. I must say that it has been confirmed to me by relevant people that my account on the history was correct, as I knew it was anyway.

On the Deep Green topic, I have bred 3 over the years from 2 different pairs. They have all looked exactly the same as the pictures already posted on my behalf. I have never been keen in breeding green series birds in any of my breeding programs so I never really put much emphasis on breeding Deep Greens. The pictured Deep Green is now a rising 3 yr old hen and has naturally paired up with a Deep cock of the same age in a colony aviary so I've got my fingers crossed for some DFs this coming season. The grandfather of this bird was supposedly a DF Deep Green that came from the Smith's aviaries. I bought him years ago but never got to breed with him as he was killed by a hen a few months after I got him. He was the grandfather of Kappa's Deep Green that he has posted pics of. I say he is a supposed DF Deep Green, as he only bred for 1 season with a Turquoise Blue hen and produced 3 Green series birds. As there was no Blue series bred, I couldn't confirm that he had bred a Deep Blue which is much easier to distinguish in the nest. He was a different coloured bird, admittedly a colour that I didn't expect a DF Deep Green to be. I never took a pick of him, but the best way to describe him would be that he was a dirty, mustard/green looking colour.

In response to Johan's question regarding comparisons with SA/TN birds, I must say that unfortunately I'm ignorant on the birds and colour variotions overseas. I have not paid much attention to developments outside of Aus, so I'm not sure if I can be much help on this. I have looked at the posted pics and there does look to be similarities in the Green series birds, particularly in the blue hazing in the wings, although it looks darker in the SA birds. I understand this can vary greatly in pics due to lighting, as I see examples of this in my own Deep Green bird pics.

As explained, in my experience there have been variations in depth of colour with Deeps, usually only slight differences rather than major ones. I am by no means a photographer, but will endeavor to get you some comparison shots soon.

Cheers
Martin

Kappa · Post by **Kappa** » Tue May 06, 2014 2:09 am

Hi everyone,
I've been mulling over an idea for a little while now. It's been at the back of my mind ever since Ben posted the first photo of my deep green cock with flash. The fact that our SA friends were so sure it was a misty, made me wonder if,( you're going to like this Ben) misty birds

were with deep ones in the flock of birds that was imported (I use the term loosely

). Both mutations are very difficult to identify from wildtype. So the unexplained variation we see might just well be the influence of misty. Just a thought.
For those who haven't seen it

What would be great is that if breeders who own misty in violet and EU cobalt could post some photos so that we can see the effect misty has on them. Preferably birds with out turquiose. I am very curious to see the phenotype it produces and how they might compare to our deep blue.

The other thing that puzzled me was the photo of the mauve in the Bastiaan book which looks very much like a df deep blue, and not the grey colour we are used to identifying as df dark.

Kappa · Post by **Kappa** » Tue May 06, 2014 2:20 am

Hi everyone,
A puzzle from Martin. Which are the deeps and which are the cobalts?

Snake · Post by **Snake** » Tue May 06, 2014 2:47 am

Middle 1 a deep ?

Snake · Post by **Snake** » Tue May 06, 2014 2:50 am

Thinking the 1 with the long tail is a deep aswell ?

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Tue May 06, 2014 2:51 am

( you're going to like this Ben) misty birds

Love it
I will post something on this later

Re: Puzzle

2nd pic L2R

Orange peel on a hook

Dark, Deep, Deep
Based on what?
The dark/black flights of Cobalt & Deep's dark green&blue

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Tue May 06, 2014 3:28 am

Kappa,

It can happen for sure. an unsuspected blue misty paired to a deep blue would throw everyone off.
Is it likely??
Firstly we need to pin down Blue Misty in Oz.

I have acquired a "Violet Misty" cobaltish looking bird. I paired him to a Blue series hen if indeed is carrying Misty i should breed
this season blue misty as well as violet blues without misty if i'm lucky, that will prove misty.
Then we have 100% proven Misty Blue to work with and learn in IDing misty.
ATM i think we have anywhere from 0% to 30% misty in OZ IRNs
Misty Cobalt or Violet would be very close in phenotype to Deeps and easily mistaken i think, this is where record keeping is paramount.

However, Deeps can not be Misty !
Why?
Based on Martin's explanation how the first Deeps were bred from a Green series Deep paired to a Blue
If Deeps were Misty the offspring would not have been 3 Deeps but 3 Blue Misty which we all know they are "shade lighter" than blue itself , yet the Deep Blues are close to Eu Cobalt's color proximity.

You already have a Green Deep, pairing it to a Blue will give you the confirmation of above.

Kappa · Post by **Kappa** » Tue May 06, 2014 3:36 am

Sorry Ben and Snake,
Both wrong, but don't worry it took me a while.

I think Martin's got sore cheeks from laughing

Must let you know both of you have got 1 deep right.

Kappa · Post by **Kappa** » Tue May 06, 2014 3:58 am

Ben,
I was thinking more along the lines that there may have been some deep misty's produced from those original green birds. So some bloodlines may be just deep while others may carry both deep and misty thereby producing the variation. I could be clutching at straws.

BTW do you happen to have a photo of the df deep green cock that was post a while back on Shey's thread on pictures of deep and dark greens. It was taken with flash an he was very bronze looking. Just wondering If Martin can comment on if its what his bird looked like.

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Tue May 06, 2014 4:02 am

Kappa
This should be the pic you're after.

Chienderace · Post by **Chienderace** » Tue May 06, 2014 4:15 am

2nd pic, Deep, Deep and dark.

Kappa · Post by **Kappa** » Tue May 06, 2014 4:54 am

That's the one. Thanks Ben.
Chienderace nice try, but you're as bad as the rest of us

Not so easy folks is it. So who said deep is a poorer version of cobalt.

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Tue May 06, 2014 5:44 am

molossus wrote:Kappa all three are Deeps.

that would not be a fair contest if we had no Cobalts

did Snake get it right in his 1st post

samb05 · Post by **samb05** » Tue May 06, 2014 5:59 am

2nd Pic Dark, Deep, Dark

willowisp71 · Post by **willowisp71** » Tue May 06, 2014 8:38 am

2nd pic L2R - deep, deep, dark?

willowisp71 · Post by **willowisp71** » Tue May 06, 2014 8:53 am

Oops, already said that's incorrect! hmmm, tricky.....

willowisp71 · Post by **willowisp71** » Tue May 06, 2014 8:58 am

It does seem that the bird on the right is different to the other two though ... Seems 'darker' than the other two through the back, so perhaps Dark, Dark, Deep? Or maybe I'm clutching at straws

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Tue May 06, 2014 12:47 pm

samb05 wrote:2nd Pic Dark, Deep, Dark

My guess too.

Carr.birds · Post by **Carr.birds** » Tue May 06, 2014 2:14 pm

2nd pic dark, deep and deep

Tienie

Traceyweller · Post by **Traceyweller** » Tue May 06, 2014 2:59 pm

2nd picture - dark deep dark

gattman · Post by **gattman** » Tue May 06, 2014 4:04 pm

Good guessing guys.
Hope you had a little fun in the process.

I must say that Ben got it right with his first guess with 2nd pic: Dark, Deep, Deep. Well Done.
And for those who couldn't get the 1st pic, they are Deep, Dark, Deep.

Cheers
Martin

Kappa · Post by **Kappa** » Tue May 06, 2014 4:06 pm

Definitely an eye opener.
Martin I think you have the two photos reversed. I posted them in the reverse order you sent them in. So photo 1 is dark, deep, deep. And photo 2 is deep, dark , deep. Correct me if I'm wrong, it happens a lot. Just ask the warden, I mean the wife

samb05 · Post by **samb05** » Tue May 06, 2014 6:10 pm

I have seen the half of the 2nd pic before on someones photobucket with the middle and the right bird pic was marked as Deepblue and Cobalt

Kappa · Post by **Kappa** » Wed May 07, 2014 1:57 am

Ben,
Do you know the history of this bird? Who originally bred this bird, and from what lines, and what is their take on it? Do they refer to it as a df deep or something else?

I also have a request to our SA counterparts, can anyone post some updated photos of their df Misty green. Thanks In advance.

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Wed May 07, 2014 2:24 am

Kappa,

Not sure,
My guess is that it is a DF? Green Deep from Jack Smith, his aviaries had the chicken wire setup & he used flash on some other pics i seen from him. and on green birds flash/night time does seem to make them look "rustier" in color even for normal greens.

Regarding Phenotype

I think we have come to a time when phenotype alone will not suffice more & more often.
Many mutations or combos will look alike & without genetical history a bird could be mistakenly IDed

From what i have seen Misty Violets, Deeps SA & OZ , Eu Cobalts will look almost identical within 90% proximity.
Combine any of the above and things get even more interesting

Priority IMO is to nail down Misty here in Oz once a 100% IDed misty through breeding,& is in the aviary we can make comparisons with all birds in the same shot as well as looking for minor markers that will tell between the mutations as minuscule as they might be.

Molossus has all of them

& Johan did show just how close their phenotype is, in another thread "SA perspective" i think.

madas · Post by **madas** » Wed May 07, 2014 2:30 am

Kappa wrote:Hi everyone,
A puzzle from Martin. Which are the deeps and which are the cobalts?

Easy one:

2nd pic
deep, dark, deep.

1st pic
dark, deep, deep.

madas · Post by **madas** » Wed May 07, 2014 2:37 am

Ups. Sorry.

Already resolved. Haven't seen.

An extract of the 2nd pic was posted by Willy some months (years???) ago labeled left deep right dark.
So all you have to do for the first pic is compare the tail feathers (mostly color and length).

madas

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Wed May 07, 2014 2:45 am

madas wrote:Ups. Sorry.

Already resolved. Haven't seen.

An extract of the 2nd pic was posted by Willy some months (years???) ago labeled left deep right dark.
So all you have to do for the first pic is compare the tail feathers (mostly color and length).

madas

I remember it.
Even if it was labeled so, i have hard time believing the first bird to be Deep Blue
I have not seen Deeps with black flights so maybe mislabeled!? at the time, which can easily happen when birds fly around

samb05 · Post by **samb05** » Wed May 07, 2014 3:24 am

It is the bird on the right that has been mislabeled. In this full pic it is a Deepblue and in willy crop pic its is a Cobalt

madas · Post by **madas** » Wed May 07, 2014 3:42 am

samb05 wrote:It is the bird on the right that has been mislabeled. In this full pic it is a Deepblue and in willy crop pic its is a Cobalt

Yeah that's how i remembered it. thx for clearing up.

madas · Post by **madas** » Wed May 07, 2014 3:44 am

Ring0Neck wrote: Deeps with black flights

Is your display broken?

Can't see a bird with black flights in the pics.

gattman · Post by **gattman** » Wed May 07, 2014 7:06 am

Hi everyone,

Let me assure you all that the colours are definitely as I stated earlier:
Pic 1: Deep, Dark, Deep
Pic 2: Dark, Deep Deep.

I did send Willy these pics 1 or 2 years ago and what he did with them I do not know, he may have mistakenly incorrectly labelled them.

The darker bird on the right in pic 2 is the first Deep Blue ever bred from the original Dark Greens, and subsequently the origin of all of your Deeps. His son is to the left of him in Pic 2 (middle bird).

There has been much discussion on the small variations in colour in Deeps and it is evident regardless of what State they are from or have been bred in. I think our biggest challenge is determining with certainty what colours our offspring are, if deeps are mixed with colors such as Cobalt. I have been faced with many questions in the last year or 2 from breeders which I have sold Deeps to, who have the dilemma of not knowing what colour their chicks are. Many have paired Deeps up with Cobalt (Darks) and bred Cobalt looking birds and are not sure if they are Deeps or Darks. They have also produced Deep Darks, and think they have bred a DF Deep. This concerns me, as prospective buyers may be misled by what they are purchasing, whether it be by ignorance or mistake of the breeder. It is much easier when you are breeding from Df birds as you have a level of certainty with what is produced, but it's hit and miss with SF birds as a nice dark looking Deep can be mistaken for a Dark, and a light Dark can be mistaken for a Deep. My pictures are and example of that, and I understand that lighting in photos do play a major role, but I have breeders have just as much difficulty picking these colours with certainty in the feather as well.

Any thoughts?

Carr.birds · Post by **Carr.birds** » Wed May 07, 2014 10:50 am

Carr.birds wrote:2nd pic dark, deep and deep

Tienie

Martin

I agree with you. It is easier in the 1st pic because I compare head colours. This is the same for the SA deep or Nico Theunissen violet. The brighter more luminous colour is deep.

1st pic deep, dark and deep

Tienie

Carr.birds · Post by **Carr.birds** » Wed May 07, 2014 11:09 am

Dark Blue Opaline

SA Deep Green Opaline

SA Deep Blue Opaline

Tienie

Kappa · Post by **Kappa** » Sun Jun 08, 2014 4:25 am

Hi everyone,
despite our busy schedules, i was able to catch up with Martin and take some photos of his sf and df deep blues. Some of the photos of the df deeps clearly show the variation that can exist in the deep mutation, even in df.

group of sf deep blues.

df deep blue compared to sf deep blue.

group of df deep blues.

colour variation in df deep blue. These cock birds are full brothers bred in the same season in seperate clutches.

turqoise df deep blue.

as you can see some of the df deep blues could almost be mistaken for violetblues.

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Sun Jun 08, 2014 7:43 pm

Great work Kappa & Martin, Thanks for taking the time to take these comparisson pics.
Indeed the variance in Deep's color is clearly visible in above pics.

If you have more pics of the SF Deeps by all means upload them ;)

Kappa · Post by **Kappa** » Mon Jun 09, 2014 12:15 am

Hi Ben,
What I did find interesting was how much the turquoise df deep blue hen reminded me of your avatar hen, with the deep electric blue flights and tail.

Kappa · Post by **Kappa** » Mon Jun 09, 2014 5:04 am

Here are a couple more for you Ben

sf deep blue.

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Mon Jun 09, 2014 6:13 am

Kappa wrote:Hi Ben,
What I did find interesting was how much the turquoise df deep blue hen reminded me of your avatar hen, with the deep electric blue flights and tail.

I know what you mean, she is s-thing special in my eyes and not yet certain of her full gen makeup esp from her mother's side (which i still have)

Kappa

Cheers ! for the extra pics.

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Mon Jun 09, 2014 6:16 am

Kappa wrote:colour variation in df deep blue. These cock birds are full brothers bred in the same season in seperate clutches.

Thanks for these, Kappa. What were the parents of these two birds? If there was a DF parent involved, did it share the phenotype of the top or bottom bird? My guess is the bottom bird.

Kappa · Post by **Kappa** » Mon Jun 09, 2014 3:26 pm

Johan,
The parents of the two df cocks were only sf deep blues. Martin is planning to set up a pairing for the first time where he will breed a df deep blue to a sf deep blue. It will be interesting to see what they produce, and wether or not there is colour variation in the offspring.

Another combination he wants to try down the track is breeding two df birds. I think it would be good if Martin can, in the future, match phenotypically similar looking df birds and see what the outcomes are.

Mikesringnecks · Post by **Mikesringnecks** » Mon Jun 09, 2014 6:43 pm

Hi Martin
Welcome belatedly to the forum and thank you so much for the excellently presented data on the Deeps. I only have the one that I got from Willy after he presented his proof in the Bird Keeper. I won't breed with her until 2015. She is a Deep TurquoiseBlue split Cleartail.
My interest was particularly sparked in this thread by the mention of a bright "avatar" bird. The Deep TurquoiseBlue split Cleartail Willy sent to me stands out in the aviary as a much brighter than other Turquoise mutations. I did mention this to Willy and, from memory, he was initially skeptical, but subsequently somewhat more inclined to think it might be so. Does your experience lead to a view that there is anything unusually bright about the Deep Turquoise combination?
Kind regards
Mike

Mikesringnecks · Post by **Mikesringnecks** » Mon Jun 09, 2014 8:08 pm

Hi Martin
One additional point and/or question. I have always thought of Dark Blue or Cobalt, as we insist on calling it, as a "dusty" colour in comparison say with Violet Blue. Do you see Deep Blue as having the same "dusty" characteristics as Dark Blue?
If it is not a "dusty" colour, that would explain why I think the bird Willy sent to me is unusually bright.
Kind regards
Mike

gattman · Post by **gattman** » Thu Jun 12, 2014 4:50 am

Hi Mike,
In my experience the Turquoise Deeps have brighter green colouration than the Turquoise Cobalt. I have several hens and they show similar characteristics in colour. Unfortunately I don't have any Turquoise Cobalts at the moment so I can't compare the two with some pics. What I have noticed is that the Turquoise Deeps that I have bred over the years seem to almost always have a touch darker blue flights and tail than their straight Deep siblings. The reason for this I am unable to explain, but seems to be more noticeable after the birds' first and second moults.
I think the Deeps still have that 'dusty' look over the blue, similar to what you described the Cobalt as having. Many times I have put Deeps in an aviary with Cobalts to work on picking the differences, and sometimes the task is easy, but sometimes not. This is how I first noticed the slight varying colour shades between the Deeps, as before that I had never really looked at them that closely.

I have sent Kappa a few photos of some Deeps, mostly single factored birds and some of my Turquoise, that I have asked him to post on my behalf so I hope you can compare your one to mine and see if they look the same.

Cheers
Martin

Kappa · Post by **Kappa** » Fri Jun 13, 2014 1:46 am

Hi Mike et al,

Here are some photos of deeps I'm posting on Martin's behalf.

parents of the df deep cocks that have the colour variation.

cheers,
Kappa

Mikesringnecks · Post by **Mikesringnecks** » Fri Jun 13, 2014 4:03 pm

Hi Martin
Thank you so much for the response, pity it wasn't the "dusty" issue but very interesting nonetheless. Like you, I haven't retained a Dark TurquoiseBlue but I did breed some and I have attached a couple of photos. However, this site doesn't like posting my photos, so they may not be attached. I think the problem relates to my resolution being too high but I don't really know why.
My focus is almost exclusively on cleartails but I do have a couple of pairs this season that are capable of producing Dark TurquoiseBlue Cleartails so, if it happens, I will keep one to compare with the Deep equivalent and with the Violet TurquoiseBlue Cleartails that I have been trying to get good tails into.
Thanks again and also for the photos that Kappa posted successfully.
Kind regards
Mike

Skyes_crew · Post by **Skyes_crew** » Fri Jun 13, 2014 11:21 pm

Lushen1600 wrote:Hi Kappa, thanks for the reply, I have a green hen, that I'm still trying to figure out what she is cos she doesn't look like a normal green, here is a pic of her right wing under UV light, tell me what you think

Thanks
Lushen

Lushen,

Just catching up on some threads and came across this one. I too have a green, a hen, that I can't figure out just yet. Here is her UV pic. She is 2 years old.

ErnieisAwesome · Post by **ErnieisAwesome** » Mon Jun 16, 2014 6:03 pm

My green baby . Not sure what type of green if any , just plain ole green ! I think he's gorgeous <3

Mikesringnecks · Post by **Mikesringnecks** » Mon Jun 16, 2014 9:28 pm

Hi ErnieisAwsome
It guess it could be camera, computer or lighting but that lovely green chick looks too dark to me to be a simple green bird. What were the parents?Kind regards
Mike

ErnieisAwesome · Post by **ErnieisAwesome** » Tue Jun 17, 2014 8:03 am

Mikesringnecks wrote:Hi ErnieisAwsome
It guess it could be camera, computer or lighting but that lovely green chick looks too dark to me to be a simple green bird. What were the parents?Kind regards
Mike

Nope , he's really that dark . I have zero information on the parents unfortunately . This bird was pretty much dumped on someone else when I rescued him. He's shades of green go from that dark dark green to a bright almost lime green near the head. So your guess is I'm sure much better than mine. I would like to figure out what type of bird he is is and more about his flock etc. So any and all help would be great ! Ill take a a new photo of him tonight for you so you can see his wings as of today . I just knew he was special !! =) You just made my day !

ErnieisAwesome · Post by **ErnieisAwesome** » Tue Jun 17, 2014 9:19 am

molossus wrote:looking at the overall shades from head to tail...I'd say you have a normal green irn, Ernie...special all the same.

Thank you ! He's pretty special to me ! It's funny I hardly ever see the just regular greens ones anymore !

Mikesringnecks · Post by **Mikesringnecks** » Tue Jun 17, 2014 5:07 pm

Hi ErnieisAwsome
Molossus knows what he is talking about and is therefore probably correct looking at the photo above . I only have one green, a rising one year old split opaline but the single opaline gene should not affect the colour. I have tried to attach library photos of him but if it doesn't work you will have to E-mail me direct and I will send them direct to you.
Kind regards
Mike

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Wed Jun 18, 2014 12:45 am

Mikesringnecks wrote:Hi ErnieisAwsome
Molossus knows what he is talking about and is therefore probably correct looking at the photo above . I only have one green, a rising one year old split opaline but the single opaline gene should not affect the colour. I have tried to attach library photos of him but if it doesn't work you will have to E-mail me direct and I will send them direct to you.
Kind regards
Mike

Hi Mike, I have found the underlined above not to be 100% true for split males out of very well marked opaline lines, and I'm fairly sure your bird will qualify too.

Mikesringnecks · Post by **Mikesringnecks** » Wed Jun 18, 2014 12:55 am

Hi Johan
Is that what the very dark beak is about? I did ask the breeder (Paul COURT) about that and a couple of dark feathers on each shoulder but he couldn't shed any light on it other than to tell me that both parents came from JS.
Kind regards
Mike

Indian Ringneck Vic · Post by **Indian Ringneck Vic** » Wed Jun 18, 2014 1:10 am

Mike what are you saying? is this a normal green or not if it is not what are you saying it is?

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Wed Jun 18, 2014 2:01 am

Mikesringnecks wrote:Hi Johan
Is that what the very dark beak is about? I did ask the breeder (Paul COURT) about that and a couple of dark feathers on each shoulder but he couldn't shed any light on it other than to tell me that both parents came from JS.
Kind regards
Mike

Hi Mike, no not the dark beak. The heterozygous opaline male often shows the typical opaline features, but not as well as the homozygous bird. So, one can often see a slightly dilution in the region on the back of the bird below where the neck ring will form (which begins to create the typical opaline head/body contrast) , and a slightly diluted tail too.

bennjamin · Post by **bennjamin** » Sun Jun 22, 2014 5:44 am

Would you Johan,....or anyone have an example pic of a visual split (heterozygous) cock opaline in any colour that shows where the single gene is expressing visual characteristics.

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Sun Jun 22, 2014 2:29 pm

Benjamin, not the easiest challenge you could set. It is not simple to capture with a camera. These are the two best examples I have. Tell me what you see, and I'll tell you what I see.

Skyes_crew · Post by **Skyes_crew** » Sun Jun 22, 2014 2:40 pm

Can I join in this one. I want to test myself.

In pic 1 I see a slight lightening if the tail and flights and a slight darkening of the head. Light feet?

Pic 2 is a bit more challenging, and the only thing I can pick out is the scalloping effect across the back.

Coastal-Birds · Post by **Coastal-Birds** » Sun Jun 22, 2014 5:12 pm

Hello Strangers and Ring0neck

The topic on Deeps interests me and i have 1 question on my mind and that being,
What happens when deep and European cobalts are mixed together? The young would have to be both phenotypes?
If this is true this may be the cause of the different shades they are being produced in.

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Sun Jun 22, 2014 6:51 pm

Hi Todd WB , Long time...

I stand to be corrected but i've been told Martin did not pair Dark to Deep, therefore it should carry no Dark in its gen makeup.

Coastal-Birds · Post by **Coastal-Birds** » Sun Jun 22, 2014 7:09 pm

Hi Ben ,yes long long time since i have been here.
My question as to if european cobalt and deeps are combined together is then does the offspring then carry both mutations.
I think this is possible as i have seen some interesting photos from so called deeps and the young are all not that grey bird covered in the blue sheen as the DF deep looks. Some are alot greyer but also have the blue sheen but not as strong on them but alot darker than a european mauve bird.Im interested in whether anyone else has bred birds like this and if from 2 so called deeps with background knowledge they are the real deeps and not a mix of euro cobalt and oz cobalts.

Indian Ringneck Vic · Post by **Indian Ringneck Vic** » Sun Jun 22, 2014 10:47 pm

Coastal I don't have any Aussie Cobalts I do however have a family of European Cobalts from Bob Willis which I have been line breeding with Indigo for 8 years and have found these birds to produce the unexpected last year in a clutch of 3 there were 2 grey mauves and one very dark grey mauve that the digital camera see's a blue mauve that I would describe along the line of the bird in Bastiaan 's 2nd book page 69 only my bird is a lot darker a friend of mine from NSW produced a mauve from a brother to my line cock back to a Willis Cobalt and produced similar to Bastiaan's illustrated mauve on page 69 I have also aquired a European Mauve from a different line to Willis which is a grey bird I beleive these different families to be carrying modifier genes that may prove Terry Martins speculation all those years ago that homozygous Cobalt to be Grey to be incomplete as I beleive this Dark mutation is still evolving as to the question of Deep I'm not convinced it exists and are yet to reconize any difference between any Deep and Dark as the Aussie Cobalt does not produce these dark phenotypes when kept as an isolated mutation then once dark is introduced to the program you can only guess as to what is influenceing the outcomes

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Mon Jun 23, 2014 1:50 am

Skyes_crew wrote:Can I join in this one. I want to test myself.

In pic 1 I see a slight lightening if the tail and flights and a slight darkening of the head. Light feet?

Pic 2 is a bit more challenging, and the only thing I can pick out is the scalloping effect across the back.

Pic 2 is more difficult. I have the advantage of having seen this bird next to a normal cobalt turqblue. The cobalt shade is a touch lighter on the back and coverts, but only a touch. Have a close look at the region where the chest meets the neck ring region.

Ring0Neck · Post by **Ring0Neck** » Mon Jun 23, 2014 1:58 am

Johan S wrote:... Tell me what you see, and I'll tell you what I see.

Any chance it could be Homoz. Opaline Misty/Slaty or khaki?

Looks like a visual opaline but all markers reduced to only 30% or less visual manifestation

Skyes_crew · Post by **Skyes_crew** » Mon Jun 23, 2014 2:08 am

Johan S wrote:
Skyes_crew wrote:Can I join in this one. I want to test myself.

In pic 1 I see a slight lightening if the tail and flights and a slight darkening of the head. Light feet?

Pic 2 is a bit more challenging, and the only thing I can pick out is the scalloping effect across the back.
Pic 2 is more difficult. I have the advantage of having seen this bird next to a normal cobalt turqblue. The cobalt shade is a touch lighter on the back and coverts, but only a touch. Have a close look at the region where the chest meets the neck ring region.

If you hadn't pointed it out, I would have never seen it. Slight separation of dark and light with a white band. It's a beautiful bird. Yours?

bennjamin · Post by **bennjamin** » Mon Jun 23, 2014 3:13 am

Johan S wrote:Benjamin, not the easiest challenge you could set. It is not simple to capture with a camera. These are the two best examples I have. Tell me what you see, and I'll tell you what I see.

Johan, On the birds you posted, the first area I looked was the neck ring line to body colour difference. I also see a strong colour neckring line even on yearling cocks, which looks to be present in both birds you posted. The other is a slight dilation of body colour but with a flourecence that they show. I have no cobalt but have violet turq that show a very noticeable strong flourecence and lime highlights to the turq, In visual HT 2 year cocks there is no doubt they are opaline carriers right from their first moult imo.

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Mon Jun 23, 2014 3:24 am

Ring0Neck wrote:Any chance it could be Homoz. Opaline Misty/Slaty or khaki?
Looks like a visual opaline but all markers reduced to only 30% or less visual manifestation

Hi Ben, I'm 99% sure those factors don't come into play. The haziness is simply because I didn't set the camera settings properly. The bird was bred from a turqblue opaline male to a normal hen. No misty involved with him. My first reaction to this bird was much like what you say: all the markers are there, but very poorly defined. I didn't know at the time what the parentage were, so I made a statement that the bird is a very poor opaline. Of course I ended up with my foot in my mouth when the owner told me it isn't an opaline, but a split. The bird went from worst opaline to best split in the blink of an eye.

It was actually this very bird that made me start pay closer attention to split opalines.

Skyes_crew wrote:If you hadn't pointed it out, I would have never seen it. Slight separation of dark and light with a white band. It's a beautiful bird. Yours?

I don't believe you. You simply weren't sufficiently motivated.

My bird? Not any more.

bennjamin wrote:Johan, On the birds you posted, the first area I looked was the neck ring line to body colour difference. I also see a strong colour neckring line even on yearling cocks, which looks to be present in both birds you posted. The other is a slight dilation of body colour but with a flourecence that they show. I have no cobalt but have violet turq that show a very noticeable strong flourecence and lime highlights to the turq, In visual HT 2 year cocks there is no doubt they are opaline carriers right from their first moult imo.

Benjamin, you are looking at all the right things in my opinion. You've noticed that difference in the neck ring line compared to a similar bird not carrying opaline, and the slight dilution, which are the things standing out for me too. Just one correction, the bottom bird is only 3 months old, busy with his first moult. The same characteristics, bar the light black feathers, are present the day they fledge. The top bird you have right, what you see there is the 15 month (second summer) moult.

And of course, this raises the age old question: how recessive is recessive enough to truly be recessive?

And in general, make no mistake, the above isn't visible in every single /opaline cock. The good news for my Ozzie mates, however, is that, based on pics of Oz opalines I've seen, you have some pretty good opaline genes that side. And in my humble opinion, you have a decent chance of picking up these traits in splits.

Coastal-Birds · Post by **Coastal-Birds** » Tue Jun 24, 2014 6:29 pm

Hi Johan S
Im interested in the Opaline split cocks you have posted.
I myself believe that a Opaline split does in fact look quiet different to the same coloured bird that is not split.
Many true splits i have seen in person show the bird to be lighter(brighter) and also some seem to have the scolloping effect on the shoulders.
What do you think of this cock bird as for being split to Opaline,hes rising 2yrs old so will be breeding with him soon here.

Molossus2 · Post by **Molossus2** » Tue Jun 24, 2014 10:09 pm

Benjamin post a pic of the bib(front).

Kappa · Post by **Kappa** » Wed Jun 25, 2014 4:30 am

Hi everyone,
I have been reading some old threads and come across some which discussed a lighter strain of violet, which looks more like a cobalt. I also found some photos of an American violet in sf and df, and what stood out for me was how similar they were to sf and df deep. This got me thinking, and the questions that I asked myself was, could the deep actually be a violet variant? Could it be our version of a lighter strain of violet also?

I suppose what needs to be established is, genetically, is the deep more closely related to violet or cobalt. That same statement could also be put forward to the American violet or any other lighter strain of violet which looks cobalt. Thoughts?

Any photos of a sf American violet would be greatly appreciated, some have been deleted from the old threads.

df American violet.

Johan S · Post by **Johan S** » Wed Jun 25, 2014 5:09 am

Kappa, from an SA perspective, our light strain of violet, which we locally refer to as NT violet (Nico Theunissen) violet has, in the last few years, started going through a transformation where some consider it to be the same as the Aus deep mutation. As for the "American" violet, that bird is significantly darker than the NT violet (aka "SA deep"), but also darker than the Euro cobalt and also a local SA cobalt strain that seems to be a bit darker than the Euro cobalt. Both strains produce mauve as DF, even when mixed, so it is variation most likely. The SF/DF American violet looks very very very similar, which is what made a lot of people initially think that violet is a complete/fully dominant mutation like grey. However, we've also seen violets where there is a significant enough difference in SF/DF. The interesting thing is this: when asked which is darker, the cobalt or violet, you will find that the answer varies and depends on where you are. Willy, for example, at one stage stated that cobalt is darker than violet. That isn't the case with our birds. Violet is significantly darker over here than even the SA variation of cobalt. However, the NT violet/"SA deep" is slightly less dark and a cleaner colour than a cobalt. And now that it has come to the foreground that deep shows a lot of variation, the NT violet could most certainly turn out to be deep... Or not. Time will tell.

As far as I know, Willy has shown that violet and deep, at least, aren't alleles, and a friend of his (think it was Ron) has shown the same for dark and deep.

PS: Unfortunately, I don't see opaline features in the bird above. That doesn't mean anything though. It isn't always obvious and it is very hard to photograph what the eye really sees.

Mikesringnecks · Post by **Mikesringnecks** » Wed Jun 25, 2014 4:00 pm

Hi Kappa
As I recall the story, when Willy sent Deep feathers to Mutavi for microscopic analysis the response was "no different to Cobalt". If the feathers were actually analyzed, that result would mitigate against the violet variant theory. The breeding results also work against the violet variant proposition.
Of very recent interest in Australia, in the last few days, has been a couple of Deep owners stating that the the gene acts as a "colour enhancer" rather than as a simple darkening factor like Dark (European Cobalt). That was something I did ask Willy about when I got my one and only Deep TurquoiseBlue from him. However, at the time, he said that Deep was the same sort of "dusty" blue as European Cobalt not "brighter" like I thought it was in my single example.
Kind regards
mike

Indian Ringneck Vic · Post by **Indian Ringneck Vic** » Wed Jun 25, 2014 4:10 pm

Kappa I think your drawing closer to the answer of this recently proclaimed Deep than what you probably realise I own a light Violet hen similar to the cock in the photo you posted and have been breeding from it over the last 6 or 7 seasons and I have recently had contact with a Qld breeder whom has also been working with these birds and the overall results are encouraging. The birds we are working with are from American Violets and these birds date back to when these birds were fetching big money and were produced to the dismay of the breeders who viewed them at that time as a threat to their hefty investments.

Skyes_crew · Post by **Skyes_crew** » Wed Jun 25, 2014 4:26 pm

Paul...I would be interested to see your light violet hen. I have a first generation violet hen from the original violets produced here in America. But an interesting thing happened to the color of the offspring over the years when combined with a certain blue line we have in Hawaii.

ErnieisAwesome · Post by **ErnieisAwesome** » Wed Jun 25, 2014 6:51 pm

: 10307201_927165090642402_5688898496985280809_n.jpg (63.07 KiB) Viewed 5312 times

Mikesringnecks wrote:Hi ErnieisAwsome
Molossus knows what he is talking about and is therefore probably correct looking at the photo above . I only have one green, a rising one year old split opaline but the single opaline gene should not affect the colour. I have tried to attach library photos of him but if it doesn't work you will have to E-mail me direct and I will send them direct to you.
Kind regards
Mike

Thats cool . Ernie is getting bigger and hes the cutest little green bird ever !!

ErnieisAwesome · Post by **ErnieisAwesome** » Wed Jun 25, 2014 6:53 pm

Kappa wrote:Hi everyone,
I have been reading some old threads and come across some which discussed a lighter strain of violet, which looks more like a cobalt. I also found some photos of an American violet in sf and df, and what stood out for me was how similar they were to sf and df deep. This got me thinking, and the questions that I asked myself was, could the deep actually be a violet variant? Could it be our version of a lighter strain of violet also?

I suppose what needs to be established is, genetically, is the deep more closely related to violet or cobalt. That same statement could also be put forward to the American violet or any other lighter strain of violet which looks cobalt. Thoughts?

Any photos of a sf American violet would be greatly appreciated, some have been deleted from the old threads.

df American violet.

Gorgeous bird ! I love that deep deep purple . I never see those here in NY . Alot of turquoise & lutino .

Kappa · Post by **Kappa** » Wed Jun 25, 2014 7:39 pm

Hi everyone,
Thanks for all your responses.
Johan, thanks for the additional details. I still feel that the deep still has a few surprises in-store for us. I also am of the opinion that violet is a darker mutation in comparison to dark. Not only visually, but also by the amount of influence/ expression it has over other mutations.

Mike , I can see how one would describe deep as a colour enhancer, it seems to take them to another level.
Paul, I agree, there is more to the deep than meets the eye, and much more to learn before we have an accurate picture of where it fits in the scheme of things. I feel that it fits in between violet and cobalt, but with the ability to shift either way of the violet to cobalt colour spectrum, depending on its relationship with the other mutation it is being combined with, thereby having the ability to express its self in many ways. I don't know if that makes sense, but it's what I have noticed.

Mel, would.it's be possible to post photos of these different blues and violets you speak of.
Cheers.

Indian Ringneck Vic · Post by **Indian Ringneck Vic** » Wed Jun 25, 2014 8:22 pm

Melissa here is my American Violet hen now rising 8 years old this hen produces good quality Violet blues when paired to Violet blue cocks , Blue cocks, she has also been mated to a Indigo Cobalt cock (dark) where 3 Indigo violets and 1 Indigo Cobalt were produced , she has also been mated to to Sf edged violet green cock where they produced very dark Violet Blue and edged Violet green that showed a lot of violet suffusion in the wing coverts.

The Indigo Cobalt produced from this hen is very grey looking and over 2 seasons of being mated back to Indigo Cobalt (7 young ) there has been Indigo Mauve ,Indigo Cobalt (same as mother) , Indigo Blue.

Skyes_crew · Post by **Skyes_crew** » Wed Jun 25, 2014 8:38 pm

Paul, beautiful Hen. Looks a lot like mine. I keep thinking it may be the last season for my hen because she's just turned 14...and she keeps on surprising me

I have plenty of her offspring, though none are the same as the original. I hope to pair one of her great grandsons to an indigo next year. I can't wait to see the results.

Kappa, birds are all in full moult. I'm collecting tail feathers, and I will get photos to compare the blues and violet very shortly. I've had a tough year identifying some stuff in my nests, but I think I'm getting closer to an answer. I don't want to post pics until I can get them all in a group photo. I will post photos though.